Did I Screw Up?

[Boethius]

Your quoted question was not to me.

I wanted to comment on a couple of points --I disagree strongly with those who have commented on medical costs . Quoting zero to minimal $ costs is not realistic--  yes possible -- but not how it is generally done .eg  just yesterday -- my lady went to Dr with a blocked ear ( probably just wax dislodged in shower) -- it cost $25   not to wait what could have been 5/6 hours.This was  a simple problem-- but still required pharmacy costs too. I am also very (very) aware of real hospital costs   -- and they can easily be a very long way from free. NOTE --I am not theorising here -- this is all from up close personal exposure.
Conclusion -- on medical costs my opinion would be reserved until I knew more -- a lot more.

I am not theorizing either.  I have funded three surgeries in Ukraine in the past five years - one for gallbladder removal, one for a very complex operation that required a bone graft, and one colorectal surgery.  All were performed at state hospitals, so technically, were free.  However, to obtain quality care, patients are expected to pay extra.  One payment, five years ago, was US$50.  Two, one a few months ago, the other, 10 months ago, were each US$100 to the physician, US$20 to the main nurse. 

In addition to the above, MIL had surgery 2 years ago and paid nothing.  She absolutely refused to pay anyone, but still managed to receive timely and quality care.  The difference for her was, she didn't care if she lived or died.  So, the idea that someone paid a physician, say, US$700 to diagnose pneumonia is ridiculous.   

I assume OP sent the $800 without being asked. That's fine, but that she is now asking for even more says something about her character.

We have never sent that much money.  If we did, we'd be told we were sending too much, and not to do that again.  The better half would send as much as his family requires, and he has never sent more than US$200 at a time  He's now reduced that to $100, as his sister says she doesn't want more because she doesn't know who will follow her home.  He always asks if they need money, and the answer is no most of the time.

The reality Jay is that your lady didn't want to wait, had the funds, and was willing to pay more to go to the front of the line.  No one in Ukraine is paying a physician hundreds of dollars for a diagnosis of a relatively routine illness.

PS - The trust is gone OP.  You would really have to build it up to move forward, if you even can do so.  I could never marry a man who tried to pull the wool over my eyes about money.  But, among a subset of FSU individuals, this is normal, even done within families.

This post was composed without the aid of google. 

[scarface816]

I think I would get in a discussion about exactly what the money is needed for -- specifically. That is a crucial piece of information before deciding  about it -- and what she was think on this issue.Generalising answers without knowing more could be a big mistake .
On stated income -- depending on type of business -- cash income can be considerably higher .

I am not setting out to debate every point -- but -- things are never that black & white .

I can see you are on the negative side here -=- being calm is good -- and the best way to establish information that can help you. For me-- I have laid out a basis of why I would not jump to a conclusion based on what info you have disclosed here.

The money is for half of the rent on her office where her practice is. The total rent is $1900 and she needs half. It is unlikely that it is this much even for the best part of town. You could probably get a decent professional office in her city for about $400 per month i would estimate.

I have asked her many questions. I suggested she find a new partner to replace the one that is leaving. I suggested she is paying too much for rent she says she needs this place because they do not charge for heat in the winter. She says she is looking for a new partner. When I told her that it does not look good. She did not like this. But did not get mad she just made a face and eventually turned cold to me.

She wants the money and is not getting her way. She just assumed I would send her the money. My fault for creating that perception. One good test for a woman is to see how she reacts when you say no. So far her reaction is not very good.

[2tallbill]

Thanks man. I am working on it.

Let me ask you another specific. You talked about a financial planning meeting early, and Frrrrrt, and a few others mentioned this.

How would you suggest going about this. Because I have never done this with a woman in early dating.

First or second or third date?

In person or via skype? Does this matter?

Before sex or after sex?

I have dated many women but this is new ground for me.

In the first few skype conversations I would see if I liked her, if she
had a sense of humor and in every call, letter etc. I would be checking
her character.

In the first few chats, I dump the girl +90% of the time (or get dumped
myself). I realize it's difficult to believe that there are women running
around on this Earth that have rejected my handsome, charming and
humorous self, but it's happened.

