USA needs to attack Russian military in Ukraine

[ML]

USA needs to attack the Russian military in Ukraine.
Forget about NATO not being involved.
USA can act on its own.
USA has gone into many countries with the stated goal of stopping slaughter of the residents.
As moral persons, we cannot just sit by and watch a democratic country be destroyed.
OK, so Russia has threatened to use nuclear weapons.
So what?
Are we going to let Russia do whatever it wants, wherever it wants now and in the future just because they have nuclear weapons?
Go in now with unannounced strikes to hit the large convoy of tanks and trucks all lined up.
Never a better chance to severely cripple the Russian terrorists.
Wife has taken calls from several friends in Ukraine who tell they want to say goodbye now while they still have a chance.  She is crying and shaking constantly.
I hope the Russian supporters here feel good about this.

Many here are doing the 'cop-out' wherein they claim not be be in favor of what Russia is doing . . . but then go on in plain or veiled terms to justify why Russia is doing it.

[Chelseaboy]

Ukraine not being part of NATO is just a convenient cop-out .


NATO went into Bosnia and they weren't part of NATO...just as a European example.


We all know we won't get involved because of Mad Vlad and his Nukes...and he's already threatened to use them if anyone hinders him in Ukraine.


If it's any consolation your wife's friends can still get through this ...but if the nutjob nukes them then they've got no chance.


I have no skin in this game ..i'm not in a relationship with any woman from Ukraine and haven't been back there since a woman i travelled to meet out there tried to scam me ten years ago,,but the whole situation out there gets me down too.


There is no justification for Russia invading Ukraine...end of.


Mans inhumanity to man..it never ends .


Actually i'm just reading on Sky News that Russia has agreed with Ukraine to let civilians leave Ukraine  through safe corridors backed by   ceasefire's,so your wife's friends can now head for safety


Trench that will include Kherson girl..if she hasn't already left.


That's a worry off your mind eh ?

[Trenchcoat]

Zelensky making another stab at dragging the west & NATO in:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10575007/Zelensky-says-pity-Biden-Wests-support-came-war-started.html

I say I stand with Ukraine but not in Ukraine

There's the risk of nuclear war/WWWIII if we get involved. A lot of people aren't interested in putting their lives on the line over the Donbas, Ukraine, etc While it matters to some on here including myself some have never heard of these places, have any connection nor perhaps care.

While I don't like what Russia is doing let's face it the west have been expanding ever further westwards, the EU, NATO. We can easily say it's up to these countries what they wish to do but let's face it the west have been more than willing to intervene militarily in Nations to change their regime to one that western governments find preferably, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, north Africa, etc, etc. So if we push it all our way we shouldn't be surprised that Russia don't like it that it's all going out way as they see it and they are left without Allies.

I think if we keep out of this it may well all be over in a couple of weeks rather than a world war that could go on many years and cost a unimaginable cost to human life and destruction.

[Admin]

USA needs to attack the Russian military in Ukraine.
Forget about NATO not being involved.
USA can act on its own.
USA has gone into many countries with the stated goal of stopping slaughter of the residents.
As moral persons, we cannot just sit by and watch a democratic country be destroyed.
OK, so Russia has threatened to use nuclear weapons.
So what?
Are we going to let Russia do whatever it wants, wherever it wants now and in the future just because they have nuclear weapons?
Go in now with unannounced strikes to hit the large convoy of tanks and trucks all lined up.
Never a better chance to severely cripple the Russian terrorists.
Wife has taken calls from several friends in Ukraine who tell they want to say goodbye now while they still have a chance.  She is crying and shaking constantly.
I hope the Russian supporters here feel good about this.

Many here are doing the 'cop-out' wherein they claim not be be in favor of what Russia is doing . . . but then go on in plain or veiled terms to justify why Russia is doing it.

It comes down to a simple question. Is Ukraine an independent sovereign country with its own right to self-determination? If the answer is YES, then Russian aggressions MUST be condemned. There is no other logical conclusion.

