Odesa Dreaming

[Jumper1]

TC , I think converting your home was a solid plan and certainly increased its value, and it's ability to  provide rental income.
Your work to convert is certainly value/income investment.
That said you cannot realistically add its appraisal /appreciation as a one bedroom over the time frame vs earned  income.
All homes in your area and region did the same thing, unless  you sold and permanently moved to an area with lower housing costs its a wash,mute point,not an increase or income.

My own home appreciated on par ,in fact a bit more than in surrounding states, it's its irrelevant as we enjoy living here ,if we sold  ,anyplace here appreciated equally.
Anywhere I'd prefer to move (some other regions) appreciated equally or more.
It's appreciation  would  be realized if I retired, sold ,and moved to a region that housing was less,and would need the added factor that the per square ft average had not appreciated there at the same rate,even if overall price was lower

I can't view it as appreciating my holdings or as income,even if it doubles in selling price.(unless that only happened here*)

Like fathertime, I do wonder how you manage .
I know travel is less as you are so much closer.
But my area is quite low cost of living compared to fathertimes, and still folks on average at your income would struggle ,and have disposable income for  big trips.
Heck my income which is sufficient here would be stretched thin in fathertimes area as housing costs alone there dwarf mine.
Hats off to you for making it work and for digging into increasing your property towards income. 👍
I'm sure it was a huge project.

[ML]

My spellings are right. Maybe you use the Russia spelling.
Ukrainian Львів English translation Lviv
Ukrainian Одеса English translation Odessa
Russian Одесса = Odessa
Russian Львов = Lvov
In western Ukraine no one uses the word Львов. That’s Russian and you’ll get put in your place for using it.

I made my comment because you mixed the English translations of Russian and Ukrainian spellings.

You are completely wrong and far behind the times with respect to Official Ukrainian Government spelling of Odesa in English.

Here is from Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine.

http://mfa.gov.ua/en/correctua

#CorrectUA | Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine

Copied in many publications including:
http://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/ukraines-foreign-affairs-ministry-issues-open-letter-on-correct-spelling-of-ukrainian-place-names/

Here is a more complete listing of cities ordered by population size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Ukraine

[Steven1971]

Just looked on Zoopla Steven, my house is still down as a one bedder there and they reckon it's now estimated worth is  approx £80k up from £40k a few years ago so that's a £40k gain just by buying and sitting on it minus council tax, electricity and water bills of course.

However, after having completed the work I have been doing on it I estimate the house as a three bedder will be worth about £140k. So that's a £60k increase over four years or so of work over the price it would be if I had left it as a one bedder.

So divide that £60k increase by four, that gives approx £15k increase by each year spent on average. If I had just worked longer hours like you had I would have just earnt roughly £6k for each of those four years. Even if I am overestimating my house value a little my guess is that I would still be at least £12k a year better off so double of what I would have earnt working.

I wouldn't say the house conversion was easy, I could have had an easier time working to sone extent. I don't mind where I work, in some ways I quite like it, it's one of the better jobs I've had, it's also relatively stable and relatively easy going. That said it's not a high payer, it's relatively low income, I don't mind that as it's just a relatively easy going number I want without much stress. That said while it pays its way it also keeps me in a static position in life. That's fine for a while and no I wouldn't want to give up the job without assured decent income elsewhere. I know I could do a lot worse elsewhere and work hard for relatively low pay.

I could do more hours at it but not while I'm finishing converting the house, that would be counter-productive. In general though shortly after finishing my house I would like to move on with work. I know I can go back there most likely anytime and while I can do without disruption like that I really want to move on to progress in life. That's not likely to happen where I work in any way that I would like it to. An independent income from the house would give me the income I need to be independent and seek out new opportunities, not just possibly Odessa but in general. A job, particularly one I have to be physically at or long hours of work kind of stops that from happening. Funnily enough a lot of people on Furlough took the advantage of it to set up their own businesses, some of course didn't do well, that's life but some did very well and have never looked but and decided not to return to their old jobs lol.

So I don't really want to tie myself down by trying to earn more here. I might do a few extra hours before chucking my job in to right my finances a bit better but that's probably it.

I think you're strategy on renting out is a good one though Steven, do just below market rate so the renter's look around and see that there are no better deals going so are left with the obvious conclusion of staying put. In addition they feel a bit better for not having to pay the top rate while you likely avoid a lot of voids. I've heard doing a yearly inflationary increase is a good idea as well so the tenants/lodgers get used to the rent going up each year in line with everything else of course still keeping it below market rate. That way it doesn't come as a big surprise when they get an increase after a few years especially if it's a big one to correct for a big market adjustment. So even a very small increase each year can be a better way to handle it apparently.

In Odessa I will likely be using dating apps like tinder to bring  up the local women. For sure not all will know English that well, that's something I will have to navigate. I will obviously use Google Translate but also will be trying to learn Russian better. It's kind of difficult to say how they will regard my situation until there. The impression I get is that there are probably many girls that would look favourably on a guy that could provide decently and look pretty stable at doing so. I think I would have to promote it to the lady and see how it goes down but I'm pretty sure I have something good to offer as they will see it

Hats off to you if an estate agent markets the house at your estimated price. However they might be less generous than you in assessing the value added.

The capital gain is purely theoretiucal as you have stated you are not going to sell the house. What you will have done is to increase the amount you can borrow against the house - but that still needs to be repaid and with interest. As i mentioned in passing any such mortgage payment can only be half of what any tenants would pay. Therefore you would only have £500 income per month if you mortgage the house to the full extent.

I don't want this to be a willy waving contest, but since I bought my maisonette in 2013 it has increased in value from £52,500 to £70,000 and my house that i live in has increased from £78,000 to £104,000. So a £40,000 increase if I had done nothing to either property. Such is the crazy nature of the housing market. I spent £10,000 improving the maisonette before renting it out and so far £20,000 on my house.

