RW Demographics

[Russophile]

In a previous thread, I made this statement:

“There is a tremendous shortage of husband material in the FSU.  Anyone looking at the statistics will easily see that millions of otherwise deserving RW will never have the opportunity to experience marriage, family and children in their own country.”

Some of you objected strongly to such a statement so I will give you the figures

Russia 2002 census
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia#Population_data

Population: 145 million
Age 15-64  .94 male/female (a 6% excess of females)
6% of 145 million is 8.7 million females in the country for which there is not a corresponding male.

Ukraine 2001 census
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Census_%282001%29

Population: 48,457,000
46.3% male
53.7% female  (a 7.4% differential)
7.4% of 48,457,000 is 3.5 million excess females.

Lets round the numbers and say that in the two countries there is a combined total of  about 12 million excess females.

I will make a real conservative estimate and say that 10% of these excess females are of marriageable age (20-50) and have never been married.  That gives us 1.2 million RW who don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of finding a traditional Russian man to create a family with children.

And having had the blessings and sorrows of two marriages and many children,  I say, without apology, that these statistics make me sad.

[BillyB]

Russophile,

These demographic numbers has been debated many times in RW forums. Don't believe the agency hype. The numbers in Russia and Ukraine are similiar to America in the age group of men and women in the prime years people get married. Life expectancy of Russian men and women have about a 14 year age gap while American men and women have just over a 5 year age gap. So there are an abundance in grandma's in Russia with not many men available for them to be married too. Other than that, there is close to a 1 to 1 ratio of men for women to marry. And don't feel sorry for RW, some choose not to marry no matter how many men are available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_America

[jb]

Russophile,

Since I was one who took you to task on the other thread I'll take a stab at setting you to rights here. 

Your stat numbers run amok when you include 15-64 ages within your marriage ages to extract your "husband shortage" theories, this is much too broad.  If you ran more realistic ages, i.e., 20-35, which are the age ranges of virtually all Russians when they marry, I think you'll find the genders parts are pretty much dead equal.  For every girl there is a boy, there is no shortage of husband material when the girls are ready to get married.  I think we saw another survey which showed an increase in the ages when girls were getting married, up from 19 to 24, but that was because of an uplifting of lifestyles and economics, which is bad news for the aging lotharios like yourself who seek wives abroad .

Here's the part you are not snapping wise to,,, there may be 100,000 women FSU-wide who list themselves as candidates for marriage to foreigners.  This number came to us from some really smart guy named AndrewFI who actually lives somewhere over there and counted them one night in a Disco .... But that's beside the point... Anyway, 100,000 is actually a really small number, percentagewise, if you compare to the entire FSU population, close to 300 million folks.  After the USSR went splits, Russia was left with only about half it's former numbers, the rest are now Ukrainians and others.

There are two kinds of women who want to move away from the FSU, good women,,, and bad women.  Most of the good ones will have been married (in their 20's), divorced, and prolly have a kid or two.  The bad ones will have been single and never married up through their mid-30's, these are the hookers, crooks, con artists,,, and often times the sponsored women who have lost their franchise to a younger girl (they got traded in for younger and prettier) and need to leave their sordid past behind.  When you specifically target a single, over 30, never married, no children sort of woman, you run up the odds of acquiring a GCG or a retired prostitute.

Now,,, that's speaking plainly, if you want to rescue a retiring hooker, set her up in your house, marry and knock her up, and face the increasing odds she will kick you out in the cold one day and wind up owing your house while you will live out your years under a bridge in a large cardboard box,,, then don't pay attention to anything I've ever said.

But them's the facts of life.

[Vaughn]

  Speaking only for my wife's hometown of Yoshkar-Ola, there seems
to be a greater number of females, particularly of marriageable age.
We attended what would have been my stepdaughter's graduation -
her class included 18 girls but only 4 boys - two other classes were
similarly disproportionate - and according to my wife, who taught in
that school system for a decade, the lobsidedness is common.

  I once asked my stepdaughter why so many young ladies marry at
a tender age over there. Her reply was instantaneous: "Because there
are so few men, and there's haste to grab the best available before
another does." That's the mindset: you snooze, you lose.

  I've got two brothers-in-law (well, one's actually a cousin's hubby),
and both are good husbands. I saw many young couples with babies
on the busses and marshrutnoe taxis, many more than I noticed in
2001-2002. Most guys 24 and older seem
to be married, but I still saw many hundreds of single nubile women
attending events and walking through parks unescorted. This is not
to imply that many of them would be willing to leave their homeland,
though. Many of my wife's unmarried friends in their 30's and 40's
have immersed themselves in careers or self-owned businesses.

