Does a RW need to speak good English, I think not.

[David1963]

I wanted to start a thread on this because I here these comments made throughout many other threads.  I know, there is probably already a thread on this issue but maybe I’m too lazy to look it up.

I here people say that you need to find a woman who you can communicate with and they imply a woman that speaks relatively good English or better.  The theory is that you need to discuss many things about goals, life style, children and such.  That if the woman doesn’t speak good English and you can barely communicate how do you know if you are compatible or that she is not just a GCG.  There are even small minded people who suggest that if the ladies English isn’t that good that the man is just in it for the sex and doesn’t care about communication.

I would like to take the opposite stand and say that you don’t have to have that good of communication; actually, the lack of communication might even be better.  I have found that women and men generally don’t try to talk about who they are but rather who they want you to see them as.  Sometimes all these words and communication is just a smoke screen to hide who the person really is.  I know people who will describe themselves and these wonderful great people but when you really get to know them they not even close to who they describe themselves to be.

I would think that if a man and women can sit down and struggle through communicating simple ideas to each other over a dictionary there would have to be a lot of dedication on the part of both of them.  I think that would be more meaningful than two people who sit there and spend a few hours easily talking about art history or whatever their interests are.

I think the best communication people need to look at in this venture and many others is the non-verbal communication.  If a man HAS to be able to communicate with a women almost fluently and can’t understand a woman by her actions and mannerism then he is not going to be very successful at this no matter how well they can both speak to each other.   

[jb]

David,

I don't want to contradict your line of thought too much, but I think you are fooling yourself to a large degree.  You should not, can not, will not, develop a lasting understanding and a worthwhile marriage based relationship with someone you cannot talk to.  What you are advocating is a recipe for disaster.

Just my 2 cents.

[andrewfi]

jb ~ I agree with you but I also think that many men simply do not really want or need to communicate. For them a woman who is effectively mute is just what they want. If she were to be about 4' tall with a flat head, then all the better - a place to rest his beer when he goes out to Monster Truck events.
I also tend to beleive that some men do not want to have good communication because they do not want to hear things that might not suit them. Poor communication saves men from having to go round with fingers shoved into their ears and singing 'take me to a happy place!' - for a while at least.

There is a reason why men and women do not go round smelling each other's arses! We developed verbal communication because it worked better than the non-verbal stuff.

[Leslie]

David,

Unless you are telepathic reading non verbal behavior is much like "talking" to your dog    

When we met my wife spoke NO English and I spoke a liittle Russian.  We learned each others language.  It was TOUGH but worth the effort.  

Unless you are prepared to make a serious effort to learn Russian it is advisable to stick with women who speak some English.

[David1963]

When we met my wife spoke NO English and I spoke a liittle Russian.  We learned each others language.  It was TOUGH but worth the effort.  

This is what I was implying.  Also, if you can't learn about a woman through her actions and mannerisms then you are in for a tough road even if you can speak to each other perfectly.

[TheHorseman]

David, I wish you luck buddy.  Your picking the hardest road to travel.  Like Leslie, I speak a (ochen) little Russian and I have been to Russia to Teach English.  I have sat down at the table over a dictionary many times.  I have also been fooled by mannerisms that I took wrong..... My ex-wife...... If your going to go with a woman that speaks NO English, you better get started on your Russian now.  It takes a while.

[LatinSwede]

David,

Unless you are telepathic reading non verbal behavior is much like "talking" to your dog    

When we met my wife spoke NO English and I spoke a liittle Russian.  We learned each others language.  It was TOUGH but worth the effort.  

Unless you are prepared to make a serious effort to learn Russian it is advisable to stick with women who speak some English.

That's pretty much how it's been with me and Yana.  Since our first meeting, my Russian has gotten bigger, but her english is till very limitied.  Our main language when we've been together has been Russian.  I'm confident she'll really pick up English once she gets over here.  Also I think she's grown to comfortable with me speaking to her in Russian, which is far from being at the level of Tolstoy.  At times I"ve had to grab the dictionary if something seemed a bit foggy.

[Turboguy]

I will stay with the feelings that I have said before that if two people really want to make it work and are willing to work at it, it won't be a big deal. 

Leslie,  Actaully I think some of the dogs I have had were more intelligent and easier to communicate than some of the AW I have known.

I still think the real judgements you make about someone are from observation not what they tell you.

