Afghanistan

[BillyB]

The key fact is the US has completed its withdrawal. 

Is that what our government is saying now?

Former Admiral and now congressman pleads for Congress to get back from vacation and help evacuate Americans. He said his constituents are still stuck there trying to get out. One mother tried a last time to get to the Airport. The Taliban put a gun to her head and said if she comes back, they'll kill her. The Taliban beat her 15 yo son. Congressman said they tried to contact State Dept for help and did not get it. Our State Dept are letting Taliban dictate things and won't help our citizens get out.  I wonder how motivated our media is going to be on reporting future deaths and rapes. Taliban will see every American we left behind as abandoned and free to do as they wish.

http://t.me/KanekoaTheGreat/1485

http://t.me/CodeMonkeyZ/1346


Dead America soldiers getting unloaded off the plane. Biden checking his watch. I guess he has more important events to attend.

http://t.me/behizy/1208


Almost 100 Afghanis brought to America on terror watch list.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9924131/Up-100-Afghan-evacuees-flown-war-torn-Kabul-terror-watch-lists-official-warns.html

[Gator]

A small, but significant portion of the population received an education.  A huge accomplishment.
Many women were educated.  An extraordinary accomplishment.
65% literacy among the younger generation. Wow..

Certainly important given the median age in Afghanistan is 18 years.  Much of the education likely resulted from foreign aid.  Now what?

 

A brief sense of human and women's rights passed on.  A huge accomplishment.

Yes, but will the Taliban continue this movement?

Diverse peoples from many nations got to know each other, whether at the markets in Kabul, schools, and military. Friendships were formed. A huge accomplishment.
Some language barriers were overcome.  A huge accomplishment.
Communications, and even the internet, introduced to many. A huge accomplishment.
Exchanges of culture, music and arts.  A huge accomplishment.
Introduction of other forms of governance.  A huge accomplishment.
Many thousands of their citizens now live in other countries, many will remain active in the interests of their homeland. A huge accomplishment.

A benefit enjoyed by 0.01% of Afghani people. 

An otherwise ignored nation was put on the world map, gaining international attention.  A huge accomplishment.

The international attention has reinforced the fact that Afghanistan is a place to avoid, unless you are a Chinese minerals company.

Frankly Afghanistan was more appealing in 1977 when I visited it briefly as a tourist from nearby Iran where I worked.

New diplomatic channels emerging from many nations with new leaders there.  A huge accomplishment.

What?  Diplomatic channels have relocated and downsized.

.... and many things even the Taliban cannot ignore or completely suppress....The Taliban got what they wanted, so now it's up to them to prove they're up to the task, and up to the people of Afghanistan to adapt, and change from within if they so desire, on their timeline and not ours.

Next door in Iran how has this same sentiment grown over the past 40+ years into something meaningful?  My opinion remains the same.  Ignore the Middle East.  The Middle East is not a threat.  Leave them alone and allow them stay busy killing each other.  Stay energy independent.  Focus on how to compete with China.
 

With all the doom and gloom being forecasted, all the recriminations, misgivings and blame being passed about, thought I would just throw this hasty post out as food for thought.

Our involvement was a waste, eventually stopped by Trump and completed by Biden. 

America has gained nothing, and the Afghan people will regress to a level not far above where they were at the start of this Century.   

[2tallbill]

The Pentagon has admitted perhaps as many as 250 Americans who wanted to
leave Kabul are stranded there, as the US flew its final evacuation from Afghanistan
and ended its 20-year military presence.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-military-afghanistan-exit-civilians-b1911399.html


Americans are losing faith in Biden on many issues
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/28/politics/biden-afghanistan-polling-analysis/index.html

[BillyB]

Biden's speech today called the mission an extraordinary success while blaming Trump and others.


Private groups of ex special operations personnel says Biden's State Department blocking their attempts to rescue more Americans. State Department telling bordering countries not to let them use their airbases to evacuate Americans.


http://twitter.com/SebGorka/status/1432718955576270862?s=20



Father of dead soldier said Biden looked down at his watch for each of the 13 soldiers that came out of the plane.


