In retrospect - my story with Larisa

[PeeWee]

Frankly I think PhotoGuy will resume his quest a little wiser and a lot more experienced.  Frankly, perhaps PG was a failure in his quest, but you guys were the bigger failure.   You had someone come here looking for advice and help and all he got was  " demeaning put-downs from puffed-up authoritarians".   Instead of discussing his doubts and concerns you tried to clue bat him into obedience.   I have even seen posts where it seemed to me that you guys realized you drove him in the wrong direction.  I think this has been hashed around enough that there is not too much more to say but Leslies post struck me as gloating over Doug's misfortune. 

jb, I am sure PG would appreciate that very much.  I compliment you on your decision.

Say what? "..demeaning put-downs from puffed-up authoritarians." Careful, Turbo, I might take offense to that. LOL!

I do hope that PG hits the trail again. He will be a bit wiser about it this time. I'm choosing to admire PG for his nerve and stick-to-it attitude. His story has been a learning experience. PG! What's your plan?

Peewee

[Turboguy]

I think PhotoGuy will continue his quest.  I think he has learned a lot.  I can't argue with the fact that some of the hard lessons he learned were the same things that some of the guys were trying to tell him.  I still believe they might have had better luck with a more gentile technique.  I think sometimes though you really have to learn things for yourself.  When you have a dream you just have to chase it.  If you fall flat on your face you just need to pick yourself up, try to assimilate what you have learned and try to grow from the experience.  I think PG has learned a lot.  No matter how much someone knows success is not a 100% thing.

[ronin308]

TG, several people here tried the gentile approach and even tried to use logic but it was ignored or played off lightly.  When had the feelings PG had nothing anyone could have said would have mattered or been listened to no matter how it was presented.

While it would have prevented arguments and some of the bad blood here, a change in tactics in terms of providing advice would not have mattered.

PGs experiences we'e really interesting to me because we both originally began the K-1 after only a week with our "fiances" and at the same time.  The big difference has been that since USCIS has taken over a year to approve my K-1, I have made every attempt to go back and visit her and my "potential" new family.  Hopefully soon we will see if this makes a difference.

[BC]

I still believe they might have had better luck with a more gentile technique. 

Turbo,

There's quite a broad spectrum of folks here who approached him from soft to hard.  PG could have listened to those from any group he wished. The basic advice was always the same.

I agree with you that for some only the school of hard knocks really works especially when it comes to the powers that women wield.

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/robbins/2004/robbins031404.htm

Not that I agree totally with this guy but you get the idea..

I think PG will need a little time to re-orient himself, as others that went through the hard knocks experience did.

[KenC]

Turbo,
Maybe you ARE getting senile.  It used to take you a few pages to contradict yourself, but now you can accomplish it in almost back to back posts!  You wrote first:
Frankly, perhaps PG was a failure in his quest, but you guys were the bigger failure.   You had someone come here looking for advice and help and all he got was  " demeaning put-downs from puffed-up authoritarians".   Instead of discussing his doubts and concerns you tried to clue bat him into obedience.   I have even seen posts where it seemed to me that you guys realized you drove him in the wrong direction.  I think this has been hashed around enough that there is not too much more to say but Leslies post struck me as gloating over Doug's misfortune". 
And then you wrote:
"I can't argue with the fact that some of the hard lessons he learned were the same things that some of the guys were trying to tell him".
Oh, so he did get some good advice then, huh?  He didn't just get put downs?
There was plenty of gentle advice given to PG in the beginning.  He not only chose to not use the advice given in a friendly manner, but he also mocked the adviser on many an occasion.  Only then did things turn ugly.  If there tends to be some gloating over PG's failure, it is understandable.  The way I see the history of PG is:
He came here as a wide eyed newbie admitting to knowing nothing.
He received plenty of friendly "right on" advice
He then turned on his advisers and mocked their advice as not relevent to him.
He got back as much grief as he dealt
He failed miserably
He now admits to the exact same shortcomings that he was previously warned of
Some will likely feel "but we all told you so"
KenC

[Turboguy]

Ronin,  I wish you the best of luck.  I am sure the extra visits will increase the likelihood of success.  I can understand how applying close to each other makes more interest.   I saw the same thing with SOC.  He and I applied the same day.  I also made some friends on VJ and her who had interviews close to the same day.  I think it is impossible to go back and re-write history.  To my memory the gentle approach was very short lived.  Perhaps if the posts still existed and I could go back and re-read them I would feel differently.  I followed it a little myself because I had hooked PG up with his terp so I had an interest in the outcome.  I really did not get that involved until it got viscous.

