RW Demographics

[catzenmouse]

To the members of the forum:

If I have inadvertently insulted or offended any of you I apologize.  This was not my intention.

All information about myself I have written on the forum is factual.

All experiences I have had with RW in the FSU described on the forum are truthful and factual.

All opinions I have expressed on the forum are truthful and factual based on my experiences with RW in the FSU.

While this may (or may not) have been your intention the fact is that you misrepresented youself and your intentions to the forum. When you "come clean" on this issue, which in itself is a point in your favor, it does raise the issue of this possibly being another ploy. Since the doubt has already been placed in the minds of many of the members here what you say from now on regarding your experience will be tainted.

The content of the questions I have asked on the forum is controversial by its very nature.  I don’t feel that I created any controversy that was not already present.

These questions have in almost all cases been beat to death in the past. Any of these questions/opinions that you were trying to show to your lurker friends could have easily been answered with a few searches on your (or their) part.

If there was any deception it was in that the questions I posed to the forum were posed through me by others even though the answers to these questions were resolved in my own mind long ago.

This part still sticks with me. If someone is so timid that they cannot post a question in a forum like this how can they ever possibly expect to make a future with a FSU woman?

 Will they be too timid to post their profile on a FSU dating site? Make a phone call to the lady? Go to the Post Office to get a passport? Make a flight or hotel reservation? Get on the plane and go? Be able to speak or even look at the girl? Contact the government to ask questions about the multitude of forms to be filled out? Asking questions here is the easiest part of the whole search/find/marry process. C'mon now, let's get real here.

I honestly and openly revealed my position on these matters in my last post.

I sincerely respect the opinions of others on the forum even though their experiences may be different than mine.

 These are appreciated if they are sincere. With time we will see I guess.

You may judge me as you wish and I will abide by your decision.

Russophile

 I'll leave that to the membership at large.

Ken

[ConnerVT]

It comes down to this classic example:

Were you lying to us before, or are you lying to us now when you tell us you were lying before?  And is your next answer a lie also?

It does not matter if you like or dislike Jb, KenC, Andrew.  One thing is certain with them -- they will give you their honest opinion.  Agree or disagree with their words, you must respect them for this.

Those who misrepresent themselves in life earn neither trust or respect.

[Bruce]

Ken, could not have expressed your clearly dissected last post concerning Russophile's deceit and apology better myself.  I echo your thoughts.  

Ken C - Very strong response to Andrewfin which in my opinion is a little bit over the top.

My opinion of Andrewfin's post in question as well as the majority of his posts is that he is such a strong economic thinker that he inevitably brings economics into virtually every aspect of his life.  Thus, he naturally generalizes about male / female relations in economic terms.  I try to overcome my natural tendency to view things from a biological perspective.   In other words, all of us have some bias based on education as well as experience.  

As far as agencies, there are good and bad ones ( unfortunately the majority).  Within the good agencies are some bad girls.  I tend to think that the majority of girls in the quality agencies of a particular city have good intentions when they first join an agency.  How their lives unfold after they join the agency may alter their perceptions of foreign men and if they should "trust" their chances of ever really meeting a quality man through such an agency.  Would I call all girls who frequent an agency bad - not a chance.   Many of them are trying any method available to meet a quality man.  The 25 year old pretty girl without children and good character will be gobbled up very quickly by foreign men if that is her desire - and the best girls get quickly taken from the quality agencies.  The trick for the legitimate agencies is replacing the best women as they move on in life.  

For instance, I sincerely believe Tver has many excellent agencies run by well intentioned individuals.  As far as I am concerned there are more pretty girls outside the agencies than in the agencies.  Why does this occur?  Only a distinct minority of girls join an agency.  They join for different reasons.  Only a minority are the "pick of the litter"  kind of girls with the quality high character, strength and fortitude we know it takes to thirve in first a cross cultural relationship and then marriage to a Westerner.  Only a minority of the agency girls are taken by foreign men.  So, as far as I am concerned, any man who married a girl he met through an agency probably got a "pick of the litter" kind of girl.  

During my last trip to Tver, we took a local train three stops to a short walk through the forest to a community of high end dachas starting at 30K.  I met an older experienced University English teacher who was one of my wife's teachers growing up etc.  We talked about my favorite subject when I visit Russia.............Russia.  One of the comments she made concerning Russian women which sticks in my mind is that "Russia is losing a generation of its prettiest and most talented women and that the best women go to the USA."  

The bottom line is when one looks at the pictures of Westerners who have married and stayed married to FSU women - whether they have or have not met with the help of an agency.   I see love, admiration and adoration in those pictures, which is the bottom line concerning matters of the heart.  Photos of the children are even more magical.  

