THE REALITY OF DIVORCE

[BillyB]

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

  Looking at site given by the link above, one can see European FSU nations have a high divorce rate comparable with mid-North European and North American nations while Asian FSU nations have a low divorce rate comparable with Southern European countries. I'm sure there is some difference and error in taking these statistics between nations but it shouldn't be by much. 

     Why would one nation have a divorce rate of 5% and another 68%? I've looked at differences in economy, religion, culture, freedoms, and government and there seems to be no clear cut answer to why some nations have a high divorce rate and others that are similar low.

     I have not seen any reliable statistics showing how successful international marriages are. I've heard the divorce rate is anywhere from 20% to 80%.

     My fiancee is from Uzbekistan and once someone asked me if I'd recommend Uzbek women over others and I told him a guy should judge each woman as an individual, not where they come from. But after seeing Uzbek marriages have a 12% divorce rate compared to Russia's 65%, I can't help but to think there are serious differences between the men and women between nations and how they value their marriage. What are the differences? Of course all who enters marriage wants to have a successful marriage so is search FSU nations in Europe smart? Certainly searching for women in the FSU isn't for the meek. Should we solely continue to judge each woman for marriage as an individual or should we give some weight to what nation they're from? As one thinks of marriage, the reality of divorce should be taken into consideration since the goal is to stay married. Your thoughts on this issue?

[Elen]

Billy your fiance is RUSSIAN but not UZBEK woman    so you should see a line devoted to Russian Federation

Among FSU nation difference is first od all  a difference in religions

[viking]

IMHO I do not think government, religion, or freedoms are key issues. That leaves economy and culture. If the breadwinner (typically the man) cannot support his family that is a major factor. Financial problems are key to divorce here as well. As far as culture is concerned, I am always hearing about how Russian men have this 'thing' about sleeping around and treating their wives as more furniture than as a partner. I realize this is a generalization and is not meant to pigeon hole anyone. Also it seems that RW seem to marry at an early age, around 20 or so, and have children fairly quickly. That can put a big strain on any marriage.

[Elen]

It's all about national traditions ( where religion is at one of the main places) - muslim and Caucasus nations always had more low rate of divorces.
But it was not only about males- better providers-better husbands and etc in republics with low divorce rate but in huge degree it was ( and still is) about "submissive" role of women in such societies
Social stigma about divorced women in Russia and divorced woman in some Muslim republic is not the same. So woman would think twice and more time before asking a divorce in Muslim society  - it's a stain and real stain in many Muslim ( and Caucasian) parts of FSU - especially in countrysides


PS about RW marry in 20s  You boys also tell that RW are well educated When do they manage to get that education if they marry and get children in 20s?

[viking]

Elen,

Thank you for calling me a boy!! I love ya. Well, not really. Well, you girls have told me that the higher education came  AFTER the divorce. After the child was old enough to be left alone. What I don't understand is that so many girls have these degrees but can't find a job in their profession and work at something not even close to what they were studying.

[SANDRO43]

But after seeing Uzbek marriages have a 12% divorce rate compared to Russia's 65%, I can't help but to think there are serious differences between the men and women between nations and how they value their marriage.

BillyB, the stats you quote give Italy the same 12% divorce rate as Uzbekistan. I don't know Uz much,  but I'll bet there are HUGE differences between the people of the two countries.

In our case, divorce is fairly recent (1974 IIRC, and it took a national referendum to overcome the stubborn opposition of political parties influenced by the Vatican's no-no position). Our divorce rate was rather high in the 1980s (divorce could be obtained only 5 years after initial court proceedings, and there was a substantial backlog of old, rotten marriages to clear), then stabilised but has been slowly but steadily on the increase.

The widely-accepted interpretation here is both ECONONICAL and LEGAL :

1. Since Italian women are no longer just housewives as of old (and therefore totally dependent financially on their husbands), they no longer have to grin and bear. Now they can tell their husbands to "GER OFF, I can live much better on my own". 

2. Possibly because we adore women so much , the settlements meted out by Italian judges are strongly in favour of ex-wives : they'll get the marital house, a substantial alimony, and child custody in 98% of the cases. So, divorce may be an attractive solution even to non-working women.

