Afghanistan

[2tallbill]

So easily triggered

Fathertime!

So easy to ignore when you can't make a point or stay with it.

[2tallbill]

Americans' harsh judgment on Afghanistan costs Biden's approval, down to 41%
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/24/afghanistan-woes-sink-bidens-approval-41-usa-today-suffolk-poll/8244854002/

Do you want to dive into the poll? Here are the all the details
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21046968-210188-nbc-news-august-poll-8-22-21-release

[GQBlues]

Bill-

Biden’s lowered approval rate have very little to do with Afghanistan. It has most to do in his handling of the economy and the pandemic.

[2tallbill]

Bill-

Biden’s lowered approval rate have very little to do with Afghanistan. It has most to do
in his handling of the economy and the pandemic.

I agree, Afghanistan was just icing on the cake. Next month it might be even lower
Biden still hasn't made a correct decision domestically since he has been president.
The press have been covering for Biden nationally but they can only fool those that
allow themselves to be fooled.

Dementia-Boy Biden has allowed far left wing group think to dictate national policies
and only 100% of those policies are bad. The Dem's are going to pay a price for allowing
the left wing loons to run the asylum.

[Gator]

GQ, thanks for the issue by issue response to the post I wrote about your lists of faults with Trump's effect in Afghanistan.

I missed your point with some of your responses.   Some responses seemed deflective to me, and a couple outright absurd.  Yet, some are reasonable questions and I will try to answer.

... then sent the ‘90s Taliban that we understood they don’t answer to us, but if they didn’t want to give up OBL, we can never be BFF anymore.

Your parody sounds just like what Biden did.  Biden is asking the Taliban for security and giving them lists of Americans who likely will be stranded after we withdraw.

On 9-11 the Taliban controlled Kabul and the area surrounding OBL.  Bush demanded they give up OBL.  When the Taliban refused, we invaded in a strategy similar to Trump's destruction of ISIS in Syria. 

Afghanistan didn’t have ruling body all of the past 20 years after our occupation. No need to exaggerate.

Not the West's concept of a ruling body because Afghanistan has been ruled more as a tribal-warlord-Emirate culture forever.  I explained this US mistake in my first posts in this thread.

The US should've insisted in the inclusion of the legitimate Afghan government for the future of Afghanistan against a band of militants.

I thought Trump's planning included exactly this.  So what should the US have done when the Taliban refused to work with the elected government operating in Kabul?  The choices were: a) withdraw anyway, b) maintain a modest American force in Afghanistan subjected to increasing Taliban attacks, or c) Surge II.

WHAT OPTION WOULD YOU HAVE CHOSEN AND HOW WOULD THE RESULTS DIFFER FROM TODAY?

 

[Gator]

GQ, I have more but something else is taking precedence.

[fathertime]

Bill-

Biden’s lowered approval rate have very little to do with Afghanistan. It has most to do in his handling of the economy and the pandemic.

If no recession hits during biden's first time, I'd be surprised.  Trump had the bad timing of the pandemic hit the economy during his reign, now biden may also have a recession hit as well.  I have sensed a slowing of business in the last 2-3 months, and many of the people that come around are feeling it as well.  Nothing critical, but a definite slowing, at least here in SoCal.   

Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

American citizens approaching the airport were beat by the Taliban and told not to come back unless they brought money. Since the Taliban is active in delaying the evacuation of American citizens, the Taliban offers to extend Aug 31st deadline if Biden unfreeze their funds. Whether Biden abandons Americans or give in to terrorist's demands, they successfully made Biden look like a fool and weak....again.




Our government said they killed two ISIS planners as retaliation but couldn't give us names. This Pentagon spokesperson is lying his ass off.


http://t.me/TheStormHasArrived17/4962



Retired special operations vets performed rescue missions without out government's permission.


This Afghanistan ordeal is too much for Biden to handle. As the Israeli PM was talking to him, Biden fell asleep.



http://t.me/behizy/1200

[Gator]

GQ, completing my thoughts on comments from your post.

Actually no, it isn't. That would even make Trump's action even dumber then right? Why bother lifting a arms embargo if they already are being armed by someone anyway, right?

The Taliban essentially originated in Pakistan.  Pakistan and the Taliban have been coooperating ever since Taliban's founder Mullah Mohammad Omar started recruiting his fighters there.  ISI has never stopped supporting Omar and his Taliban succesors

Not true. Al Qaeda, ISIS-K, Taliban commanders were part of the 5,000 released that immediately went to battle. There were additional militants of the same group at Bagram, but the majority were already engaged3 in the field.