Social media blocking mother of dead soldier from complaining about Biden. I guess media and social media are going back to silencing people they disagree with and making Biden look good. Propaganda on the rise and 1st Amendment is being taken away from us.

[Gator]

Biden's speech today called the mission an extraordinary success while blaming Trump and others.

GQ beat Biden to this news story a couple of days ago.  That GQ could be a journalist.

Private groups of ex special operations personnel says Biden's State Department blocking their attempts to rescue more Americans. State Department telling bordering countries not to let them use their airbases to evacuate Americans.

Fox showed about 15 video clips of Biden saying, "Leave no one behind"

Father of dead soldier said Biden looked down at his watch for each of the 13 soldiers that came out of the plane.

Evidently a technique to prevent nodding off to sleep.

Social media blocking mother of dead soldier from complaining about Biden. I guess media and social media are going back to silencing people they disagree with and making Biden look good. Propaganda on the rise and 1st Amendment is being taken away from us.

Let me guess, Twitter?

[BillyB]

Let me guess, Twitter?

I know it was Facebook and Instagram. Not sure if she posts at twitter. Here's her letter that someone screenshot. I don't see any reason for it to be deleted. The college dropouts working as fact checkers on social media probably didn't want it to go viral. They didn't just censor her, they suspended her accounts. Millions of people's accounts have been deleted in the last 8 months. This is abolishing the 1st Amendment, modern day book burning and the erasing of history all rolled into one.

http://t.me/joeoltmann/1134

http://t.me/patriotstreetfighter/1700

Fox showed about 15 video clips of Biden saying, "Leave no one behind"

Here's a Mar 2020 tweet of Biden saying that. He truly is a man of words. Too bad he's not a man of his words.

http://t.me/praying_medic/4737

[tfcrew]

Biden's speech today called the mission an extraordinary success...

Well..it was [at least for the Taliban]  

[tfcrew]

Well..it was [at least for the Taliban]

Taliban parade as Biden defends US pullout               

The Taliban Wednesday paraded some of the military hardware they captured during their takeover of Afghanistan, hours after US President Joe Biden defended his decision to end the two-decade war.
The Islamist hardliners are celebrating Monday's final withdrawal of US troops as a historic victory after taking control of Afghanistan last month following an astonishing two-week offensive that capped a simmering 20-year insurgency.
On Wednesday a long line of green Humvees and armoured fighting vehicles drove in single file along a highway outside Kandahar -- the spiritual birthplace of the militant movement -- many with white-and-black Taliban flags attached to aerials, an AFP journalist saw.
In footage posted on a pro-Taliban account of the build-up to the parade, a helicopter flew overhead trailing the Taliban's standard as fighters wrapped in headscarves waved beneath.
At least one Black Hawk helicopter has been seen flying over Kandahar in recent days, suggesting someone from the former Afghan army was at the controls as the Taliban lack pilots.

MORE...   

http://today.rtl.lu/news/world/a/1779608.html

I wonder how many of the Afghan army joined the Taliban to avoid retribution? 

[GQBlues]

Whoo! Must be free brown cookie day for the 'Pee'-hackers!!

Awesome evac operation, I must say...122,000 evacuated, and I know, Phackers are moaning about those 100+ left behind that couldn't for some odd reason, get to KIA for the past 17 months.

But, thanks for the help of the Taliban, many Americans and legal residents we secretly escorted from a pre-agreed rendezvous points around the city, and unto an established passage into the airport, away & separately from the crowd into the hands of waiting US troops.

There will be ensuing reliance upon the Taliban for continued facilitation of US citizens and green card holders to leave Afghanistan safely. The hope is the Taliban are also true to their word that there would be no retribution brought to its people, and all those wishing to leave, will be allowed to do so. The latter remains to be seen.

I'm happy this silly war is finally ended! Congratulations on an incredible, unprecedented evacuation operation never before seen in this massive scale!

I'm happy too there was never any need for any urban warfare, Mogadishu-style and all that silly jazz!   

