RW Demographics

[Manny]

I was and still am a very discerning individual.  I had no problem attracting quality women here.  I was presentable (still am) had time, enough dollars, was bitten by the FSU bug and just knew I could find a more beautiful, just as intelligent, younger etc. women who met my criteria in Russia (I liked Ukraine but just thoroughly enjoyed Russia, especially in the Winter) than I could find here.  At one point despite becoming fairly proficient in the Russian language I knew I had to find a girl fluent in English, which made it harder for me to find the wife of my dreams, though I also knew I probably would have to find a girl who spoke some English and establish a relationship from there.  I cast a wide net, threw a lot of darts, tried a lot of things and took my time during my searching phase.

That almost mirrors my own experience and opinion. Well written!

However..........

Contrary to KenC's assertions above, I am not critical of his marriage and most especially not his wife! I have in the past made him an example as to age difference but the man is still married, and for that we must have respect. We must by default assume he is happy and his wife is too. But I assert still that our Ken and his ilk (which are few in number) are the exception rather than the norm. In other posts and PM's they agree this themselves. I will quote if necessary.

Ken - I shall not go into your somewhat paranoid retort above point by point as Andrewfin covered most of it shortly after. However we have exchanged PM's about this subject and I did come away with a differing and positive opinion of your good self - dont kill it! My comments were not aimed at you. My comments were largely general. If you choose to make them personal then please take it to PM as I know Dan does not want p!$$ing matches on here. PS - There is no need to post everything bold! We can read it without! 

Andrews terminology can be difficult to comprehend and absorb, especially if you are US born and bred and are afflicted with an overly PC modus operandi. However, I shall reiterate for those who found it hard to grasp and do not read up...........

I first got inside the FSU 8 years ago, I have been to many FSU countries which probably exceeds most of the readership here. I have been to Russia (proper) many times and I have also been through the Baltic's (including by road) including Estonia many times. In fact I have a holiday homes in Estonia and Russia. I am not a newbie! I saw Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Russia not so far down the road from Independence. I see also these countries today. I see the changes.

If older/fatter/uglier (or all/any of those) men from Western countries really believe that they are serious beefsteak to FSU girls they are sadly mistaken. These hot ladies from the FSU can get a local man who has a triangle torso and who is of a similar age. They can also net the odd local gangster who can probably outstrip you $ for $ several times.

These women choose to place themselves on a foreign facing agency for a reason, for opportunity and a better life in a better country. Of course they want a good man as part of that package but dont we all prefer agreeable relationships?

In response to KenC's comments on one point - Yes, my lady also asked me to consider living in Russia, we went as far as looking at houses, living in Russia is her first choice! (god knows why!) - yet my young son in England prevented that move (not to mention grim economy, roads, opportunity, healthcare and general lack of facilities in Russia)

To repeat myself - Russia (and most of the FSU) is indeed a very dirty barrel to which we plunge our arm in, occasionally (as KenC and I hope myself) we strike gold, but many suffer and regret the foray. Men should not be blinded by a few agency photos and a lot of agency bullsh!t to the reality. Men should accept the risks, learn about Russian society, learn about the dirty barrel that we place ourselves in. We should accept that a tiny minority of women on the internet are genuine and true in intent. The rest are bottom of society, pro daters, hookers and more! Read this and similar forums! Read mens trip reports! See the truth!

The FSU is a largely primitive, uncivilised and inhospitable place. It is survival of the fittest. Law of the jungle! Western rules do not apply. Learn that and you are half way there! Dont believe me? Look then in the FSU places like Tallinn, Estonia, FSU but now just in the EU (Andrewfin's home town) - see how many girls you find there in Agencies and willing to relocate! - FEW if ANY!

Yes you can win if you educate yourself. You can find an FSU wife who fulfills all your needs. And most of all you must accept the realities! You did not happen upon a girl who decided to change countries to be with her man as directed by fate and destiny. You met a woman who wanted a different life to what the FSU offered - you met an opportunist. (albeit with a good heart) Maybe you will be happy with her but maybe she will divorce you! Cover your assets (hard in the US) and the worst thing that can happen is you have your pick of several million other FSU women to have another try with!

Live in the real world and accept the facts and you may get lucky. Live in fantasy land and you are heading for the divorce courts! - Its that simple!

[Admin]

Andrews terminology can be difficult to comprehend and absorb, especially if you are US born and bred and are afflicted with an overly PC modus operandi. However, I shall reiterate for those who found it hard to grasp and do not read up...........

Manny,

I am, admittedly, picking on one small point in your lengthy post - but with good reason.

You need to recognize that a post such as this is offensive to at least some RWD members. It comes across as condescending and arrogant.

First off - not everyone who is "US born and bred" is "afflicted with an overly PC modus operandi." Neither is it any more difficult for a person who is "US born and bred" to understand Andrew than someone who is born and bred in Germany, Australia, or maybe even Mars.

