Which are you more comfortable with- learning Russian versus English lessons?

[prince_alfie]

Let's assume that you and RW met and you really didn't know Russian very well and she didn't know
English very well. Which would be the more "diplomatic" or "gentlemanly" gesture-- spending time to learn Russian or paying for her to learn English through lessons? And which option would you be more comfortable with for your personal situation?

Personally, I will favor a compromise. Showing effort will be a good proof to telling a lady "I really want to make an effort to get to know you better"... I know that some guys are pretty stubborn (in my case, my friend Eric) not to learn the language but I think that a lot of RW would be impressed, needless to say.

[Phil dAmore]

Hmmm.... interesting question.  I suppose the answer would be at least partially dictated by where you and your lady plan to live.

I went to Russia so I had to learn Russian.  Am I comfortable with it?  Not really.  It's been an agonizingly slow process but a necessary one. 

[Russophile]

1) RW appreciate any attempt you make to learn their language
2) You don't need to know Russian to visit FSU and have a good time.  In most cases you will be with an interpreter anyway.
3) Most of the women you will meet will have some knowledge of English.  It is required in their school curriculum.  Most read English pretty well; speaking is the obstacle because they haven't had the practice.
4) I have spent a lot of time with women that knew little English.  We used dictionaries, picture pads, hand gestures, etc and had a great time.  Serious discussions were saved for when an interpreter was present.
5) She will learn English a lot faster than you will learn Russian.  Since she will be the one moving to a new country, the onus is on her to learn the language.  Be wary of the woman that says, "I want to meet a man who speaks Russian"

[ronin308]

I have tried to learn Russian off and on (having free time where I can actually think can be hard for me) out of respect for her and to allow me to communicate with her famiiy better.

As others have said and I will continue to reiterate, the real defining factor is where will you live?  Since about 80% or so will end up in the US it's far more important for her to learn english, not only to communicate with you but also be able to adapt to her new surroundings.  Also if you want to travel to areas outside of the normal FSU holiday destinations it will help her more to understand and speak english than you russian.

My fiance could understand quite a bit of what I was saying when we met but needed some time to develop the ability to converse in English.  Most of the women I've met in their mid to late 20s fall in this category where the younger ones seem to have a bit better english skills.

[catzenmouse]

1) RW appreciate any attempt you make to learn their language
2) You don't need to know Russian to visit FSU and have a good time.  In most cases you will be with an interpreter anyway.
3) Most of the women you will meet will have some knowledge of English.  It is required in their school curriculum.  Most read English pretty well; speaking is the obstacle because they haven't had the practice.
4) I have spent a lot of time with women that knew little English.  We used dictionaries, picture pads, hand gestures, etc and had a great time.  Serious discussions were saved for when an interpreter was present.
5) She will learn English a lot faster than you will learn Russian.  Since she will be the one moving to a new country, the onus is on her to learn the language.  Be wary of the woman that says, "I want to meet a man who speaks Russian"

I'll take a stab at these:

1. Yes they do. And you should also make the attempt as (if it goes further than a couple of dates) you will eventually meet the family and it would show them something of your character if you could at least have a few words with them.

2. No you don't need it but it does make it a lot easier for you to get around on your own. Having an 'terp' with you all the time is fine if you feel the need to be baby sat but you won't really get a good feel for the country that way.

3. Agree completely with this statement.

4. There has been a ton of debate on this subject and yes, you can have a basic communicative process without a common language but to trust a serious/complicated discussion to an interpreter adds a greater degree of risks. It can be done but it can also be done badly.

5. Agree with the first part of this statement. What do you mean by "Be wary of the women who wants to meet a man who speaks Russian"? If we are expecting her to be able to speak English (or whatever language for your country) doesn't she have the right to find a man who can speak with her friends and family without her help?

I think the more each of your learn about the other language the better off you will both be in the long run. My Russian is totally lame but I do enjoy the learning and continue to do it a bit at a time.