I know there were two prisons.  I do not know the split in numbers betweeen the two, so if you have a good source, please elaborate.   As part of our withdrawal we transferred operation of these two prisons over to Afghan forces, and it seems the next day the Afghan forces abandoned the prisons, freeing the prisoners.

Bagram would've been less dangerous? Really? Explain. LMAO. The area would've been much more isolated, easier to choke-off. It would be even harder for SIVs to get to, much less American citizens and NATO allies.

 
You would understand if 1) you have some experience of walking around in centuries-old bazaars, souks, alleys and dwellings of Middle East cities and 2) you had some training in military defensive strategies.  It is well accepted that urban combat is the most dangerous (e. g.,  Mogadishu).

But I will wait for you to explain it yourself because even Gen. Milley & Sec. Austin, much more in touch with the conditions at the time more than you and me combined, believed KIA was an easier, much better area to protect and manage.

As I stated earlier when generals start striving to add more stars they become political.  As such, most f toorget how say "no" because "no" requires their resignation.   It will be interesting to learn who said what and when, although I doubt the truth will ever be known.  Generals and politicians protect each other, partly because everyone has "dirt" on the other. 

March 1, 2020 was the beginning of the Taliban advance against the Afghan govt. In hindsight, no one expected them to fall that ‘fast’.  Biden and his military advisors didn't either. Yet everyone blames him for the collapse. ....‘Falling that fast’ is a matter of interpretation anyway.

They surrendered even quicker than the Italians in WWII.  I explained why in my first posts in this thread.

NYT issued a report of this very reality. They gave zero field military support. We equipped an under-trained army and without warning, suddenly pulled the rug from underneath them.

And how much did we waste year after year after year in training and equipping the Afghan national Army?  Blame the generals who reported to DC that the development of an effective Army was progressing well and all the US govt needed to do was continue to fund it.


GQ, I too am upset with Trump for what he did after he lost the election.  However, that is another story entirely, and should not influence an analysis of what is happening in Afghanistan.  Do you not find it odd that CNN is more critical of Biden than you are? 

Could it be you and I have reached the point of talking past each other?  If so, such dialogue rarely yields reasonable resolution of issues. 

For some balanced bipartisan analysis, I have appreciated what Representatives Moulton and Meijer have reported. 

[2tallbill]

they successfully made Biden look like a fool and weak....again.

Democratic Party International Negotiations Course 101:
1. Concede Defeat
2. Pay them off
3. Lather, Rinse and Repeat

[mhr7]

Democratic Party International Negotiations Course 101:
1. Concede Defeat
2. Pay them off
3. Lather, Rinse and Repeat

Trump made the decision to pull troops out of Afghanistan and Ted Cruz backed him. I wasn't a fan of the decision and certainly didn't back Biden in actually doing it.

[2tallbill]

Bill-

Biden’s lowered approval rate have very little to do with Afghanistan. It has most to do
in his handling of the economy and the pandemic.

The economy, the pandemic, the Southern border, skyrocketing inflation, higher energy costs,
record crime and letting bad actors like China and Iran take advantage of us. Biden's mismanagement  has assured us that we will have hostages.

Biden makes Jimmy Carter look good!

A stagflation swamp: Joe Biden is Jimmy Carter 2.0
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/a-stagflation-swamp-joe-biden-is-jimmy-carter-2-0

[GQBlues]

GQ, completing my thoughts on comments from your post.

The Taliban essentially originated in Pakistan.  Pakistan and the Taliban have been coooperating ever since Taliban's founder Mullah Mohammad Omar started recruiting his fighters there.  ISI has never stopped supporting Omar and his Taliban succesors

Geez..even my neighbor’s parakeet knew that.

I know there were two prisons.  I do not know the split in numbers betweeen the two, so if you have a good source, please elaborate.   As part of our withdrawal we transferred operation of these two prisons over to Afghan forces, and it seems the next day the Afghan forces abandoned the prisons, freeing the prisoners.

1. Prison operation transfer began way back early on Obama’s first term as a result of Iraq's Abu Graib prison scandal. Mainstream media doesn’t cover this so I’m sure you’ll need to do deeper research.

2. There are more than a few prisons that held combatants under Afghan control. ISIS-K stronghold was in jalalabad. They attempted to free Isis prisoners there last year via car bombing. It jailed thousands of ISIS fighters that surrendered during the Afghan offensive supported by NATO forces.

3. The prison in Bagram is actually called Parwan prison due to its location. Parwan province. Max occupancy was 1700+/-. When the US left, the jail only held in the high 900s.

