Russian folk religion

[Momus]

Hypothetical case for discussion...

You're corresponding with a young woman and everything is going great. She's significantly younger than you, and so this issue comes up for discussion. You ask why she is looking for an older man. You're considering all the many answers to this question she might give, and then you receive her reply...

When she was a child, a fortuneteller told her she would marry an older man from abroad and live happily ever after.

Now, I should say that I'm indifferent to such things. On a rational and intellectual level, I don't find it any more odd than a Jewish imaginary friend who lives in the sky. And I've done enough research to know that these kinds of folk beliefs aren't exactly rare in that culture.

My question, I suppose, is about the functionality of these beliefs. Presuming that she really believes this, is it a "good" answer to the question? As it is based on a spiritual belief, presumably one deeply held, it seems likely to be more enduring than the ones you would usually hear in the US (e.g., "Baby, older men are hot!"). On the other hand, it's somewhat less satisfying for me personally than a more reasoned discussion might be...

Any of you OMBs had to process anything like this? Anyone else have any thoughts? I've just gotten started in this, and for the first time I've realized that we really aren't in Kansas anymore...

[PeeWee]

Maybe first decide if her response to your question was factual or was it a clever spur of the moment response to your question. Russian people, in general, seem superstitous to me so it would not surprise me if she did experience that and that she had harbored (harboured) that foretelling in her soul. What would your response to her have been had she in turn asked you why you were seeking a woman much younger than yourself and what do you suppose she would have asked her friends about your response to her?

Some of the Russian culture seems to intertwine with superstition. The other day Lena told me that one does not celebrate a birthday before the date of birth, but it is ok to do so after the date of birth has occured. Not to buy baby clothes until the baby is actually born. Things like that. So yes, it would seem that for her it is a good and true answer to her question based on her beliefs.

Peewee

[Momus]

What would your response to her have been had she in turn asked you why you were seeking a woman much younger than yourself and what do you suppose she would have asked her friends about your response to her?

Well, this is a hypothetical case, of course. But, hypothetically, I would tell her that I'm not looking for a woman much younger than I, and remind her that I had just devoted several paragraphs to explaining why it concerned me. I would then admit that none of my objections would likely bear much weight when measured against the prophecies of a fortuneteller. 

[PeeWee]

Well, this is a hypothetical case, of course. But, hypothetically, I would tell her that I'm not looking for a woman much younger than I, and remind her that I had just devoted several paragraphs to explaining why it concerned me. I would then admit that none of my objections would likely bear much weight when measured against the prophecies of a fortuneteller. 

I think you are right. I do not think I will ever come to know all of the superstitions that seem to be laced through out the culture. Whistling inside the house or you will whistle away your money, to drink cold liquid will cause a sore throat, 11 flowers not 12, bad luck will come to you if you light your cigarette from a candle, women should not sit on the corner of a table or they wind up single for the next seven years, rf someone gives good wishes, or you talk about your good fortune, you must spit three times over your left shoulder and knock on wood to keep your good fortune, if you leave something behind, it means you are coming back...on and on.

I would like to know more how fortunetelling, tarot cards, and horoscopes effect the lives and thoughts of Eastern European women.

Peewee

[BC]

Well from what I can tell the old 'babushka' does have a niche in FSU life.  Some lingering bad spells have been eradicated, some minor aliments cured, our long-term happiness together confirmed so I'm not going to argue.

Strange thing is that I don't wipe table crumbs into my hand anymore..

[jb]

LOL, BC.  I don't shake hands across the threshold anymore either.

Momus, joking aside, you will find degrees of superstition among the Russians.  As you can imagine, the more sophisticated the class of people, the less you will see, as you go farther afield in small towns and villages it becomes more common, not less.  However, these superstitions I've seen do not really qualify as a folk religion.  I've been to Russia many times and I've never met anyone who *really* believes in fortune tellers and tea leaves.  Also, even though many MOB catalog profiles list a woman's zodiac sign, it's a faddish, or stylish thing to do, kinda like the fad the American young people went through back in the 70's after the hit Broadway show, "Hair" came along with the whole "Age of Aquarius" theme.  Nobody really believed that crap, but it was still fun to dabble with.