Dagnabbit Alfie! Just when I was totally convinced that you could not put a coherent sentence/post together you went and came up with a good topic. I, for one, really hope that you spend more time with real statements and less time with some of the gibberish that you've been spouting. A lot less. Spassiba.

Ken

[Maverick Mikey]

The lady i am currently pursuing speaks English very well and mostly understands me and so i have no chance of practicing Russian to be honest, i would offer English lessons if things develop once we meet in the flesh however i think the more we talk...the less she will need lessons

[docetae]

In our case, each one is learning ... She is learning english, I'm learning russian. It seems to me essential to learn the language, if not for her, to be able to talk and to be autonomous during my travel to Ukraine ... I go there both for personnal and work reasons ... Ukrainian is not enough spreaded, so I focus on Russian for now !

[Russophile]

What do you mean by "Be wary of the women who wants to meet a man who speaks Russian"? If we are expecting her to be able to speak English (or whatever language for your country) doesn't she have the right to find a man who can speak with her friends and family without her help?

Ken,

You are right to ask for clarification.  I was referring to the RW who wants the WM and his money but has no intention of leaving her country.  She wants him to adapt to her way of life.  This is great if the WM plans to stay in the FSU, but otherwise it is a big red flag.

A RW has every right to expect that her WM should be able to converse to some degree with her family.  He would be an arrogant fool not to.

[catzenmouse]

Russophile,

 Thanks for expanding on that for me. If he would like to live there then it is no problem. If she just wants to use his time and money then she is just a professional dater and not worth bothering with.

 I lean back and forth on the fence about moving there. Elena would love it but I still have to be able to work and get around and so far I have not found a decent enough job yet.

Ken

[BillyB]

I've got too many things going in my life and no time to learn a new language. A man has only so much brain power. My finacee appreciates my effort to my kids, her and business first. Having your priorities in order will get the respect of your RW.

[Phil dAmore]

Addendum:

There is another very good reason to learn Russian (or whatever her native language is) that goes beyond being respectful or wanting communication with the rest of the family.

As you approach proficiency you will get a far better understanding of how your lady thinks and processes information.  Why is this important?  Because it will help you to be more patient with her when (and not if) she does something that appears colossally stupid to your western mind.

The language reflects the culture (or maybe the other way around!)  Understanding her, or her habits / quirks / eccentricities will be easier if you understand -and not just know- her native language

[chivo]

Addendum:

There is another very good reason to learn Russian (or whatever her native language is) that goes beyond being respectful or wanting communication with the rest of the family.

As you approach proficiency you will get a far better understanding of how your lady thinks and processes information.  Why is this important?  Because it will help you to be more patient with her when (and not if) she does something that appears colossally stupid to your western mind.

The language reflects the culture (or maybe the other way around!)  Understanding her, or her habits / quirks / eccentricities will be easier if you understand -and not just know- her native language

i think this is one of the most underrated things that men tend to forget about. its been said by me, and a few others who have been through it personally, a number of times to other men and on this and others boards, but it just seems to get somewhat overlooked.

look, i know shes coming to your country, but please don't be so arrogant to think that you shouldn't understand her language and culture, YOURE MARRYING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

great advice. if i can also say that by learning her language better, you will also ease her transition to her new country by allowing her to relax her mind somewhat and give her a feeling of comfort.

ill give you an example, and I'm sure Phil, Rvrwind, and others that live in Russia will totally understand and its this. think of yourself learning a new language and living in a country where they speak a different language than you and you having to think constantly in that language. now think how mentally fatiguing this can be, much less all the others things you have to adapt to.

i can remember when i first moved here and had to deal with this. i cant tell you how good it felt to finally converse in English with someone after 1 1/2 months of nothing but Russian, and how at ease my mind finally felt. words cant describe that feeling.

i then started to change other parts of my life here to English where it became about 50/50 with regard to the amount of Russian/English in my life here.