Most of the gals I have met speak good english.  I was supposed to be meeting up with a gal who speaks no English today before I had to cancell my trip.  I have to say I liked the one thing she said in one of her letters.   She said if we had any trouble communicating we would just spend the time together kissing.  I sort of felt we would be relying on the few words of Russian I know.  I think I may have preferred to forget them all so we couldn't communicate with a suggestion like that.   

[Maxx2]

On my other thread in this section the guy involved was married to a RW who was an English translator. When I talked with him he admitted to ignoring all the non verbal red flags. Her sweet fluent English words kept him from seeing the lies beneath them. In other words he bought her explanations hook line and sinker. It's the non verbal things they do that really show their sincerity. Although English language abilities have to be a must to keep a good marriage on course. I noticed in my case my Russian ex lost all her cognative abilities to understand English once I tried to make my points....

Maxx 

[Vaughn]

Turbo:

I will stay with the feelings that I have said before that if two people really want to make it work and are willing to work at it, it won't be a big deal.

It'll be a huge deal when she picks up English and you start wondering why the stranger beside you has suddenly evolved into an adversary. How can two "work at it" if they cannot speak whole sentences?

LatinSwede:

Our main language when we've been together has been Russian.  I'm confident she'll really pick up English once she gets over here.

  This was our road, too. And lemme tell you, she'll learn English if you can put the Russian aside - it's damn difficult - I've caught flak about it from friends here. Your ability can coddle and disenable her, to what degree is a personal matter. When you stumble into disagreement, the Russian will surface, OK. But for everyday conversation - toss out the caution of being misunderstood and you'll have done your lady a favor. Last year, Elvira took a promotion at the bank - into a department where NO Ukrainians nor Russians are on staff - best language lesson she's ever had.

 It's a rare couple who cannot talk and still make it work - perhaps they both have little in the way of expectations. Geez, it's tough enough when you understand each other perfectly...

[Jet]

She said if we had any trouble communicating we would just spend the time together kissing.  I sort of felt we would be relying on the few words of Russian I know.  I think I may have preferred to forget them all so we couldn't communicate with a suggestion like that.   

You're scaring me again, dude!


I understand the point David is trying to make, and it's valid to a SMALL degree, but the message gets trampled by the opening lines. As I've stated before, Lil knew about 4 words of English the evening we first met. We worked long and hard to get her spoken English level to the point it was when she arrived in the US. BUT underneath all that, she was nearly fluent in English reading and writing ability, long before we met - we WERE able to communicate effectively from the start. Sure we both blew a few rainbows on the phone and in correspondence, but we both had strong enough relationship skills to understand what was going on. The other thing is that most correspondence was via ICQ which is a much more conversational style of communication than e-mail. We fired questions and answers back and forth about an hour daily, whereas e-mail gives the other person time to read, digest, and formulate a tailored response, reworking it as many times as required to produce the desired effect. There is no such luxury with an IM program.

For a guy who has good relationship skills, David's advice can work, but for many of the guys I've come in contact with over the years, it's that lack of skills that got them thinking about looking abroad in the first place, and for a select few that couldn't get laid in a whorehouse with a handful of C-notes, this advice is absolutely diasterous. One of the mistakes we sometimes make in doling out advice, is the assumption that other guys have the same level of skill/knowledge/intellegence/drive/perception/etc as we do, it's rarely the case.

[Momus]

When we met my wife spoke NO English and I spoke a liittle Russian.  We learned each others language.  It was TOUGH but worth the effort.  

Leslie, how much Russian did you speak? Did you get married before you could effectively communicate? I'm new here and don't know your whole story, but I was very surprised to read the above in the context of all of your advice!

For my part, I would never exclusively date a woman I couldn't have an in-depth conversation with, let alone marry her.

[PeeWee]

I've noticed that men, by in large, are not communcators while women, by in large, are. I prefer the women who can speak English because I do not want to spend the time trying to translate every email nor do I want to pay someone to tell me what it is that she is saying or what I am saying. There is enough work to be done without adding more to what is already a difficult enough task.

How frustrating would it be for one who desperately wants to talk to you, the woman, and she cannot do it? You are causing her undue stress. To have stress and frustration added into a budding relationship is not a good thing. It seems to me if any of these FSU ladies have their minds set on meeting a foreign man that they should first prepare for the meeting by learning the langauge first. English is a good universal language to learn.