BC, interesting article,  my take on it is about like yours.  I am surprised he did not mention Helen of Troy in his list.  I agree.  I think PG needs some time to adjust.  I think he wanted that to work more than he ever wanted anything in his life.  I think he wanted it enough that no matter what anyone would have said it probably would not have mattered.  I still feel that some of the things that were said to him were things no one should ever say to anyone and that it did have the reverse effect of what they wanted.   I think they clue batted him right into her arms and I have seen posts where some of the people swinging the clue bat seemed to feel the same way about that.

Frankly I think once you get involved with FSU women it is almost like being a drug addict.  I think once you have something to compare, you are hooked.  I happened to go out on my first date with an AW in ages last night.  The first hour was spent with her telling me about all the people she put down and even how she did her best to make her doctors feel like shit.  The next hour was about all the bad relationships she had been in.  Had to be a few hundred bad relationships.  Then we moved on to men are wimps.  Fortunately about that time the place was closing and I could end the night.

Ken,  I am glad to hear I am improving.  No sense wasting pages if I can do it in back to back posts.  My complaint has always been about the message not the messanger.   To the best of my memory the gentle advice lasted about 10 posts.  I really don't care what he did.  If he farted in someones face there was still no excuse for comments like his gal being worse than trailer trash, a low classed shop girl not worthy of any man, of being so ugly that they would vomit at the thought of having sex with her and the other thoughless and crude remarks that were made.  Comments like that should be beneath any civilized man.  Comments like that are not good for the guy trying to get answers and to newbies reading RWD the first time and wanting to post questions. 

I have had Pm's from a number of guys who read the forums and want help but are afraid to post for fear they will be ridiculed.  Why PM me?   I guess because they see that I will not laugh at them, that I will make a sincere effort to help them and that my goal is to help people and not to make myself a pompous, arrogant jerk at their expense.

[Son of Clyde]

Photo Guy found a good woman who was not right for him. In other scenerios it is not so easy. Think of the foreign women who arrive with every intention of abusing the fiance or husband. Think of Maxx and others who survived the ordeal and sometimes can not trust women for a long time. It happens very often and we hear the results sometimes. It ain't a pretty picture. I am sorry it did not work for Photo Guy but I am glad this experience was with someone who cared enough to not take advantage of the situation.

Sometimes the best advice could come in a song you may have heard 40 years ago. I often remember these Percy Sledge lyrics:

I found a woman
I felt a true love
She was everything
I'd ever been dreaming of

But she was bad, I didn't know it
Her pretty smile never did show it
All I knew is what I could see
And I knew I wanted her for me

Took her home to mama
Mama, wanna see my future bride
Well she looked at us both
Then she called me to her side

She said, "son, take time to know her
It's not an overnight thing
Take time to know her
Please don't go rushin to do your thing

But I didn't listen to my mama
I went straight to the church
I just couldn't wait for that little girl of mine
When I got off from work
The preacher was there
So was my future bride
He looked at us both and he called me to his side

Take time to know her
Not an overnight fling
Take time to know her
Don't go rushin to do your thing

But it looks like every thing's gonna turn out all right
But then I came home from work a little early one night
And there she was kissin on another man
Now I know what mama meant when she took me by the hand
She said, take time to know her
Not an overnight fling
Take time to know her
Don't go rushin to do your thing
She said, take time to know her
Not an overnight fling
Take time to know her
Don't go rushin to do your thing
Take time to know her

[andrewfi]

For pity's sake lt us not now start saying that he did not fuxxor it up! If there was something he could get wrong, he did it. The outcome was as inevitable as the moon orbiting the earth.

Don't try to justify it all post-facto. Not even Doug has tried to do that!

[KenC]

Clyde,
I disagree with you on the point that Larisa was not the right woman for Doug.  She may have been the right woman for him and things may have worked out for them had he taken a different approach.  Doug will never know if things could have worked out if he had met the parents and if Larisa had learned English better before coming over.  Doug could have botched an opportunity of a lifetime, and that is what is truly sad about this story.  Doug did seem plenty happy with her and you're right, it could have been worse.  Larisa was in a position to take advantage of Doug, but never did.  I also don't think your song has anything to do with this case,  Larisa seemed like a woman with good morals.