to always have your in head in another language that you are just learning constantly can drive even the most passive person crazy. think about this when you wonder what the hell is wrong with your woman after shes been in your country for the first few months. ive been here for 2 years and it still at times drives me crazy ( i just spent the last hour trying to get my internet problem solved over the phone in Russian ???), but it will and does get better.

i will say this over and over, and whether you want to deal with it or not is your business, but the more Russian your life is (regardless of where you live) the easier the transition for her (and you), will be. peace out.

chivo

[beattledog]

most correct.  when a man marries a woman from another country, etc, it is most important to understand the cuture of the woman

sad beattledog

[BillyB]

ill give you an example, and I'm sure Phil, Rvrwind, and others that live in Russia will totally understand and its this. think of yourself learning a new language and living in a country where they speak a different language than you and you having to think constantly in that language. now think how mentally fatiguing this can be, much less all the others things you have to adapt to.

Yes, learning a new language FLUENTLY can be mentally fatiguing. You, Phil, and Rvrwind are sort of forced to learn but for the rest of us guys, it's better to focus our mental skills elsewhere. It's important for a man and woman to share a common language, not two common languages, that's why most the guys here tell men it's important that she learn a man's language since she will have to start using it everyday.

[docetae]

Yes, learning a new language FLUENTLY can be mentally fatiguing. You, Phil, and Rvrwind are sort of forced to learn but for the rest of us guys, it's better to focus our mental skills elsewhere. It's important for a man and woman to share a common language, not two common languages, that's why most the guys here tell men it's important that she learn a man's language since she will have to start using it everyday.

learning a language is not hard, Learning the best way to learn the language is hard. There is no silver bullet, each language is different and the way mind is working different too among people. So if you get no result with one method, switch to an another. You will learn more than the language, you will learn how your mind works.

Russian will be my 4th language I learn (french , german and english) and I can tell you that the first not native language is the more difficult.

When you are at the stage to think in the language, this is not fatiguing. Steps before are.

[chivo]

Yes, learning a new language FLUENTLY can be mentally fatiguing. You, Phil, and Rvrwind are sort of forced to learn but for the rest of us guys, it's better to focus our mental skills elsewhere. It's important for a man and woman to share a common language, not two common languages, that's why most the guys here tell men it's important that she learn a man's language since she will have to start using it everyday.

sure, again put all the onus on the woman. obviously you miss the point. no one is telling you to learn the language FLUENTLY. i hardly speak fluent Russian, and after getting serious about the language within the last year i can get around without to much trouble, but things can and do become frustrating, especially the first year. of course she'll have to learn the language of the country shes going too...duh!!!

i think its safe to say anyone who moves to another country where the language is different than the one they speak would be foolish not to.

I'm telling you about the transition for both of you, especially her. of course you can get by without learning Russian, but i can assure you that her transition (and yours) will be easier if you learn some of her language and incorporate some of her culture.

generally speaking of course. maybe your situation will be alright, maybe not, time will tell. but please don't tell me that it wouldn't help her transition, i know it would...tremendously.

and don't be fooled typically by her level of English whatever it may be. unless she IS fluent (and the vast majority aren't) she'll definitely feel alienated and lonely at times. i speak to English speaking Russians all the time and have taken a couple to America with me who spoke good English relative to how Russians speak English, and believe me things were quite confusing for them. were not talking about later, after a couple of years to adjust, were talking about the 0-2 years of adjusting.

again maybe things will be alright, maybe she'll put up with it and eventually be OK, it surely isn't impossible, BUT were talking about making it as comfortable as possible for her, because unless you've spent time in another country, totally dependant on 1 person, or just yourself without a good grasp of the language and culture, you have no idea of the things you'll have to deal with initially (and that can add extra pressure to an already stressful situation).

i'll stand by my statement. the more Russian you incorporate into your life before she get to you, the easier the transition will be for her, and that's all i'm saying. is it impossible to do it without this...of course not, but i'm talking about it making it easier. the choice is yours. peace out.

chivo

[TexasBoar]

As an ESL (English as a Second Language) specialist, I'm going to have to disagree.  The statistical evidence we have (comparing language acquisition rates from California, before and after they stopped funding bilingual education) is that bilingual programs actually hinder second language acquisition; total immersion/mainstreaming with limited ESL support works better.