I've heard of a number of cases of smart FSUW married to Italians who got wind of the prevailing conditions and hastened to take advantage of it. Therefore, tying up with another thread, my cunning solution would be to seek an English-speaking FSUW and PREVENT her from EVER attempting to learn Italian, thus cutting her off completely from local TV, newspapers, womens' magasines, etc.

[BillyB]

BillyB, the stats you quote give Italy the same 12% divorce rate as Uzbekistan. I don't know Uz much,  but I'll bet there are HUGE differences between the people of the two countries.

Yes, huge differences such as economy and religion. I noticed most Christian European nations in the Southern Europe such as Greece and Spain have low divorce rates so I can't say the Italian government and Vatican have a huge influence in Italy's divorce rates.

Viking, most prosperous nations and the most prosperous nations in the FSU have the highest divorce rates. Your theory of financial problems lead to divorce doesn't quite factor in with the poorer nations. Could it be in the more prosperous nations, women are financially making it on their own, thus not as reliant on a husband and have an easier time walking away from the marriage?


Elen, Yes my fiancee is Russian but she never told me that. I guessed . She always said she's an Uzbek citizen since she was born in Uzbekistan and I'm sure the culture has affected her line of thinking different than if she had lived in Russia all her life. The food she eats is much different too. I would think most Muslim nations have a low divorce rate but FSU Christian nations in the same area such as Armenia and Georgia have low and lower divorce rates than the average FSU Muslim nation.

[SANDRO43]

Yes, huge differences such as economy and religion. I noticed most Christian European nations in the Southern Europe such as Greece and Spain have low divorce rates so I can't say the Italian government and Vatican have a huge influence in Italy's divorce rates.

In our case, the certainly HAD : our divorce rate was 0% (because there was NO divorce, only SEPARATION, except for the wealthy few who could afford the complicated and expensive procedure of obtaining annullment from the Vatican's Marriage Court, the Sacra Rota). 

Wiz may enlighten us on the Greek situation. I think Spain got their divorce laws rather recently (no Spanish RWD member, I think ), their economy has been expanding steadily since the Caudillo left them and this may explain their higher 17% (similarly to Italy in the 1980s). However, they were always more devoutly religious than us. On the other hand, Zapatero just gave them gay marriages (which could lower their current rate), etc. etc.

What I mean to say is that the interpretation of raw data like divorce rate is rather complicated and will vary from country to country. Economics definitely play a major role, religion also, history too. When you try to draw universal conclusions and make comparisons, you enter a potential minefield.

 

[Russophile]

The statistics can be very misleading sometimes.  It only states actual divorces, not marriages that ended by other means.  For example, in India and  Muslim nations there are a lot of 'kitchen fires' that take the lives of women....marriage over.

[Wild Orchid*]

Elen, Yes my fiancee is Russian but she never told me that. I guessed . She always said she's an Uzbek citizen since she was born in Uzbekistan and I'm sure the culture has affected her line of thinking different than if she had lived in Russia all her life. The food she eats is much different too. I would think most Muslim nations have a low divorce rate but FSU Christian nations in the same area such as Armenia and Georgia have low and lower divorce rates than the average FSU Muslim nation.

Do you think she could be sold into marriage? Do you think she could meet her groom the day before her wedding? That’s what happens to Uzbek girls and others especially from remote areas in all Asian FSU countries. And after such wedding there is no way out from a “happy marriage”, no wonder divorce rate is so low bat there is a high rate of suicide among newlywed females as well.  That is what makes all the difference between being Russian born and bread in Uzbekistan and real Uzbek woman.

[Wild Orchid*]

Is it good or bad to have high divorce rate? What would you prefer - to live in unhappy marriage or get a divorce?  In many those countries with low divorce rate divorce is not an option for women, they can’t initiate it and have to put up with what ever situation in front of them. Is this a picture of a perfect life for you?

[BillyB]

Do you think she could be sold into marriage? Do you think she could meet her groom the day before her wedding? That’s what happens to Uzbek girls and others especially from remote areas in all Asian FSU countries. And after such wedding there is no way out from a “happy marriage”, no wonder divorce rate is so low bat there is a high rate of suicide among newlywed females as well.  That is what makes all the difference between being Russian born and bread in Uzbekistan and real Uzbek woman.