[beattledog]

Perhaps, you can help these females get attached to friends of you.  They see your happiness and ready to take the plunge

Wise beattledog

[Wild Orchid*]

I used to work in the law college in Russia, how many boys compare to girls? 50/50 I’d have to say. The same was in my son’s class…

[Vaughn]

Wild Orchid, this graph published by the Federal State Statistics
Service bears that out:  (y axis ~ age)



The inequity really appears in the golden years....Perhaps my
observance of many available women in my wife's hometown
was valid, yet the same number might exist right here - but
I'm just not bothering to observe on the homefront. Still, my
wife and daughter assert there's a shortage of men in Yoshkar-Ola.
Me, I'm wondering where all the young boy classmates are - working on
the farm?

Perhaps, you can help these females get attached to friends of you.  They see your happiness and ready to take the plunge

Beattledog, they ask kiddingly if we have unattached male friends. Fact is,
we do, but none are interested in foreign brides enough to honestly pursue it. Come to Yoshkar next summer with us and we'll introduce you to a boatload of nice women, with genuine names, addresses and phone numbers - and no fees.

[Turboguy]

I went out with a gal a few times on my last trip to Moscow who had moved there from a small city way up north where it still snows in June.   She told me all the men had left and gone to Moscow and other bigger cities where the pay is better.   She said the gals up there can't get a date no matter what they do.  There is just no one to go out with.   It could be a similar scenario for some of the other cities in Russia.

[prince_alfie]

Vaughn, good diagram. Demographical graphs are the best way to figure out the percentage of marriageable females.

[Vaughn]

Diagrams and graphs are idle chatter.

The chances of eventual bliss are at zero until
one's made the journey. Alfie, when are you going
to break the ice and get an FSU visa?

[BC]

Demographics works like this:

When I was younger there were plenty of available females.

Divorced, in my mid 40's, all I was looking at is the leftovers within the group of 'available' females.  I knew plenty of attractive females but they were either married or were able to accept a 'fling' with an older man but not a true relationship. For all practical purposes I was also a leftover.

Lets be honest and face up to the fact that for whatever reason we 'missed the bus' and the younger, better looking females in the FSU that are willing to compromise for our attention is attracting us like flies to flypaper.

Demographics are an excuse to explain the direction the male appendage is pointing.. Nothing more, nothing less.

To be quite crass, if IMBRA placed a requirement that the age difference cannot be more than +- 5 years we would not be sitting on our butts posting here this evening.

Time to stop beating around the bush..

[beattledog]

Demographics really do not matter, but it does increase a person's chances. In the state, where I reside, there are more single females in Chattanooga.  I found my lady in Tashkent, although I was looking mainly at the Colombian woman.   We never know where love and the Lord will lead us.

sad beattledog

[TexasBoar]

Demographics works like this:

When I was younger there were plenty of available females.

Divorced, in my mid 40's, all I was looking at is the leftovers within the group of 'available' females.  I knew plenty of attractive females but they were either married or were able to accept a 'fling' with an older man but not a true relationship. For all practical purposes I was also a leftover.

Lets be honest and face up to the fact that for whatever reason we 'missed the bus' and the younger, better looking females in the FSU that are willing to compromise for our attention is attracting us like flies to flypaper.

Demographics are an excuse to explain the direction the male appendage is pointing.. Nothing more, nothing less.

To be quite crass, if IMBRA placed a requirement that the age difference cannot be more than +- 5 years we would not be sitting on our butts posting here this evening.

Time to stop beating around the bush..

QFT! (Quoted For Truth!)

No one in their right mind would go halfway around the world for something they could get next door.

I'm a newbie, and still undecided, but the only reason I'm considering it at all is my dissatisfaction with them "leftovers" . . . and the example right out there of those who spent a little time and money and hassle, but got a much better deal. 

~Boar

[KenC]

The way I understood the "lay of the land" in Russia back when I was romancing my now wife of 7 years, is that there WAS a shortage of men.  A shortage of men that could afford to support not only himself, but another person as well(his woman).  Therefore it was not unusual for a man with money (usually older) to have a mistress that he would support financially.  It was also not unusual for a business owner to expect sexual favors from his younger female employees.  How frequently these two things happened is a matter of debate in my mind.  I don't know if they happened frequently enough to be a consideration for any conclusions when reading a woman's profile for example.  I would be suspect of any woman living well without any obvious means of support though.  The money has to come from somewhere.  I know my wife has girlfriends back in Russia that have been mistresses to older married men and she also has friends that just have rich parents too.  So I don't think one can make any assumptions here.