4. The bigger prison east of Kabul, which held 5,000 prisoners that included ISIS and Al Qaeda fighters is called called Pul e Charkhi. An hour and a half away from Bagram. So gullible Americans who only rely on daily fake news feed to rile partisan hacks, would read feeds that this prison is what is in Bagram.

Here’s a sample of fake news: http://news.yahoo.com/video-shows-thousands-prisoners-reportedly-160907873.html

Afghan government troops surrendered Bagram airbase to the Taliban early on Sunday. The base houses Pul-e-Charki prison, which has around 5,000 prisoners. It is the largest in Afghanistan and notorious for its poor conditions. A maximum-security cellblock held members of al Qaeda and Taliban, said reports

I attached a Google Earth snapshot showing where both Bagram Air Base is from this prison. I won’t be surprised you relied on this media, or one just like it to believe ISIS prisoners came out of Bagram. 

5. Pul e charkhi is where Talibans executed Omar Khorasani soon after his release. Omar is one of ISIS leader in Afghanistan. Not long after that, the Talibans admitted their blunder when they realize they released thousands of ISIS fighters from that prison.

6. John Kirby came out lying to his teeth when he said the US had notified the Afghan commander all along that they were abandoning Bagram. Afghan commander disputes it. When the US left, they turned off the electricity in the base, rendering all security and surveillance inoperative. They also left the freaking gates wide open. Two hours later when the Afghan force came, there were looters looting the place. So the US didn't transfer control to the Afghans when they left Bagram. As for Pul e Charkhi, Trump administration pressured Ghani to do it.

You would understand if 1) you have some experience of walking around in centuries-old bazaars, souks, alleys and dwellings of Middle East cities and 2) you had some training in military defensive strategies.  It is well accepted that urban combat is the most dangerous (e. g.,  Mogadishu).

OY! That’s your take how Bagram in your mind was the better place to use for the evacuation?

Gator, the US is not engaging in urban warfare during an evacuation operation, okay? Get a grip. So Mogadishu have ZERO to do in this situation. We are two days away from ending an evacuation operation that is incredibly successful in the UNPRECEDENTED manner with the sheer number of evacuated people, and aside from Trump’s released ISIS prisoner that killed 13 of our soldiers and 170 afghans, there had been little to no violent engagement. The US needed troops to protect the airport and crowd control. They didn’t sent troops to engage a firefight in the streets of Kabul. So your * defensive strategies* wasn’t necessary, nor walking around in some century-old Middle East bazaar.

Unbelievable.

Other than that, your response was pretty entertaining. I admit, I chuckled.

As I stated earlier when generals start striving to add more stars they become political.  As such, most f toorget how say "no" because "no" requires their resignation.   It will be interesting to learn who said what and when, although I doubt the truth will ever be known.  Generals and politicians protect each other, partly because everyone has "dirt" on the other.

It doesn’t really matter. They already established the fall guy. 

They surrendered even quicker than the Italians in WWII.  I explained why in my first posts in this thread.

Waste of bandwidth.

And how much did we waste year after year after year in training and equipping the Afghan national Army?  Blame the generals who reported to DC that the development of an effective Army was progressing well and all the US govt needed to do was continue to fund it.

Afghans are the victims of our invasion. They didn’t exactly asked us to invade their country and subject them to two decades of war, not to mention this now pending Taliban onslaught.

GQ, I too am upset with Trump for what he did after he lost the election.  However, that is another story entirely, and should not influence an analysis of what is happening in Afghanistan.

I doubt anyone here supported this idiot more than I did. What he’s done post-election and to Afghanistan is simply tragic.

Do you not find it odd that CNN is more critical of Biden than you are? 

No. It’s losing massive amounts of money. So it had to do what it does best, crank out fake news so gullible Americans  have something to swallow every day.

For some balanced bipartisan analysis, I have appreciated what Representatives Moulton and Meijer have reported.

I don’t. I think they’re a couple of inconsiderate buffoons. To pull a stunt like what they did is idiotic during a frantic, chaotic period in a country at war. Then actually have the stupid audacity to take two seats in a plane that someone else could’ve use.

[GQBlues]

I thought Trump's planning included exactly this.  So what should the US have done when the Taliban refused to work with the elected government operating in Kabul?  The choices were: a) withdraw anyway, b) maintain a modest American force in Afghanistan subjected to increasing Taliban attacks, or c) Surge II.WHAT OPTION WOULD YOU HAVE CHOSEN AND HOW WOULD THE RESULTS DIFFER FROM TODAY?

LMAO. Is this a trick question?

The deal was nothing but a heavily-skewed, massive carrot to the Taliban. There was nothing in it that even remotely favored the legitimate government of Afghanistan. Heavens the only thing missing in that 'peace deal' was a lifetime membership to Trump National.