Andrewfin, for your own health, please stop looking at matters of the heart through economic terms.  Go out, have a good time, stay away from bar girls and you'll meet a quality girl.  If it suits you, travel to Tver.  Its close to Estonia and try meeting girls from the quality agencies.  I honestly believe you can find a 7 plus on the looks scale with a 9 plus on the character scale if you take your time and choose wisely.  Use of a quality agency besides the treks and travails of your life only will increase your odds of meeting the future Mrs. Andrewfin.   By the way, I'd sure like to see you married because I know it will knock out some of the cynicism and downright negativity we sometimes see in your posts.  Sure you are a realist, but please wake up and enjoy the coffee.  The FSU is not and will not be a first rate economic power so soon (once you get outside of Moscow, St. Pete anyway) - so you have the economic argument in your favor as well.

[KenC]

Ken C - Very strong response to Andrewfin which in my opinion is a little bit over the top.

Bruce,
You have to know by now that I have the highest respect for your opinions, but how can you NOT be offended by Andrew's "reject" remark directed at you and your wife? Or his inference that your wife's decision to be with you is no more than a money exchange?  Or that she was sold to you by the agency?  I am surprised that you are not as outraged by his comments as I am.  I cannot fathom a world where my wife would be considered with such labels as Andrew chooses to use.  (BTW, Andrew's affinity for working girls is well documented in many archives.)
KenC

[Bruce]

Ken C - I agree his comments could be taken as offensive.  I first glossed over his comments as just being Andrew and I did of course, became more offended, just like everyone else when you and others rightly took him to task for it. His comments point more to the root of his problems than anything else.   I just do not believe he really understood and mean't the worst of his comments.  Unfortunately, he probably will respond that he means every word of it  - which again will reflect on an issue I believe he should resolve. 

I hope he has changed his ways and no longer spends time with working girls. In any event, thanks for taking me to task for glossing over the comments.  I just always look at Andrewfin as a friend and have come to expect a jab or two on occasion.

[KenC]

Bruce,
There is much valuable information that Andrew can share here, no doubt.  I just jab back when he says something as offensive as he did this time.
KenC

[Bruce]

Ken C - I reread my immediate post above yours and modified it to make it more understandable (I hope).  I think you got the gist of it the first go around.  As always, I appreciate you calling a spade a spade and separating out the message for people who just do not get it (sometimes me). 

[BC]

I've said it before.. Andrew's selection of words can indeed be provocative depending on how the reader interprets his words.  I do think though that he enjoys the varying reactions.  His use of words like 'reject' may sound harsh and offend some but it really depends on how you read it.

I have noted that his opin over the years has steadily migrated towards the absolute. 

Maybe during his long term stay in Estonia he is slowly acquiring a different, more harsh, less PC mindset.. IMHE almost RW like, maybe a bit more trollish.. who knows.. it's sometimes hard to differentiate.  (Wifey will kill me if she reads this)

I can say with confidence though that my vocabulary (and use of dictionary.com) has increased dramatically.  Without mentioning names I have seen vast differences in many posters' style and grammar slowly evolve, at least partially due to Andrews influence.

In a distinct way he has provoked a positive linguistic impact over the years.

He is not alone though.. IMHO Dan really excells when it comes to use of language.. If his fingers were as good as his language skills he would be the first proctologist in history that thrives on repeat business.. 

When Andrew speaks I just add salt liberally even though it sometimes may still burn a bit.

[BillyB]

Andrew, there are many hot girls in agencies, many with good attitudes. Can you tell me why RM reject them? I thought these women rejected RM since they want something better. Of course some RW and WM have little choices in life and are rejected by their peers as you say but it's factual that not all people searching overseas have been rejected. Certainly women don't register at an agency to settle for less than what they can get at home. There is no question in my mind that RW overwhelmingly reject WM too and most RW don't settle for the first man to visit. I'd say thousands of men fly to the FSU everyday seeking love/sex. Maybe over a million WM visit the FSU every year for these purposes. But how many actual fiancee/bride visas are being issued in America and Europe? Maybe in the tens of thousands.

I think it's far fetched to say WM searching for RW and RW searching for WM are rejected by their peers. We don't walk the same road in life. Regardless what happens in someone elses relationship, foreign or domestic, I know I made a smart decision and certainly my peers will reject envy me.