As for the West taking action, I submit the following:

1. In 1994 Ukraine agreed to give up more than 2,000 Soviet-era nuclear weapons.

2. Security 'guarantees' were provided in exchange for this agreement. Those offering guarantees were USA, UK, and Russia - with France and China later becoming signatories.

3. No nuclear nation has ever been invaded. One more time, for effect - NO NUCLEAR NATION HAS EVER BEEN INVADED. If Ukraine had kept its nuclear arsenal, would Russia have chosen its current misadventure? I submit they would not. Nor would they have 'annexed' Crimea in 2014.

4. If a security 'guarantee' is not enforced, why should any other country in the future abandon its nuclear ambitions?

Unlike Chelseaboy, I *do* have 'skin in the game' and it's most precious to me. Nonetheless, there are times one must take a stand. Sean Penn made the statement that if we allow Russian aggression into Ukraine to go unanswered we risk losing our souls. Not normally a fan of Penn, but I agree with him in this instance.

[Admin]

Zelensky making another stab at dragging the west & NATO in:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10575007/Zelensky-says-pity-Biden-Wests-support-came-war-started.html

I say I stand with Ukraine but not in Ukraine

There's the risk of nuclear war/WWWIII if we get involved. A lot of people aren't interested in putting their lives on the line over the Donbas, Ukraine, etc While it matters to some on here including myself some have never heard of these places, have any connection nor perhaps care.

While I don't like what Russia is doing let's face it the west have been expanding ever further westwards, the EU, NATO. We can easily say it's up to these countries what they wish to do but let's face it the west have been more than willing to intervene militarily in Nations to change their regime to one that western governments find preferably, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, north Africa, etc, etc. So if we push it all our way we shouldn't be surprised that Russia don't like it that it's all going out way as they see it and they are left without Allies.

I think if we keep out of this it may well all be over in a couple of weeks rather than a world war that could go on many years and cost a unimaginable cost to human life and destruction.

Yours is an appeal to apathy, without consideration for the ideologies involved.

Do you believe people (in general) have (or should have) the right to self-determination? Yes or No?

Assuming Yes (without the convoluted logic or misplaced justifications or meandering conspiracies some will sling around), which countries support that principle and which do not? Does yours?

How much will you, personally, sacrifice in support of that principle? Will you die fighting for it? If not, then you are accepting subjugation.

[Trenchcoat]

Yours is an appeal to apathy, without consideration for the ideologies involved.

Do you believe people (in general) have (or should have) the right to self-determination? Yes or No?

Assuming Yes (without the convoluted logic or misplaced justifications or meandering conspiracies some will sling around), which countries support that principle and which do not? Does yours?

How much will you, personally, sacrifice in support of that principle? Will you die fighting for it? If not, then you are accepting subjugation.

I would say that people don't have a 'right' to self determination. If people want self determination they have to strive for it but there is no right to it. Otherwise we would have countries fracturing and then fracturing again. First by Region, then Sub-Region then Local Area and finally by City, Town and even Village. The number of different regions at just County level in the UK is many, perhaps over a hundred and each of those Counties have their own regional dialect of speaking English, not huge differences, but differences in accent, local slang, etc. Each County has its local history and tradition, some may have fought against each other in civil wars from long ago, etc, etc. So where does it all stop? Or do we continue until we have a world full of tiny self governing areas where the people have all chosen and been granted a right to self determination?

The EU themselves don't push the idea of self determination as they know it can bring instability to the members that have joined them as a whole country, take Spain for example and it's regions after separation.

So if Ukraine wants to be separate from Russia without it holding any power over it, it's basically down to them. I'm opinion I thing they were stupid to get rid off all their nuclear weapons, sure there was the risk of keeping them but they should have kept at least a couple of hundred, even a handful then they wouldn't be in the position they are in now. They let themselves be fooled by others who were always very unlikely to be able to make good on the assurance or guarantee they gave them. Ukraine themselves are to blame for this it was their responsibility to think of this and act accordingly. For a street wise people they were taken in and made fools off, not so street wise after all it seems. They could have said no but chose not to and instead submitted to the wishes of other powers which were concerned with their own dominance, their fault. If it were me I would say no way in hell are we handing over those Nukes.