But I do bring this up to make another point.  Because it is not considered bizzare behavior for a young woman to be in a position of accepting an older lover (with financial benifits), it may make the acceptance of loving an older man without regard to financial gain more understandable.  Think of it this way; if you know and accept that your friends Olga and Sveta are being supported by older married men and that Yulia has to occasionally sleep with her older boss, why would you not consider a relationship with an older man that is not using his financial supperiority to get into your pants?  Regardless of how prevelant it is, an older man with a younger woman has crept into the fabric of Russian culture, like it or not.  Maybe not in the traditional sense of marriage and a more normal relationship, but it is there none the less.
KenC

[jb]

KenC,

Seven years ago the economy in Russia was in the tank so bad most of the men had crawled into a vodka bottle.  I can't say I wouldn't do the same if faced with the shame that they did.  Things are very different now, with decent employment growing everyday Russian men are reasserting themselves within their own society.   I don't know the labor situation in Tver, but Moscow is thriving, the average wages have increased over 100% in the past 5 years while real costs of living for the average citizen Moscovite have remained comparatively low.  The bite is on the newcomers flocking to Moscow hunting the higher paying jobs, since they don't already own a Moscow flat they are taking a serious hit for living quarters if they rent. 

Russsia ain't the same country you first visited 7 years ago.

[Russophile]

I don't know the labor situation in Tver, but Moscow is thriving, the average wages have increased over 100% in the past 5 years while real costs of living for the average citizen Moscovite have remained comparatively low.  The bite is on the newcomers flocking to Moscow hunting the higher paying jobs, since they don't already own a Moscow flat they are taking a serious hit for living quarters if they rent.

And the influx of men from outlying cities can lead to a relative shortage of men in those areas, No?

People in Russia I have talked to say that there are two economies in Russia...Moscow and then the rest of Russia.  The rest of Russia is still an economic backwater.

Some of you men with a large disposable income may want to check out sugardaddie.com.  All of the benefits and they already speak English.

[jb]

Russophile,

People in Russia I have talked to say that there are two economies in Russia...Moscow and then the rest of Russia.  The rest of Russia is still an economic backwater.

Much of what you say may be true.  Is it your intent to pray upon the weaker, more desperate folk?  Those not living in a place where jobs and income are available?  In my humble opinion this makes you a predator of sorts.  How does that make you feel?  Still in the "knight in shining armor" mode, I guess.  I don't know how a person justifies playing on economic disaster for personal or emotional gain, but whatever works for you I guess is what you can live with.

However, you will never know if she came to you because she loved you, or for what she thought she could get from you. 

Tough choice.....

[KenC]

jb,
I kind of knew that the economics were a changin, that's why I prefaced the time period (8 years ago).  But that doesn't replace the history already in place  thoough.  Having a sponsor or being a mistress for an older man is still much more acceptable in Russia than it is here.  Even though the marriages might be close in age, because it is (or was) at least semi-acceptable for young women to trade favors for financial gain with older men, the link of young women to older men has been established.

My wife, Lena always dated Russian guys older than her age.  Now I admit that they were 10 to 15 years older and not 25 like our difference, but she had other friends that went the route that I mentioned.  For example, one of her friends is an actress in Moscow and she lived with a much older Russian actor.  Another friend, also lives in Moscow and dated "age appropriate" Russian guys for a while.  Now she has an older Russian man, who happens to be married, that she spends time with.  We have all heard the stories where middle aged RW almost accept that their well to do husbands will take a younger lover as long as he is discrete.  My point is that even though the marriage ages indicate that Russians have similar views on age differences, their society has accepted that it is OK for much larger age differences under certain circumstances.  At least it is much more acceptable than it is here.  On top of that, you have the agencies encouraging RW to go for older guys.
KenC

[jb]

KenC,

I don't doubt your comments for a milliesecond, but I have to ask,,, how many guys here are going to date that class of woman?

You got lucky, do you think every other guy will be as lucky as you?  In other words, you are the exception that makes the rule.  For every 50'sh guy who goes after a younger Russian lady and succeeds, there will be a few thousand who fail.  While I applaud what you and Lena have built together, I still, at the same time, do not encourage others to try to emulate it.  Lightning does not strike twice in the same place often.

[Bruce]

For guys who like white (slavic) women it does seem that there are more physically desirable women in Russia and Ukraine than in most locales.  

I have come to the conclusion over the years that the majority of the single young (21 - 29 year old) women without children who are attractive (physically and emotionally) are taken by local guys.  

The ones who fall through the cracks are usually there for a reason.  For the most part, they could be too high maintenance for the average local man (these will quickly look for the bigger better deal (BBD) when here); they could be flakes ie. just impossible for the vast majority of men to live with / get along with; they could be really intellectual /  studious and in graduate school; they could be predatory prostitutes; could have severe family issues; or are on the rebound from men, whether divorcees or for whatever reason hurt and a bit gun-shy.  