[nzboy]

We need Andrew fin to challenge our thinking .I guess I tend to overstate to get a reaction too! I was was careful in my post and not far off mark the campus I attended was a language university with a roll of 10,000 and have from good authority that the ratio is 75% to 25% females to males .I have seen it with my own eyes with the new enrollments .That being said down the road there is an agricultural uni with opposite split .Talking to a single lady who is a lecturer there she said alcohol is the problem in Minsk with men .They desert wives to drink with their  mates .Many young guys lose all interest in women to the bottle .An experienced monger that I roomed with  said He has made love to 500 different women and of course is also married as well to fsu girl  with a child He can generally go to a club at night and take a girl to flat .He says they all complain how little interest local men have in sex compared to foreign men .They think local men are useless in bed because of the effects of alcohol .By the time these guys get to the apartment they are to drunk to deliver .I dont see in the west a shortage of available men due to alcohol .I watched a russian comedy programme ( their humour is like NZERS) the skit was set in 2nd world war the germans were charging them but the russians guns either jammed or they had no ammunition So they turned their ciggarettes and vodka into molotove cocktails with devastating results because they had no shortage of these .The russians I were with were splitting them selves with laughter because is was most probably true

[Vaughn]

BillyB, KenC, NZBoy, BC and especially Bruce - thanks to all of you for
finding the words I could not in my fit of anger. I'll be the first to admit
I've enjoyed Andrewfin's presence here - he stimulates thought and
presents a poignantly stark point of view - a portion of which, is
frighteningly realistic. How much credence one lends to that "portion"
is a personal decision.

Andrew, I am saddened that you're caught up in the street-girl rut.
 I do, however, appreciate that you at least qualified your remarks as you
pulled the ripcord by calling my wife and the rest "exceptions." It
took me the greater part of my life to meet such a fine woman as
I have - our commitment to one another knows few boundaries, and
so I get rather testy when derogatory terms begin to spew forth. Perhaps
one day you'll see clear to view the world differently. Is there anybody
home in this house made of stone?

[Manny]

I have read Andrew comments often elsewhere.

Indeed I and others argued with him about his now famous "dirty barrel" theories in the past then after some education, I changed my opinion.

However, despite being engaged myself and my lady now with me in England, I would agree that after reading peoples experiences on many boards that Andrew is largely correct.

The whole RW business is indeed a dirty barrel, our ladies are to some extent selling themselves by placing themselves on foreign facing websites, they do seek an alternative life and we (WM) are the key to that.

Now that does not mean that all RW are GCH, nor does it mean that they do not occasionally love us. It does however mean that sometimes they lower their standards (be it fat/old/ugly guys) to achieve a future for themselves with a "nice" guy. The girls that end up hitting within their own education/status/age group may do well. Some come to accept/like a big age difference and some of these people enjoy happy marriages. I do not seek to slate the older chap who has secured a happy marriage with a much younger RW, but even these men themselves would not recommend it to a newbie or to the poor and/or inexperienced.

Amongst the cross section of Russian society (which is different to ours) that make up the RW's seeking foreign men via agencies, there are many from the bottom of society. If you ask most RW the ideal situation it would be a RM 99% of the time. A foreign man is 2nd best, a compromise, an acceptable and hopefully agreeable way to a better life!

Now consider this before all you older yanks howl........ If you had decided life in Norway was good for you but lacked a method of getting there, would you seek a Norwegian woman who could secure it? Of course you would! Would you marry an agreeable Norwegian girl? Yes of course you would. She held the key to your future intent.

Would you love her? Maybe. Would you have married her for the right reasons? Maybe not by your own culture but maybe by hers! Would your marriage work out? Maybe if you was not an ass hole and made her generally happy. Would you be a GCH? Or would you be a guy who sought out a woman in a place where you wanted to be who wanted to be happy with that person if at all possible?

Andrew may be unpopular with some of his views but he sees the real picture. Not sure? Andrew lives in Estonia, FSU now Europe. The streets are bristling with drop dead gorgeous girls. Find some on a dating site! You will find only a handful! But these are FSU girls? Why aren't they in an abundance like Ukrainian girls? Have a think guys!

Yes it is largely maximum economic exploitation, don't fool yourselves, on the other hand you may strike lucky with a girl who is within your batting distance, who may fall in love with you and will welcome a change of country. But when you wade through all the pro-daters out there, the GCH, the hookers, the men posing as women, you are left with few, when you weed out the "dirty barrel" girls you are left with a fraction of the original.

Some hit lucky 1st time, some make 30 trips (naming no names) and come home with nothing. Some defy all odds and import a happy girl 30 years their junior and they are happy everafter.

In the pursuit of RW we are indeed poking our hand into a very dirty barrel, it may get bit off, but then again we may just strike gold if we are very lucky and well prepared.