Is it good or bad to have high divorce rate? What would you prefer - to live in unhappy marriage or get a divorce?  In many those countries with low divorce rate divorce is not an option for women, they can’t initiate it and have to put up with what ever situation in front of them. Is this a picture of a perfect life for you?

I've talked to a few Uzbek girls and asked them about Uzbek men. They told me the only thing they worry about is that their future husband will be violent and controlling. They didn't mention they could be sold into marriage. I'm sure strange things happen in remote areas of Uzbekistan as well as Russia or USA, no need to pick on Central Asian or Muslim nations. Uzbeks aren't hard core Muslims. I've been in restaraunts where pork is on the menu and I've never seen an Uzbek woman fully covered in clothes. I've seen Muslims in the US fully covered though.

A country having a high divorce rate doesn't mean people are getting out of a bad marriage because their partner is bad. Some nations make it easier than others to divorce. Some people were imature when they married and didn't know what they were doing and then changed their minds. Some people want to escape responsibility and yes, you are responsible to your spouse. some people can't get along with anybody for a significant amount of time and aren't marriage material. Actress Elizabeth Taylor was divorced 8 or 9 times. I think the abuse exuse is over used when it comes to divorce.

I have heard female castration in Muslim nations keeps females from straying in marriage.

Russophile, the feminists in the Western World would argue more women are dying at the hands of their Western husbands as much as anywhere else.

[Wild Orchid*]

I've talked to a few Uzbek girls and asked them about Uzbek men. They told me the only thing they worry about is that their future husband will be violent and controlling. They didn't mention they could be sold into marriage. I'm sure strange things happen in remote areas of Uzbekistan as well as Russia or USA, no need to pick on Central Asian or Muslim nations. Uzbeks aren't hard core Muslims. I've been in restaraunts where pork is on the menu and I've never seen an Uzbek woman fully covered in clothes. I've seen Muslims in the US fully covered though.

A country having a high divorce rate doesn't mean people are getting out of a bad marriage because their partner is bad. Some nations make it easier than others to divorce. Some people were imature when they married and didn't know what they were doing and then changed their minds. Some people want to escape responsibility and yes, you are responsible to your spouse. some people can't get along with anybody for a significant amount of time and aren't marriage material. Actress Elizabeth Taylor was divorced 8 or 9 times. I think the abuse exuse is over used when it comes to divorce.

I grew up and lived in Muslim region of Russia - Tatrstan. Arranged marriages are not happening and haven’t been for a long time in this part of Russia or any other for that matter, but   unfortunately it is still reality in Kirgizstan, Tadzhikistan etc. We do have women on my town covered from heard to toe, but they are covered by their own choice. All my Muslim girlfriends were restricted in their choice of the boyfriend, they could go out only with Muslim guys, but they still could marry the man they loved and knew long time before the wedding. In some Asian countries of FSU girls get kidnapped from the streets by  strangers and force into marriage. No divorces after… Happy ending.
I wasn’t talking about being Muslim or not Muslim, it is more about traditions … Of course In Tashkent people more educated and civilized, but not every Uzbek, Kirgiz lives in the city. I’ve seen documentary  about girls being kidnapped for a marriage by some guy. He comes to a town or city with his mates, walk down the streets, sits in a café or some other places and checks out the girls. Next day he grabs one he lakes the most of the street, puts her in the car and takes her to his village where flock of women is already waiting and on her arrival they start pressurizing her into marrying him. They don’t care that she might be a student, that her parents are looking for her franticly because they don’t know what happens to her… It is quite sad.

[Elen]

Elen,

Thank you for calling me a boy!! I love ya. Well, not really. Well, you girls have told me that the higher education came  AFTER the divorce. After the child was old enough to be left alone. What I don't understand is that so many girls have these degrees but can't find a job in their profession and work at something not even close to what they were studying.

Your girls "lied" to you  Really it's not in Russian traditions to get high education in "older" ages having already children. 80-90% of frirst year students in Universities are  young people 17-18 years old who entered Univercities right after graduating secondary school. It's really much harder to pass exams if time passed already after you finished secondary school. I'm about "free-of-pay" high education where entering exams are difficults and competition among candidates is hard. There are of course "private" UNivercities but again not evryone has money to pay for such high education and even there  there is not too many women with children.

