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Author Topic: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"  (Read 4574 times)

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Offline Strider

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Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« on: June 13, 2019, 04:29:23 PM »
I am looking for the exact translation of "въроисповъданіямь".  It comes from an old pre-WWI Russain journal.  The full text is "общее число жителей западнаго края по племенамъ и въроисповъданіямь".  So, it's "The total number of inhabitants of the western region by tribes and ________?"
 
I understand that it is about ethnic groups and similar divisions, but I am looking for the exact word, which must now be archaic Russian.

Thanks!
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2019, 04:32:44 PM »
I am looking for the exact translation of "въроисповъданіямь".  It comes from an old pre-WWI Russain journal.  The full text is "общее число жителей западнаго края по племенамъ и въроисповъданіямь".  So, it's "The total number of inhabitants of the western region by tribes and ________?"
 
I understand that it is about ethnic groups and similar divisions, but I am looking for the exact word, which must now be archaic Russian.

Thanks!

It means religious affiliations
Be the person that your dog thinks you are

Offline Strider

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2019, 09:03:45 PM »
Thank you very much. 

Is "tribe" a better translation than "clan" for "племенамъ" in this context?
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

Offline whynotme

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2019, 02:19:48 AM »
Thank you very much. 

Is "tribe" a better translation than "clan" for "племенамъ" in this context?

Nationality and confession.

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2019, 03:42:52 AM »
Thanks!
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2019, 09:31:07 PM »
OK, so under a listing for each governorate, there is a category labeled "Уъзды".  This appears to be an idiomatic usage of the word that translates as "bridle".  It may signify exonyms, different from endonyms, or some other imposed controlling structure.  So, what English word is better than "bridle" for "Уъзды"?
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2019, 10:55:16 PM »
Its county, not bridle, according to my husband.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
True love begins when nothing is looked for in return.  Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2019, 11:44:24 PM »
Thank you.  The source is back in tsarist times when the local count may well have been expected to bridle the local population.  It makes sense that way.
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2019, 02:05:42 AM »
From what I can find online, "Вотяки" is an older name for the Udmurts. 

Did "Вотяки" previously only refer to the Udmurts or also to other Finno-Ugric tribes or peoples?

What is the derivation/literal translation of ""Вотяки"?  "Вот я" can translate something like "I am here", so did this originally refer to "local" people who did not belong to the dominate Slavic ethnic groups?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 02:10:30 AM by Strider »
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

Offline mhr7

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2019, 09:54:44 AM »
From what I can find online, "Вотяки" is an older name for the Udmurts. 

Did "Вотяки" previously only refer to the Udmurts or also to other Finno-Ugric tribes or peoples?

What is the derivation/literal translation of ""Вотяки"?  "Вот я" can translate something like "I am here", so did this originally refer to "local" people who did not belong to the dominate Slavic ethnic groups?

Thanks!

Foreigners from a Finnish tribe from the eastern part of Vyatka province.
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American peopledoes not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us    James Mattis

Offline Strider

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2019, 01:32:05 PM »
Foreigners from a Finnish tribe from the eastern part of Vyatka province.

Thank you.  I am looking at an older map and I am seeing a group much further West.    So, I am trying to understand the derivation of "Вотяки", or if it was once a more general exonym.
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

Offline nano

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2019, 09:00:51 AM »
Is it theme expired? I am too interesting in history and maybe can give some explanations. Вотяки seems as name of area near Perm or name of ethnicity also udmurd. But why you interesting historic places and names?
Just want to see the other side :)

Online krimster2

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2019, 10:10:12 AM »
you might want to make the acquaintance of

Economic History of Russia

http://tinyurl.com/y5chft47

page 580-581 discusses the Ad-Kama Finns which includes the Votyaki

relatives of yours, I assume?

I met some of these people in Ekateringberg in the late 90's
distinctly different in appearance from Ural Russians
shorter, more angular faces...
more suspicious of outsiders...
for some reason they reminded me of rural Kentucky hillbillys but much smarter...
 

« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 12:00:38 PM by AnonMod »

Offline nano

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2019, 09:55:49 AM »
krimster2 seems you was in every town in the world :D And just surprasing ever when you was in Ekaterinburg in the late 90's why we havent met? :popcorn: :D  Or Ekateringberg is not Ekaterinburg? :) maybe another town
Just want to see the other side :)

Online krimster2

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2019, 12:41:28 PM »
in the late 1998 I made a round-trip journey from Yekaterinberg to Mirny
if you remember Yekaterinberg from 1998 then you remember this bardak period!
it was crazy in Russia during the "crisis"

in Mirny you had to pay in the exact amount whenever you bought something
because NO ONE had change, not even a kopec!!!!!
there was almost NO MONEY in Mirny at all then, it all went back to Moscow...

I was there to buy raw uncut diamonds

I bought a 5+ caret raw stone that yielded 3.5 VS1 cut carets that would retail for $35,000
my wife still has it...