Why would anyone choose a woman that he knew nothing about and one that he could not talk to? It makes no sense to me. For me I can see her face but I need to hear her thoughts early on. If I don't like what it is that I am hearing then I need to move on.

Peewee

[Momus]

I've noticed that men, by in large, are not communcators while women, by in large, are. I prefer the women who can speak English because I do not want to spend the time trying to translate every email nor do I want to pay someone to tell me what it is that she is saying or what I am saying. There is enough work to be done without adding more to what is already a difficult enough task.

I'm probably not a "communicator" in the sense that I want to sit down for a couple hours and tell her all about "how I'm feeling." I can usually wrap that up in a sentence or two, maybe a word or two. Most of the women I've been involved with have loved those conversations, and that's cool, too -- I'm (usually) happy to listen, if I know what the hell she's saying. You know how frustrating it can be when a woman is mad at or dissappointed with you but won't tell you why? How frustrated will you *both* be if she *can't* tell you why?

Not to mention, while I don't usually feel the need to emote all over her all night, if we go out to a movie I might like to talk about it afterwards. If she's about to do something silly, like vote Democrat, I'd at least like her to be able to tell me why.

[Todd]

If this works for you, great.  As for me, the reason that Kate and I
are together is that she and I communicate better than I did with
any other woman I've dated.  I travel quite a bit for work so much
of the time Kate and I only have phone time at night to share what
happened during our day.  Thus, being with someone who couldn't
communicate in English would be a recipe for disaster for me. 

It seems to me if you choose to go down this road, then you need to be
prepared for a great deal more support when she comes to this
country...unless you plan on living in the FSU.  Kate occasionally has
challenges here, but generally, she gets along day to day quite fine.

Todd

[andrewfi]

In the example Maxx gave and probably in Maxx's case as well, it would not have mattered how good or bad the English. These people were unable to divine non-verbal communication.

Just a quick question for the body language believers... How similar is Russian body language to American body language in respect of intial meetings? And what is the single thing that would tend to mislead two people meeting for the first time?

When we have the correct answer to that two-parter, we can start to understand just how fallacious the non-verbal communication argument is.

At its best, non-verbal communication provides an emotional overlay to verbal communication, no more. It is not talking by smell, or dialogue by gesture, it is not sign language, a speech replacement.

[Bruno]

Just a quick question for the body language believers...

Body language is fascinating. People rarely recognize how much information they give off and how noticeable it is to the human eye. Even to the untrained human eye. It is said that no less that 50 percent of  information on a person’s character, impact and credibility is conveyed through no verbal communication.

The following list takes some common body postures and states the persons position.
...

http://www.infoweb.co.nz/free-articles-for-reprint/body-language

A book :

Body Language

Russian body language is quite different from American and Canadian boy lanuage. Russians are very demonstrative people and public physical contact is common. Hugs, backslapping, kisses on the cheeks, expansive gestures, etc., are common among friends or aquaintances, and between members of the same sex. Members of the same sex may walk hand-in-hand or arm-in-arm in public.

http://www.meadowbrookpress.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=216&categoryid=0&startpage=1

Example of difference between USA and Russia :

Not a chance!
This, almost amusing, gesture looks like a familiar American gesture used in child's play. The fingers are clenched in a fist with the thumb extended between the index and middle fingers, as when we look at a child and say "I got your nose!" In the Russian case, this gesture has nothing to do with play. It is a very emphatic and absolute "no" to whatever question or proposal was just made.

[Moonlight]

 
All I can say is that my fiancee is a very lucky guy, -  Im fluent in English
I dont believe in love with language barrier and misunderstanding.... sorry, its only my opinion

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ Just so that people are not misled by the 50% figure that you quoted from your web searching. That is a figure that might be true of two people sharing the same cultural background, yes?

Body language has dialects, as confirmed by one of your pasted references, and is, in most cases, subconscious. So the figures bandied about by those who would love to believe in the blindness of love and other myths are not applicable. At best it is similar to the amount of comprehension of spoken language that a non-Russian, English speaker and a Russian non-English speaker might have, assuming that they did not talk!

Scent cues may be more universally applicable, but Americans, in particular, tend to cover these by means of over frequent bathing and use of deodorants and perfumes to conceal normal body odours.