Even here in the UK we had to strive for Independence against the EU. Ukraine is already willing to part with their current independence for however long that lasts to lose it to the EU. They don't seem to realise that the EU is just another power hungry organisation who will strip them of their independence. Had we not pushed for Brexit from the EU here in the UK the EU would have succeeded in all of their behind the scenes activities in Brussels to stitch us up and keep us in the EU despite the democratic Leave mandate win in the Referendum. I never saw any other country helping us in our endeavours to leave the EU, it was our fight alone as it had to be.

[Trenchcoat]

I will add as bad as Putin has been in all of this and including the misery he has inflicted on the Ukrainian people I believe that Zelensky is by far the most dangerous man. Zelensky is trying to hook us into what will likely amount to a world war quite possibly involving nuclear weapons and many, many deaths and mass devastation just to help him out in Ukraine.

This fight was never ours, we never promised anything, it's down to Zelensky to sort out Ukraine's issues we were never a part of it however he tries to link us into it.

[Boethius]

^That's the dumbest post you've ever made. 


Give up looking in Ukraine.  Your mentality will never work with a Ukrainian. 

[Trenchcoat]

^That's the dumbest post you've ever made. 


Give up looking in Ukraine.  Your mentality will never work with a Ukrainian.

Yes I know Zelensky is the 'hero of the hour' but there hides the danger that lies within. Zelensky is a showman, he had spent years in acting and knows how to sway the audience. He knows how to play on the situation, his new found fame, to sway matters the way he wants. At the moment he wants to sway the west/NATO into an all out war with Russia to save Ukraine, really? Is that a sane idea? Millions of deaths throughout the world and mass global devastation to save Ukraine.

The snowball of hysteria is already rolling down the hill, he's just got to push it along faster until it rolls so fast it's unstoppable and the west is entering the war in Ukraine on his side without anyone dare uttering a word against it or just being deafened by those eager voices of mass support for us to enter into the Ukraine War and hence WWIII.

Of course I know not to voice my views on Zelensky to a Ukrainian Woman, he is no doubt Christ reborn to them at the moment. They won't likely see the greater danger he poses to world peace. Better to let events play out in Ukraine, bit get involved, not risk global war then move on in my opinion. None of this was our doing, the people of the west, it's not our fight.

[ML]

None of this was our doing, the people of the west, it's not our fight.

So you would be in favor of letting the Germans continue to put Jewish people in the ovens !!!

[Admin]

I would say that people don't have a 'right' to self determination. If people want self determination they have to strive for it but there is no right to it. Otherwise we would have countries fracturing and then fracturing again. First by Region, then Sub-Region then Local Area and finally by City, Town and even Village. The number of different regions at just County level in the UK is many, perhaps over a hundred and each of those Counties have their own regional dialect of speaking English, not huge differences, but differences in accent, local slang, etc. Each County has its local history and tradition, some may have fought against each other in civil wars from long ago, etc, etc. So where does it all stop? Or do we continue until we have a world full of tiny self governing areas where the people have all chosen and been granted a right to self determination?

The EU themselves don't push the idea of self determination as they know it can bring instability to the members that have joined them as a whole country, take Spain for example and it's regions after separation.

So if Ukraine wants to be separate from Russia without it holding any power over it, it's basically down to them. I'm opinion I thing they were stupid to get rid off all their nuclear weapons, sure there was the risk of keeping them but they should have kept at least a couple of hundred, even a handful then they wouldn't be in the position they are in now. They let themselves be fooled by others who were always very unlikely to be able to make good on the assurance or guarantee they gave them. Ukraine themselves are to blame for this it was their responsibility to think of this and act accordingly. For a street wise people they were taken in and made fools off, not so street wise after all it seems. They could have said no but chose not to and instead submitted to the wishes of other powers which were concerned with their own dominance, their fault. If it were me I would say no way in hell are we handing over those Nukes.