[KenC]

Manchester,
There are more than a few erroneous assumptions in you post.  First of all you assume that RW who marry AM are dying to come here.  That simply isn't true in all cases.  I know that Lena would have preferred for us to live in Russia.  To be honest, I know quite a few couples where that is the case too. Moving to America or G.B is not necessarily the motivation behind many of these marriages.  In fact, in most cases the moving part is a major negative. In my personal case, moving was the price Lena had to pay in order to be with me.

Your next faulty assumption is that RW some how lower their standards (marry fat/old/ugly men) to achieve a better future for themselves.  Now maybe I fit your description and maybe I don't, but I can tell you that Lena dumped an International male photo model that was dripping in money.  His Moscow address would have fit perfectly into her plans of working for a research institute in Moscow that had been courting her to join their team of researchers.  Lena happens to be the most principled person I have ever met and I know that she would only marry for love.  Period.  In this case the "best man" won: me.

The assumption that non Russian men are inferior in the eyes of RW is also wrong.  Many RW know the drill when it comes to a future life married to a RM.  Not all of the concerns are financial either.  In fact I think the financial future challenges are the least of their concerns.  They are more concerned with faithfulness, abuse and alcoholism.  When Lena arrived here she maintained two lines of thought: All men cheat and No beat, no love.  Really think about how screwed up a society has to be to think those two things are true.  After 8 years together, she now knows that my faithfulness is beyond reproach and that I would never lay a hand on her.  Of course she still doesn't quite understand why I would prefer a diet Coke instead of a shot of vodka, but she has accepted that too.

Your insinuation that joining an agency some how lowers a woman's stature is also puzzling to me.  What is the difference between a RW listing a profile with an agency and an AW listing herself on a dating site?  Dating agencies are one of the fastest growing industries in America.  Is it some how less respectful for a RW to seek marriage as the end goal?  If you don't think the single AW are looking for marriage too, you are sorely mistaken.

The idea that my wife came from some "dirty barrel" is as offensive as anything Andrew said in his posts.  Maybe that is how you view your finance, but my wife is as far from any friggen "dirty barrel" as one can get.  I have met so many educated, cultured, classy and intelligent RW that I in no way think of them as a step down from AW, but a major step up.  I resent your insinuation greatly.

Finally your thought process that Andrew has some kind of "leg up" on our knowledge of RW because he lives in Estonia is also misplaced.  Andrew may be an expert on his town and community but totally ignorant of the many other areas and class levels beyond his experiences.  And of course to judge our wives by the level of women he socializes with is like the difference between night and day.
KenC

[PeeWee]

Manchester,

Your insinuation that joining an agency some how lowers a woman's stature is also puzzling to me.  What is the difference between a RW listing a profile with an agency and an AW listing herself on a dating site?  Dating agencies are one of the fastest growing industries in America.  Is it some how less respectful for a RW to seek marriage as the end goal?  If you don't think the single AW are looking for marriage too, you are sorely mistaken.

KenC

I've said this before in a different way. How is an Rw who posts her profile with an agency any different than an AW who posts her profile on eHaromony or Match.com? The purpose, if an honest one, is the same to me. If you subscribe to what I am suggesting and if you are to believe in what Andrew is suggesting then would not all of those million AW, and men, who have posted a profile on eHarmony, et al, then not of the same ilk as those RW who are doing likewise?  In the words of Jessie Jackson, "I think not."

Peevee

[Jooky]

Demographics again. 

Men desperately seeking some justification for why they seek a Russian bride. Just be honest. You came across a webpage chock full of hot honeys that looked like this: http://www.anastasiaweb.com/top1000.htm?PHPSESSID=dfe87ab14f33153ce328522e97f0eafd and thought holey moley! I need to get me (at least) one of them!

If demographics was a real reason, rather than an excuse to tell your friends, think about this:

Is it wise or appealing to seek a bride when your advantage is that given the choice between you and a lifetime of loneliness, you are a slightly better choice?

There are 100 women and 95 men in a room. The men must each chose a woman to marry. 5 women will remain unmarried. Which will these be? The most attractive and desirable?

Or the rejects at the bottom of the dirty barrel?

Are we, rejecting and rejected by our peers seeking those across the world also rejecting and rejected by their peers?

What are the confines of our peer group anyways? Educational level? Career? Appearance? Interests? Physical location? Race? Nationality? Attitude? Are we, as misfits, appropriate peers for the misfits we meet on the far side of the sea? Or should we confine ourselves to the contents of our local disco bar?

Are these reject women lowering their standards? What should standards be based upon? Age and physical appearance? Hell, I'm sure we would all love to find a mate who is exceptionally attractive, intelligent, wealthy, congenial and exciting even though we might possess from zero to none of the qualities listed above. We can't have it all and we don't deserve it all, so we humans have different standards.