Once, I've determined that I like a girl and that she likes what she's
seen so far, I start talking about meeting in person. If she hesitates
then she gets kicked to the curb.

From that point on I am talking about situations, and they realize that
I'm seriously considering them and they start seriously considering me.
I have conversations about everything. I don't have much of a financial
conversation before we meet except some basic stuff. Explaining that I
am not a majority stockholder in Microsoft, Google or Amazon and that
they shouldn't expect rides in private jets or weekly purchases of mink
panties.

I am always moving forward and always creating scenarios. Miss
Sweetie-smile let's talk about raising children and try to eliminate
potential problems in advance before they happen. Blah, blah, blah.

I know of a guy who had HUGE argument with his wife about her son
who was in his mind spoiled and she wouldn't let him correct him about
anything. THEY WERE FREAKING MARRIED!!!! and they hadn't talked
about what they would do about potential conflicts or back talking.

So you can always say, my friend Bill told me about a guy who got
married without talking about ____________ (next subject here)
who would marry a girl without talking about________________
(enter subject here) 
 
Any serious girl will welcome all of these conversations. They want a
serious man who is thoughtful and who thinks ahead about things.

A scammer girl will not be able to have long conversations about
whether a new baby sleeps in the bed after breast feeding or goes
back into the crib.

A serious girl will be eager to talk about this.
A scammer girl won't talk about herbs grown in the window sill
or the health benefits of _____________ (enter some type of
tea or soup here).

Another thing you can say is "We have a million things to discuss
before you arrive" and jump right into anything. Once it dawns on
her that you are moving things in a positive direction she will fasten
her seat belt and get ready for the ride.

Talking about financial matters is gradual and usually after the first
meeting for me at least. I give her the I'm not rich disclaimers and
if the Skype call doesn't immediately go dead I move on to the next
issue.

I talked with Angel Eyes about all sorts of financial things after our
first meeting, but after our second meeting she was all in. I knew
that we were going to be Mr and Mrs 2tallbill some day.

I told her a hundred times that she was going to fall in love with me
and live happily ever after. She nodded her head every time as if it
was the law of gravity and indisputable.

Udachi!

Bill

[JayH]

The money is for half of the rent on her office where her practice is. The total rent is $1900 and she needs half. It is unlikely that it is this much even for the best part of town. You could probably get a decent professional office in her city for about $400 per month i would estimate.

Did I see upthread her city was Dnipro?
Not being obtuse ! -- But -maybe it was more than one one months rent? Plus other expenses?
On her attitude-- mmm maybe disappointed-maybe she sees lack of trust etc
Even if her English is in the ok category -- much gets lost in a conversation- and easily misunderstood.

To me -it seems you have already decided . 

[Frrrrrrt]