So, the bottom line is that verbal communication becomes MORE important not less so.
BTW, we have yet to see the answer to the question. It is a fundamental difference between North American White folk and Russians and would lead to confusion (excpet to the degree that I have seen evidence that at least some agencies train their girls to be aware of the difference and mask it.)

[Bruno]

Bruno ~ Just so that people are not misled by the 50% figure that you quoted from your web searching. That is a figure that might be true of two people sharing the same cultural background, yes?

Body language has dialects, as confirmed by one of your pasted references, and is, in most cases, subconscious. So the figures bandied about by those who would love to believe in the blindness of love and other myths are not applicable.

Andrew, i agree with these post and your previous post...

Yes, body language is a important thing in communication... but russian body language is not English one... for know russian body language, you need to know russian culture... some book can help but nothing replace a long term experience by living in Russia...

A newbies who count only on body language will have a lot of problem, will understand thing in a wrong way since he don't know the russian body language...

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ I thought we were in agreement, but I could see that the 50% figure referenced, unless clarified, could well be interpreted by the mute lovers as justification for not needing to be able to talk.
BTW, there is a site that references the book you cited above and has a brief outline of the kind of issues to look at. This is very far from exhaustive but here is the link: http://www.windowontheworldinc.com/countryprofile/index.html

[KenC]

I find it ironic that some here put so much faith in body language communication.  As Andrew correctly points out, communication via physical reading of signs may be considerably different in different cultures.  In other words, you may be reading signs that just are not really there.

As an example, you must consider the difference between AW and RW.  RW dress much more feminine and are generally more flirtatious than most AW.  I won't get into whether this is a positive or a negative, it is just different.  But if you apply American standards to a RW's behavior patterns, you are sure to get some very confusing messages. You might think that the RW is all hot for you and the simple truth is that she is just acting more feminine and sexy than you are used to getting from AW.  And God help you if she is just playing you!  Without a common language you are just toast. 

How anyone can think that not having a common language is a positive thing, is just retarded to me.  I just don't buy into the idea that a guy will pay closer attention to the "other" signals because of the language barrier either.  If you are serious about a woman, you should be paying attention to everything anyway.
KenC

[Turboguy]

I think one of the truest statements in this thread is Jet's post where he said.

"One of the mistakes we sometimes make in doling out advice, is the assumption that other guys have the same level of skill/knowledge/intelligence/drive/perception/etc as we do, it's rarely the case."

I think we are all different.  Most of the gals I have met spoke good English.  I would not go out on purpose and look specifically for a gal with no English, but if I met one that seemed right and she did not know English, I would not pass her up over language.   Personally I find things like you must deal with in a situation like that as making things more interesting.   I am not advocating that for everyone.  I think some guys like myself can deal with it better than others, just as Jet said.  I think there are a lot of people who really need to concentrate on gals with at least passable English skills.

[andrewfi]

TG ~ Apart from the smell of her bum, if you can not talk and accept that body language does not work, how on earth can somebody 'seem right'?

I have had several 'relationships' where language was not shared. I have had the benefit of quite few years of living in a Russian community and with Russians. My 'social radar' works well enough, it takes a whgile though, but I never, ever, met a woman who 'seemed right' without talking. I have had quite few where sex and food were the main and fun components of out relationship, but they are never, ever going to be anything other than a fling. But I guess my flings last longer than most guy's courtships and engagements in actual face time! Just what does that say for the state of play for those poor guy's relationships in reality?

An American friend of mine over here has come to the firm conclusion that most of the Russian women he sees are what he calls 'whores'. He bases this upon their dress and how they treat him. He has been here for over a year and still has not cottoned on to the reality that (1) things are different and (2) a large number of the non-Russian women he has frequent and casual sex with are, in fact, amateur versions of that which he claims to abhor!

[Momus]

I think one of the truest statements in this thread is Jet's post where he said.

"One of the mistakes we sometimes make in doling out advice, is the assumption that other guys have the same level of skill/knowledge/intelligence/drive/perception/etc as we do, it's rarely the case."

Turbo, I also agree with this statement. However, from what I've read, it's often precisely the guys who are less experienced and less socially skilled who are most likely to believe that verbal communication is "overrated" (or however you want to put it) *and* are most likely to miss, ignore, rationalize, or misinterpret what the nonverbal cues should be telling them.

In other words, I suspect the men who are least dependent on good verbal communication are those who know exactly how important it is.