[Elen]

. I would think most Muslim nations have a low divorce rate but FSU Christian nations in the same area such as Armenia and Georgia have low and lower divorce rates than the average FSU Muslim nation.

That's why I added Caucasian region in my post - even being Christians they do have "another" family traditions which are more close to "muslims" than to russians

[Bruno]

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

  Looking at site given by the link above, one can see European FSU nations have a high divorce rate comparable with mid-North European and North American nations...

and now, take a look at :

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate

It show the divorce rate by 1000 people... and in these case, USA is the top country...

Your statistic show a divorce rate related to the number of marriage... previously, a lot of Russian have marry very early in the life... no not so much marriage are make in Russia today and the first marriage begin more late in the life...  because of this, it give a bad ratia to the divorce rate when related to marriage ( who are very low now in Russia )...

Let see it with a extreme example... in 2005, 1000 marriage was make in Russia and 100 divorce was make... in 2006, 100 marriage and 100 divorce are make in Russia... Your stat will give a 100% divorce rate for 2006 when related to marriage... but if yourself use the basic data, for these two year, 200 divorce on 1100 marriage is not a very bad ratio...

I think that the actual divorce rate by 1000 people is a more realist statistic... but the best will be a divorce rate by people during a full lifetime; of course so statistic don't exist...

Now, let see the source of the data... the data show on divorcemag are from infoseek... they are data from 1998... the more recent that i have find are from 2002... take a look at http://www.divorcereform.org/gul.html

The divorce rate by 100 marriage is :
- Russia : 43.3
- USA : 54.8 ( second place after Sweden )
- Ukraine : 40

So, it seem that the situation become better in Russia for the divorce rate... It was maybe true during the transition of communist system to democratic system... periode with a lot of economic difficulty where the marriage rate have drop a lot... and the fact that young russian have begin marry more late have not help statistic...

In conclusion, the divorce rate lower in Russia... it is already lower that in USA... so, don't be afraid to marry a RW, ( 54.8 + 43.3 ) / 2 = 49.05 is the statistical divorce rate for a AM with a RW... lower that the 54.8 is you marry a AW...

[SANDRO43]

and now, take a look at :http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate

Bruno, I have some doubts about the reliability of those data. It's a non-official site, they cite their SOURCE as divorcereform.org. If you go there, you'll see that links to detailed national data are either dead or 5-10 years old.

[Bruno]

Bruno, I have some doubts about the reliability of those data. It's a non-official site, they cite their SOURCE as divorcereform.org. If you go there, you'll see that links to detailed national data are either dead or 5-10 years old.

Yes, these data are old for http://www.divorcereform.org/gul.html but these table was make in 2002 with the more recent data in these time...

The previous table from Billy was make in 1998 with the more recent data in these time...

Between the two table, you have 4 years... and between the more recent and now, you have 4 year more...

The only way to have realiable statistic is use the data from the census of each country... very big work... and not yet sure that all will be actual since census are not make every year...

So, in conclusion, statistic are a tool but a imperfect tool... specially when it is related to country who change a lot in a few year ( like Russia and Ukraine )

[Zmejka]

All my Muslim girlfriends were restricted in their choice of the boyfriend, they could go out only with Muslim guys, but they still could marry the man they loved and knew long time before the wedding.

As i also grew up in the capital of Tatarstan i can second this opinion and i know the example of my muslim friend, her family first was against her Russian boyfriend. But with time they found a common ground and they got married eventually. As for divorce think in muslim families the rate is lower - but again - the same example with my friend - her father was always a good example for everybody, loving father for his 2 daughters and caring husband, always together with his wife. And only not so long ago his wife knew that he had a side family and children!!! for already many years. Now they are in divorce and he went to live with his another family Such a crush of used to be a happy marriage

[BillyB]

and now, take a look at :

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate

It show the divorce rate by 1000 people... and in these case, USA is the top country...

Your statistic show a divorce rate related to the number of marriage... previously, a lot of Russian have marry very early in the life... no not so much marriage are make in Russia today and the first marriage begin more late in the life...  because of this, it give a bad ratia to the divorce rate when related to marriage ( who are very low now in Russia )...

