Hello from the UK; brief intro

[Nightwish]

Paranoia is way better than gullibility!

Anyhow, this was all progressing nicely.  She volunteered her mobile number and I have spoken to her briefly.  We correspond daily and I was looking forward to telling you guys of my intended visit to Russia to meet her in November. I have photos of her with her mother and with her sister.  None appear on the internet (indeed she has no trace at all).

Then out of the blue today she says she can get thirty days off work and thinks she can travel here to meet me in the UK. (I reply, no, most likely she can't).

So having concluded she is genuine, my alarm bells are ringing again.  Other potential flags are:

- still only one email from her daily, regular as clockwork
- whilst she responds to most questions in the previous email, I have no sense that our earlier correspondence registers with her.  The book we were supposed both to be reading has never been mentioned again
- my requests for a particular (decent) photo of her have all been ignored
- my query about her wedding ring in her photos (from a husband who apparently left her five years ago for another woman, leading to divorce) were dismissed with a comment about how it means nothing and she just likes wearing rings. How credible is this in Russia?

So now I am back in paranoid mode awaiting the request for funding for her planned thirty-day visit to see me.  This change of plan shouts 'scam' to me.  In which case I can only warn readers of this forum that some of these scammers are a lot more convincing and sophisticated than you'd think from reading some of the anti-scam advice around on the internet.

Everything about this shouts: scam (same method that I seen a few times) 'I will come to you..'............ "but finance......"
 
I really do think I am right - but I reserve the right to be wrong.

And I say, if you have the time and energy to keep this going, do it.. or spend your time and energy on someone that is more certain to be genuine.
I can recommend cuteonly.com for a good site, Elenas..have no experience, but seems to lacking in popularity.
or if you have the spidey sense - fdating that is free, but also have a lot of gold-diggers and scammers of course for that very reason.  And all women are swamped with messages from men - 99% only looking for a good time and sexy pics if I am to believe Tanya   (she got 800 men messaging her in the first 2 days - ~700 of them wanted a naked pic or camsex, and many wanted to pay for it)  She told me her password and asked me to read the messages.. even I said YIKES

[Mappy]

@nightwish, yes and yes.

I was on my guard from the beginning, despite a very attractive pitch and a never ending stream of decent but engaging photos.  Her mother and sister both appear genuine (from likeness), yet none of the photos are on the internet already.

She told me most men ask for indecent photos in their second or third email, whereas she liked me because I didn't and seemed genuine.  Which of course I am . Sadly it looks 90% likely that she is not.  Makes me wonder who is on the other end of the phone.

Apart from the background clues, the clincher from me was, when I first said I was willing to travel to Russia to meet her, there was no happy response at all...a few emails later she thinks she is able to come here.  Any genuine woman should have been overjoyed that I was willing to make the trip, surely.

Anyhow I will update this thread if only for the potential warning it will give to those who follow in my footsteps.

A real shame, as both her emails and her photos were truly engaging.

[Nightwish]

@nightwish, yes and yes.

I was on my guard from the beginning, despite a very attractive pitch and a never ending stream of decent but engaging photos.  Her mother and sister both appear genuine (from likeness), yet none of the photos are on the internet already.

She told me most men ask for indecent photos in their second or third email, whereas she liked me because I didn't and seemed genuine.  Which of course I am . Sadly it looks 90% likely that she is not.  Makes me wonder who is on the other end of the phone.

Anyhow I will update this thread if only for the potential warning it will give to those who follow in my footsteps.

A real shame, as both her emails and her photos were truly engaging.

The phonecalls, how are they, interactive or just short "hello, nice to hear your voice and goodbye"
I mean if you have her phone, call her often, get a priceplan on viber or skype and make daily attempts when you "know" she is at home.. she should be thrilled to talk to you, if not - walk slowly in the other direction... > better genuine women

[jone]

The phonecalls, how are they, interactive or just short "hello, nice to hear your voice and goodbye"
I mean if you have her phone, call her often, get a priceplan on viber or skype and make daily attempts when you "know" she is at home.. she should be thrilled to talk to you, if not - walk slowly in the other direction... > better genuine women

Better yet, RUN LIKE HELL!

He's already given enough information that the scam meter has pegged.  But, if he was really intrigued by this woman, the OP should make an effort to reach out to some real Russian / Ukrainian  women.

[Mappy]

BTW Beware of Elena's.  I just registered for free, just to have a sniff around, and within minutes started receiving spam email from credit card companies and other dating sites, to an email I have only used for corresponding with my friend *Boris* and registering on here.  First spam the address has ever received.  A site that instantly auto-sells on email addresses isn't to be trusted, IMO.

p.s. For fun, check out 'Crazy Russian Dad' on YouTube.  He deserves a bigger following.