At the very least, if the Afghan government was not going to be part of that negotiation, then negotiate a 'no violence to Afghan government/force' clause in the deal.

People got all riled up about the US pulling troops out of the country, but little is said why that was even done. There were thousands of US-contracted civilian security contractors, not including TCNs actively working in Afghanistan. NATO force was still at 7,000 strong. Biden wanted US troops out of harm's way as much as possible.

You folks ought to start reading about the US's shadow army. They are at every freaking war we engage in because it is widely preferred by our military for a multitude of reasons, a) it is far less 'political', b) the media doesn't cover them, c) they are not bound and confined by military creed, etc...

http://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-inside-militarys-secret-undercover-army-1591881

http://www.businessinsider.com/americas-army-of-contractors-is-withdrawing-from-afghanistan-too-2021-5
So when Gen. Milley tells you they don't have an accurate number of Americans still in Afghanistan...or Americans who doesn't want to leave...that's the reason why.

[BillyB]

Our government said they killed two ISIS planners as retaliation but couldn't give us names. This Pentagon spokesperson is lying his ass off.

http://t.me/TheStormHasArrived17/4962

I heard a report that we killed an interpreter and his family. Probably why the Pentagon doesn't have answers. We don't have ground troops to identify those in the house before the strike so who did the verification? It's possible we relied on that the Taliban for intelligence. We gave them a list of people we want to take back to America. The Taliban probably directed our missiles to hit the house of an interpreter who helped us. Our government eager to punish those who killed our troops took the bait. Taliban made us look incompetent again.

[BillyB]

9 Civilians, 6 are children dead from American missile attack. Pentagon still refuses to tell us who is giving us the intel on which targets to attack.


http://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/bidens-drone-strike-killed-an-entirely-innocent-family-of-9/

[BC]

97 countries issued a joint statement regarding onward evacuations.  I hope it works as stated.

http://www.state.gov/joint-statement-on-afghanistan-evacuation-travel-assurances/

We are all committed to ensuring that our citizens, nationals and residents, employees, Afghans who have worked with us and those who are at risk can continue to travel freely to destinations outside Afghanistan.  We have received assurances from the Taliban that all foreign nationals and any Afghan citizen with travel authorization from our countries will be allowed to proceed in a safe and orderly manner to points of departure and travel outside the country.  We will continue issuing travel documentation to designated Afghans, and we have the clear expectation of and commitment from the Taliban that they can travel to our respective countries.  We note the public statements of the Taliban confirming this understanding.

[GQBlues]

Love these actual footages from Afghanistan.

[GQBlues]

Damn!! Enjeti is spot-on with me...

[Gator]

(comments on parakeets...prisons....airport security...fake news)

I will refrain from adding to the walls of words. 

The key fact is the US has completed its withdrawal.   The withdrawal was chaotic.  We sufferred 13 dead and maybe left as few as 300 Americans in Afghanistan.  It could have been worse.  Possibly some credit for a voiding diastermust go to the loose-knit Taliban who abided by their agreement to not attack and to help with the security of America's withdrawal.


Now the oversight hearings will start, and hopefully we will learn more about what went wrong and why.  You blame Trump.  I blame Biden.  I single out Biden's major mistake - namely deciding to withdraw the military before evacuating our citizens.  You defended Biden's decision in this comment:

People got all riled up about the US pulling troops out of the country, but little is said why that was even done. There were thousands of US-contracted civilian security contractors, not including TCNs actively working in Afghanistan. NATO force was still at 7,000 strong. Biden wanted US troops out of harm's way as much as possible.

If you believe Biden made the correct decision to withdraw the military early because he had adequate forces of security contractors,  please explain why Biden had to deploy at the last moment as many as 6,000 troops from the 82nd airborne and the USMC for airport security.

I assert Biden was complacent about the execution of the withdrawal, too distracted by domestic issues, and not comprehending the significance and speed of Taliban advances.  Sweet suffering Jesus.....Biden and his staff set off for vacation t the day before Ghani fled and Kabul fell to the Taliban.  Clearly, there was a disconnect, the Biden vacation started while US embassy staff in Kabul destroyed classified documents.   

[Trenchcoat]

Ok every nation now out of Afghanistan, last one out switch off the lights

[2tallbill]

We suffered 13 dead and maybe left 300 Americans in Afghanistan. 

Grounds for impeachment and removal from office.

Now the oversight hearings will start, and hopefully we will learn more about what
went wrong and why.

Hahahahhaha!!

The tooth fairy isn't real, the Easter Bunny doesn't hop around passing out chocolate
eggs AND The oversight hearings are to provide cover and to cover up Democratic faults
and failures. 