In the next 18 months I will take out a loan so that i can remove the chimney breasts in the two bedrooms as well as the lounge and dining area. I also want to create a bedroom in the loft which has a high ceiling. I will be borrowing about 20% of the space of the smaller bedroom to put in a staircase which would provide some storage space below the stairs. The loss of space will be partly off set by removing the chimney breast.

In 10 years time my parents would be in their mid 90s so I have to realistic and accept that they would no longer be with me. In such a case I could buy a house with my inheritance and rent this one out. I am trying to improve the house, but not so much that it would price people out of renting it.

[Trenchcoat]

Hola old chap!

I review the numbers you provide and have a question or two, if you don't mind.   Is the cost of living in UK rather low?  It seems the numbers you provide for income/home value are exceptionally low compared to the types of numbers I see in much of the states.   Most people (Especially in much of California) could not come close to surviving with the salary you discuss.  Given the salary, how can you afford to travel at all?   
If I were travelling again to meet women and enjoy myself, I'd probably allocate 5-7k per trip door to door.  Finances would be a non-factor.  I figured Brits income were somewhat on par with US incomes but maybe not.

Fathertime!

Lol, even if we convert that $5-7k into ponds day £3-5k it's a lot of money to many maybe most Brits to spend on traveling/holiday. Maybe if you were paying for a whole family in a nice resort or hotel or something.

It's kind of like I was saying a while back about the economy in the UK working differently to the economy in the US. Here I think most people generally get paid less than in the US. In the US I get the impression particularly beyond shop work a guy can make a good salary if he or she has some kind of skill. Here there are a lit of people with skills of all sorts but it doesn't often matter a whole lot to earning more. An Accountant for example will earn say £25-30k be taxed on that and often find progression difficult. If he or she stays in it a long while they may get £30-35k or more but that is probably towards the end of most people's careers. Only the lucky few go through and earn more money than that.

If I'm going on a trip to the FSU, these days I know I can get a budget airline trip fir around £50-100 return, ridiculously cheap in a way. Then get a say three star hotel near or around the city centre for a few nights for say around £200-300. Something pleasant looking with a few nice features perhaps. Then put aside £200-300 for spend money. A bit of extra money for going to & from airport at either end. So all in all I would say a journey would be around £1k, possibly a bit less, all depends on length of stay, how frugal, etc.

The UK is kind of all about how cheap something can be done lol. Employers want costs as cheap as possible so don't want to pay high salaries. Employees want to buy stuff as cheap as possible so Employers can only pay so much. Only thing that costs a lot are houses, as in the US because we generally only live in solid built houses we can only accommodate so many people like that, no slums of India here but as a result a lot of people relative to housing means high house price cost. Best thing to be is on the housing ladder as that means you're sat on an asset that is ever appreciating in value, or at least has been for the last 20 years or so, roughly.

I live in a fairly cheap part of the UK, Wales, I think Steven does too, Nottingham (Northern England). Even so house price rises have hit here of late as housing gets more and more constrained. The thing I like about Steven is that he is more of a typical Brit sort of situation, like me He earns a typical Brit salary about £22k before tax and £19k after tax, boosted by £5.4k tax free income from his house he rents out. That's more how most Brits live I think though probably not that many with rental income. I could easily earn that much when I've done my house in approx 2-3 months. It's not that it would be a bad deal as such but I wanted to develop independent income to give me freedom to go of and do as I please not work for an Employer my whole life, with a bit of luck It basically gives me an income without feeling that I immediately have to get money coming in and not be able to sort out what I want to do.

To be honest for the UK and perhaps in general the sorts of figures me and Steven talk about are small fry, we're everyday guys. The UK is full of people earning the same sort of money whatever they do. Housing is a different issue as many get stuck renting so we're not doing to bad on that one but still the numbers are small. There are people that have a lot more wealth, some have load of properties, or properties of high value in London, etc. Unless they are in a lot of debt they can do whatever they please. They are not loads of people like that but they exist and are basically lucky buggers. Other people may have a well paying job like Medical Doctors earning around £100k a year or more but they are difficult jobs to train for and get into and no doubt stressful when doing. I don't think they are to be envied and again not that many of them in the UK. So it all depends, London is probably more like California, high living costs but more higher paid jobs, if you can get one. Outside of London and out in the wilds of the UK cheaper living but less higher paid jobs to try to knab.

[Trenchcoat]

Hats off to you if an estate agent markets the house at your estimated price. However they might be less generous than you in assessing the value added.

The capital gain is purely theoretiucal as you have stated you are not going to sell the house. What you will have done is to increase the amount you can borrow against the house - but that still needs to be repaid and with interest. As i mentioned in passing any such mortgage payment can only be half of what any tenants would pay. Therefore you would only have £500 income per month if you mortgage the house to the full extent.

I don't want this to be a willy waving contest, but since I bought my maisonette in 2013 it has increased in value from £52,500 to £70,000 and my house that i live in has increased from £78,000 to £104,000. So a £40,000 increase if I had done nothing to either property. Such is the crazy nature of the housing market. I spent £10,000 improving the maisonette before renting it out and so far £20,000 on my house.

In the next 18 months I will take out a loan so that i can remove the chimney breasts in the two bedrooms as well as the lounge and dining area. I also want to create a bedroom in the loft which has a high ceiling. I will be borrowing about 20% of the space of the smaller bedroom to put in a staircase which would provide some storage space below the stairs. The loss of space will be partly off set by removing the chimney breast.

In 10 years time my parents would be in their mid 90s so I have to realistic and accept that they would no longer be with me. In such a case I could buy a house with my inheritance and rent this one out. I am trying to improve the house, but not so much that it would price people out of renting it.