[BillyB]

I will play the thing out to see how it ends.  The experience will hopefully be useful for new readers of the forum.

Make sure you dedicate enough time for the sincere women. If you posted the first few letters she sent you, some of us could tell if she is a scammer. Scammers write a certain way. Sincere women write a certain way. Men who understand how sincere women talk are less likely to waste time exchanging love letters with scammers.

[Mappy]

Hi Billy, I am in no doubt now; I have been sceptical from the start, as you can see from the thread, and there are now too many small clues that don't add up.  Once I stand back from the correspondence (which is the hard bit) it's all fairly obvious.

When it started I had nothing to compare the correspondence with, and given the language issue it didn't seem unreasonable. A fair few of the more unusual phrases I ran through Google but never came up with any hits.  Nor with the photos.  FYI this was the beginning; later emails were more personal and tailored to what I had sent back:

It will be interesting for me to communicate with you, and to know you.

In fact, this is my first experience of Internet correspondence. I'm a little worried…
So, my name is Anna. I am 44 years old. I work as a florist decorator.
I live in Russia. And I think that distance will not be a problem for communication.
We can communicate and get to know each other.

I looked at your profile and it seems to me that you are an interesting and good man.
What you are looking for a dating site?
I'm divorced and have been alone for a long time, and so I want to establish my personal life
I am looking only for a serious and long-term relationship.

To the letter, I attached my photos. I hope you like my photos
Tell me about yourself. I'll be glad to receive your next letter.
Best wishes Anna"

I have been very cagey with personal information by way of return; indeed one of the flags is that any questions of *hers* that I just ignored were never asked again.  So I don't feel too compromised, and the whole thing has been an interesting learning experience.  I even know a few phrases of Russian now!

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond with your advice . The wider point for everyone is that some of the bigger 'red flags' set out here (scammer score card) and elsewhere for spotting scammers (phrases you can find on the net, not replying to questions, age difference, early declarations of love, revealing photos, etc.) didn't apply in my case - they are clearly getting more sophisticated and putting more effort into individual correspondence.

[BillyB]

In fact, this is my first experience of Internet correspondence. I'm a little worried…

I wouldn't have put much effort into a girl who wrote that, which was her second sentence in the first letter.


Write a bunch of ladies and hopefully you'll find one thrilled to hear your voice on the phone or Skype on a regular basis. The more ladies you write to, the higher your chances of finding a good match.

[Mappy]

That sentence was actually a response to something I had said in my first contact.  But anyhow, hindsight and knowledge are wonderful things.  As is living and learning....

[kynrazor]

Anyhow, this was all progressing nicely.  She volunteered her mobile number and I have spoken to her briefly.  We correspond daily and I was looking forward to telling you guys of my intended visit to Russia to meet her in November. I have photos of her with her mother and with her sister.  None appear on the internet (indeed she has no trace at all).

  Good! Keep talking on the "phone" and you will eventually find out whether her voice and the conversation itself tells you she is genuine in her interest.

Then out of the blue today she says she can get thirty days off work and thinks she can travel here to meet me in the UK. (I reply, no, most likely she can't).

Perhaps a red flag but we won't know for sure till she starts asking for money. Ten Commandments still applies. NEVER EVER SEND MONEY and you will be fine.

So having concluded she is genuine, my alarm bells are ringing again.  Other potential flags are:

- still only one email from her daily, regular as clockwork
- whilst she responds to most questions in the previous email, I have no sense that our earlier correspondence registers with her.  The book we were supposed both to be reading has never been mentioned again
- my requests for a particular (decent) photo of her have all been ignored
- my query about her wedding ring in her photos (from a husband who apparently left her five years ago for another woman, leading to divorce) were dismissed with a comment about how it means nothing and she just likes wearing rings. How credible is this in Russia?

Try to probe her and question her more about the book then. Wedding ring if worn on the left hand usually doesn't conclusively mean much to be honest and her excuse about the wedding rings though not convincing, doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Just keep on speaking to her. What do you have to lose? Only time (and maybe some feelings) I suppose and so long as you never send her money, what else is there to lose?

All the best in your journey mate

[jone]

Kyn,

I hate to break it to you, but in Eastern Europe, wedding rings are worn on the right hand.

[kynrazor]

I hate to break it to you, but in Eastern Europe, wedding rings are worn on the right hand.

Indeed, that's why I specifically mentioned "if worn on the left hand it doesn't mean much".  I think it's good that the OP is thinking this through logically, so either way, he should be fine.