[2tallbill]

[Gator]

Taliban parade as Biden defends US pullout   

The Taliban should not be celebrating.  The nation they now command is about to enter a humanitarian crisis. 

We know about supply chain disruptions in the US due to COVID.  Imagine the chain problems in Afghanistan.  This will be experienced mostly in urban areas.  The rural areas where people live on $2/day will hopefully see little change.

That is why Trump and Biden both wanted some form of government sharing between the Taliban and the former government.  Some sense of order could have been maintained under a shared arrangement. 

Now almost everything will come to a halt because the Taliban wanted complete power, and took it without a fight.    I do not predict a Kmer Rouge emptying of the cities, yet some human suffering is inevitable as a new form of governance unfolds. 

[Trenchcoat]

Taliban about to announce new government/cabinet with no women in it Like a breath of fresh air, now why can't we have it like that

[2tallbill]

Taliban about to announce new government/cabinet with no women in it
Like a breath of fresh air, now why can't we have it like that

[fathertime]

The Taliban should not be celebrating.  The nation they now command is about to enter a humanitarian crisis. 

Who are you to say what the Taliban should/should not be doing?   They have ridded their nation of US troops, and hopefully interference.   

We shall see if we start attempting to disrupt their country with sanctions.  I'm sure they will have enough issues without us making matters worse. 

We know about supply chain disruptions in the US due to COVID.  Imagine the chain problems in Afghanistan.  This will be experienced mostly in urban areas.  The rural areas where people live on $2/day will hopefully see little change.
 

The supply chain is already causing issues here in the states. A record 44 ships were parked in front of the port here yesterday.   Not enough labor of course to unload them fast enough.    We have our own problems, no need to fret over Afghanistan, they can figure it out themselves.  Can we figure out our own issues? 

Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

Although direct evacuations are over, and others should be ongoing for some time to come, maybe a little reflection is needed as to what happened, by design or not, as far as the Afghan people are concerned.

A small, but significant portion of the population received an education.  A huge accomplishment.
Many women were educated.  An extraordinary accomplishment.
65% literacy among the younger generation. Wow..
A brief sense of human and women's rights passed on.  A huge accomplishment.
Diverse peoples from many nations got to know each other, whether at the markets in Kabul, schools, and military. Friendships were formed. A huge accomplishment.
Some language barriers were overcome.  A huge accomplishment.
Communications, and even the internet, introduced to many. A huge accomplishment.
Exchanges of culture, music and arts.  A huge accomplishment.
Introduction of other forms of governance.  A huge accomplishment.
Many thousands of their citizens now live in other countries, many will remain active in the interests of their homeland. A huge accomplishment.
An otherwise ignored nation was put on the world map, gaining international attention.  A huge accomplishment.
New diplomatic channels emerging from many nations with new leaders there.  A huge accomplishment.

Sure, all the above regards relatively few, there will be some steps back now, some limitations that may be severe and difficult, even violent, but seeds have been planted and at least some reassurances by their new leaders that some things may 'stick'; like education for women albeit segregated, almost unheard of decades ago.  Actually a lot, unheard of decades ago from their POV and many things even the Taliban cannot ignore or completely suppress. 

Like any other nation, lasting change will take time, and time passes slowly in those parts of the world. But the process has been given a boost, even if it doesn't quench our desires for instant satisfaction. The international community has leverage and can help if deserved.  The Taliban got what they wanted, so now it's up to them to prove they're up to the task, and up to the people of Afghanistan to adapt, and change from within if they so desire, on their timeline and not ours.

I hope we learned a lot as well. The toll was high, high enough to remember for some time to come. 

With all the doom and gloom being forecasted, all the recriminations, misgivings and blame being passed about, thought I would just throw this hasty post out as food for thought.

 


Good post, BC!


Yeah, this must be more than an awakening for the 9/11 Afghan generation who had never known the Taliban/Sharia law rule. Wishing them the very best life forward!!!