That's pretty much what I did with my place, except the chimney breast stepped out on the ground floor, so the step out is what I removed. On the first floor I'm not sure if there was an opening, the chimney continues to but it's always been stepped back so nothing to remove. The chimney stake had been removed already before I bought the place so that saved me a job and was handy as I don't like heights lol.

Anyhow so then I took a staircase up into the loft and did that out. However the joist beams needed new beams in there, stronger basically deeper beams as the joists there were too thin, basically just ceiling joists to hold up the ceiling, so I did that. Taking out the chimney breast on the ground floor ended up a big task also as it was rough stone, I still left a few cm step out to make sure it could support the above stone wall. It gave a bit more space needed which was good, I'm guessing your chimney will be brick though Steven so should be a lot quicker to remove and likely cleaner. Rough stone locks into each other every which way so worked out time consuming to remove, with the line mortar around mess everywhere. A SDS Plus hammer chisel/drill or better still a SDS Max one from somewhere like Screwfix or Toolstation will do the job well. I had an SDS Plus one but with hindsight a SDS Max is probably the better buy for speed. Of course consider any structural issues with removing the chimney breast as that's obviously real important.

Under stair areas I have found handy for putting Ensuite toilets, basically a toilet and a small sink. Decided to do that even before the virus hit and probably more handy as a result now. Thus all my bedrooms now have ensuite toilets without them taking up good bedroom space. Probably a good point to rent out with I reckon.

[Steven1971]

That's pretty much what I did with my place, except the chimney breast stepped out on the ground floor, so the step out is what I removed. On the first floor I'm not sure if there was an opening, the chimney continues to but it's always been stepped back so nothing to remove. The chimney stake had been removed already before I bought the place so that saved me a job and was handy as I don't like heights lol.

Anyhow so then I took a staircase up into the loft and did that out. However the joist beams needed new beams in there, stronger basically deeper beams as the joists there were too thin, basically just ceiling joists to hold up the ceiling, so I did that. Taking out the chimney breast on the ground floor ended up a big task also as it was rough stone, I still left a few cm step out to make sure it could support the above stone wall. It gave a bit more space needed which was good, I'm guessing your chimney will be brick though Steven so should be a lot quicker to remove and likely cleaner. Rough stone locks into each other every which way so worked out time consuming to remove, with the line mortar around mess everywhere. A SDS Plus hammer chisel/drill or better still a SDS Max one from somewhere like Screwfix or Toolstation will do the job well. I had an SDS Plus one but with hindsight a SDS Max is probably the better buy for speed. Of course consider any structural issues with removing the chimney breast as that's obviously real important.

Under stair areas I have found handy for putting Ensuite toilets, basically a toilet and a small sink. Decided to do that even before the virus hit and probably more handy as a result now. Thus all my bedrooms now have ensuite toilets without them taking up good bedroom space. Probably a good point to rent out with I reckon.

Have you had the council inspect your work per building regs? I half suspect this may have slipped your mind. The chimney breasts downstairs take up a significant amount of room in my house and i can't wait for the day when they are gone. Qudos to you for doing that, but i will be quite happy to pay a trademan to do it.

I know several people in my peer group at school btw who are earning £30k, £40k, even £70k salaries. Maybe your part of Wales pays poor salaries and this colours your view of what salaries are available generally. I am in the Ashfield part of Nottinghamshire which has relatively low pay, but as my company pays the same wherever you live apart from London i get more bang for my buck here. It's a lot cheaper to live here than Rushcliffe or Gedling districts.

[Trenchcoat]

Have you had the council inspect your work per building regs? I half suspect this may have slipped your mind. The chimney breasts downstairs take up a significant amount of room in my house and i can't wait for the day when they are gone. Qudos to you for doing that, but i will be quite happy to pay a trademan to do it.

I know several people in my peer group at school btw who are earning £30k, £40k, even £70k salaries. Maybe your part of Wales pays poor salaries and this colours your view of what salaries are available generally. I am in the Ashfield part of Nottinghamshire which has relatively low pay, but as my company pays the same wherever you live apart from London i get more bang for my buck here. It's a lot cheaper to live here than Rushcliffe or Gedling districts.

Well, the chimney breast for me wasn't much of a structural concern since it stepped out so was excess to structural need, it all checked out with the regs. It was a big ugly thing though, took up to a foot of the room right the way across the room since it wasn't really done to look pleasant but for functionality being a coal miners terrace.

For some houses though of course the chimney is integral to the structure of the place or difficult to remove without affecting the structure. I know what you mean though that it's great having big chunky fire places removed though as they are pretty useless these days and the extra space you get back is wonderful

I think if you know people at School earning those sorts of salaries then it's good for them. I kind of think to some extent it's luck of the draw. That said some of the jobs around for those types of salaries can be hard going and full of stress all the time. Time over again maybe if I studied Finance and tried to get into stockbroking or something but loads of people try that stuff and don't make it. I kind of wish I could have a well paying job like that then I wouldn't have to mess around doing all this other stuff. Problem with the UK I think is too many people, most of the stuff you think of that you could do there are umpteen many others competing against you to do the same thing. Just makes it real difficult to earn good money at it.

[Grumpy]

In 10 years time my parents would be in their mid 90s so I have to realistic and accept that they would no longer be with me. In such a case I could buy a house with my inheritance and rent this one out. I am trying to improve the house, but not so much that it would price people out of renting it.

My parents are already older than the Queen and still going strong. I have about given up on inheritances, lol. Much better to plan on working for whatever you want to spend.

[Trenchcoat]

I live in Lviv, and Odessa would be the last city I would pick to live in. There are much better cities to live in. It’s a party city. I have the feeling if you lived in Ukraine you would be scammed left and right.