Some women seek handsome muscular men regardless of intelligence or personality. Some seek ambitious and powerful men regardless of their looks. Some seek wealthy men. Some seek excitement. Some don't even know what they seek.

Are women deliberately lowering their standards by placing an online ad? Of course not. They are hoping for the best as we all do. Yes, many people end up settling with someone they don't truly love for the sake of avoiding loneliness. That's life and it happens everywhere.

The key is to be realistic and find someone who matches you. Make sure you fit their standards and make sure they fit yours. If you've made a real connection you will know it. Don't be a dummy. If you do find that perfect fit, it won't matter where you found it.

So, there are only a handful of Estonian women on dating sites... hey you're right! On bride.ru there are only 510 Estonian women next to 40652 Russian women! But wait a minute... in the 15-65 year age group there are only 469,000 Estonian women to Russia's 52,679,000. Per capita there are more Estonian women listed. What the ...? Isn't Estonia a proud member of the European community. And wait... there are women from America, France, Norway and even the United Kingdom listed on this same site.

How the heck am I going to use the power of economic exploitation in Norway?  ???

Whoa, stop, my brains hurts! What a load of bull. No need to intellectualize something that is far more simple.

Reality is, as Ken said above:

It is human nature for a man to seek youth and beauty for a mate, just as it is human nature for a woman to seek out the best provider

Reality is we all want to end up with someone compatible who we enjoy, admire and find attractive, and here's the tricky part, who feels the same way about us.

Reality is that the internet opens an avenue of communication between people over all the world. It gives us options.

Reality is that there are all kinds of women in the Former Soviet Union and all kinds of reasons they might end up placing an ad on the internet. Many do so without serious thought or intentions. Few consciously reject on the men of their own country as a whole. Most do not end up marrying or even meeting a foreigner at all.

Sure, the bridal industry is a profitable business. It attracts sharks. It attracts gold diggers. It attracts women looking for an escape. These are often the most active women but we all possess the faculties to avoid them. Many of us choose not to.

Is the pool of Russian women on the net a dirty barrel? Much less so than a local bar. But then again, one man's trash is another man's treasure and as long as you end up happy who cares where you found that happiness? Not me. 

[andrewfi]

Vaughn. you seem to have some kind of image of women that is somehow disconnected from reality. You seem to project upon my relationships fantasiesthat somehow justify yours.

Not that it is relevant but most of the people I know are normal folk. The women who sell themselves to foreign guys are not. And yes, they DO sell themselves and you buy them. Not a lot wrong with that, but refusing to understand pr see what you are doing/have done is hardly a recipe for long term success and understanding. BTW, Ken, you will soon have reached the median term of a marriage in the US. Well done.

Jooky, Ken we know that people use dating sites. Tell us something new. There is, as you know, a large difference between HRB, Lifetime Partners, AFA, First dream et al and Bride.Ru which makes the argument specious.
Jooky, then you continue down a road that we have gone down before. I agree that the points you make are true - indeed, I have made them many times before myself, but the issue is that guys are unable to understand what they are doing and do not understand the degree of the differences becasue they do not want to admit to the first.

In all honesty, it is easier to deal with a guy who is honest with himself and says -'yeah, I can get a younger hotter woman in Russia', or more likely - 'yeah, I can get a woman in Russia' becasue that guy KNOWS what he is really doing and thus it is possible to discuss matters of degree. That is why, I think, in the end, Manchester and I ended up agreeing. Only when you are able to understand ones own motivations can one begin to understand those of others.

Ken, would your wfe have preferred to live with you in Russia.... DUH! Do you think what you write about? She marries a relatively well-off guy from the US. She has a choice, live with him in the US, or Russia. The wealth/lifestyle equivalent in either case. Which would be her choice. Hardly a surprise eh?
Some DO want to change countries, we have words to describe them, but don't for one tiny, teeny second think that if you were a Tver living middle-aged/old guy of average income that you would have gotten anywhere close to her fine young ass. She is with you for 'external' reasons and you know it. If you had those external attributes in Russia she might have been with you there but without them you would be watching TV and going to the kiosk for grog like all the other lonely old guys.

