How bad is racism in FSU?

[Admin]

John,

I think PeeWee is correct about this one.

When Olya and I were sitting in what used to be Cafe LeFleur overlooking Krechatyk, I distinctly recall her reaction to seeing a black man walking down the street, and she referred to him using a Russian word that sounded almost exactly like a slur word used in English.

Many of my friends in Ukraine told me that is simply the word used to describe black people in the Russian language, and does NOT have the prejudicial connotation we attach to it here in the US.

- Dan

Once again it would be nice if Peewee could post on a subject he actually knew something about.

The *N* word is seldom used in Russia when referring to blacks, even then it does not carry the same negative connotation we Americans think of when we hear it.  Like the *N* word here, the origin is still "Nigerian", which is where a lot of the blacks in Russia come from, however if you were talking to a Russian, in Russian, (which Peewee cannot do), and the subject of black people came up, the Russian would most likely refer to them, the blacks, as simply;  "za chorney", if they were Russian black people from the Caucasus, it may be the rude; "za chorney zhopias".

My transliteration may not be quite right, but anyone with a basic understanding of Russian can figure it out.

Racism does exist in Russia, it's very real, and Jack has the right of it.

[jb]

from Dan:

Many of my friends in Ukraine told me that is simply the word used to describe black people in the Russian language, and does NOT have the prejudicial connotation we attach to it here in the US.

I said that.

The objection I had to Peewee's post was the use of the word "eggplant", which has absolutely no application in the Russian vernacular.  "Eggplant" is a purely American slur and has no usage in Russian.

Most Russians will simply use "Chorney" to describe Blacks.

BTW, Peewee is never right.  He is a troll, this has been proven over and over, I do not know why you bother to defend him. 

[Leslie]

In my experience the "N" word is part of common speech in Ukraine.  It does not have the extreme predudicial meaning it has in the UK and the US.  When my wife first came to Manchester she called all black people N*ggers.  She soon realised this was NOT OK!  Natasha is not a strong racist but many of her friends are.  Jack is correct.  I have not encountered the politically correct western attitudes to racism in Russia or Ukraine.

[Admin]

from Dan:
I said that.

The objection I had to Peewee's post was the use of the word "eggplant", which has absolutely no application in the Russian vernacular.  "Eggplant" is a purely American slur and has no usage in Russian.

Most Russians will simply use "Chorney" to describe Blacks.

BTW, Peewee is never right.  He is a troll, this has been proven over and over, I do not know why you bother to defend him. 

John,

No need to turn this into anything more than it is. I read your post as taking issue with something PeeWee said - and since I did not agree with what I interpreted your objection to be, I stated so. If I misinterpreted your objection, I stand corrected.

You seem to interpret my silence as a defense of PeeWee. I have been silent because, quite simply, I have had other things to do (better things to do) than become embroiled in yet another shouting match over something that, IMHO, doesn't amount to a hill of beans (one of my father's expressions that I never completely understood - but seems, somehow, appropriate in this context).

You have made your point about your mistrust of PeeWee - and I daresay that anyone who reads your posts fully understands your feelings/thoughts on the topic.

I do not agree with your assessment of PeeWee as a "troll" - but it may be we simply have different definitions (I feel certain I will regret writing that, as it will undoubtedly result in a flurry of "troll" definitions - so be it).

Time to move on.

- Dan

[jb]

Bruno,

I don't need a lesson on Latin roots, thank you very much.  I know where the word came from.  The bulk of the African slaves that came to America during the 1700's and early 1800's were from what we call Nigeria, the west coast of Africa, these folks were being prayed upon by the Arab slavers who found a people unable to defend themselves against firearms and steel swords, they were a simple people and thus were easy pickings. 

The Dutch, English, and Portugese slave ships made regular runs between north Africa and the American colonies with ship loads of blacks, poor dumb starved bastards with nothing but the rags on their backs.  We in America are now paying the price for European greed over that deal even as we write this tripe now.   No one's hands are clean when it comes to racism.  We are all part of where it came from and nobody knows where it will finish.

[andrewfi]

The word that Dan and others are fumbling around is transliterated as something like 'neygrey', it only sounds like 'nigger' if one is not listening very well. The word does not carry the emotional weight that nigger does for many Americans, but in the end it is only a word. The emotional weight of a word is only that which we give it.