Scamming can happen in any city in Ukraine and not just by the women. I get the impression if someone sees they can make a quick buck they'll try it on, not everyone but as a foreigner they could see you as an easy target, i.e try to charge you way more than the market price for rent, etc, etc.

I liked Lviv a lot when I got there and still do a bit. The old medieval style buildings are great. It also has a slight Hollywood feel about it with the surrounding hills around I thought, a nice feel to the place. However, after a couple of weeks there the tourism side if the city was starting to get to me a bit, it was kind of a bit Truman Show like playing over and over again like being on a film set stuck on a loop. You're right Odessa is a bit of a party city but Lviv is kind of a tourist city lol. I prefer a party city as it gives a fun vibrant vibe that I like. A tourist city feels like being stuck in a tourist trap after a while. My father used to always complain about being in a tourist trap when we used to go on holidays in the UK, I couldn't see it at the time but with Lviv I certainly got to feel it and started to see why such places are such a turn off. A lot of it is fake, some of it quite fun fake but fake all the same. I liked the kerosene restaurant and the chocolate shop Some of the other themed restaurants were great and did great food, the cherry wine place was nice also. So yeah it has its upsides, I like the history and old fashioned Architecture of the place too. I possibly could live there for a while but the touristy element was off-putting to nevaway a while I've got to say.

Other slight issue was I felt they were getting to the point of doing the buildings up a bit too much, of course it's great to see some buildings restored but too many and the place starts to look artificial, Disney like. Nothing better than feeling the vibe of an old medieval style buildings like it was back in the day. Lviv also felt a bit western European like, the people, etc so while that was nice in a way it's also something I would kind of like to get away from also. Other than that I don't think there was any beach around Lviv being a landlocked city, possibly there might be a lake or two nearby but I like a nice beach scene.

So all in all, yeah I guess Lviv would be my second choice of city to live in and can see why you chose it, it's a nice city. However I kind of prefer a party city more, Odessa is great with the beach and I never felt the party nature was in a bad leery sort of way, too noisy or uncouth, just about right. There's a but if tourism etc in Odessa which doesn't feel too over the top so overall felt about right to me. I could feel different when there I guess and might start to prefer Lviv, Lviv I enjoyed myself more in I guess but once the tourist attractions have been exhausted there's not a lot more to it plus in holiday mode a bit too much I fear there I think.

[Steven1971]

In Odessa I will likely be using dating apps like tinder to bring  up the local women. For sure not all will know English that well, that's something I will have to navigate. I will obviously use Google Translate but also will be trying to learn Russian better. It's kind of difficult to say how they will regard my situation until there. The impression I get is that there are probably many girls that would look favourably on a guy that could provide decently and look pretty stable at doing so. I think I would have to promote it to the lady and see how it goes down but I'm pretty sure I have something good to offer as they will see it

If you are using Tinder are you not losing your perceived advantage? Tinder is ruthless. The girl looks at the photo for a nano second before swiping left or right. Your abode in Ukraine and independent income won't get a mention. You will be judged against the local competition on looks alone. To a degree you would stand out not having Slavic features, but all the same I would not have Tinder down as an app for finding a long term relationship.

[Trenchcoat]

If you are using Tinder are you not losing your perceived advantage? Tinder is ruthless. The girl looks at the photo for a nano second before swiping left or right. Your abode in Ukraine and independent income won't get a mention. You will be judged against the local competition on looks alone. To a degree you would stand out not having Slavic features, but all the same I would not have Tinder down as an app for finding a long term relationship.

I'll have to test it out. I can change the city so will probably sign up soon and do that. You're right to some extent I will lose a certain something. The hope is though that I will go more on personal appeal and so get up girls who are naturally more interested. That way I avoid a lot of girls who are just out for their own alterior motive and aren't really into me from the get go.

I'm not saying it's the only method I'll use, like someone said building up a network is handy as if someone knows someone else, etc who's single and wants to find a good man, etc.

There's other methods available, Odessa is the first stop on the AFA tour (loveme.com). Now it's not got the best reputation but aside from Scammer girls that turn up there are local girls who may become serious to the right guy. If it becomes known that you live locally then they may view you very well.

There's other apps to use also, I think someone said Bumble may work there. Mamba I am not keen on these days, it was originally free and good to use and was for dating for locals, then foreigners got involved more & more. They then changed the site to pay for and it became a bit if a rip off and difficult to contact the younger women on there. But anything in a pinch is worth a go. Just basically try as many things to get the women up will be the main deal I think.

[Steven1971]

I'll have to test it out. I can change the city so will probably sign up soon and do that. You're right to some extent I will lose a certain something. The hope is though that I will go more on personal appeal and so get up girls who are naturally more interested. That way I avoid a lot of girls who are just out for their own alterior motive and aren't really into me from the get go.

I'm not saying it's the only method I'll use, like someone said building up a network is handy as if someone knows someone else, etc who's single and wants to find a good man, etc.

There's other methods available, Odessa is the first stop on the AFA tour (license.com). Now it's not got the best reputation but aside from Scammer girls that turn up there are local girls who may become serious to the right guy. If it becomes known that you live locally then they may view you very well.

There's other apps to use also, I think someone said Bumble may work there. Mamba I am not keen on these days, it was originally free and good to use and was for dating for locals, then foreigners got involved more & more. They then changed the site to pay for and it became a bit if a rip off and difficult to contact the younger women on there. But anything in a pinch is worth a go. Just basically try as many things to get the women up will be the main deal I think.

Aren't those tours something like $2000? The trouble is they go to three cities in quick succession. Don't know if there is an option to just do Odesa. Also from what I have seen on YouTube there is is too much choice.

In those circumstances I would be ruthless and restrict myself to those who don't need an interpreter. No matter how pretty the non English speakers are. If you met more than one you can see them afterwards in Odesa, so avoiding the usual pitfalls of those who move on to Kherson.