T/G,
I agree that no one should post derogatory remarks about the looks of man's woman,  The comments about Larisa's occupation were also over the line.  That being said, most of the grief PG suffered was self inflicted.
KenC

[Son of Clyde]

KenC, now you have me wrong. My song was for the worst possible scenerio, not specifically Doug's. Now if Larisa could have been the right one for Doug why did she go back and why didn't she try as hard as Doug?

This may not be completely over if Larisa does care for Doug, not to say they will end up together but there may be contact at some point in time. She did not leave hating him, she left because she could not adjust to life here and missing her family.

[Turboguy]

First off, I liked the song.  There is a lot of truth in it whether it fits or not.  Perhaps it is not an exact fit but it is not out in left field either.  Personally I think it is over.  As much as Doug would like it not to be over I think there is no future for Doug there.  It is probably a lot like Luda and I.   I would have done anything to make it work including move to Russia or the north pole.  I think both Luda and Larisa were sitting on the fence and dealing with a lot of emotional issues.  Not the same issues but similar.  I have not heard from Luda in 4 months.  I think Doug still hears from Larisa but I think the hopes of happiness together will just continue to fade away.

KenC,  I really can't disagree with what you said.  I think perhaps if Doug would have visited her city and met her family, it may have changed things.   I guess I have some belief in destiny.  Not sure why, but I do.  I think if Larisa and Doug had been meant to be together she would be in Phoenix now.  I think something better lies in Doug's future and this was meant as a learning experience for him.  He will go into the next one with more wisdom and experience.   He may make some mistakes, we all do, but I think they will not be the same ones.

[KenC]

KenC, now you have me wrong. My song was for the worst possible scenerio, not specifically Doug's. Now if Larisa could have been the right one for Doug why did she go back and why didn't she try as hard as Doug?
This may not be completely over if Larisa does care for Doug, not to say they will end up together but there may be contact at some point in time. She did not leave hating him, she left because she could not adjust to life here and missing her family.

Clyde,
My take on this from the information provided is that we cannot determine that Larisa didn't try as hard as Doug, but that she had a different set of burdens to over come.  She had parents pressuring her to return home, an ill Father and a huge language barrier besides her own health problems.  Doug may have been able to get support from her parents if he had taken the time to get to know them.  I know what my wife went through in moving here.  Had I not made such a good impression on her parents, they may have tried to do the same thing to Lena.  Of course they missed their daughter, but they were also confident that she was with a man that loved her and a man that she loved too.  That alone is very comforting to a parent.

The future prospects for Doug and Larisa do not seem to be much pf a possibility from what Doug wrote in his post.
KenC

[Leslie]

Well TG,

I take no satisfaction whatsoever in Doug's situation.

The 4 items he posted at the begining of this thread are not in any way new.  This quest may not be "rocket science" but there is no need to rediscover such basic information again by your own experience.  The point I am making is that Doug (and every other newcomer) needs to listen and benefit from the experience of others.  That is one of the main purposes of this board.

I have been around a long time and I have seen various scenarios replayed over and over by different characters. These characters are always convinced that their situation is unique.  That they are the exceptions.  Well it does not work out that way and cheering on stupid behavior only encourages more of the same....

[Turboguy]

Leslie, I could just post because I have nothing to add but because this is a unique occurrence I will say I agree with everything you said and even have no problem with the way you said it.

[PeeWee]

Leslie, I could just post because I have nothing to add but because this is a unique occurrence I will say I agree with everything you said and even have no problem with the way you said it.

LOL!! I even agreed with him. I will say the sometimes what was ment as offering encourgement, rather than discouragement, can be seen as cheering stupid behavior. Sometimes people just have to do it their own way.

I had a friend, had, who decided that he would paddle  his kyak from Seattle to Japan. A very dumb idea yet people did tell him that it was a dumb idea. He listened but he was an experienced kyaker, very experienced, so he listened, thanked them all, and everyone cheered as the local news media covered  his launch and voyage.

What we now know is one of two things; either he never made it to Japan, or he did make land in Japan but forgot to let us all know that he was indeed successful. What PG did was far less life threatening nor could it have been so no reason not to first advice the guy and then give him some well wishes when he embarks on his adventure. But to later tell him that you told him so severs no purpose. We are here to serve purpose and not the reverse.