For Russians neygrey carries a connotation somewhat similar to 'black' when used to describe racial origin. 'Chernoy Zhopa' or 'black arse' is probably more akin to nigger in this instance,albeit usually applied to caucasians than those of African origin. One might be looked at askance for using chernoy zhopa, much less likely so for using neygrey.

[Turboguy]

Andrew, I listened close enough to know the word I heard was not Negray.   I have to leave soon, I will talk about my take on this later.

jb, your remarks struck me as being racist.  Particularly the part about paying the price now.  Just a comment.  I am not trying to pick at you.

[groovlstk]

I've spoken to black men in both SPB and Moscow, and during my time in Sochi I saw something disturbing involving a group of African students which I'll probably include in my TR.

None of these men told me they'd faced violence, but the day-to-day indignities are enough that I'd strongly caution any black man raised in the West to think twice about travelling there. It's not uncommon for blacks in Russia to be called "monkey" to their face. African students in Russia are small and skinny and seem resigned to such indignities. I can't imagine a well-fed, well-bred black man from NYC, for instance, averting his eyes and walking away when some babushka used the "N" word or a group of drunken louts called him a monkey. The potential for trouble is there, regardless of the presence of skinheads or ultra-nationalists.

[jb]

Yes, T/G, I am a racist.  I dislike crack dealers operating freely on the streets of American cities.  I don't like the welfare state we have become.  I much prefer the old time morality we had before rap music.  What can I say?  Like it or lump it, we are in a world of sh!t because of the liberal crap handed down by every democrat since LBJ.   

I'd like to wind the clock back 50 years and start over, but I can't,,, you figure it out.

[Admin]

Let's keep the thread centered on the topic of racism in the FSU.

- Dan

[KenC]

The word that Dan and others are fumbling around is transliterated as something like 'neygrey', it only sounds like 'nigger' if one is not listening very well. The word does not carry the emotional weight that nigger does for many Americans, but in the end it is only a word. The emotional weight of a word is only that which we give it.

For Russians neygrey carries a connotation somewhat similar to 'black' when used to describe racial origin. 'Chernoy Zhopa' or 'black arse' is probably more akin to nigger in this instance,albeit usually applied to caucasians than those of African origin. One might be looked at askance for using chernoy zhopa, much less likely so for using neygrey.

Andrew,
My wife Lena had to warn her Mom not to use "neygrey" in her conversations while here.  Sometimes folks think that their foreign language gives them a sense of freedom to say whatever they want.  In this case it wasn't meant as a slur in any way, but it could have taken that way.  I cannot count the times when we have run into Russians speaking Russian in public here and assuming that no one will know what they are saying.  I have also heard the "black arse" reference before too.  As you said, it was in reference to a white person.
KenC

[andrewfi]

Andrew, I listened close enough to know the word I heard was not Negray.   I have to leave soon, I will talk about my take on this later.

TG ~ Sorry, but I am right.
The word 'nigger' is an English word, probably from the French nègre (the French got it from the Portuguese). The Russian word is from the same French origin and is pronounced in similar fashion to the French. One would need cloth ears to confuse the two pronounciations! Of course, that does not mean it is not ever used in Russian speech and that thus you might possibly have heard somebody use it - but in several years in a Russian speaking community I have yet to hear the English usage. The Russian word is as I have given it to you.

But, in simple terms it does not matter - the connotations are different. That words are homonyms does not mean they are synonyms.

Ken ~ small point. As far as Russians are concerned caucasians are not white! In point of fact anyone with black hair and dark skin can be 'chorney' - black. Italians, Spanish, Armenians, Greeks, Turks etc etc. From what I have seen, negroes are treated as unusual but usually not disliked (most women would not marry one of African origin, but would be happy to road test one) The racism of Russians is against those they call chornoy zhopa - the caucasians - Armenians, Georgians Chechens etc etc.

[PeeWee]

Once again it would be nice if Peewee could post on a subject he actually knew something about.