Ken, the dirty barrel to which Manchester refers is the agency business. Not to women in general - if you honestly believe that women who voluntarily walk into an agency, have their photos taken, write, or allow to be written, a profile that is designed to entice middle aged saddos to pay money to meet them is a normal representative of womanhood then it is YOU who is holding women, in general, in low esteem. The women who do this do so knowingly, knowing what they expect, in broad tems at least - just look at the advertising used to attract women to foreign facing marriage agencies. As I have said before, a woman who is so dim as to sign up for a foreign facing agency without the realisation that a succesful outcome is marriage to a relatively wealthy foreign guy is simply too dim a bulb to be worthy of consideration by a 'normal' man. You know that the number of women who ARE willing to do this is tiny and, as Russia becomes better off as a whole, becoming fewer. Ask an agency owner, they'll tell you, fewer women and more competition for them.

vaughn, I am glad that a woman such as you have makes you happy. I trust she is as happy with her end of the deal. Whilst I urge people to look at a situation from an objective perspective, I also know that without a little fantasy life can become a lot harder and more dull.

Bruce, Ken and some others, if you live as a foreigner, in this part of the world, it is pretty hard to avoid contact with hookers. If you visit for a short time likewise. The only difference is whether you KNOW what you are dealing with, or not. It is probably true to say that most do not.
But, of course that is not germane to the discussion. But I realise that deflection by insult is helpful to some in coming to terms with their own situation.

BC, is my position hardening, not really, but am I less willing to sugar coat? Probably. But also, as I see it, the situation is changing. Again, it is economics.
In 1998/9 Russia was on its knees, people were sellingtheir last possesions to buy food. For a daughter to find economic security by marrying a foreigner seemed a reasonable choice, after all Russia had been, since the mid-80s, seeing the end of the Soviet dream and mums and dads did not have a way of seeing a better future for their daughters. Today though things are much improved and for a hard working and decently bright kid there is a different future. So, when one sees an attractive young woman offering herself to the foreign guy with the best package, one has to ask 'why?' Six or seven years ago we knew why. When we see an older woam offering herself, we ask, does she have kids?  A positive answer helps because we know that the remarriage situation for a woman in her 30's is parlous anywhere, but there is a slim chance that sme old foreign guy will take her on. Same question of a woman with no kids and jb's insight is right on the money.
But, as is so often the case, the intel upon which guys rely is sadly out of date - most are still operating on half a decade old intel. This is kinda like the tourist business in Tallinn, every week we get hundreds of guys over from the UK who came because they were told stuff that while true five years ago is not true, in anything like the same degree today. But these visitors will themselves help to propagate the myth. Americans chasing Russian women -same, same.
So, of course the message changes, but for guys who are relying upon outdated intelligence and analysis, they see what I have to say as being very jarring indeed.

[BC]

Demographics again. 

Men desperately seeking some justification for why they seek a Russian bride. Just be honest. You came across a webpage chock full of hot honeys that looked like this: http://www.anastasiaweb.com/top1000.htm?PHPSESSID=dfe87ab14f33153ce328522e97f0eafd and thought holey moley! I need to get me (at least) one of them!

Ahh.. isn't truth refreshing...

But in this thread it was not just about why they seek a Russian bride but the perceived level of preparedness necessary to go about the task ahead in a reasonable fashion.  Russophile in his ficticious? role was obviously not prepared and seemed to be seeking justification to himself that he had what it takes to succeed.  Maybe trying to find enough support so that he would feel better about going to the bank and refinancing his home. 

Those that have to revert to over-rationalization to form a 'reasonable risk' scenario on the basis of some pictures and agency hype are surely fools *almost* sure to fail. This applies on both sides of the waters.

As with any online dating service or agency there seems to be quite a bit of chaff to sort through.. Although I never went this route and have no experience with agencies and online services I get the feeling that chances are as great or even greater doing without.

[nzboy]

I think some of you guys are showing your age .When my exgirl friend found her husband ( a very decent guy ) on internet with a distance of 500 km between them I sat up and took note . Times have moved on ,distance is no longer a barrier so i can afford and have been fishing in a more productive pool without question .Here in NZ a guy my age would need a million bucks to fish for attractive women here .The competition is too great so just move pools, the rules are the same, the risks are similar, so why not .We can spend all day discussing the virtues of a good wine buts its little use if we cant taste . In Minsk you can taste. I could go out any day and have women eyeing me every where. That doesnt happen in NZ anymore In Minsk a complete stranger wants to give me her phone no .That doesnt happen in NZ .Look fishing in a pond where there are fish is a whole lot better than going through all the motions in a pond with no fish .So today with tech I can date anyone in the world just so happens the fish in fsu are white similar culture and attractive .My 2 best friends have married south american girls so I am just going to where there are accessable girls plain and simple

[BC]

Nzboy,

http://www.findsomeone.co.nz/

found 2300 with a few clicks here..  some real cuties too.

In the end, there is no 'easier, softer way' looking afar..