Wut wut? What did I just read? Her total income is 300 dollars?
What is her business? Walking to every office and selling Avon or maybe monthly travelling to Turkey to bring load of cheap clothing later to sell on dirty market? Sorry, but it can't be true person living in Kiev and having business where only rent costs sh*t tonne of money to earn that less. I know situation in Ukraine pretty well and have friends all over country from Lviv to Kiev, Odessa and Kharkov and no, no one having own more or less successful business earn less than 1500 a month. 300 is salary of cash girl in random grocery store, hotel administrator, etc.
Okay, let's suppose she didn't lie and her business really gives 300 bucks monthly, so she can't even pay the rent. Then why to keep it? On her place I've close it and found job for 500 where I can drink coffee, eat cookies, make small things I have to do and without explosion in brain at 18:00 go home
Now next question. If woman earns that less, how she can afford dress to nine? Who pays for it? Look, in Ukraine even Zara and H&M cost nearly double price to Europe, brands are way way more expensive. Or she finds her clothing in charity stores like random people with 300 $ salary?
Trenchcoat, 100-150 $ is salary of person having a basic job and living in very small city, in big city for making same job person will earn twice more. Don't forget, cost of living there is also smaller than in megapolis and there no even enough options to spend lot of money. Small city people often don't even spend money on rent, they own houses or live with parents/relatives, walk to work instead of driving or paying for bus/metro, there no good quality bars, restaurants, no shopping malls or groceries with big variety of items, etc. So no, I wouldn't say lifestyle of woman from Kiev with 300 $ salary is better than someone from small place with 150$. Bigger city always mean higher salaries, but also higher cost of life. 
2tallbill, as for me, hopeless romantic is person who dreams about meeting his love for life, someone who always open door and to every small ocasion give flowers, pretty sentimental dreamer, etc. But when 2 people are from different places and without taking their time for conversation and life together just go and marry, it only means they is desperate to be with at least someone. Reasons of desperation can be different: loneliness, not being able to find partner for big amount of time, no opportunities to get better life, etc., but its still desperation. Best example is my good friend. He is local, met some girl online and they both thought:"Oh, I am already 30, everyone around already have family and child and I'm still single" and in between few months married. Okay, they made ceremony and she comes to his place. First of all she says:"Yo, I don't want live with your parents in this rat house. Rent smth nice or I move away. I expect in between few years you to buy flat, get a car and we to have decent life. And by the way, you know people here, find for me job." He says:"But I have a simple job, my salary is 400 dollars a month, how can I get all this?" Answer:"I don't care". How do you think, what happened later? Few days later when he was at work she took her clothes and gone. This happens when people are desperate to marry without not knowing person clearly, don't speak about future and have pink glasses on eyes. See, locals also can do same mistake as those to engage woman after few weeks of seeing her face to face and end is pretty much same in both situations, the only difference abroad isn't that easy to pack, go home and forget.

[krimster2]

scarface,

there seem to be some inconsistencies with this woman, and that’s ALWAYS the sign of a scammer...

unfortunately, it’s hard to pick up all the details from your narrative...
my suggestion:
create a table showing each time she requested money and how much, and for what...

any other odd situations, besides NOT meeting her family?
 

[BillyB]

A bigger problem is that her communication with me has been limited at best since I told her I would not send the money. I will hold off for now but it does not look good. Her attitude has changed and I will reach out again tomorrow and see what happens.

She probably is questioning your ability to share finances. If she were a scammer, she'd find ways to be sick, her family being sick or some emergency that is solved with money. Although she  asked for money for rent, she's never asked you to send a monthly allowance to take care of her. Some women have asked their men to buy them apartments.

I don't think anybody here can give you solid advice without actually knowing the facts. You said she's never lied to you but hint her behavior could be of a scammer. I doubt she can be honest and a scammer at the same time. If you.re reading her wrong, we will give you the wrong advice. Probably why we at the forum are all over the place with our advice.

She's your fiancée and if you love her at this moment, tell her to quit her job and you'll take care of her replacing or bettering her salary with $350-400 a month. It will show you're not stingy and able to take care of her and she can show you she's ready to drop her job to prepare for a life with you. $400 a month isn't much. An FSU woman will cost more after she arrives. If your woman is willing to work, she may eventually contribute more money than you into the relationship.

I met my wife in Ukraine but she was actually living in Libya. After we became exclusive, I sometimes sent money telling her I want her to out and have a nice meal, or buy something nice for herself. She never asked me for money and she was living with her mom who made good money working as a doctor in Libya. She fled Tripoli the day the rebels entered the city during Libya's civil war. Knowing her mom was out of a job, I offered to send them money every month to help take care of them. My wife did not ask for it.

I'm sure you wish your fiancée didn't ask for anything but she may be worried if you never shown you can take care of a wife financially. Women worry because they are going to give up their life and job for a man that they haven't spent much time with. They worry the man may fail as a husband. Us men have to be careful we don't get used by gold diggers but if we find a good woman, we have to prove we can perform the role of a husband who loves his wife more than his money.

Her total income is 300 dollars?

That's what she put on paper. She could be making more if cash sales are involved. Not everything gets reported to the government. She didn't need the extra rent money when she had a partner. The business may cost a lot to operate but there were profits to live off with until the partner got pregnant and had to stop working.