Even here in the UK we had to strive for Independence against the EU. Ukraine is already willing to part with their current independence for however long that lasts to lose it to the EU. They don't seem to realise that the EU is just another power hungry organisation who will strip them of their independence. Had we not pushed for Brexit from the EU here in the UK the EU would have succeeded in all of their behind the scenes activities in Brussels to stitch us up and keep us in the EU despite the democratic Leave mandate win in the Referendum. I never saw any other country helping us in our endeavours to leave the EU, it was our fight alone as it had to be.

There is so much convoluted logic in that post, I don't know where to begin. Actually, I won't begin. Any thinking person will be able to see your post for what it is.

[GQBlues]

I would say that people don't have a 'right' to self determination. If people want self determination they have to strive for it but there is no right to it. Otherwise we would have countries fracturing and then fracturing again. First by Region, then Sub-Region then Local Area and finally by City, Town and even Village. The number of different regions at just County level in the UK is many, perhaps over a hundred and each of those Counties have their own regional dialect of speaking English, not huge differences, but differences in accent, local slang, etc. Each County has its local history and tradition, some may have fought against each other in civil wars from long ago, etc, etc. So where does it all stop? Or do we continue until we have a world full of tiny self governing areas where the people have all chosen and been granted a right to self determination?...

I agree. Good post. To engage in this conflict and risk a mutual assured destruction involving billions of people - hell no.

I am saddened to see the fate Ukraine is facing. Today and yesterday. I can also understand the emotional toll this is subjecting folks the world over beyond the suffering of the people of Ukraine. But there's nothing rational to project such fate beyond a thousand fold, and actually believe that's the logical path forward.

Dan, Sean 'snorting' Penn? Are you kidding? I know pre-Madonna Sean and his brother. Are you seriously taking Hollywood noise as a good example of war games stewardship?

[Admin]

I will add as bad

1. as Putin has been in all of this and including the misery he has inflicted on the Ukrainian people I believe that Zelensky is by far the most dangerous man. Zelensky is trying to hook us into what will likely amount to a world war quite possibly involving nuclear weapons and many, many deaths and mass devastation just to help him out in Ukraine.
This fight was never ours,

2. we never promised anything, it's down to Zelensky to sort out Ukraine's issues we were never a part of it however he tries to link us into it.

1. Written as you quake in your boots over the prospect of facing a bully.

2. In fact, you *DID* make a promise. You promised security protections to Ukraine in return for its abandonment of its nuclear arsenal.

[fathertime]

It comes down to a simple question.

No.  It doesn't not come down to a simple question, and definitely not the particular question you posed. 

1. In 1994 Ukraine agreed to give up more than 2,000 Soviet-era nuclear weapons.

Ukraine never had control over those Nuclear weapons.  Russia did.  Ukraine didn't have the apparatus to maintain them.  The world didn't want them to have 1000's of nuclear weapons in their hands. 

4. If a security 'guarantee' is not enforced, why should any other country in the future abandon its nuclear ambitions?

In the world we live in more nations are going need nuclear weapons.  We (The US) actions in the last couple decades have shown what we are willing to do to nations that can't defend themselves.

Yours is an appeal to apathy, without consideration for the ideologies involved.

Yours is an appear to emotion, and in order to convince people it has to also have a strong logical case made with it.  Thus far I'm not seeing enough to be convinced.  Lofty principles of self-determination won't have much of a place if it leads to a post nuclear world.   It's all over all news platforms today.  Many are convinced Putin will take it to the tactical nuclear level.

 

Unlike Chelseaboy, I *do* have 'skin in the game' and it's most precious to me. Nonetheless, there are times one must take a stand. Sean Penn made the statement that if we allow Russian aggression into Ukraine to go unanswered we risk losing our souls. Not normally a fan of Penn, but I agree with him in this instance.