[KenC]

Andrew,
For the life of me, I cannot see a huge difference between a RW listing herself with a "marriage" agency in Russia to an AW listing herself with a "dating" agency in America.  It is just a matter of semantics really.  The goals are virtually the same.  I will admit that this matter of semantics inferring that the RW listed are easily to marry does more harm than good to the AM doing the looking.  That factor and of course our immigration system are the root causes of too many couples rushing into matrimony before they have really established a decent relationship.  I have long advocated that AM use the "marriage" agencies as nothing more than for introduction purposes, but many do have their thinking set in a different way.  Now if you want to get into the decency of the particular marriage agencies, that is a matter for another thread.  Here we are addressing the women and the whys and wherefores of them making their choices.  I repeat that there is little difference between a RW joining a marriage agency and an AW joining a dating agency except the title of the organization.

Speaking of choices, of course a man's "external" factors are important part of the selection process, just as a woman's external factors are.  Is that supposed to be some enlightened factoid?  Throughout the history of the world it is common knowledge that the best men get the best women.  I believe it is called the natural selection process.  I also believe that I deserved one hell of a woman for all that I had to offer.  And I found one.  She just happened to live in Russia.  Nothing you write will ever shake that thought process.
KenC

[BC]

KenC,

I'll be the first to admit you are one lucky guy.  You and your wife's external attributes fit together quite nicely like a puzzle and seems to have formed a strong bond that has held for a good period of time, even though classiifying your efforts as 'a piece of cake' would be an understatement.

In the end I think though that you and Andrew can likely come quite close to agreeing if you take a hard look at the remaining portion of men and women seeking their partners via the MOB route.

Surely your experience is not the norm.. or?

[KenC]

BC,
Maybe you are right, but for a very different reason than how Andrew relates things.  The RW I have met here in the States are generally of very high caliber;  educated, classy and of high morals.  I have never viewed them as the "rejects" that Andrew alludes to.  I also understand tha most things in life fall into the "80/20" rule.  Maybe even "90/10" to be honest.  Meaning that only the top 10% of RW listed in an agency are worthwhile, just as maybe only the top 10% of the men chasing them are worthwhile too.  The same numbers could be used for the AW listed on dating sites.  So what's new?  That is life.  It doesn't make the good RW listed in marriage agencies "rejects."

I believe it has been said that luck is when preparation meets opportunity.  Many of the successful married men here are in the very same boat as me, you included.  We weren't serious MOB chasers, nor were we desperate to fill a wife vacancy.  We happened across a RW that struck our fancy and a relationship ensued.  That relationship turned to love and eventually ended in matrimony.  I see nothing unnatural or despicable in that process what so ever and I resent those that try to paint it that way.

There are others here that went through the agencies in search of a good woman and found one.  Bruce comes to mind.  I know he visited many different women from many different places in the fsu until he found the right woman for him.  It is even kind of funny in his case because he found a woman on his second trip to the same city and the same agency (LTP/Tver).  After his first trip there he told everyone on the forum that Tver was fished out and that there were no more good women left!  Well, did he get "lucky" the second time around?  Or was he just persistant enough to hold out for the right woman?  A little of both as I see it.  We can find a great woman buying groceries at the local market or on a website from the other side of the world.  It doesn't make a difference how you found your perfect mate, just that you did.
KenC

[Vaughn]

BC,

 Not to detract one iota from Ken's outstanding quality of marriage example,
I do personally know dozens of couples from various parts of the USA who seem to be enjoying fulfilling wedlock (and in a few cases, beautiful children) To be fair, I've also witnessed a few horror stories here and there. I submit that Andrew's lump sum theories are confounded by many examples of the former. Admittedly, the natural route, ie: spending extended time in the FSU and a longer-term courtship would have been the preferable way for my wife and me. Fact was, it wasn't possible. I wish more MOB couples would exercise patience, discernment, and keeping expectations reasonable - unfortunately, a great number of them do not, but the number of couples
who've found a mutually happy situation is not as minuscule as implied.

[nzboy]

I still have a profile on findsomeone only interest ive had is old fat divorced women .Basically nz women only marry younger men or a few years older .They do not want to relocate to my part of country is part of the problem .I guess if I search using the same parameters as I have in minsk there is only about 10 girls in NZ and maybe a hundred in Minsk in dating agency .NZ girls are looking for money as well and so because I am only worth 250k this is a disappointment to these girls

[Bruce]

Ken, now you are dragging me into this again............... .