[Frrrrrrt]

Okay, but did she tell how much normally earns? Sure its typical thing to put on tax less than you really earn or have workers whom you pay cash, but fiancee is not tax man, right? Let's say she didn't need money while having partner and no troubles with rent. Then the most simple option to wait till contract for rent of building finishes and find cheaper place. She didn't have any savings to deal with this problem? If not, its absolutely bad money managing.
Point of getting pregnant and quit job is more about someone who have basic job. Normally people who have business are smart enough to understand they still will have to do all they did before if want to keep business successful. It doesn't matter are you woman, man or third gender. In case no one else can make job of second partner, find someone who can do it or let grandmother look after a child/hire a babysister. It's not simple, but if you want to earn more than average, you also have to work and think more than average people. No other options.

[scarface816]

Okay, but did she tell how much normally earns? Sure its typical thing to put on tax less than you really earn or have workers whom you pay cash, but fiancee is not tax man, right? Let's say she didn't need money while having partner and no troubles with rent. Then the most simple option to wait till contract for rent of building finishes and find cheaper place. She didn't have any savings to deal with this problem? If not, its absolutely bad money managing.
Point of getting pregnant and quit job is more about someone who have basic job. Normally people who have business are smart enough to understand they still will have to do all they did before if want to keep business successful. It doesn't matter are you woman, man or third gender. In case no one else can make job of second partner, find someone who can do it or let grandmother look after a child/hire a babysister. It's not simple, but if you want to earn more than average, you also have to work and think more than average people. No other options.

I agree. I originally brought up these issues. I said her partner should look to her husband for her half of the rent like she had done in the past. And that it was not our responsibility. I also asked how this was coming up now since her partner had been pregnant for a long time. She said she did not think about it. She even admitted she had been inconsistent.

[msmob]

Dear SF.

You have had lots of advice and only YOU and her can know what to do next.

I would not conduct this chat over video chat...you having started the visa process, you must have felt enough of a connection .

It is worth going there and looking her in the eyes

You HAVE made a committment and if you are going to break it...based on advice here..do it to her face.


Your mistake may only be your haste and her thinking you will support her every cost.

If you go there and it all goes south you have saved yourself a lot of time and grief for later.

Just say to her...look, I do not regret asking you to come to my country, but can I meet your daughter and we should agree a monthly budget..until you come..?

You need to know you are doing what YOU want and not be influenced by us.

[BillyB]

I agree. I originally brought up these issues. I said her partner should look to her husband for her half of the rent like she had done in the past. And that it was not our responsibility. I also asked how this was coming up now since her partner had been pregnant for a long time. She said she did not think about it. She even admitted she had been inconsistent.

Are you looking for validation that you're getting played? We have people on the forum that will give you validation. We also have people that will tell you that they don't see enough red flags in your fiancée. If you barely knew the woman, I'd say leave over a request of money. Since she's your fiancée, it's not inappropriate of her to ask you for money so she can continue a business that feeds her, clothe her, and puts a roof over her head, which are things you'll have to do full time eventually.

You said on page 1 your fiancée is looking for a new partner for the business since the pregnant partner is probably not going to return. Now you're telling us you told your fiancée the pregnant partner's husband should pay for half the rent. Why would you say that if she told you the pregnant partner is going to be out of the picture? She may be more upset on how your brain functioned at that time than the fact you didn't help her out. If my wife was in a partnership and announced she was quitting and her partner's spouse said I should continue to pay for half the rent, I'd think he's having a brain malfunction.

At the time she wanted to continue the business when the pregnant partner wanted out, you should have told her quit the business too and offer you'll take care of her until she gets her visa. A guy in love with a woman would've thought about that quickly to help her prepare for a life with him.

If you don't love her and don't trust her, resolve the issues or cancel the wedding. Doesn't really matter what any of us think about your woman. Whether you're right or wrong about your fiancee's character doesn't really matter either because at this time you're unsure. How you feel is what matters. You want the woman you proposed to, go all in and learn to trust her since you mentioned on page 1 the trust issues are yours. You want out, tell her goodbye.