Peewee

[BC]

What PG did was far less life threatening nor could it have been so no reason not to first advice the guy and then give him some well wishes when he embarks on his adventure. But to later tell him that you told him so severs no purpose. We are here to serve purpose and not the reverse.

To grasp what really went on you would have to have been 'there' as it happened. 

IIRC PG and his fiancee received a host of well wishes once she arrived.

No one is gloating, but some will step up to the plate and point out the basics for the next guy down the line.

Nothing wrong with that imho.

[Turboguy]

I agree with that BC.   I think it is exactly what PG did in his first post in this thread.  It would be nice if no one would ever make the same mistakes again.  We all know it is a story that will be repeated many times. 

I think PG has learned a few things from this.  I hope that maybe we here have learned a few lessons too.

[catzenmouse]

We need to mark this down as a "Turning Point" in time on RWD. Peewee and Turbo both agree with Leslie! I better check outside, it's 100 degrees today and it just might be snowing...

Ken

[Turboguy]

You are right Ken,  Maybe it is becuase Leslie got better looking and younger looking as well.  Who could disagree with a face like that.

[Jet]

Now if Larisa could have been the right one for Doug why did she go back and why didn't she try as hard as Doug?

Clyde you can never underestimate the power of Larissa's parents to either reign her in or help her toward a free and happy life. Lil and I had our difficulties over the first year just as everyone else who's seen this through, including you. Lil's mom, when she was alive, gave her an enormous amount of positive reinforcement and reassurance that I was a good man and she was on the right track, she just needed to excersize more patience through the adjustment phase. She was able to do that because she had gotten to know me through the courtship phase, a benefit Larissa's folks didn't have. After Lil's mom died, her father and grandmother put HUGE pressure on her to pull up stakes and return to Russia (for their own selfish reasons - not her benefit) but by that time it was too late, Lil had gotten "over the hump" and really saw for herself and understood what her mom had been telling her. That gave her the strength to face her family and lay down the law - her home is here now, and I am just as much family as they are, if not moreso. Had Doug made this initial investment of time spent with her family, his story might have had a much different ending.

[Vaughn]

so no reason not to first advice the guy and then give him some well wishes when he embarks on his adventure.

  PeeWee, you've gotta be kidding. How many times did I
(among other posters) advise Doug to make a second visit?
I've lost count. I take NO satisfaction in what happened later,
but I did shake my head when Doug continued to ignore
sound advice and justify his course with homegrown philosophy.
If ever a new relationship needed "seasoning" theirs was a
prime example.

  Doug lists "her family" "her friends" "her world" "her English skills"
as unforeseeable facets that ultimately proved obstacles. I'd feel
more comfy reading changes he could make within himself to
enhance his chances of a more successful outcome. For me, and
I speak only for myself, finances were a major force with which
I had to reckon. Another big one was: am I ready for this? I had
in the past been advised by professionals that I was severely
addicted to relationships, almost never allowing myself enough time to recover from one to the next. For some dudes, switching gears may come easy - and I thought it did for me - but in all honestly it merely clouded my
sound thinking with self-serving gratification. After countless
bumper-to-bumper crashed relationships, I began to be able to
"foresee" that serious downtime for myself was sorely needed.
Not a weekend, not a month - try a few years on for size....
It was the soundest advice I ever got, and not until I could lay down
an honest list of priorities and expectations could I proceed to
attract a foreign bride-to-be in a functional manner. She's so much
more than a firm cuddle toy between the sheets.

Doug, understand that life is chock full of unpleasantries,
including disappointment, sickness, loss of security, and death. Foresee
all of them as likely, or inevitable - I know the optimists dislike
considering their gravity. IMBRA imposes NO time limits - there's no deadline.
Consider your next journey as a mere appetizer to subsequent journeys
that will afford both of you the time to foresee the likelihood of a solid
match, and become more certain of feelings with a test of time.

[PeeWee]

To grasp what really went on you would have to have been 'there' as it happened. 

IIRC PG and his fiancee received a host of well wishes once she arrived.

No one is gloating, but some will step up to the plate and point out the basics for the next guy down the line.

Nothing wrong with that imho.

True. Good point. PG gets to be a real example of what not to do which is valuable for all.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

We need to mark this down as a "Turning Point" in time on RWD. Peewee and Turbo both agree with Leslie! I better check outside, it's 100 degrees today and it just might be snowing...