It might not be the worst idea to be fair even though it would be the most expensive nightclub you ever go to. There would be some going for free drinks, some curious and some serious. You would have the time to weed them out.

I have come to the conclusion that this is a high stakes, high reward game and some, maybe a lot of the money you spend is a sunk cost.

I've been to Ukraine a few times and even though it didn't work out with a couple of ladies (my decision) I got to visit places that would have been more difficult on my own.

I'm chatting with a woman from Kyiv at the moment who on paper would be the woman of my life. I've booked a week off in June at work which I can easily change to a later date depending on Putin. Will leave flights and apartment to later on. As much as I like her I would be going with an attitude of lets have a good time and see what happens. I think you can go with too much pressure.

I thing the best thing to be is to be yourself - just don't be stingy on the way for the small things.

[fathertime]

There's other methods available, Odessa is the first stop on the AFA tour (license.com). Now it's not got the best reputation but aside from Scammer girls that turn up there are local girls who may become serious to the right guy. If it becomes known that you live locally then they may view you very well.

 

If I were in the game, I'd look at a tour like AFA.  Granted there are scammers of all sorts, but they would put you in a room with 100's of women.  You can then make the call. 
When I did my silly tour (The Dreaded Anastasia) in early 2005, I had a very good time.  Found a beautiful woman, I opted out in the end, but I had a chance if I wanted to take it.  I was young, but still it was easy to identify the scammers, and minimize interaction.   Little time was wasted, the hotel, support, and overall experience was good for a first timer.    There was a % of guys on the tour that were sex tourists, and goofs of course.  I think the environment attracts women/men with intents other than marriage...but for the right people at the right time, long term matches can happen.

If it were me, I wouldn't see myself on a site like Bumblebee trying to hook up with individual ladies like that in a cold isolated environment.  I'd probably wind up sitting in the hotel and watch TV or something. 

Fathertime! 

[Trenchcoat]

Aren't those tours something like $2000? The trouble is they go to three cities in quick succession. Don't know if there is an option to just do Odesa. Also from what I have seen on YouTube there is is too much choice.

In those circumstances I would be ruthless and restrict myself to those who don't need an interpreter. No matter how pretty the non English speakers are. If you met more than one you can see them afterwards in Odesa, so avoiding the usual pitfalls of those who move on to Kherson.

It might not be the worst idea to be fair even though it would be the most expensive nightclub you ever go to. There would be some going for free drinks, some curious and some serious. You would have the time to weed them out.

I have come to the conclusion that this is a high stakes, high reward game and some, maybe a lot of the money you spend is a sunk cost.

I've been to Ukraine a few times and even though it didn't work out with a couple of ladies (my decision) I got to visit places that would have been more difficult on my own.

I'm chatting with a woman from Kyiv at the moment who on paper would be the woman of my life. I've booked a week off in June at work which I can easily change to a later date depending on Putin. Will leave flights and apartment to later on. As much as I like her I would be going with an attitude of lets have a good time and see what happens. I think you can go with too much pressure.

I thing the best thing to be is to be yourself - just don't be stingy on the way for the small things.

I know what you mean, I think the main place I would have had trouble getting to and from would have been Pirogov, the traditional Folk Architecture Outdoor Museum, if you've ever been to Weald and Download Outdoor Museum in the UK it's much like that but a but more rustic setup. It's basically stuck way out in the countryside off some motorway that runs nearby, think there was a tower block or two in the distance but that's about it. I went back in 2016 with a girl and at that time there was no Uber or similar operating. So she ordered the taxi's by mobile phone which meant I got a good deal over picking one of the street which is much more expensive. The entrance to the parkland itself was just manned by this rusty old kiosk off to the side, painted greenish I think it was, so kind of back in the day. Anyhow main thing was, was that there was little in the way of civilization out there apart from other tourists. I think we were lucky to be able to get a mobile phone signal out there and get a taxi to take us back into central Kiev. If not or if she had buggered off I don't know what we/I would have done. Possibly had a long and uncomfortable walk back to civilization somehow lol.

Yeah the idea of getting a girl to show you around isn't a bad one and see how you get on. There are plenty of Ukrainian girls that will do that, they're a social lot which is nice but I think what's in it for them is a free meal out, casual entertainment, no big deal for us westerners as it's cheap for us but I sometimes think there may be more interested in that than finding a guy but who knows. I believe 2tallbill's method was to ditch any such woman where there was no attraction upon meeting and call up others so as to not waste time with the wrong woman. Strategy can vary on that of course. I don't regret the time I spent with the women I met but I wonder if I should have handled it better, but hey ho.

Anyway, yeah the tours bring up women that just go for the party. However, sometimes if they find the right bloke, one with natural chemistry then that can turn into an unexpected relationship. Last I saw AFA was doing it where you could book an individual city for a few hundred pounds. They also deduct the cost of the flight if not coming from the UK. So for me it might be worth a look with the Odessa one for convenience. Even the Nikolaev and Kherson ones may not be bad as not that far away. I would have an advantage over the other guys on the tour as living there would be more convenient to the girl plus I know the game a fair bit. That's not to say I would win at it as you've no doubt seen the documentary 'Love Me' it can be random. Possibly some girl might actually want to move abroad but as the real wealthy American found out on there that not many do, but if the right guy comes up that may change it all.