[Omega82]

When I was in high school there was a school motto that went something like this.  "Give a man fish and feed him for one day, teach a man how to fish and feed him for his lifetime".  I understand the traditional communist mentality does not believe in planning for the future.  Additionally many people are becoming like the child that you tell them you can have an expired piece of chocolate cake now, or a fresh bigger cake tomorrow, and the child will take the expired cake today.  Why are women like this?  Why do we continue to see these stories yet we dont see any new marriages?  On the other forum I was reading about a 38 year old from the US with a six figure USD income and he was asked to spend money on a phone and groceries totaling $200 and all sorts of crap but no long term plans.  why would a Ukrainian woman pass up a reasonable 38 year old American with a six figure income?  The average salary is what $300 per month in Ukraine, but we dont see any more marriages.  On the other forum the guy was told to go seek therapy.  Very kind of the admin.  So what's really happening?  I understand nobody wants to marry their grandfather, but this guy was 38. 

[JayH]

  Hey -- what is going on here? 
"Since her daughter is 18 years old"
"It seems since she is 18 "
and this in thread above---- "toward getting her K1 and her 16 YO daughter's K2 Visa to come to the US."

 

[JayH]

   why would a Ukrainian woman pass up a reasonable 38 year old American with a six figure income?
 

How about because the guy is a tool !!
I keep saying it -- but -- so many guys are not acceptable   -be that presentation,personality,attitude.socially inept etc etc  and unfortunately I would say that is a majority online.

  The average salary is what $300 per month in Ukraine, but we dont see any more marriages.  So what's really happening?

How many times is that silly mythical idea got to be repeated ( $300 per month etc )   as a reason for a girl looking west. Even in the thread above it got debunked -- and only the idiotic keep throwing it up as a fact.  The basis of this is the promoters of the idea that  every girl is needing "rescuing" -- a concept that may( nb may) have worked 20 years ago but totally out of step today.

On this forum -- we have the forum idiot ( TC) repeating it as a fact - and a reason why he would succeed --the bottom line is that if you( or anyone) think money will seal the deal- ya better have plenty plus plenty plus plenty !

[scarface816]

Are you looking for validation that you're getting played? We have people on the forum that will give you validation. We also have people that will tell you that they don't see enough red flags in your fiancée. If you barely knew the woman, I'd say leave over a request of money. Since she's your fiancée, it's not inappropriate of her to ask you for money so she can continue a business that feeds her, clothe her, and puts a roof over her head, which are things you'll have to do full time eventually.

You said on page 1 your fiancée is looking for a new partner for the business since the pregnant partner is probably not going to return. Now you're telling us you told your fiancée the pregnant partner's husband should pay for half the rent. Why would you say that if she told you the pregnant partner is going to be out of the picture? She may be more upset on how your brain functioned at that time than the fact you didn't help her out. If my wife was in a partnership and announced she was quitting and her partner's spouse said I should continue to pay for half the rent, I'd think he's having a brain malfunction.

At the time she wanted to continue the business when the pregnant partner wanted out, you should have told her quit the business too and offer you'll take care of her until she gets her visa. A guy in love with a woman would've thought about that quickly to help her prepare for a life with him.

If you don't love her and don't trust her, resolve the issues or cancel the wedding. Doesn't really matter what any of us think about your woman. Whether you're right or wrong about your fiancee's character doesn't really matter either because at this time you're unsure. How you feel is what matters. You want the woman you proposed to, go all in and learn to trust her since you mentioned on page 1 the trust issues are yours. You want out, tell her goodbye.

Billy thanks for the response and the analysis. I am not going to try to parse this down too much but a couple of things.

"Am I looking for validation I got played?" I am looking for an indication that I was or not played. And how I reacted was or was not appropriate like I said in my OP. There are a lot of experienced guys on here and I have not encountered scenarios like this in the past. I think it makes sense to try to get some context and some ideas.