Now that I've denied that "folk religions" exist, let me say that Russia has it's fair share of kooks and nuts of all sizes, shapes, and ages.  We have one member whose ex-wife was as loony-tunes as can be, she fancied herself to be a witch, she even built an voo-doo altar in a closet where she did her black magic arts.  If you find yourself in the company of a young woman who really and truly believes this sort of stuff, no matter how pretty, no matter how appealing is her story, no matter nothing,,, I'd say; "Run, Forest, run!!!!"  No man should be so lonely, or so desperate, as to knowingly marry an unhinged crazy person.  There are plenty of decent looking women out there who are well educated, well balanced, and well enough adjusted, who won't give you that kind of grief.

A simple fact that many here will deny is that a great many of the women involved with the MOB industry are factory seconds and rejects for one reason or another.  If you really believe that girls, especially the young single never married girls, who are that pretty, cannot find an interested RM right there at home, then you need to rethink this whole thing.   There's most likely a flaw in there somewhere that you need to get friendly with.  A few simple superstitions we can usually live with, but you should beware of full blown craziness.

[Nando]

  If you find yourself in the company of a young woman who really and truly believes this sort of stuff, no matter how pretty, no matter how appealing is her story, no matter nothing,,, I'd say; "Run, Forest, run!!!!"  No man should be so lonely, or so desperate, as to knowingly marry an unhinged crazy person.  There are plenty of decent looking women out there who are well educated, well balanced, and well enough adjusted, who won't give you that kind of grief.

Having had some experience in this field I must agree with you completely...

[jb]

Nando, I'm glad you agree.

It would seem there are quite a few women out there in the MOB scene with some sort of mental defects who, failing to find happiness at home, will opt to try for a fresh start with a man she can probably fool for a short period of time.  The American One Week Wonder fits that bill. 

I recall some very recent examples of this, TurboGuy's K-1 gal, Luda, was most probably a few degrees off plumb.  The things she did and the mood swings he described would prolly be diagnosed as bi-polar at the very least.  Maxx's ex-RWife was certifiable and it looks to me as if Gary's Green Card Gal might also be playing with a deck that's missing a few Aces.  Do you remember the bouts of severe depression and homesickness described by Photoguy when his K-1 woman was with him?  Not a good sign...

Normal people have the idea in their head that they must adapt to new situations and changes in locations, they buckle down and get to work.  Most are able to do most things, like learn a new city, where to shop, how to cope with new surroundings and the like fairly quickly.

The point I was trying to make is that "normal" people, even Russians, don't normally do crazy things to their spouses. 

[dfb]

According to my wife, superstitious beliefs are a part of their culture, almost all people are aware of the “rules or superstitions”, and most people believe them to some degree.  At one time she bought into some of it to a certain degree (handed down from her mother), until she got into collage and met people who were really messed in the head about the superstitions (full blown craziness).  These people were using the superstitions to run every aspect of their lives, and it challenged her to rethink all of the B.S. that she was taught.  When we got married, she was living with her mother and the superstitions were still part of her life (to a lesser degree than when she was younger).  After immigration the superstitions lessened, and now she can recite the “rules” and laugh at the ridiculousness of them.  It is possible for people’s beliefs to change when removed from that kind of environment.  Before getting married, I would recommend evaluating what the superstitions are and how you would feel about them 10 years from now (assume that they will not go away).  I was fortunate that the superstitions were going away with time, because my tolerance towards them was also going away at about the same rate.

[PeeWee]

We too have a few superstitions. Knowing not from where they stem but probably brought from England with the pilgrams. Not to walk under a ladder, not to let a black cat cross your path, if you spill salt throw a pinch over your shoulder.

Question for jb. Those involved with the MOB are factor rejects. Are you limiting this accessment to RW who are involved only with the MOB business are do all RW fall into this class of people? I am thinking of those woman who are friends of RW already living in another country who have suggested that a man meet their friend still living in Russia...a referral if you will. Or an RW who has recently arrived in a foreign country within the past year for whatever reason and you have met her in the Russian market. Or the woman that the fellow met in a kiosk in Kiev...I like that...the Kiosk in Kiev could be a book title...anyway, not factory seconds?