[LAman]

My goodness, a scammer????? Where exactly is the scam? Oh, she's GOING to ask for money!!!!  So a cop can pull you over and give you a ticket because you're 'GOING' to speed!! This is bordering on paranoia, analyzing every word...meaning, context. Any way to just play it out and see what happens? Who knows what is really happening here.
Unfortunately this board likes to call each and every situation a scam and "Boris' is always on the other end. Trust your own judgment on what is happening......as long as you don't send any $$, be honest, what's the harm?

If I would have followed what is spoken here I would have missed out on a few ladies.....ie no smart phones, no computer, some travel expenses, meet for vacation. Yep, "Boris" looked awfully sweet!!!!

[Mappy]

Come on guys, give me some credit, I said I would play it out, and I never was going to send any money.  I'll be fine.

Fact remains, a daily email every afternoon isn't the way ordinary people communicate.  She gets a photo of me in my kitchen and I get the stock compliments but she never says anything about the kitchen or asks what I was making?  My requests for a photo of her waving at me were dodged?  An email with a little Russian in it and she didn't mention it?  I say I will come to Russia, she wasn't even pleased?  And the ring is on the right hand.  Really?

I am now in the situation where someone I have never met and who has never before left her country wants to fly here and stay with me for a whole thirty days, ignoring my offer of getting to know each other for a few days in a Russian city. Yeah, right.

[kynrazor]

I am now in the situation where someone I have never met and who has never before left her country wants to fly here and stay with me for a whole thirty days, ignoring my offer of getting to know each other for a few days in a Russian city. Yeah, right.

I'm sure sooner or later, any true intentions will inevitably be revealed if it hasn't already (a scammer will want his/her money/gifts etc at some point). For what it's worth, when I told my FSU lass I was going to visit her, she only mentioned "Great that you are coming )" and that was it. In the meantime, just take it easy, and do keep us posted.

[Mappy]

I will do :-)

At least her boss is on our side...the way he called a workplace meeting, the very day after we started talking about meeting up, and announced that the new holiday schedule gave her thirty days' holiday in November was truly miraculous good luck ;-)

[Davo]

Everything about this shouts: scam (same method that I seen a few times) 'I will come to you..'............ "but finance......"
 
I really do think I am right - but I reserve the right to be wrong.

And I say, if you have the time and energy to keep this going, do it.. or spend your time and energy on someone that is more certain to be genuine.
I can recommend cuteonly.com for a good site, Elenas..have no experience, but seems to lacking in popularity.
or if you have the spidey sense - fdating that is free, but also have a lot of gold-diggers and scammers of course for that very reason.  And all women are swamped with messages from men - 99% only looking for a good time and sexy pics if I am to believe Tanya   (she got 800 men messaging her in the first 2 days - ~700 of them wanted a naked pic or camsex, and many wanted to pay for it)  She told me her password and asked me to read the messages.. even I said YIKES

The woman I'm talking to and her best friend,  also had this issue on fdating, but it made it easier for genuine guys to have meaningful, open conversations and stand out from the guys trying to hook up. I get the impression her age and children prevented any genuine guys contacting her.  It's obviously not only the men looking for this. An Italian guy messaged me asking if I'd seen his girlfriend  Maria.... Poor guy, I've been in that boat before!!

[BillyB]

My requests for a photo of her waving at me were dodged? 

Never ask a woman for evidence she is real. If you find a good girl, you will insult her. When communicating with the ladies, share photos of yourself and even your family. Share your life with the women and if they're interested in you, they will respond with sharing their lives with you. Some women may not like to share photos to just any guy due to the large amount of requests from keyboard Romeos they get but after sharing photos with them, you can hint "It would be nice to see more of you and your life." If they make an effort to make you happy, proceed, if not, move on till you find a woman that will make you happy.

[jone]

Never ask a woman for evidence she is real. If you find a good girl, you will insult her. When communicating with the ladies, share photos of yourself and even your family. Share your life with the women and if they're interested in you, they will respond with sharing their lives with you. Some women may not like to share photos to just any guy due to the large amount of requests from keyboard Romeos they get but after sharing photos with them, you can hint "It would be nice to see more of you and your life." If they make an effort to make you happy, proceed, if not, move on till you find a woman that will make you happy.

Right.  He's been talking to her for a month or two and he asks her for a picture of her waving to him.  I'd do it in a heartbeat.  I had one gal who said she liked me.  I told her that I had never seen her on Skype (well, Viber).  She said she didn't do video calls but because she liked me, she consented.  We had a very nice visit.   

My opinions on Billy aside, I believe he is wrong with such advice.  However, he is on point that if a woman does not make you happy, you should move on.  Life is too short to waste it on negative people. 

It is time for everyone to get behind the idea that our OP is not talking to any single woman, but a bevy of agency employees operating a profile.  He knows it.  He gives evidence.  Don't shoot down his evidence as his instincts are right on. 