Ken

I will agree with anyone if what they say makes sense to me. I even disagreed with Turbogay once.

Peewee

[Mamma D]

I read... a lot of sound advice here and also a lot of hurt. I am sorry it didn't work out.

My son went through a relationship...without the travel. And it was hurtfull...
She had been here once before, and it was BAD. In the end, even though I was in touch with her... she just could not make that leap of TRUST.

She married a nice German man, and is able to visit more often and quicker in case of emergency. Her parents are older people.

Remember, that you must always be available in the early period.... It is scary to now be able to translate what is going on around you. Her greatest fear! Getting lost in her own house!

Try to replicate the things of importance she left behind....With our family, the focus was a new piano, and later an Electric Piano. Basil is an accomplished pianist, (took Gold in the Denver competitions last year in his division).

Irina holds a degree in music, as well as one in Physics. She was a violinist. She had a small band... but the boys kept graduating from the Music school! She did forbidden arrangements for 5 instruments.

Arrange to keep lines of communication open to her family and friends....And if it is at all possable, a visit home every year. Basil will not travel to Russia, until he is over 25 now. He holds both passperts, but they may not allow him to leave.

Give her the privilege of watching Russian Cable when she is alone....usually Irena watches the classics.. (your lady may have other interests). and give her a telephone card or make voice connections available to her....The sound of a loved ones voice is so precious.

If you can... leave a computer with internet connections. It will keep the Russian ability to write strong.

Since I have a Russian daughter AND grandson they speak a lot of Russian....to each other!
Dick says "there will never be too much Russian in his home..." and I really respect that attitude. They will translate at the drop of the hat.. if asked.

Now,
Irena watches American TV...but it gets tiring ..(she still is translating back and forth). But only when someone can explain what she id unable to understand....

She really likes the "Chicken Soup" books. Short stories, written as we use English....They are her text and work books. She works in the library and short conversations help her, without tiring her.

I am amazed at the progress she has made over the last 5 years... and Basil is more American than Russian now...and we are trying to help him stay fluant in both cultures.

These are things to think about.....I was so homesick the first time I moved abroad...and I still remember!

Bless you all and may you find the joy these two has brought to our lives.

Mamma D

[PeeWee]

I read... a lot of sound advice here and also a lot of hurt. I am sorry it didn't work out.

My son went through a relationship...without the travel. And it was hurtfull...
She had been here once before, and it was BAD. In the end, even though I was in touch with her... she just could not make that leap of TRUST.

She married a nice German man, and is able to visit more often and quicker in case of emergency. Her parents are older people.

Remember, that you must always be available in the early period.... It is scary to now be able to translate what is going on around you. Her greatest fear! Getting lost in her own house!

Try to replicate the things of importance she left behind....With our family, the focus was a new piano, and later an Electric Piano. Basil is an accomplished pianist, (took Gold in the Denver competitions last year in his division).

Irina holds a degree in music, as well as one in Physics. She was a violinist. She had a small band... but the boys kept graduating from the Music school! She did forbidden arrangements for 5 instruments.

Arrange to keep lines of communication open to her family and friends....And if it is at all possable, a visit home every year. Basil will not travel to Russia, until he is over 25 now. He holds both passperts, but they may not allow him to leave.

Give her the privilege of watching Russian Cable when she is alone....usually Irena watches the classics.. (your lady may have other interests). and give her a telephone card or make voice connections available to her....The sound of a loved ones voice is so precious.

If you can... leave a computer with internet connections. It will keep the Russian ability to write strong.

Since I have a Russian daughter AND grandson they speak a lot of Russian....to each other!
Dick says "there will never be too much Russian in his home..." and I really respect that attitude. They will translate at the drop of the hat.. if asked.

Now,
Irena watches American TV...but it gets tiring ..(she still is translating back and forth). But only when someone can explain what she id unable to understand....

She really likes the "Chicken Soup" books. Short stories, written as we use English....They are her text and work books. She works in the library and short conversations help her, without tiring her.

I am amazed at the progress she has made over the last 5 years... and Basil is more American than Russian now...and we are trying to help him stay fluant in both cultures.

These are things to think about.....I was so homesick the first time I moved abroad...and I still remember!

Bless you all and may you find the joy these two has brought to our lives.

Mamma D

You should come around more often, Mamma D. These ideas are most helpful to me.

Peewee