"Since she is my fiance it is not appropriate for her to ask for money?" Of course, it is appropriate and I gave her money on several occasions willingly and offered it even when she did not ask. However, it is not appropriate for someone in a committed relationship who pretends to love them to manipulate and lie to you to extract money from you and then act hurt if you refuse. And sadly this seems to be the case here. I believe you have followed this thread but not I will reiterate. I have supported love ones for many decades and continue to do so. No one has ever supported me outside of very early in my life. And I have never begrudged a woman that is with me, my support and care.

But I have limits and boundaries. And lying and manipulation is not acceptable. She could have come to me with a simple request for money and asked. SF I am short of money, things are difficult can you help me out. But instead, she created this elaborate series of scenarios to extract larger sums of money from me. And it worked.

I will cover more of your issues and others in another post.

[GenMish]

Oy Vey
Sounds like another fishy thread, and everyone gets excited telling him he was a fool. If true, who commits to a K1 and a K2 without assessing the commitment made and costs involved? At her age, $2000 is the drop in the bucket. You will need twice that per year just for her clown paint

We need younger guys here, 18-24 yrs is where the value is. 26 years ago, I was the one receiving the gifts from the families of the women that wanted to marry. I remember taking my fiancé to Nordstroms, the clown paint lady couldn't believe my FSU Bride wasn't wearing makeup. While US women were frying their faces in tanning Salons, young Russian woman kept their natural beauty. All makeup is, young women trying to look like whores, or old women trying to look young

MORE IMPORTANTLY, what 50 plus year old guy gets stuck at 2nd or 3rd base? At our age, after 1st base, we are walked to Home Plate to spend and hour. Its a rule! Women know if we spend too much time at 2nd or 3rd, we only have 10 minutes left for home plate ...LOL

[scarface816]

None of your assumptions are accurate. It appears you are looking for an excuse to insult someone and brag a little bit.

Please take your comments elsewhere.

[scarface816]

Well, I first want to say thanks to all of the people who offered perspective and advice. It has helped. There have been many opinions from"I am stupid" to "I am not supportive enough" and "I should send her more money." To the also interesting opinion that "I should have known better that everyone should have known she was lying." This is a hugely wide divergence of opinion but hey its the internet and I asked for it. It does seem like a lot of people's first inclination is to berate insult and attack. I wonder how many of these people would do this if we were sitting together in a coffee shop?

Next, I want to say that I have discovered a few other things since my initial post. And it does shed more light on the entire situation. When I started to hear actual facts about things like health care costs and office rent costs. I then become even more suspicious and of course, I then started to pull on this thread. I looked at her K1 application much more closely and saw a few other things.

It had her place of work address and I found this and it is not in the city center and it is not a very nice office building. In fact, it is not an office building at all. Although it may have office space inside. Anyone looking at this building would not pay $1900 for a single office or even $900, maybe $300. So this is another fact.

Then I found her marriage status and it showed her as single never been married not divorced. This was another fact she had never told me. And we talked about her "ex-husband" as well as my ex-wife in our many many hours of personal conversations.

Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

I tell you all of these things for a couple of reasons.

1. I entered into this relationship with serious intent and a desire to "trust" the woman I was getting to know. I had doubts at certain points like many people do but I suppressed those doubts intentionally and consciously to reaffirm my commitment to her and leave myself open for potential surprises in the future. Ergo my own trust issues and my attempt to work them out.

2. What I am basing my conclusions on is not money or the amount of money like so many on here keep insisting is my hangup. It is lying and dishonesty. The ability to trust the person that is lying next to you every night.

I have given her my complete fidelity and trust and quite a bit of money and this should account for a lot with her. But it has not since my refusal to pay her the $950 dollars she has limited communication with me and when she has communicated it is cold or a bit manipulative. This says a lot. People get hurt a lot in relationships and if they love each other they still deal with each other and try to work it out. Not try to control or punish.

A good friend of mine that I asked about this situation whose profession is to evaluate people. He told me two things "don't look at what people say look at what they do". And "test her and keep testing her, because she will be testing you and you both need to know." This is something to keep in mind if I try this again.

But right now her actions are looking pretty bad. And I must say pretty sophisticated. Do I think she cared for me? Yes. Our conversations, her interest in my personal health family business and other small things show this. But I also think she was trying to get what she could. Which is deeply troubling.