If this conflict leads to WWIII everybody will have skin in the game.  Repercussions will be felt worldwide. 

Fathertime! 

[Trenchcoat]

So you would be in favor of letting the Germans continue to put Jewish people in the ovens !!!

The analogy is hardly the same, let's talk about this situation as it is rather than a different set of circumstances in another time and place.

Now we can either go on a crusade to go out to 'save' Ukraine in its current format, have millions of people die, global devastation, mass suffering throughout the world then having all the effort to rebuild all the buildings we once had.

Or,

We can go out for the best possible outcome, take a negative and turn it as far as we can into a positive. Show everyone the ultimate pointlessness of war. Continue being the sanctions and the way we have, let Russia get ground down until they see the pointlessness of it all, let them see their economy get ground down. Let them see the lack of anything worthwhile left to fight for in Ukraine from the damage done by their attacks and hence the pointlessness of taking that course of action in the first place.

Coming in against Russia proves nothing, it only proves to Putin and Russians he was right in his assertion of the threat posed by the west/NATO. Russians will start to back him as they will see a hostile world to them. Better they see the pointlessness of Putin's actions and the economy being ever ground down as a result. That's the way forward on this I believe as we presently are without going all gun-ho on it all.

[Admin]

I agree. Good post. To engage in this conflict and risk a mutual assured destruction involving billions of people - hell no.

I am saddened to see the fate Ukraine is facing. Today and yesterday. I can also understand the emotional toll this is subjecting folks the world over beyond the suffering of the people of Ukraine. But there's nothing rational to project such fate beyond a thousand fold, and actually believe that's the logical path forward.

Dan, Sean 'snorting' Penn? Are you kidding? I know pre-Madonna Sean and his brother. Are you seriously taking Hollywood noise as a good example of war games stewardship?

Do you feel it somehow improves your argument to seize on a meaningless bit of trivia to launch an ad hominem attack. I cited Sean Penn. I also qualified it. For my part, I don't much care WHO it is, when someone offers something of value, I listen, and I may quote it and I also try to give attribution where it's due. So what?

[fathertime]

2. In fact, you *DID* make a promise. You promised security protections to Ukraine in return for its abandonment of its nuclear arsenal.

There may be a broken promise in there.    We would have to revisit the precise language of the Memorandum.  I guess there is also a question of how binding it was.   This wouldn't be the first promise the US has broken though.

Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

If this whole conflict was about the right for self-determination, then one wonders why Ukraine/Russia even got here. If thatis what it's all about, then the first negotiation that took place should've ended this war. Right, wrong or indifferent - Russia tabled recognition for Crimea's *self-determination*. I'm certain the Donbas region will likely seek for the same thing. Zelensky and Ukraine would be sweeping the streets clean by now.

I can't believe the emotional battle cry many of you are raising. Hell, it's pretty darn impressive! I'll give you that. But man, I think it'll mean so much more if you folks walk your talk - take a one way flight to Poland, cross the border, get in the que and grab yourselves a rifle, then get directions to the front line. Screaming, ranting and beating your virtual chest on a message board isn't serving your convictions well.


Walk your talk, fellas. It'll make a good 'trip report'.

[Trenchcoat]

1. Written as you quake in your boots over the prospect of facing a bully.

2. In fact, you *DID* make a promise. You promised security protections to Ukraine in return for its abandonment of its nuclear arsenal.

1). Emotional trickery to get people suckered in thinking they are standing up to a bully. Whatever Putin is a bully, a madman, a bad guy, etc it no reason to let others embroil us into a fight.

2). There was never any guarantee of military assistance by any party when that agreement was made. It ultimately wasn't the paper it was written on, Ukraine's fault for taking it at face value without seeking further solid military commitments. Had they and been knocked back that should have told them all they needed to know about the worth of that agreement.

[GQBlues]

Do you feel it somehow improves your argument to seize on a meaningless bit of trivia to launch an ad hominem attack. I cited Sean Penn. I also qualified it. For my part, I don't much care WHO it is, when someone offers something of value, I listen, and I may quote it and I also try to give attribution where it's due. So what?