The *N* word is seldom used in Russia when referring to blacks, even then it does not carry the same negative connotation we Americans think of when we hear it.  Like the *N* word here, the origin is still "Nigerian", which is where a lot of the blacks in Russia come from.  However if you were talking to a Russian, in Russian, (which Peewee cannot do), and the subject of black people came up, the Russian would most likely refer to them, the blacks, as simply;  "za chorney", if they were Russian black people from the Caucasus, it may be the rude; "za chorney zhopias".

My transliteration may not be quite right, but anyone with a basic understanding of Russian can figure it out.

Racism does exist in Russia, it's very real, and Jack has the right of it.

Jb, I was repeating what I heard or understood. What you can do is take your halfassed attitude and stick it where the sun don't shine. You know about as much about it as I do so why try to make it anything more of it than it is. I heard what I heard and I passed it along. Make like simple, simple man, and we will all get along much better.

Hmmm, now I wonder what the Russian word for A  hole is? I think I would have the perfect word for fuzzy nuts.



Peewee

Peewee

[PeeWee]

Andrew, I listened close enough to know the word I heard was not Negray.   I have to leave soon, I will talk about my take on this later.

jb, your remarks struck me as being racist.  Particularly the part about paying the price now.  Just a comment.  I am not trying to pick at you.

I'll get the topic going with Lena when I talk with her tomorrow. She may have said "negray" and with the accent, my hearing, and the phone connection I heard otherwise. I do know that she told me the reference was "eggplant" so I will ask for the clarification on that and for the Russian word equilivant. I do think, however, that to her it is a word more than it is a racist reflection. I do know that it is not wise to call a Russian man a "goat."  It is not a racist term but certainly a term that can spark a confrontation.

How the Russians feel about the Tatars? I mean no matter where  you go someone thinks that they are some how superior to someone else. Even this forum. In Norway the people who live in the west think that the people who live in the East are dumber than they are. It may be the other way around but the point is that if they feel racially superior to the other then they to are being racist. Racism seem univeral in nature which leads me to believe that Russians are no different in thought.

Peewee

[jb]

Peewee,

Why don't you just admit you haven't a clue about anything.  Or is this like your claim that you have income from several sources,,, one being book royalties.  I'd sure like to know how that's possible since your book was "self published".  You are a liar and a fraud.

No one who has an ounce of sense believes anything you post.  Give it up and just go away.

Geesh~!

[Admin]

This message is to both jb and PeeWee.

You guys clearly have 'issues.'

Feel free to air your issues with one another via PM or email - but do not display it on the open board.

The Ignore feature was installed just so guys who feel some natural toxicity with one another have an alternative to buggering up the board. Use it.

- Dan

[KenC]

Ken ~ small point. As far as Russians are concerned caucasians are not white! In point of fact anyone with black hair and dark skin can be 'chorney' - black. Italians, Spanish, Armenians, Greeks, Turks etc etc. From what I have seen, negroes are treated as unusual but usually not disliked (most women would not marry one of African origin, but would be happy to road test one) The racism of Russians is against those they call chornoy zhopa - the caucasians - Armenians, Georgians Chechens etc etc.

Andrew,
This is a lot different than how my In Laws behave and believe except for they too use the "black arses" term for low class people in general.
KenC

[PeeWee]

Peewee,

Why don't you just admit you haven't a clue about anything.  Or is this like your claim that you have income from several sources,,, one being book royalties.  I'd sure like to know how that's possible since your book was "self published".  You are a liar and a fraud.

No one who has an ounce of sense believes anything you post.  Give it up and just go away.

Geesh~!

Once again let me not only disprove you but discredit you as well. A book published such as mine draws 3 time the royalty that another book does. Now what about the version that was published in Japan by Futami Shobo...the same that publishes Clancy. I get nothing from that as well? Fuzzy Nutz...give it up as everytime I further prove your ignorance.

Peewee

[Manny]

Yes, T/G, I am a racist.  I dislike crack dealers operating freely on the streets of American cities.  I don't like the welfare state we have become.  I much prefer the old time morality we had before rap music.  What can I say?  Like it or lump it, we are in a world of sh!t because of the liberal crap handed down by every democrat since LBJ.   

I'd like to wind the clock back 50 years and start over, but I can't,,, you figure it out.

For once I am in agreement with JB!