I think you're right Steven it's definitely a high stakes high reward game. Some guys get lucky early in or first time out on the game most guys though it's a lot longer journey. There are ways to do it cheaper and I think it's been getting cheaper. When I started out in 2016 there was no budget airlines to Ukraine, it was UIA mainly, it wasn't real expensive but you can get it cheaper now, about half the price or less on a budget airline. There was also no Uber, Uklon, Yandex taxi apps so you had to pay the full wack on taxi's as a foreigner and also try and avoid being ripped off. Hotels were cheap enough and most still are. Method is also important to saving money, spending one journey to see one girl who turns out not to be interested adds up if repeating that a lot, some guys don't mind doing that. I think I said just recently that all in all it can cost up to around £1k per trip, it can be done a bit cheaper just do a weekend and cut out a lot of stuff then it can probably be brought down nearer £500. Once you've done a lot of tourist stuff in a location and if only meeting one girl then there no real need to do a whole week. Anyway, thing is if I added up all the going out and meeting girls holiday outings it would no doubt exceed the price of an AFA tour. Pitfulls obviously with AFA tours but same goes plucking women of websites I think. I don't really regret the path I chose so much as I think an AFA tour would have probably been too much for me to take in with all the women and terps and carry on that go on. It's kind of a good idea to get a good girl to show you around to get familiar with Ukraine to start with and then find your way from there I reckon.

[Trenchcoat]

If I were in the game, I'd look at a tour like AFA.  Granted there are scammers of all sorts, but they would put you in a room with 100's of women.  You can then make the call. 
When I did my silly tour (The Dreaded Anastasia) in early 2005, I had a very good time.  Found a beautiful woman, I opted out in the end, but I had a chance if I wanted to take it.  I was young, but still it was easy to identify the scammers, and minimize interaction.   Little time was wasted, the hotel, support, and overall experience was good for a first timer.    There was a % of guys on the tour that were sex tourists, and goofs of course.  I think the environment attracts women/men with intents other than marriage...but for the right people at the right time, long term matches can happen.

If it were me, I wouldn't see myself on a site like Bumblebee trying to hook up with individual ladies like that in a cold isolated environment.  I'd probably wind up sitting in the hotel and watch TV or something. 

Fathertime!

Exactly, I do sometimes think time over after the experience with being shown around Kiev with the first girl that I might have then been better off going and doing an AFA tour. They get a bit of a bad rep from some guys and I don't blame them but like you say FT that you get a lit of women in a room, can weight them up there and then and get a choice out if a lit of women isn't a bad thing. Trying to pluck one out at a time and hope there is chemistry is kind of long winded, if the guy looks like Brad Pitt maybe less so. I kind of think that apart from the negatives AFA tours aren't necessarily a bad deal.

[2tallbill]

I'm not saying it's the only method I'll use, like someone said building up a network is handy
as if someone knows someone else, etc who's single and wants to find a good man, etc.

There's other methods available, Odessa is the first stop on the AFA tour (license.com). Now it's
not got the best reputation but aside from Scammer girls that turn up there are local girls who
may become serious to the right guy. If it becomes known that you live locally then they may
view you very well.

I want to formally nominate this for the dumbest idea so far of 2022.

[2tallbill]

Exactly, I do sometimes think time over after the experience with being shown around Kiev with the first girl that I might have then been better off going and doing an AFA tour. They get a bit of a bad rep from some guys and I don't blame them but like you say FT that you get a lit of women in a room, can weight them up there and then and get a choice out if a lit of women isn't a bad thing. Trying to pluck one out at a time and hope there is chemistry is kind of long winded, if the guy looks like Brad Pitt maybe less so. I kind of think that apart from the negatives AFA tours aren't necessarily a bad deal.

Trench you are far too cheap to pay AFA tour fees. You stupidly avoid Russia because they have a visa that
costs money, yet you are trying to make us believe that you would pay thousands to those rascals?

What's your plan? Try to figure out where/when they are holding their party and then sneak in
without paying? I think you will lose teeth trying to tag along without paying.

[Trenchcoat]

Trench you are far too cheap to pay AFA tour fees. You stupidly avoid Russia because they have a visa that
costs money, yet you are trying to make us believe that you would pay thousands to those rascals?

What's your plan? Try to figure out where/when they are holding their party and then sneak in
without paying? I think you will lose teeth trying to tag along without paying.

It's not just the visa cost but the time and bother to go and get it. I have to go to one of the visa centres and the nearest one for me is London. It's not in a convenient place, time over again I would use the train, so add cost of train then underground onto the price. It's that or car journey & expensive parking but that tends to not be a fun drive, think traffic congestion, etc.

I then have to leave them with my Passport, if I want to get expedited service that costs more. I then have to either pay for the return of passport by post (more cost) and they use a crap courier, last time I had to rescue my passport myself from their local depot despite the just doing it all by computer with no local depot pick up (DX courriers if anyone was wondering). It's that or take another day out to go up and pick it up myself once they are done with it. The visa then is a real short period as well something like 30 days. You then have to tell them where you will be staying in advance when applying so you have to book without any certainty of getting the visa.

So yeah if you get over there and meet enough women from the right location odds are there may be one who is up for a relationship. They don't tend to have as much of a scam culture outside Moscow & St. Pete's so odds are probably better than Ukraine of a sincere woman but it starts getting to away from a convenient situation. Oh, flights cost more to Russia also, particularly the more further afield in Russia. It's just a whole lot more guff to it. I'm not saying I wouldn't consider it but it's an expensive journey possibly with scant reward.

Once I've done my house & rented it out I may have time to take day trips out to Visa centres but for now I've got more pressing matters.

I think in any case it kind of messes up my whole strategy. I don't really want to live out in Russia. I mean Moscow St.Pete'as and probably Sochi and maybe a few other city centres are probably nice but they will tend to cost a bit and then there is getting a visa to stay there a longer period. Some places I may not like stay. It's all a lot more complexity and possible cost to the whole idea of living abroad.

[John Gaunt]

It's not just the visa cost but the time and bother to go and get it. I have to go to one of the visa centres and the nearest one for me is London. It's not in a convenient place, time over again I would use the train, so add cost of train then underground onto the price. It's that or car journey & expensive parking but that tends to not be a fun drive, think traffic congestion, etc.