There was no ad hominen attack. You're the one who launched one on trenchcoat. I wasn't arguing about it with you either. If you feel so strongly about what is shaking your emotions, Dan - Zelensky/Ukraine had been asking for 'men' to go and take arms along with them.


I say 'go'!

[Trenchcoat]

But man, I think it'll mean so much more if you folks walk your talk - take a one way flight to Poland, cross the border, get in the que and grab yourselves a rifle, then get directions to the front line. Screaming, ranting and beating your virtual chest on a message board isn't serving your convictions well.


Walk your talk, fellas. It'll make a good 'trip report'.

Brilliant point GQ Yep I can see all the excuses come rocking up now! Anyone willing to put themselves where their conviction are? Go to Ukraine to fight anyone???

[ML]

 Russia blew up the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Station

So now we are going to have nuclear disaster without a bomb.

If the nuclear cat is 'out of the bag' then USA and other like minded countries should immediately bomb Russian terrorists in Ukraine.

[fathertime]

Russia blew up the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Station

So now we are going to have nuclear disaster without a bomb.

If the nuclear cat is 'out of the bag' then USA and other like minded countries should immediately bomb Russian terrorists in Ukraine

...and order (From China) a lot of 1950's desks for the rest of us to take cover under when the missiles start flying.   



Fathertime! 

[Admin]

1. No.  It doesn't not come down to a simple question, and definitely not the particular question you posed. 

2. Ukraine never had control over those Nuclear weapons.  Russia did.  Ukraine didn't have the apparatus to maintain them.  The world didn't want them to have 1000's of nuclear weapons in their hands. 

3. In the world we live in more nations are going need nuclear weapons.  We (The US) actions in the last couple decades have shown what we are willing to do to nations that can't defend themselves.

4. Yours is an appear to emotion, and in order to convince people it has to also have a strong logical case made with it.  Thus far I'm not seeing enough to be convinced. 

5. Lofty principles of self-determination won't have much of a place if it leads to a post nuclear world.

6. It's all over all news platforms today.  Many are convinced Putin will take it to the tactical nuclear level.

If this conflict leads to WWIII everybody will have skin in the game.  Repercussions will be felt worldwide. 

Fathertime!

1. So you say, sans offer of an alternative or context.


2. Indeed the strategic arsenal was largely controlled elsewhere, but that constituted less than half of the entire nuclear arsenal held by Ukraine.

3. The clear interpretation of your statement is that additional countries need to acquire nuclear weapons to protect themselves from the US. Which countries FT?

4. You mistake my posts as trying to convince you. I honestly do not care what you think and my posts don't seek to persuade/convince you of anything. I engage only till I am satisfied my point is understood.

5. Nothing "lofty" about them. They just are. You either feel them or you don't. You either live them or you don't. You either die with them or you don't.


6. Not a chance. Tactical nukes have been obsolete for some time now. Near-peer powers won't deploy tactical nukes. Your fear obscures your logic. The bully has you pissing your pants.

[Admin]

If this whole conflict was about the right for self-determination, then one wonders why Ukraine/Russia even got here. If thatis what it's all about, then the first negotiation that took place should've ended this war. Right, wrong or indifferent - Russia tabled recognition for Crimea's *self-determination*. I'm certain the Donbas region will likely seek for the same thing. Zelensky and Ukraine would be sweeping the streets clean by now.

I can't believe the emotional battle cry many of you are raising. Hell, it's pretty darn impressive! I'll give you that. But man, I think it'll mean so much more if you folks walk your talk - take a one way flight to Poland, cross the border, get in the que and grab yourselves a rifle, then get directions to the front line. Screaming, ranting and beating your virtual chest on a message board isn't serving your convictions well.


Walk your talk, fellas. It'll make a good 'trip report'.

And yet more appeal to hypocrisy.

You don't even recognize it anymore.

Sad.