The ultimate advice that I can give is that you're no spring chicken.  Don't waste your time writing to some profile that is trying to milk you for money.  Put your time into meeting real women.  You have no obligation to proving to this forum that the woman is a fake.  We know she is.  Enjoy your life and move forward.

[LAman]

Right.  He's been talking to her for a month or two and he asks her for a picture of her waving to him.  I'd do it in a heartbeat.  I had one gal who said she liked me.  I told her that I had never seen her on Skype (well, Viber).  She said she didn't do video calls but because she liked me, she consented.  We had a very nice visit.   

My opinions on Billy aside, I believe he is wrong with such advice.  However, he is on point that if a woman does not make you happy, you should move on.  Life is too short to waste it on negative people. 

It is time for everyone to get behind the idea that our OP is not talking to any single woman, but a bevy of agency employees operating a profile.  He knows it.  He gives evidence.  Don't shoot down his evidence as his instincts are right on. 

The ultimate advice that I can give is that you're no spring chicken.  Don't waste your time writing to some profile that is trying to milk you for money.  Put your time into meeting real women.  You have no obligation to proving to this forum that the woman is a fake.  We know she is.  Enjoy your life and move forward.

Dog and pony show, right???
Why not just ask for a photo of a newspaper showing date as proof of girl???
Asking for someone doing something particular(as in waving) shows mistrust. Why not just look for another girl you trust more??

Jone you have your opinion, I don't know if it is right or not, we may never know but one thing I do know, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, difference is some have bigger ones!!! ))

[Mappy]

@jone I think you are on the money.  I am starting to explore other options, but responding to one email a day isn't wearing me out (despite my advanced years ;-) and I am as curious as you probably are to see how this will end.

Today's email was a long heartfelt explanation as to why she needs and wants to see my life and meet my family; she won't get another holiday until next year and can't wait that long.  Which is all fine until you consider that she is offering to fly for the first time and leave her country for the first time to spend a month with a stranger she has never met, nor even asked for any proof that I am real or genuine.

I replied to  say that I didn't think it would be possible but if she can arrange it I would be delighted to do what I can to help, and to look after her, and meet her costs when she arrives, but in no circumstances in advance.  Of course, despite her having a phone and Internet at home and it being the weekend, I won't hear anything more until tomorrow afternoon, as usual.....

Just to concentrate the mind I happened to mention that I know a fair few British politicians and police officers (true) and even they couldn't help arrange a visa for her if she didn't meet the rules, as things don't work like that in the UK.

[BillyB]

Right.  He's been talking to her for a month or two and he asks her for a picture of her waving to him.  I'd do it in a heartbeat.

A guy should figure out if he was writing to a real and sincere person way before a month or two. Most girls aren't dumb. After two months communication and you ask the girl for a photo of her waving, or holding three fingers up, holding a sign saying "hello (insert name) or holding today's newspaper up in her hands, she understands you're not capable of distinguishing reality from fantasy. She'll end up choosing a man who is wise enough to figure things out without those tactics.

[Mappy]

Yes, Billy, I think I did.  And I didn't ask for it as 'proof', nor push the idea, just suggested it would be nice to have a photo of her waving at me without her wedding ring on (since she seemed to be wearing it in all her photos), then mentioned it again when she ignored me.  Which she did again.

I don't think we need trouble Columbo for this one.  As my introduction to the FSUW world I just want to see how the story ends, whilst I explore what paths might be more fruitful.

On the basis that its not genuine, the takeaway for forum readers is that they are prepared to put a lot more effort into responding to WM personally and individually than was the case when the online anti-scam advice was written, much going on ten years back.

[BillyB]

I didn't ask for it as 'proof', nor push the idea, just suggested it would be nice to have a photo of her waving at me without her wedding ring on (since she seemed to be wearing it in all her photos), then mentioned it again when she ignored me.  Which she did again.

I think most normal girls would ignore your request, not just the scammers. If a girl doesn't respond to your first request, don't assume she has comprehension problems. She's probably ignoring your request to pose in certain positions because she doesn't like the unusual request. Asking twice after being rejected once, will significantly decrease your chances with a sincere woman. She will think you have comprehension problems.


When a girl likes you, she will volunteer photos of herself eventually. She may share with you photos of a place she just visited or bikini photos of herself at the beach. If you're both on video Skype often, she wouldn't need to supply any photos. There are many ways to figure out if a girl is real and if she's into you without oddball requests.

[Mappy]

You're not wrong, Billy, but your advice doesn't really hit the mark.  The thing with flags is that any one thing can be a misunderstanding or miscommunication, but when you have a collection of them it's time to engage brain.  Which is hopefully where I am at.