I then have to leave them with my Passport, if I want to get expedited service that costs more. I then have to either pay for the return of passport by post (more cost) and they use a crap courier, last time I had to rescue my passport myself from their local depot despite the just doing it all by computer with no local depot pick up (DX courriers if anyone was wondering). It's that or take another day out to go up and pick it up myself once they are done with it. The visa then is a real short period as well something like 30 days. You then have to tell them where you will be staying in advance when applying so you have to book without any certainty of getting the visa.

So yeah if you get over there and meet enough women from the right location odds are there may be one who is up for a relationship. They don't tend to have as much of a scam culture outside Moscow & St. Pete's so odds are probably better than Ukraine of a sincere woman but it starts getting to away from a convenient situation. Oh, flights cost more to Russia also, particularly the more further afield in Russia. It's just a whole lot more guff to it. I'm not saying I wouldn't consider it but it's an expensive journey possibly with scant reward.

Once I've done my house & rented it out I may have time to take day trips out to Visa centres but for now I've got more pressing matters.

I think in any case it kind of messes up my whole strategy. I don't really want to live out in Russia. I mean Moscow St.Pete'as and probably Sochi and maybe a few other city centres are probably nice but they will tend to cost a bit and then there is getting a visa to stay there a longer period. Some places I may not like stay. It's all a lot more complexity and possible cost to the whole idea of living abroad.

To summaries:

It costs more money to do Russia. 

[Trenchcoat]

To summaries:

It costs more money to do Russia. 

That's great short paraphrasing of what I said Gaunty

[Trenchcoat]

I'm chatting with a woman from Kyiv at the moment who on paper would be the woman of my life. I've booked a week off in June at work which I can easily change to a later date depending on Putin. Will leave flights and apartment to later on. As much as I like her I would be going with an attitude of lets have a good time and see what happens. I think you can go with too much pressure.

I thing the best thing to be is to be yourself - just don't be stingy on the way for the small things.

What website did you meet this present lady on? Is she much younger than you?

[Steven1971]

Previously the two ladies I met in Ukraine i encountered on www.fiance.com It is a site you can pay for per month, three months or six months. After the monthly fee all letters were free.  I think it has gone downhill in recent years and I stopped using it.

The first lady from Odesa was independent (no agency) so we quickly moved off site.

The second from Kherson didn't really respond in great length to letters, but was very happy to do video chat. That quickly added up and i spent a reasonable amount before i met her in her home town. Didn't work out, but she was an honest girl.

I know it breaks all the golden rules, but I decided to contact the current lady I am communicating with on a PPL site. If you put the monthly fee against PPL there isn't a huge amount in it as we have used the chat option quite a lot this last few weeks, sometimes with video, other times not.

I made a successful request to have her contact details this weekend, so now have her email and phone number. This isn't my first rodeo. I know these could go unanwered. And yes she is called Svetlana. Breaks all the golden rules. How we communicate when there is no money involved will go some way to forming my final judgement.

I am 50 and really I know I am in the last chance saloon. If it all ended today I had a blast during the chats. She has a really engaging mind - we talk about anything and everything. She is 32. Originally from Lugansk, but is an internal refugee in Kyiv. Really into the countryside - she has shared several photos of her in the mountains and lakes.

Hope to be able to go to Kyiv in July and see what happens. I haven't had a holiday without my son since January 2016, so I will treat it as such. If it goes south I know my way around Kyiv.

Personally I don't have an issue with agencies if they act as they should. We find you the girl, we get quite a bit of money from the website, from you having boots on the ground and from doing all the paperwork to get her to England. I had to pay a French lawyer a lot of money to get divorced, so why wouldnt i pay a similar amount to a Ukranian marriage agency? If they have done some of the heavy lifting I am more than happy for them to get their finders fee. I don't have the time or money to make 30 visits to Russia and Ukraine over the next decade, so if they help me sort the wheat from the chaff then good luck to them.

It is a gamble, but I rationalise that i don't play the lottery and if i played it all my life the money lost buying tickets would probably equal what I will eventually pay.

Know what you are getting into and have a back up plan. If it doesn't work out at least we tried. There will always be the Keyboard Romantic option admiring photos as i get into my dotage. There are worse things to waste your money on.

[LAman]

................ The hope is though that I will go more on personal appeal and so get up girls who are naturally more interested. That way I avoid a lot of girls who are just out for their own alterior motive and aren't really into me from the get go.

 
 

98% of girls on Tinder have an ulterior motive!!
But go ahead, everything you will do in Ukraine you will pay extra for.
The only thing I agree with you is the ambiance, nice small big city......Odesa!!

[Trenchcoat]

Previously the two ladies I met in Ukraine i encountered on www.fiance.com It is a site you can pay for per month, three months or six months. After the monthly fee all letters were free.  I think it has gone downhill in recent years and I stopped using it.

The first lady from Odesa was independent (no agency) so we quickly moved off site.

The second from Kherson didn't really respond in great length to letters, but was very happy to do video chat. That quickly added up and i spent a reasonable amount before i met her in her home town. Didn't work out, but she was an honest girl.

I know it breaks all the golden rules, but I decided to contact the current lady I am communicating with on a PPL site. If you put the monthly fee against PPL there isn't a huge amount in it as we have used the chat option quite a lot this last few weeks, sometimes with video, other times not.

I made a successful request to have her contact details this weekend, so now have her email and phone number. This isn't my first rodeo. I know these could go unanwered. And yes she is called Svetlana. Breaks all the golden rules. How we communicate when there is no money involved will go some way to forming my final judgement.