I will be in Moscow 3 weeks from now with my oldest daughter
she is giving a presentation at a Russian charity (she speaks fluent native Russian)
Im her body guard...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 12:43:51 PM by krimster2 »

Offline nano

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2019, 01:15:42 PM »
krimster2, yes I remeber that hurd time but seems even at that time you wasnt price on the white mmmm... horse already as I dreamed and galoped beside me :) I even haven't know english yet and wasnt interesting international dating atall  :D But for russian residents that type of deals prohibited :-X
 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 01:17:32 PM by nano »
Just want to see the other side :)

Online krimster2

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2019, 02:50:44 PM »
and for Americans even more prohibited...
extremely risky enterprise
one that makes me an outlaw

Russian MTV back then was AMAZING!
I think it just came out about that time...
I remember back then it was Americans who laughed at Russia's President Yeltsin
now look who's laughing at who and how much louder the laughter is...

Russian Far East is an incredibly beautiful and dangerous place
plenty of ways to make a fortune there
it is more the "Wild West" than America ever was
plenty of outlaws and thieves
some wearing uniforms

you're in the Urals, do you ever make "excurtsie" out into the mountains?
do have a dacha outside the city, a little garden at least?

what kind of work do you do?
did your family always live there, or did they move there because of the war for factory work?

« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 02:58:19 PM by krimster2 »

Offline Strider

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2020, 07:08:09 PM »
 
you might want to make the acquaintance of

Economic History of Russia

http://tinyurl.com/y5chft47

page 580-581 discusses the Ad-Kama Finns which includes the Votyaki

relatives of yours, I assume?

I met some of these people in Ekateringberg in the late 90's
distinctly different in appearance from Ural Russians
shorter, more angular faces...
more suspicious of outsiders...
for some reason they reminded me of rural Kentucky hillbillys but much smarter...
 

Thank you for this, and sorry for the long delay responding.

No, they are not likely my relatives, but if the Tsarist map is correct, then a group of these people, or perhaps a Finnish clan of them, lived much further west than modern scholars choose to admit.  They likely have been forgotten because Western social scientists have accepted Soviet propaganda that these people were not some kind of Finns, and had another language forced upon them.  Ivan III would not have baptised nor Christianized them, as they were well beyond the borders of his state.
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

Online krimster2

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2020, 07:31:09 AM »
Russia is full of ethnographic surprises!!!!
I am even contributing to that now, my oldest daughter is getting married in Moscow in October and will be living there...
outbreeding
I will train my Russian grandchildren in useful skills...
they will need them

I have encountered all manner of human variation in Russia...
some that are unique!!!

I find ways to make my unique human discoveries useful to me
it's how I move forward there...

Offline Strider

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2020, 08:37:44 AM »
They were well West of Russia.  Historically the Finns were found well West of the boundaries of modern Finnland.  Roman historians wrote of the Finni inhabiting the South coast of the Baltic to near the Vistula.  A famous Swedish historian wrote that they were found in Baltic islands near Denmark. 

What amazes me is that if one actually bothers to read the academic scholarship before WWI, it is quite different from Western academic writing after WWII, when many choose to accept official Soviet ethnography to the point that earlier opinions were just swept under the rug and sanitized.  I am still perplexed why "Вотяки" was used to describe these people, which presently is used to describe a group much further East.
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

Online krimster2

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2020, 08:51:19 AM »
these people likely faced the usual xenophobia displayed towards non-russians
so lived separately, etc, while individuals left and married with Russians over time
almost all the non-Russian groups lived this way, more or less
it's a universal constant
most western authorship is simply translating what Russians have written with little original observation (since for much of the time, it was inaccessible, and is DIFFICULT now)
Russian far-east has some amazingly isolated groups of people with a unique culture compared to the rest of Russia
but is about 10 times more dangerous than "civilized" Russia
worse thing is the mosquitos there
but I've met the most beautiful women there of all different kinds and racial mixes
and NOW there is NO competition from other men
it'd be like hunting in a zoo now
even a blindman could bag game in this environment
too bad none of you will be going!!!




« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 09:20:41 AM by krimster2 »

Offline Strider

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2020, 12:13:00 PM »
The FSU was more than just Russians.  I can remember reading in the 80's that it had a diversity of nationalities in it which was potentially destabilizing.  What many academics don't seem to want to grasp, is that in the FSU ethnicity was assigned by the state.  This is opposed to the notion that ethnicity is how one self-identifies.  Europe is full of people who may speak the national language, but self-identify as something else.  Yet, when Western academics write about the FSU, they tend to accept the official ethnic information without questioning it, even if earlier pre-Soviet sources differed in opinion.  There was something political about that, especially in the lands Stalin acquired from neighboring countries through his partnership with Hitler.
"It's by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth!"
-Fiodor Michajłowicz Dostojewski

Online krimster2

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Re: Translation of "въроисповъданіямь"
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2020, 07:35:25 PM »
"had a diversity of nationalities"

it was the prison house of nations after all
but some of the prisoners were more equal than others
and those who were less equal
had to make themselves more than equal
to Russians
in other ways
my ancestors started a mafia in Odessa
and brought it with them to Philadelphia


with random traveling in remote Russia
you will encounter some "strange neighborhoods"
with isolated groups that have a unique culture
you will encounter a lot of weirdness going on there
usually strange people will also find other strangers interesting
so I don't really have any problems with anyone
and I am absolutely someone no one wants to f&ck with
not even Russians
my people created yegers like me
to be the ones who dealt with Russians
so I've gotten pretty good at it
but I work just for myself now
it's a living...




« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 07:47:57 PM by krimster2 »

 

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