The ONLY way that the oversight hearings would provide ANY new information is if the
Democrats were in the minority in both houses. This will be a snow job, cover up, sham,
kangaroo court, inside job. I can't believe you would be gullible enough to think that the
dem's would allow legit hearings in any house of congress that they are the majority of.

[GQBlues]

Now the oversight hearings will start, and hopefully we will learn more about what went wrong and why.  You blame Trump.  I blame Biden.  I single out Biden's major mistake - namely deciding to withdraw the military before evacuating our citizens.  You defended Biden's decision in this comment:

If you believe Biden made the correct decision to withdraw the military early because he had adequate forces of security contractors,  please explain why Biden had to deploy at the last moment as many as 6,000 troops from the 82nd airborne and the USMC for airport security.

I assert Biden was complacent about the execution of the withdrawal, too distracted by domestic issues, and not comprehending the significance and speed of Taliban advances.  Sweet suffering Jesus.....Biden and his staff set off for vacation t the day before Ghani fled and Kabul fell to the Taliban.  Clearly, there was a disconnect, the Biden vacation started while US embassy staff in Kabul destroyed classified documents.

1. Because of the realization that the intelligence was wrong in their assumption that the Afghan forces would actually be able to hold on their defenses, and give the evacuation more than ample time to execute its operation.

2. It became obvious that a panicked onslaught of Afghan SIV, TCNs, American civilians, personnel in addition to having to fortify the airport perimeter, requires a much larger contingent of troops to manage crowd control. It likely requires a good amount of manpower to subvert any possible attack from militants.

3. The speed in which the Taliban captured Kabul.

I will not be surprise if troop deployment also happened not just at KAI, but in various regions for covert rescue missions.

My take.

[BC]

Although direct evacuations are over, and others should be ongoing for some time to come, maybe a little reflection is needed as to what happened, by design or not, as far as the Afghan people are concerned.

A small, but significant portion of the population received an education.  A huge accomplishment.
Many women were educated.  An extraordinary accomplishment.
65% literacy among the younger generation. Wow..
A brief sense of human and women's rights passed on.  A huge accomplishment.
Diverse peoples from many nations got to know each other, whether at the markets in Kabul, schools, and military. Friendships were formed. A huge accomplishment.
Some language barriers were overcome.  A huge accomplishment.
Communications, and even the internet, introduced to many. A huge accomplishment.
Exchanges of culture, music and arts.  A huge accomplishment.
Introduction of other forms of governance.  A huge accomplishment.
Many thousands of their citizens now live in other countries, many will remain active in the interests of their homeland. A huge accomplishment.
An otherwise ignored nation was put on the world map, gaining international attention.  A huge accomplishment.
New diplomatic channels emerging from many nations with new leaders there.  A huge accomplishment.

Sure, all the above regards relatively few, there will be some steps back now, some limitations that may be severe and difficult, even violent, but seeds have been planted and at least some reassurances by their new leaders that some things may 'stick'; like education for women albeit segregated, almost unheard of decades ago.  Actually a lot, unheard of decades ago from their POV and many things even the Taliban cannot ignore or completely suppress. 

Like any other nation, lasting change will take time, and time passes slowly in those parts of the world. But the process has been given a boost, even if it doesn't quench our desires for instant satisfaction. The international community has leverage and can help if deserved.  The Taliban got what they wanted, so now it's up to them to prove they're up to the task, and up to the people of Afghanistan to adapt, and change from within if they so desire, on their timeline and not ours.

I hope we learned a lot as well. The toll was high, high enough to remember for some time to come. 

With all the doom and gloom being forecasted, all the recriminations, misgivings and blame being passed about, thought I would just throw this hasty post out as food for thought.

[fathertime]

Grounds for impeachment and removal from office.

The shrill screaming on far right talk radio about impeachment was deafening.   I say the right should go ahead and give it a go.  See what the nation thinks.   I think a majority wanted trump impeached, but I doubt that will be the case with biden.   Talk radio will whip up it's dwindling base though. 

Grounds for impeachment and removal from office.

 

The tooth fairy isn't real, the Easter Bunny doesn't hop around passing out chocolate
eggs AND The oversight hearings are to provide cover and to cover up Democratic faults
and failures. 

The ONLY way that the oversight hearings would provide ANY new information is if the
Democrats were in the minority in both houses. This will be a snow job, cover up, sham,
kangaroo court, inside job. I can't believe you would be gullible enough to think that the
dem's would allow legit hearings in any house of congress that they are the majority of.

You seem to have very little faith in the system here in the US.