So, you can get an on the rebound girl (recently divorced or through with a bad relationship) and hope she truly was in a miserable relationship / marriage in large part due to the guy, hope for a very serious graduate student or just get lucky if you visit over on a vacation with or without the help of an agency etc. to find a good girl.   If you live and or work in the FSU for a significant period of time you should be able to meet a pretty young single good girl who shares alot of common interests with you on your own naturally.

As stated above, when you get girls single without children into their 30's / 40's the above advice on single girls in their twenties applies and is multiplied by a significant factor negatively (for Western men seeking them).

The vast majority of single women in their twenties who are truly available, have children.  If a Western guy is happy to marry a women with a child he will arrive in the FSU and feel like a pig in sh&t.  If the guy is an above average provider these women will have a huge reason to seek these men out.  They know the importance of security, a security which still does not really exist (at least in Western terms) for the weaker sex and their child.

Now, the demographic numbers above only reinforce my theory that an older man stands a much greater chance of attracting and holding a girl 10 to 20 years his junior (with some exceptions into the 20 to dare I say 30 year age difference as well).  Why?  With so many younger women in the FSU marrying a guy relatively close to their age and divorcing in their twenties with and without children "growing up very quickly" during the time they spent married - emotional, financial and societal security become a predominant issue to them when they consider a partner for future marriage.   Most women are not as look obsessed as we men and after the shock of divorce realize that an older man really has what it takes to truly form the partnership they now know from experience to get them and their children or future children through life.  This man could be a Westerner, though most women have not really thought of this option.  

[jb]

Bruce,

Very nicely said,,, the AM living in a doublewide, thinking he has a leg up on the local guy should pay heed.  The gal who comes over thinking she will be so much better off with a WM will be very quickly disillusioned if her new partner is not super well off.  The Russian Woman Abroad forum is filled with such sorry stories.

[Russophile]

Jb,

You occasionally provide some good information to the forums, but when you start spouting your drivel about RW women over 30 being recycled prostitutes and AM over 50 being predators, then the value of your otherwise factual information is greatly compromised. Stick to what you know well and leave the personal attacks to more immature men on other websites.

A 'mature' man like me can offer a RW financial security and a lot of love.  That is what a lot of RW are looking for, regardless of their age.

Bruce,
great comment.  You have my respect

[KenC]

KenC,

I don't doubt your comments for a milliesecond, but I have to ask,,, how many guys here are going to date that class of woman?

You got lucky, do you think every other guy will be as lucky as you?  In other words, you are the exception that makes the rule.  For every 50'sh guy who goes after a younger Russian lady and succeeds, there will be a few thousand who fail.  While I applaud what you and Lena have built together, I still, at the same time, do not encourage others to try to emulate it.  Lightning does not strike twice in the same place often.

My comments were not intended to validate pushing the envelope of age differences as I have done, but to explain how larger age differences have become somewhat acceptable in the fsu countries in spite of the data on marriage ages.  To be honest, Lena was (and still is) quite the complete package: beauty, brains, class, high morals and a very nice person. She came from a very good family that was not economically challenged.  With all that going for her, she had her choice of options here and in Russia.  She "chose" me as much as I "chose" her.  Our relationship defies logic and we both consider ourselves lucky.
KenC

[SANDRO43]

Wild Orchid, this graph published by the Federal State Statistics
Service bears that out:  (y axis ~ age)

Vaughn, do you know the base year (age 0) for that graph ? I am curious about the 15 y.o. boom, and its sharp decline thereafter.

[jb]

KenC,

Your comments extend and validate what we have already ascertained, that you are indeed a lucky guy.  A lot of guys envy you beyond measure.  Not me, of course, I have my own beautiful Russian wife of 5 years.

Russ,

but when you start spouting your drivel about RW women over 30 being recycled prostitutes and AM over 50 being predators, then the value of your otherwise factual information is greatly compromised.

You may not like what I say, but I'm right more often than I'm wrong. I suggest that you visit with a few ex-pats who live there, then tell me that what I'm saying is drivel.  I submit that you are being delusional, wearing blinders and accepting things that are not there.

I still think you need an attitude adjustment.  You seem to be approaching this as a problem of economics and demographics, i.e., where can I get the most bang for the buck.  Couple this with the; "I'm in the position of solving at least one poor girls problem", and I just can't take you too seriously.  You seem to me to be on a lark.  Is this just a fun project for you?  Well,, here's another fun project for you:  Go to the MOB cataloges and memorize the faces and names of all the girls from St. Petersburg who list themselves as marriage candidates for foreign men.  Next, go to St Petersburg and hang out in the ex-pat bars and see how many of those same girls will go to bed with you for $50.00.  I think you will be amazed at the results of that simple survey.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've written too much so far to make me think you are on the level with the RWs you are chasing.  Then I add in the fact that it's been 5 years since you've brought over a K-1 girl, and I think you don't know too much about today's Russia.  The USD doesn't impress like it once did.
 
Be careful out there.