[fathertime]

I'm happy this silly war is finally ended! Congratulations on an incredible, unprecedented evacuation operation never before seen in this massive scale!

If that type of narrative were to hit the public news stations it would ruin the conservative phony narrative...which is what they actually care about more than anything else.

Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

If that type of narrative were to hit the public news stations it would ruin the conservative phony narrative...which is what they actually care about more than anything else.

Fathertime!

The country is deeply divided, FT. What happened, and what we all laid witnessed to the past decade, more importantly the past 5 years, had made this divide literally unrepairable I'm afraid.

As for Afghanistan, hindsight is 100%. Had Bush not deny and forego the Taliban total surrender back in late 2001 since we not only decimated the Al Qaeda network in Afghanistan and knew Osama had already fled the country, and actually found the need to work with them, we would never have seen nearly the mess we have today.

Of course, had Trump had the oatmeal between his ears to demand inclusion of the Afghan government in the stupid deal, we would never had to lay witness to the massive violence against Afghans that follow, and likely the additional deaths of the 13 soldiers.

True to form, and to prove how intensely moronic Trump had become: He said two days ago we should reinvade Afghanistan to retrieve all the equipment we left behind if the Taliban refuses to give them up. That we should bomb the crap out of the country!!!


 

[Trenchcoat]

That's harsh Bill, very, very, harsh.

[2tallbill]

That's harsh Bill, very, very, harsh.

You were hoping for a reaction

I didn't want to turn this into a beat up Trench thread maybe
we side stepped it this time. 

Here is a cheeky GIF of Daryl Hanna in Splash (but don't look at it.) 
http://tinyurl.com/2txsm9bs

[Gator]

As for Afghanistan, hindsight is 100%. Had Bush not deny and forego the Taliban total surrender back in late 2001 since we not only decimated the Al Qaeda network in Afghanistan and knew Osama had already fled the country, and actually found the need to work with them, we would never have seen nearly the mess we have today.

Same as my point with my first post in this thread - namely for the past 20 years we should have continued to work with the many warlords rather than try to create a centralized government. 

The Taliban controlled Kabul in 2001 and refused to give us OBL.   So, we could not do in 2001 what you suggest, namely work with a central Taliban.   

Yet within Afghanistan were many warlords also not wanting to be subjected to Taliban rule.  In fact, a few of these warlords in NE Afghanistan formed the ground forces to attack Taliban positions in coordination with US airpower.   This is akin to Trump's destruction of ISIS in Syria where in short order our Kurdish allies working with US units surrounded Baghdai and killed him.

This warlord approach in 2001-02 did not kill the Taliban leaders yet pushed them into Pakistan  and remote enclaves.  There they rebuilt and grew to fight NATO and Afghan forces on a growing basis.   Meanwhile Bush-Obama tried to build a democracy complete with a centralized military.   

Of course, had Trump had the oatmeal between his ears to demand inclusion of the Afghan government in the stupid deal....

Trump sought in 2020 a bipartisan government to allow an organized, secure withdrawal of Americans and military.   

...we would never had to lay witness to the massive violence against Afghans that follow, and likely the additional deaths of the 13 soldiers.

"Massive violence?"  Just wait. 

And the deaths of 13 soldiers?  Their deaths are on Biden's hands due to his dumb "battlefield" decisions in executing the withdrawal.    Very few people believe their deaths were due to Trump's decision.  Trump got the ball rolling towards what you wanted - end of America's participation in the Afghan war.

True to form, and to prove how intensely moronic Trump had become:

Don't concern yourself with Trump.   We have here in Florida better candidates than Trump. 

[Trenchcoat]

You were hoping for a reaction

I didn't want to turn this into a beat up Trench thread maybe
we side stepped it this time. 

Here is a cheeky GIF of Daryl Hanna in Splash (but don't look at it.) 
http://tinyurl.com/2txsm9bs

Not at all, just refreshing to see an alternate way things can be, there's just so much emphasis on putting the female up there these days but I think it just causes imbalance between the sexes and more unhappiness. Not an attempt to troll at all.