Believe me, we all wanted the statistics to come out differently, since my entire profession had been bemoaning the California decision as a great injustice, colossal blunder, social disaster, and etc., but facts is facts: California's immigrant/bilingual population is acquiring English faster, better, more, and at a higher level without bilingual support.

I'd had some prior insight into the phenomenon, although I didn't make the connection at the time---in '96 I had to take a summer language intensive in German to fulfill my degree program's foreign language requirement, and after about 6 weeks of half-day total immersion instruction (classes were conducted entirely in German from day one) I found that I could think in German without the need to retranslate in my head . . . as long as I mostly thought about things like the stuff in my "zimmer" and where my parents were "aus," lol. 

Certainly, anyone doing any kind of travelling in the FSU countries should try to learn enough Russian to get around a bit, but thinking that you're doing your new wife any favors by creating a Russian language environment for her here is counterproductive. Of course, the question of how much English an appropriate candidate should already HAVE . . . I'll leave to others with actual experience in such things.  But having dealt with my local ESL program for a decade now (as well as doing the technical writing for the state endorsement training) I can tell you that, in Texas, where 90% of the K12 students in our programs are native Spanish speakers, and most teachers hired for ESL classrooms at the secondary level are bilingual in Spanish, only the non-Spanish speakers (one of my students was from the Ukraine, another from Korea, the rest from Mexico) and the highly motivated Spanish speakers ever learn an appreciable amount of English.  The rest fall back on suckering the teacher into providing bilingual support and never learn a damn thing.

~Boar

[Turboguy]

So Boar, what you are saying is that someone taking English lessons keeps them from learning English.   Hummm, Interesting.  I would never have thought that.

[TexasBoar]

So Boar, what you are saying is that someone taking English lessons keeps them from learning English.   Hummm, Interesting.  I would never have thought that.

Uhmmmm . . . no, I'm not.  ???

I'm saying current educational setting findings make it very clear that if you support second language (i.e., English) acquisition with bilingual support in the language learner's mother tongue, second language acquisition will be significantly delayed.

ESL, by the way, is a set of educational techniques used to teach a English (and content area courses) to non-native speakers without recourse to their native language, and works quite well.  It's also the only way to do it in a school setting, because large districts---Houston, Texas, for example---serve over a hundred languages in their ESL programs.  Good luck finding a certified math or science teacher who's bilingual in Urdu or Hindustani! But any good teacher can learn to use ESL techniques for content delivery.

~Boar

[Turboguy]

Ok, now I understand. If the teacher speaks their language as well as the one they are learning they will learn less taking a class than not talking a class.  OK

Yes, I got a glimpse of how it works here last year when Luda was her and I took her up.  They had Russian, Spanish, Portugese, Japanese & Hindi speakers all in the same class and did not use the students native language at all.  Seemed to work ok. 

[TexasBoar]

Yep.

What happens, inevitably, is that if you provide native language translation support, the student generally only pays attention to that . . . and none at all to the language they're supposed to be acquiring.

People only do as much work as they HAVE to, lol.

~Boar

[prince_alfie]

How easy is it to get ESL courses for a RW once she moves to the States?

[BillyB]

 no one is telling you to learn the language FLUENTLY.

Chivo, re-read the quote in your first post that you agreed with. Also you and Russophile thinks anyone that doesn't agree with you are arrogant not to learn the Russian language. With that kind of attitude, you're not leaving room for people to debate in a sensible manner but to argue so don't get defensive if I or others disagree with you.