I recently got hold of some old southern "protest" music via limewire, by Johnny Rebel and his ilk! The situation then was the same as now in the UK!

My lady is very racist and is not shy about it, when she used the *N* word in public and I pointed out to her that people dont use it openly here (maybe in personal conversation and at home or amongst friends) she said "An Englishman is from England, An American is friom America and a Nigger is from Nigeria" (pronounced "Nigger-ee-ya) and she asked what was wrong with that!

[BC]

PeeWee,

Did you not understand Dan's post?  Trying to get that last swing in?

I'm probably one of the more moderate guys around but have to admit that I find your style quite irritating..

[PeeWee]

PeeWee,

Did you not understand Dan's post?  Trying to get that last swing in?

I'm probably one of the more moderate guys around but have to admit that I find your style quite irritating..

As I find yours. Nice that we agree.

peewee

[ronin308]

I will admit my experience in Russia is limited to reading Pravda etc.  My experience in Ukraine is different.  It is possible that things differ between the two countries.

As to ni**er vs neygrey or negre here's my Ukrainian experience:
One day my fiance and I were window shopping when she saw a black doll in the window and pointed out the "ni**er".  I had her repeat to ensure I was hearing clearly, then I told her that the word was not good to use in the USA, she then indicated it was normal to use in Ukraine.

[Maxx2]

Is there a Russian swear word that means "Retarded pig"?

[Bruce]

This topic seems to come up over and over again and I shudder each time I see it because an inevitable war of words always seems to erupt.  Jack's answer was plain, simple and correct ie.

"It's there and it's very real."   

I just do not think Asians have as much of a problem as "darker skinned" people.  Now, chances are if you are black, arab or spanish you will not be formally hassled.  Many people will just hate you behind your back...........which you may or may not feel.  As far as finding a woman in Russia or Ukraine, it definitely is possible.  I just believe your haystack will be much wider and taller than the white guys or white / darker shade guys out there, followed by the Asian guys and then Black, Arab, Spanish in any particular order .

Look, Russians are White / White, White / Red, White / Golden and White / Chocolate and the white chocholates look as white as the average white Americans to me................so they definitely have the white thing down to a science.  Luckily, my wife is not prejudiced, but New York and her over all experience here in the US is definitely turning her in that direction.  I try my best to tell her they are not all that way etc....................and luckily she does run into some with character and class.  So, there is hope.

[Turboguy]

My experiences on this subject show a wide variance.

The first time anything about blacks or race came up was a gal I wrote for a long time perhaps 5 years ago.  In one letter she decided to share with me the worst experience of her life.  She then proceded to tell me her story.  She had gone to the university to visit a friend and when she left the room and was walking to the door a black person. (I think a girl) passed her in the hall.  That is it.  That is her life's most horrible experience.   Rather a sheltered life.

The next was a young gal I wrote for a while and spent 4 days with in Kiev about 20 months ago.  We had gone outside of Kiev to a restaurant.  The place we had gone had one big central dining area and then a lot of private cabins where you could eat.  She picked one of the private cabins  and we went in.  It was very nice with a TV, independent heater, pictures, nice big picnic style cable.  The first thing she says to me is that she wanted to turn on the heat because she wanted to take her clothes off.   I am sitting there thinking this is private but not that private but it was sounding interesting.   Well, what she meant to say was that she wanted to take her coat off.   Darn.  So we are sitting there and about 5 minutes later, out of the blue she says.  I think niggers are stupid.  Either niggers are stupid or they are not eductat ed but I think niggers are stupid.   Truthfully I about fell out of my chair and thought if she ever makes it to America she could get herself in big trouble.   The word she said was exactly that.  I was sitting right next to her and I could hear her quite clearly.   I would also like to add before I move on that I am simply stating what she said.  I am not wanting to offend anyone nor do I feel that is true.

My only other experience was with Luda.  She called them Black people and she was very fascinated by black people.  She thought they were wonderful and liked watching them and being around them. 

Three episodes that were very different.  My take on it is there are a lot of different sentiments there.   I think for many such as my small town gal that was example 1,  they are an unknown and sometimes people fear the unknown.   Others form their opinions on a very small sampling,  other people are intrigued by the unknown.   Yes, I think racism is worse in the FSU than some places but I think in time that will change.