Daryl Hannah was quite hot back in the day though I always thought she had a slight mannish look in her face.

[BC]

Gator,

IIRC even the Taliban has not one, but very many heads.  In your opinion was talking to one slightly bigger head back then the same as talking to all?  Were some heads more supportive of ISIS and others not?

As for today, that may be one of the challenges the Taliban has is being able to talk, and govern as one.

I mention this after reading GQ's and your posts, maybe something not factored in the convo?

[Gator]

BC, your questions expand the complexity of the situation.  I do not intend to suggest this is too complicated to analyze.  IMO it is rather simple - the "strongman" will rule in a setting of tribalism and religious extremism. 

IIRC even the Taliban has not one, but very many heads. 

Exactly.  The Taliban has several factions scattered around Afghanistan and in Pakistan.  Their public photo ops such as the one in the  Presidential Palace show motley group of leaders, not a dominant single figure.  And that particular "leadership team" would be just the faction(s) that occupied Kabul.  And that meeting was labeled just as handing over the Palace, and not the "power." There have been no photos of taking over power. 

(16:30 mark)

OTOH, the Taliban negotiated a "peace" agreement with Trump, called by some a surrender.  That says central leadership.

Regardless of how the Taliban is organized, Afghanistan itself remains a tribal society.  The largest tribe is the Pashtun, and most Taliban are Pashtun.  Here comes the rub:  the Pashtun live under a code that predates Islam (Google "Pashtunwali").   Will there be a conflict between religious extremism and tribalism?   
 

In your opinion was talking to one slightly bigger head back then the same as talking to all?

"Back then" being 2001 when the US asked Afghanistan to give OBL to us?    I don't know if we talked to the elusive Omar. 

Were some heads more supportive of ISIS and others not?

ISIS was not present in 2001, but of course Al Qaeda the parent of ISIS was firmly entrenched in the eastern mountainous region bordering Pakistan.  IMO that would not have happened without broad Taliban support.  In the pursuit of OBL we fought both the Taliban and Al Qaeda.   
 

As for today, that may be one of the challenges the Taliban has is being able to talk, and govern as one.

The Doha agreement says the Taliban can reach international agreements.  In addition, the Taliban demonstrated some sense of central leadership by not attacking Americans over the past year, and particularly the past couple of weeks when we were fish in a barrel. 

OTOH I ask myself if centralized government is necessary in Afghanistan, a tribal society with 14 ethnic groups?  I would imagine negotiating mineral deals with the Chinese would be done by local warlord and the local Qadi  (Sharia magistrate) for each mine, with  participation by the top Taliban leadership.  With whom would an international aid agency negotiate - maybe just the city where the project is planned?  But WFP food trucks would need to pass through other tribes.  Of course decisions about stoning, decapitation and dismemberment will be made at the local level based on the local interpretaion of Sharia.

I do not intend to suggest this is too complicated to analyze.  It is rather simple - the "strongman" will rule.  I have no idea who will be the strongman.  And I laugh about whether they will have rule of law.

I mention this after reading GQ's and your posts, maybe something not factored in the convo?

I am unsure of GQ's point and how it supports his claim that Trump is responsible for the deaths of 13 service members.  The discussion between GQ and me seems to be one of talking past each other.

[GQBlues]

I am unsure of GQ's point and how it supports his claim that Trump is responsible for the deaths of 13 service members.  The discussion between GQ and me seems to be one of talking past each other.

Not really. One of us simply refuses to exercise petty partisanship in this matter. Too many lives at stake. I’ve said more than a few times, we can simply agree to disagree.

[2tallbill]

Several California Public School Students Are Still Trapped In Afghanistan
http://www.npr.org/2021/09/01/1033294030/american-students-afghanistan-sacramento-san-juan-district


Six in 10 US voters think America has gone seriously off track: polls
Only 12 percent said they “strongly approve” and 18 percent that they “somewhat
approve” of the Biden administration’s handling of Afghanistan.
http://nypost.com/2021/09/01/majority-of-us-voters-think-america-has-gone-off-track-poll/