I was and still am a very discerning individual.  I had no problem attracting quality women here.  I was presentable (still am) had time, enough dollars, was bitten by the FSU bug and just knew I could find a more beautiful, just as intelligent, younger etc. women who met my criteria in Russia (I liked Ukraine but just thoroughly enjoyed Russia, especially in the Winter) than I could find here.  At one point despite becomming fairly proficient in the Russian language I knew I had to find a girl fluent in English, which made it harder for me to find the wife of my dreams, though I also knew I probably would have to find a girl who spoke some English and establish a relationship from there.  I cast a wide net, threw alot of darts, tried alot of things and took my time during my searching phase. I had time during the tail end of a business trip to the Novosibirsk region and decided what the heck, I'll go back to Tver on the way home.  I had to fly to Moscow anyway.

What I learned over time is that Tver was not fished out of women but that agencies had a hard time recruiting the women I was looking for.  I lucked out in that a fresh agency opened in Tver.  This agency had a very talented and imaginative owner.  He knew he needed as many English speaking girls as he could find.  So, he held an open tryout / party for translators whcih included a photo and enough information about them on the application form that he could put a skeletan profile for these girls on his website.  According to my wife he drew in about 100 English speaking girls who wanted some extra / part time employment.  Since Tver State University has a large English language department there are many undergraduate and graduate English students always happy to work on their English skills there.  Anyway, this shrewd upstart agency owner put them on his website without the knowledge of the girls.  He used what he could glean from their employment application to put information about them on his website besides their photo.  Not suprisingly, none  of the girls were employed by his agency, but any girl who looked good enough and was photographed was listed on his website.

I looked at the website and saw alot of beautiful girls who spoke English.  Heck, the agency had alot of beautiful girls in Tver and seemed to me fresh and exciting.  I said what the heck, I'll call the guy.  He sounded ok, could talk the talk and would cut me a decent deal.  I asked around and people said his agency was "legitimate" and guys were actually meeting through his agency.  I picked 25 girls and wrote them an introduction letter saying I would be in Tver from such and such date about a month before I would get there and would be glad to meet them.  Within a week or two a large number of the girls wrote me back all sorts of different letters.  About five said they had no interest in me, but 20 wanted to meet me.  Now here is the kicker..............I did meet almost every girl I wrote and some others after going to the agency and going through their books for additional girls etc.  The problem was, the majority of the girls never wrote me.  The agency fabricated all the letters to me.................and they had me thoroughly fooled (and I thought I knew every trick in the book by then).  Somehow this agency owner picked out the girl who would eventually turn out to be my wife for the first girl I would visit through that agency, and I met alot of really physically gorgeous girls during that trip.  I was literally spinning with how many beautiful and eligible girls were honestly interested in me.  I hate to say it but I rejected so many great girls.  I met them once or twice for dates, they were definitely physically gorgeous but did not measure up to what I wanted / had the spark etc.  

Anyway, how did this agency owner get my eventual wife to meet me?  My wife to be had never written that she was interested in me.  I learned on my second visit that the one letter she "wrote" me expressing her interest in me was pure fabrication.  Still, this agency owner called her and somehow got her to come in to their office to meet me.  Luckily for me, she was really interested in me the moment we met and was calling for me the next day.  I would subsequently meet alot of other gorgeous women interested in me.  I knew my wife to be was a keeper from the moment I met her, but I had known many a pretty young girl to flake out so I met alot and dated.  My criteria was what most men would say is insane..... but I had my standards.  My wife quickly separated herself from any others in the first month after my trip through correspondence.  Two or so months later I returned to date her for another couple of weeks, followed by a return a few months after that followed by a return a few months after that until I brought her over here on September 11, 2004 and were married in early November 2004.  So far so good.  Chemistry, luck, timing and the ability to discern are amazing things when you put the package together.  

That agency in Tver still has alot of traffic though the then "shrewd" agency owner had become so despicable in his operation that his business practices are now such that I could not recommend them to others.  The key for a guy in the search mode is to just go over and good things will happen.  I was lucky that the owner was trying to do things relatively legitimatley ie. he had girls by hook or crook but had to do something to get the guys over his first year of operation.  Now he not only writes phony letters, but has alot of "model" girls posing on his website, has girls or should I say pictures of girls from all over the former FSU on his website and hosts tours to Tver for one of the former big three agencies.  Greed has overwhelmed him.  The funny thing is that he is a personable nice guy who I believe really tries to help people meet in Tver.  I guess he feels that since there are so many young beautiful eligible girls in Tver if a guy writes a ghost so what............if he is any decent he'll have five other good girls seriously interested in him if he chooses wisely.................so what the heck....................and thats part of the reason why I always advocate that guys go to target rich environments.  In my experience Tver in Russia and Kharkov in Ukraine were the two best places to search for the single guys out there.

I hope you all had a good laugh...................and am not sure what the pundits will say this time, but I've said it before and perhaps on this thread there is enough traffic that it will actually help a newbie or three  .