I am 50 and really I know I am in the last chance saloon. If it all ended today I had a blast during the chats. She has a really engaging mind - we talk about anything and everything. She is 32. Originally from Lugansk, but is an internal refugee in Kyiv. Really into the countryside - she has shared several photos of her in the mountains and lakes.

Hope to be able to go to Kyiv in July and see what happens. I haven't had a holiday without my son since January 2016, so I will treat it as such. If it goes south I know my way around Kyiv.

Personally I don't have an issue with agencies if they act as they should. We find you the girl, we get quite a bit of money from the website, from you having boots on the ground and from doing all the paperwork to get her to England. I had to pay a French lawyer a lot of money to get divorced, so why wouldnt i pay a similar amount to a Ukranian marriage agency? If they have done some of the heavy lifting I am more than happy for them to get their finders fee. I don't have the time or money to make 30 visits to Russia and Ukraine over the next decade, so if they help me sort the wheat from the chaff then good luck to them.

It is a gamble, but I rationalise that i don't play the lottery and if i played it all my life the money lost buying tickets would probably equal what I will eventually pay.

Know what you are getting into and have a back up plan. If it doesn't work out at least we tried. There will always be the Keyboard Romantic option admiring photos as i get into my dotage. There are worse things to waste your money on.

Well I think regards to last chance saloon it depends what you're after Steven. If it's more kids then normally you often need a girl so young. If it's a fairly young looking woman then again it's probably around a woman in her thirties. Other than that there are always women nearer your age so I don't think it's a case of last chance in that situation. There's been guys in their early sixties on here who have met a girl in her forties or fifties so I wouldn't panic quite yet.

I have heard the occasional guy on here having used PPL and done ok, but they usually have a real shrewd way about it or got lucky. Most of the time it's not a great move and most guys that come on here saying they've used PPL get pilloried for it lol. The thing with PPL isn't really necessarily how it stacks up against pay monthly cost but that letter writing is more incentivised for the person the other end, the lady, hairy Boris, etc. Some pay monthly sites use agencies too but their letters are usually just intro letters or so to give the newbie a nice warm feeling of interest, i.e that the site hasn't been a complete waste of time joining up to. Like you found there can be done genuine women there and real relationships also.

Free sites like Fdate I find just as good, most women in their thirties onwards will be fine there but like all of them they can have ulterior motives beyond wanting to find love/a companion. It could be something quite benign as wanting to get a bit of free entertainment hanging around with a foreigner, a bit of fun, etc. While at the other end it could be to get a visa, citizenship, get in the country then trade up, gets her hands on guys wealth, etc.

Having used Fdate a while now while I think there are less scammers in the sense of women who deliberately go out to get money of a guy I think like Davo that there are a lot of women with ulterior motives there. In that way I don't think it's a lot better than the PPL or pay monthly sites, the being done over just tend to happen down the road a bit more and probably in a different way. Again there have been men who have met good women of that site and have ended up in a long term relationship, marriage etc without being done over by them.

So I wouldn't say there is an absolute best way, until recent I used to favour Fdate and I wouldn't necessarily still write it off either. While I tried PPL way back in the day briefly just to test it out on a low cost site I'm not that much of a fan of it I personally tend to avoid and haven't used one in the last decade or so.

I think it's fine to go meet the lady you've been communicating with Steven see how she is but if it goes south then maybe consider other methods of meeting a FSW. I think over time it's possible to evolve into finding better ways at meeting FSW in this game.

[Trenchcoat]

98% of girls on Tinder have an ulterior motive!!
But go ahead, everything you will do in Ukraine you will pay extra for.
The only thing I agree with you is the ambiance, nice small big city......Odesa!!

Possibly, they do in the west, lol.

I decided to try it out last night, signed up for the cheapest package on Tinder but for 6 months, I can upgrade during it if needs be. I set my city to Odessa and swiped right on a load of girls for a good half hour or so I reckon just missing out a few who seemed really not my sort from the photo.

Well outcome way better than back home where I tried it a few months back and got very little interest at all. Waking up this morning I got 3 emoji responses and 8 matches on top. So not too bad, all of the girls were in their thirties. I set the age group as 18-38 just out of interest to see if any younger girls would go for me Not so far!

Of the women that went for me I would say they are all pretty much average everyday looking, no horror stories so far to look at but no model types either. Sone of the girls glam themselves up a little almost model style but that's about it.

So far as ulterior motives go well some have their profile written in English, even their name written in English, other girls their name is written in Russian (well I assume it's Russian). So don't know if Tinder or my mobile is converting it into English or the girls are aiming for an English guy whether locally or internationally.

Some of the women, actually quite a lot of them that I was swiping were model like on there, quite a lot posing it up if they were living the high life or from a wealthy background. Some may have put on some slap or tanning etc to look prettier so no difference to the UK there lol. So yeah I got the feeling that some of the women were almost definitely after a pretty wealthy guy.

So are these women genuine that I got up? I think as far as I can tell there are probably a few of them at least that want to find someone for a real relationship. I'm not so sure that they suit me, if I was out there I would likely meet up and see. I think some have stuff I'm not into/not my type of person and some don't look like they would go with me. Some are almost there and who knows.

I can see that the real pretty girls are after a wealthy guy by the way they try to put themselves over as wealthy, the photo background, the way they dress, the lifestyle. I think those girls and a lot of girls in their twenties on that site will likely have ulterior motives, whether it's hook up for sex with a hot guy like it is in the UK or hook up with a wealthy guy who knows. I don't think Tinder is a no go for the FSU it will likely depend on age of guy, etc. I don't see that the women I have up apart from the odd few likely have ulterior motives if anything possibly less than sites like Fdate. My guess from the current selection is maybe 40-50 percent have an ulterior motive at best and a good 50-60 percent probably don't.

On the whole I don't think Tinder is a bad option to try out there, it's useless in the UK but out there probably not bad.