I am of course going to give her a chance to explain or make some attempt to meet me halfway on this. But I am not going to go on as I did before. She has some explaining to do. I will try to ask her carefully but I will need some answers.

No one wants to be lied to. I will be watching her actions but at this point, it is not looking good. A relationship is a two-way street and just like I have been told many times Russian women respect a man who does not let them run over them.

My mistake was going into this too quickly and without enough visits and time with the family. That's on me. Some people said I was desperate. I don't think so. A desperate person would not question these things, a desperate person would not walk away. I could have easily given her the money and did nothing else and went on about my merry way thinking everything was fine. Mistakes yes desperate no.

[2tallbill]

I assume you would offer her equivalent to what she is currently earning right?

No, she will spend less money if she isn't working. She won't be commuting
or eating for convenience. She will spend less on panty hose. Set up an
amount.

NOTE: I never did this for Angel Eyes, she required very little from me,
but I spent money on English lessons for her and her daughter. I spent
money on having her box up some of her stuff and shipping it to the
USA. There were a number of costs associated with certified translations
epistles etc. 

Tell her this is her responsibility and to stick to a budget?

No, 

You tell her that you trust her to manage this money.
She will probably squirrel away 25% of it somehow
for a rainy day.

When would this type of arrangement be set up?

You would normally do it after you did the due diligence and knew
and trusted everything about her (mostly) and becoming engaged.

It sure sounds a lot like sponsorship.

She is leaping off a building knowing/hoping that you will catch
her. She is leaving her entire safety net. Her friends, family,
language and culture.

She needs to end her business because it's not self supporting
without a partner and she is planning on leaving it behind anyway.

Also come up with a list of stuff for her to do. The last thing you
want is for a hard working, educated and intelligent woman to
be not busy.

She needs to get her education diploma's translated and certified,
others can tell you more about how to do this.

Can she drive? Maybe a few driving lessons which are less expensive
over there and she can scare the Be-Jesus out of somebody else
besides yourself.

Plan another trip to see her. You have a billion details to go over.

What's the status of her daughters father? Is he going to sign off
on her leaving?

Keep working on the due diligence and getting to know her and by
all means keep her busy.

Take a photo of your back yard, which is sadly without sufficient
flowers for a real family. Give her some links to what grows well
in your area. Keep her busy, keep her mind on planning and on
good things. 

Udachi!

Bill

[c5h]

.....
By the way I know how much she makes it is on her K1 application. 8,000 Hryvina.

This is pretty much the standard salary in Ukraine even for professional jobs due to whatever the tax laws, govt red tape is, most of the people I know there make this amount as there official salary.  They get a second payment from there employer as a USD cash bonus, or in other jobs they get bribes.  It's not a surprise that a Ukrainian would list this as there official salary on K1 app.  A web developer may make $300+ $3k bonus, police officer $300 + $500 in bribes.  When you apply for a K1 your already engaged, so you should already know the other person's finances and be certain on the relationship.

I have a Ukrainian wife in USA now.  I sent $600 before the K1, to pay for Visa fee, medical fee for K1, and help support her because she quit her job a month before she left and knew her for 2yrs+.  If she didn't happen to have a wealthy father she would not have been able to cover plane tickets, and shipping stuff here, etc on her own.  I think the rent and business situation probably isn't true, the Doctor cost is definitely not true, but she may have had legitimate needs for the funds.  She may legitimately have some concerns about your ability to support her and she is testing you.  Some of my wife's family was concerned about me, I didn't plan big wedding, honeymoon, or really do anything expensive or special for her and they thought I could playing her.

[2tallbill]

Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

You don't know why, she could have been changing her status or felt
lonely and nostalgic so she could reread all of your exchanges.

He told me two things "don't look at what people say look at what they do". And "test her and keep testing her, because she will be testing you and you both need to know." This is something to keep in mind if I try this again.

Hmmmmmmm.. . I wouldn't test her. I think that testing an FSUW
will blow up in your face. Most good girls will get pissed off about it

If she is dishonest then it will show itself, all you have to do is remember
what she says and does.