Let see it with a extreme example... in 2005, 1000 marriage was make in Russia and 100 divorce was make... in 2006, 100 marriage and 100 divorce are make in Russia... Your stat will give a 100% divorce rate for 2006 when related to marriage... but if yourself use the basic data, for these two year, 200 divorce on 1100 marriage is not a very bad ratio...

I think that the actual divorce rate by 1000 people is a more realist statistic... but the best will be a divorce rate by people during a full lifetime; of course so statistic don't exist...

Now, let see the source of the data... the data show on divorcemag are from infoseek... they are data from 1998... the more recent that i have find are from 2002... take a look at http://www.divorcereform.org/gul.html

The divorce rate by 100 marriage is :
- Russia : 43.3
- USA : 54.8 ( second place after Sweden )
- Ukraine : 40

So, it seem that the situation become better in Russia for the divorce rate... It was maybe true during the transition of communist system to democratic system... periode with a lot of economic difficulty where the marriage rate have drop a lot... and the fact that young russian have begin marry more late have not help statistic...

In conclusion, the divorce rate lower in Russia... it is already lower that in USA... so, don't be afraid to marry a RW, ( 54.8 + 43.3 ) / 2 = 49.05 is the statistical divorce rate for a AM with a RW... lower that the 54.8 is you marry a AW...

Bruno,

When looking around for divorce statistics, I chose not to use the divorces per 100,000 people because those numbers are dependent on the amount of marriages per 100,000 people. The organizations who uses those charts to show America has the most divorces per 100,000 people are usually anti-American or religious groups who want to raise an alarm. The truth is Americans, per person, are getting married more than any nation except Mauritius and I could use the statistics for propaganda to show Americans value marriage and are some of the most marriage minded people in the world.
http://www.encarta.msn.com/media_701500518/Marriage_and_Divorce_Rates.html

Wild Orchid, is it such a bad thing if say a Muslim woman or man who decides to stay in an average or bad marriage due to what their family thinks? Of course that person is weighing pros and cons of staying in a marriage and if the opinions of family is very important, then it would be justified on their part to value that opinion. After all we at these forums give out opinions and advice and of course we hope the recipient of the advice takes it wholeheartedly. People in the Western world are more individualist compared to Muslims and family's opinions on issues aren't as accepted, but if it wasn't for counselors, psychologists, and church heads trying to steer marriages to succeed, more people would take the easy road to divorce.

[beattledog]

my future wife, is a muslin woman.  I did not read her religion on the profile and fell  for a woman of this relgion.  She is converting to Christian religon, but she does not believe in divorce

very sad beattledog

[Wild Orchid*]

Wild Orchid, is it such a bad thing if say a Muslim woman or man who decides to stay in an average or bad marriage due to what their family thinks?

To stay in a bad marriage just because your family want you to? Would you like to do that? Divorce is very important event in the live of any person. Most of us don't take it lightly. I believe you had to go through divorce, and i did as well. Didn't you ask for opinion of your family before you made finale decision? I did. What would you do if they said.. no, you should stay together doesn't matter what... Would you?

My mother asked for my opinion when I was 10. Of course I said NO for many reasons, she didn't divorce him then, 8 years later, but never separated from him, and we had the hell of the life. When I asked her why she didn't finalise a divorce and moved out or made him to move out, she said that I didn't want her to, I said NO, back then I said million times yes, but she's chosen to remember the first time. Divorce is not always a bad thing, sometimes it is a beginning of something new and wonderful.

[Oiler]

Two people from countries with high divorce rate Russian and America doesn't bode well. If one has substantial assets it is prudent to get a pre-nup. Even then the RW wins as she gets free passage to a foreign country. No wonder they are so willing to meet foreigners.

[corp]

Since we are addressing people who find freedom from "not so good" marriages and using stats, wonder what stats will tell us about the children effected by divorce, do they step out into the sun light of freedom too, when the judges gavel slams down?

[Wild Orchid*]

Since we are addressing people who find freedom from "not so good" marriages and using stats, wonder what stats will tell us about the children effected by divorce, do they step out into the sun light of freedom too, when the judges gavel slams down?

I am one of the children who never got that freedom though it was promised to me, I wish I had it… So many kids feel happier when their parents get divorce - no more fighting’s, quarrels  or dead drop silence, when nobody talks to each other…  Yes, children are affected by divorces, but quite often there is no other way around..