Peewee

[dfb]

Momus,
  I would not treat this subject lightly.  If she is seeking the guidance of a fortuneteller for whom to marry, she will most likely continue to seek guidance after marriage.  I’ve seen this happen before.  Fortunetelling is a business here, just like back in FSU; they advertise and their clients seek them out.  First marital problem, she will be on the phone calling a 1-900 number...

[KenC]

Momus,
I concur with what jb wrote.  As long as it is kept to a minimum, all is fine.  My wife had many more superstitions when she arrived than she does now.  But in general, RW do believe in "signs" and to some degree in fortune telling.  Think of the girls story as a cute way to justify including you in her target market!
KenC

[Maxx2]

and it looks to me as if Gary's Green Card Gal might also be playing with a deck that's missing a few Aces.   

I am going to post the 10 page handwritten and signed afidavit about this woman (Elena) from her own cousin (Alexandra). Chilling! 

Maxx

[Bruno]

But in general, RW do believe in "signs" and to some degree in fortune telling.

I think that we can say this about all women and not only the RW... When i go to work the morning with my fresh newspaper, i have only women who ask me it for read the horoscopes...

[KenC]

Bruno,
Most of the AW that I have met do not believe in such things.  So it isn't all women.
KenC

[Bruce]

I tend to agree with JB that the further you go from the big cities and the lower the education level the more you tend to see people believing in the imaginary bulsh4t that humans have conjured up over the years.  Get used to the shrines in the closets and on the shelves as well as well as the mini-altars in the taxi-cabs as well as on the walls in alot of homes.  Belief in things including widely varied interpretation of what I would call Orthodox Christianity certainly is pervasive.   Religious practice, at least as Americans are used to it, tends to be minimal at best - but when you live in an all  pervasive mafia society I would expect it.  Do not worry about it, just wade through the muck and expect some stupidstition here and there.  Meet the girl along with some others.  Women tend to be feeling creatures to start with so its par for the course  .

[PeeWee]

  Get used to the shrines in the closets and on the shelves as well as well as the mini-altars in the taxi-cabs as well as on the walls in alot of homes.    Religious practice, at least as Americans are used to it, tends to be minimal at best - but when you live in an all  pervasive mafia society I would expect it. 

Although I would consider the millions of Asian people who now live in the US to be American. Most of the Asian homes that I have visited, South East Asians, not to mention the Indians, will have a shrine located in either a closet or on a wall. With th is in mind the US may not be so different from Russia in this regard. I have ridden in a lot of taxi that include mini-alters, especially those owned by Indians and most of the cabs in the Greater Seattle area are either Indian or African. None of this seems different to me based on my experience.

I agree with the mafia society. I had read, or was it the History Channel, that over 50% of business now in Russia had this mafia influence. And what is Brighton Beach, NY? Now a heavy red mafia influence.



Peewee

[jj]

One letter (e-mail) response i received from a pretty younger fsu gal  was very nice telling me all about her history of city etc. , about her daughter, her job, here activities, but then the final paragraph she said "tell me when is your birthday. I believe in horoscopes: and certainly, I shall be glad to see more your pictures".   I am a Sagittarius and not at all like the bad part of my horoscope (but i do like the good stuff)     I have yet to answer and think i will pass, as I am sure to be eliminated.   jj

[PeeWee]

One letter (e-mail) response i received from a pretty younger fsu gal  was very nice telling me all about her history of city etc. , about her daughter, her job, here activities, but then the final paragraph she said "tell me when is your birthday. I believe in horoscopes: and certainly, I shall be glad to see more your pictures".   I am a Sagittarius and not at all like the bad part of my horoscope (but i do like the good stuff)     I have yet to answer and think i will pass, as I am sure to be eliminated.   jj

jj, come now. Better to be eliminated for trying than to be eliminated for not trying. I know nothing of horoscopes but do know that some signs match with other signs? What is a letter? Respond and then pass if you must.