This is something to keep in mind if I try this again.

If you plan on dumping her then dump her. Don't go into a back
and forth with accusations, explanations and recriminations.

[scarface816]

Bill thanks for the advice. Your posts have been some of the best. You spell things out clearly.

As for going back and forth. I have never done that. I am either in a relationship or I am out of it. I don't play games. Remember this just happened on Tuesday.

Seems like it has been weeks. lol

[jone]

I dated a woman who on the outside looked perfect.   Kind personality.  Introduced me to her family.  Conversant.  And our time together was quite wonderful.   While I spent money on her, it was not excessive.  She had a young son and could not work a full time job so my allowance to her was to pay for the apartment she lived in.   Altogether it was, maybe, $300 per month.

She was rejected.  Twice.  For a Tourist Visa to the US.  So, instead we traveled to countries that she could go to.  And we met in St. Petersburg for an extended vacation.   

Through this all, there were a couple of nagging threads that I pulled at.  I couldn't quite put my finger on it.   She was liked by my family.   And so I began the process of bringing her to the US as my bride.

I chastised myself for overthinking the relationship.  But two things continued to stand out.  The first is that after meeting her mother a couple of times, we did not see her again.   And she never took me to her mother's home.
 
The second issue is that she continued to lose things that I would buy her.  I bought her a nicer phone than the little flip phone she had been using.   She told me that she lost the new phone in a taxi.   Oddly, she was very sophisticated with technology and this particular phone had the ability to be registered so could not be 'lost' as a locator could be turned on.

All things considered, these were minor blips despite an otherwise satisfying relationship.  Had things not digressed I'm pretty sure I would have married her and I would have entered the same living hell as her previous husband experienced with her. 

It seems my gal was the 'pass around' gal at parties.   She would go out at night, get drunk and wind up with whomever happened to be present.   I only found out about this because one of her friends whom I had gotten to know pretty well explained what had happened in her marriage.  She would get her husband to watch their son and return in the morning.   Guys, girls, it didn't matter.   She lived to party.  While she was not an alcoholic, she was addicted to partying.

Now, for some guys, this would be exquisite.  A stunningly beautiful Russian woman who was fun to be with.   But, I talked to her family members and found out that this fault was extreme.   The reason her mother would not be part of her life is that her mother considered her to be a 'bad' girl.   (As a matter of interest, eventually, her mother and ex husband took over care for the son and this gal shed her maternal responsibilities.)

Taken in one or two week stints together, this party girl lifestyle was something to behold.   It could entice any guy - and did me.   But  I could see the handwriting on the wall after confronting her a couple of times when we were apart.  I stopped the relationship.   It was not easy.   But I could see no future whereby I would be happy.  Who wants a woman who cannot be loyal to the man she is with?

A year after we split up, she married a guy from San Francisco.  I was told this by some of her friends from her home city whom I was still in contact with.   Upon marrying this guy she started up her late night shenanigans in a new city.   Within two years, she was still married but living apart.   I'm assuming waiting to get a green card.  Her son is still in Russia.

The reason for putting this all down in this thread is the reiteration of the continued advice I gave above.   Until you actually live with a woman you don't know what type of relationship you have forged.  Had I not engaged her friends in dialogue I would have never been able to put the scenario together.   It made me wonder if the guy she wound up with ever did his due diligence.   I think not as they were married three months into the relationship.

For those reading this, the gal always claimed fidelity and loyalty throughout the relationship.  What hurt the most is that her actions belied her oaths of love.  This experience pushed me in a different direction.  And now, years later, I am thankful for it.

[scarface816]

Jone,

What an amazing story. It is proof that you did your due diligence and saved yourself from a lifetime of misery if you had married her.

Maybe Krimster is right. You have to look at this as a fun adventure and not take it too seriously.

Do your due diligence and then after quality time together and learning about her family and friends then make a decision on what you should do.

[fathertime]

Maybe Krimster is right. You have to look at this as a fun adventure and not take it too seriously.
 

Yes that is a good attitude to take in my opinion. 

Fathertime!