Alfie, check with your local colleges and see what they offer for immigrants.

[Rvrwind]

3) Most of the women you will meet will have some knowledge of English.  It is required in their school curriculum.  Most read English pretty well; speaking is the obstacle because they haven't had the practice

I'm surprised Phil didn't pick up on this.
It is not required that they learn English, it is required that they study at least one foreign language. Many choose French or German but it is not required that it be English.
I've been trying to learn Russian for 3 years, it is difficult. I have learned enough that I can participate in short brief conversations of a simplistic nature. I can introduce my wife & myself & I can exchange cordial greetings with my fellow apartment dwellers, some who have become good friends. I understand about 60% of what is spoken to me & speak maybe 15%.
Mostly that stems from havin people laugh when I pronounce the words wrong or get pissed off because I inadvertantly insulted them. I continue to add words to my vocabulary & have found that inserting the easier to pronounce Russian words with English words to substitute those not so easy to pronounce that most people understand me quite well. Of course being in the buisness I am, I am also surrounded by many who speak English therefore making my transition even more difficult as they want to learn English.
I manage to survive & shop & do what needs doing without the aid of an interpreter or my wife.
As sombody said upthread it is only out of respect for her & her culture that you should at least make some effort to learn at least a little of her language. Whether she is moving to the west where English is prevelant or not is irrelavent, it is just plain respect & she will appreciate it, no matter how badly you btcher it.

[chivo]

Chivo, re-read the quote in your first post that you agreed with. Also you and Russophile thinks anyone that doesn't agree with you are arrogant not to learn the Russian language. With that kind of attitude, you're not leaving room for people to debate in a sensible manner but to argue so don't get defensive if I or others disagree with you.

Alfie, check with your local colleges and see what they offer for immigrants.

first of all, no one is getting defensive, so please stop using that as something to promote your argument.

its NOT just about the language either. its about adjusting. i agree to a point with Boar that total immersion is the best way to learn a language, but again this isn't just about the language, not IMHO.

you can get around you new environment without being fluent in a language. obviously you want to become fluent eventually. but...
try learning a new language and living a language 100% of the time and then tell me.

im all for doing things the best way, but again try it yourself. with all due respect for for the "study", i seriously doubt that these students are totally immersed in everything American. they most certainly have an outlet from their native country. my Mexican/Spanish friends who grew up in America still have family get togethers where the flavor has nothing to do with America, everyone speaks or can speak English, but most do not...why? because its their culture, it makes them comfortable, happy and proud.

another thing with respect to the "study", and I'm not sure what was involved and who did it, but teaching someone who 5- 18 yrs old a new language and someone 25+ a new language is a different animal. i have also read studies on this and what effects the development of the brain has after a certain age on learning a new language.

again, its not about just learning a language. its about comfort.

how many of the students they did studies with were coming to get married to a man they barely know? and I'm guessing here, that your not going to be marrying a someone under 18.

take into account the differences in the language as well. have any of you been to Germany and talked to the people there. the last time i was there it seemed like everyone could speak English and at a very high level. matter of fact, everyone i spoke with randomly when asking questions knew English at what i would call fluent. no immersion in the language, no immersion in the culture.

my guess is that its because the language is very similar to English. if I'm not mistaken, and my German friends here told me this, is that both English and German are, well Germanic languages.

again, lastly, its not just about the language.

i have a test for you. try immersing yourself in Spanish for a week where you hear nothing but Spanish and live nothing but Spanish then tell me. and Spanish is in my opinion the easiest language to learn.

better yet try doing it in a language that is completely different than yours grammatically, phonetically, etc., like Russian and then tell me how your head feels...then get married to someone who you've known for a short while and never lived with for the rest of your life and then tell me about total immersion.

and yes it can be done, but yes it is arrogant to think that its the way it should be done. but god bless you and good luck, you're going to need it in more ways than one. peace out. 

chivo

ps