Peewee

[Elen]

I didn't get what mafia had to do with folk religions but never mind To my mind all this passion to superstition - soothsayer - white/black magic mostly comes from a lack of confidence in your own power to change something in this life for better especially in such hard business like finding a good partner - so the main clients of all those fortune-teller are desperated women
( btw if you think that things are different in this matter in the USA because you have democracy there and have not mafia then you are wrong - magic services gain a lot of money in the west as well  )

PS like an off top I just want to ask a question - you repete word combinations RED mafia so frequency that I would to know what do you mean ( As I didn't hear such definition here - only RED directors - former soviet managers who could survied at their positions after big changes in society)

[Bruno]

PS like an off top I just want to ask a question - you repete word combinations RED mafia so frequency that I would to know what do you mean ( As I didn't hear such definition here - only RED directors - former soviet managers who could survied at their positions after big changes in society)

The Russian Mafia, aka "Red Mafia", is a name given a broad to groups of organized criminals of various ethnicity which appeared from the Soviet Union after its disintegration. Apart from ethnic Russians, the term comprises the Chechen, the Georgian, the Ukrainian, the Armenian, the Azeri mafiosi, as well as so called "mafia" groups from other former USSR republics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Mafia

[Elen]

Well like I guessed such name was a product of the west and had little to do with russian reality and classification

[jb]

Elen,

Well like I guessed such name was a product of the west and had little to do with russian reality and classification

I think you are being a little hard on this.  It is very much common knowledge that the Russian mafia controls just about everything in one way or another.  Even the space rented out to the street vendors in the open air markets is doled out, and must have a "roof".  Every small business pays for some protection, otherwise they will be out of business very quickly.

We have seen the paranoia here on several threads, for some reason many equate the Russian mafia with the Italian mob which we see portrayed in movies like the "Godfather", of course it isn't the same.  The Russian mafia does not harass tourists and travelers, that would be very bad for business.  It is in the best interests of the mafia to keep the foreigners happy and safe, and keep them coming back to spend more money.  For any man here who worries about the "Red Mafia" I would tell him that his fears are mostly unfounded, unless he does something really dumb, the mafia is your defacto friend and protector.

[PeeWee]

I didn't get what mafia had to do with folk religions but never mind To my mind all this passion to superstition - soothsayer - white/black magic mostly comes from a lack of confidence in your own power to change something in this life for better especially in such hard business like finding a good partner - so the main clients of all those fortune-teller are desperated women
( btw if you think that things are different in this matter in the USA because you have democracy there and have not mafia then you are wrong - magic services gain a lot of money in the west as well  )

PS like an off top I just want to ask a question - you repete word combinations RED mafia so frequency that I would to know what do you mean ( As I didn't hear such definition here - only RED directors - former soviet managers who could survied at their positions after big changes in society)

Elen, there are two seperate thoughts here. The comment was that the Russian society is persuaded by mafia influence. Next the thought that if not now then at one time the estimated influnce by the Russian mafia was in the 50% range. They took full advantage of the confusion caused by the downfall of the Soviet Union.

The term "Red Mafia" is used here in the US. There are so many mafia. Italian, Chinese, Japanese...so "red" only relates it to the Eastern European contingent. Hope this clarifies things for you.

Elen, this quote from an American History Channel presentation that aired 2001  1 11

"With the fall of communism, a rapacious new gangster class arose from out of the former Soviet Republics and became criminal millionaires. The Red Mafiya, which seized power with staggering speed in the post-Soviet free-market free-for-all, can be traced back centuries to the Thieves World--a secret criminal culture with a strict code of conduct based on loyalty and opposition to the government."

You had this group for hundreds of years active in Russia. Apparently they got a new name some where along the way.

Peewee

[Elen]

well I just wanted to clarify your term RED mafia as I didn't get who exactly you were speaking about - Hebrewh mafia from  Brighton Beach, former "godfathers" from soviet reality, red managers, new oligahs ( a-ka Hodorkovskyi) or whatever there But it seems you blame "REDs" for everything