That constitutes the condescending part.

The arrogance part comes from the implication in your message that YOU are able to interpret what those of us who are "US born and bred" cannnot - and you will "reiterate" it for us - presumably so that we might understand it based on your re-statement.

Sorry buddy - but I am perfectly capable of understanding the written word - even Andrew's relatively advanced prose - and need no help from you or anyone else - thank you very much. Further, my strong suspicion is that those who frequent this site are equally-capable, and at least for myself, I am not about to suggest that my interpretation or understanding of what anyone else here wrote, is superior to theirs. For you to suggest that is, as I hope you see, an act of arrogance.

From our previous correspondence, I believe you wish to be a valuable (and valued) contributing member of the RWD community - and I believe you can be - BUT - arrogance and condescension are not among the characteristics which will achieve that end.

- Dan

[prince_alfie]

I can vouchsafe that I have met the original poster in person. Lots of good and solid advice I have received over a dinner at Rasputin's.

Manny, good humor but a little too much methinks.

[BillyB]

The women who sell themselves to foreign guys are not. And yes, they DO sell themselves and you buy them.


Bruce, Ken and some others, if you live as a foreigner, in this part of the world, it is pretty hard to avoid contact with hookers. If you visit for a short time likewise. The only difference is whether you KNOW what you are dealing with, or not. It is probably true to say that most do not.
But, of course that is not germane to the discussion. But I realise that deflection by insult is helpful to some in coming to terms with their own situation.

Talk about insult, I guess everyone's feelings are hurt now. Andrew, if you are to talk about rejected RW the WM are running with, they are certainly going to question the girls you run with. You don't see much difference in a woman who wants to get married or work as a hooker. Maybe your view on this issue is based on a lack desire not to get married and a low opinion of women who marry foreigners or a longing for something you can't have without paying for it. Don't you think many women in agencies want love, commitment, decent looks, intelligence, fidelity, and a dependable father for their children or is money is the driving force for all their decisions? Maybe happiness is too difficult to find with the rejected local RW, and instead of being open to foreign men, RW should settle for RM leftovers and make it easy by negotiating price every night with the local boys who don't commit or be someone's mistress? Andrew, I really never fanthomed how whacked your thinking is on this issue until you once mentioned adoption agencies are selling children and people who adopt children are buying them. It doesn't seem to register to you people selfishly go out of their way to give children happiness and a child who's never seen his biological parents dream of being in a happy loving family. It's all about buy and sell to you.

Manchester, Maximum economic exploitation is for the guys who send pics of themselves standing next to their material possessions and like to show off the size of their wallet when visiting a RW. Not all guys don't do that. I certainly downplayed my economic situation so I don't attract gold diggers and no one can't accuse me of "maximum economic exploitation". Besides, why would guys use MEE to get more bang for the buck when some guys say all they are going to attract are rejects? Doesn't make sense.  I'd take a RW "reject" over AW trailer trash anyday. My fiancee has a German work visa and one of her best friends live in Germany. She doesn't need me for economic gain. There are smart RW out there that understand economic gain doesn't equal happiness. They clearly understand to look at the quality of the man, not his country or wallet. My kind of woman, smart and sincere.

[KenC]

That almost mirrors my own experience and opinion. Well written!

However..........

Contrary to KenC's assertions above, I am not critical of his marriage and most especially not his wife! I have in the past made him an example as to age difference but the man is still married, and for that we must have respect. We must by default assume he is happy and his wife is too. But I assert still that our Ken and his ilk (which are few in number) are the exception rather than the norm. In other posts and PM's they agree this themselves. I will quote if necessary.

Ken - I shall not go into your somewhat paranoid retort above point by point as Andrewfin covered most of it shortly after. However we have exchanged PM's about this subject and I did come away with a differing and positive opinion of your good self - dont kill it! My comments were not aimed at you. My comments were largely general. If you choose to make them personal then please take it to PM as I know Dan does not want p!$$ing matches on here. PS - There is no need to post everything bold! We can read it without! 

If you are speaking of the high risk of marrying a woman with a huge age difference, then my opinions are of public knowledge.  Your previous comments were not in that vain but made of RW in general, which I disagree.

Andrews terminology can be difficult to comprehend and absorb, especially if you are US born and bred and are afflicted with an overly PC modus operandi. However, I shall reiterate for those who found it hard to grasp and do not read up...........

Dan has already covered the arrogance of this statement, but let me add that it isn't that I don't understand Andrew or you for that matter, but it is that I do understand.  And I disagree.

These women choose to place themselves on a foreign facing agency for a reason, for opportunity and a better life in a better country. Of course they want a good man as part of that package but dont we all prefer agreeable relationships?

In response to KenC's comments on one point - Yes, my lady also asked me to consider living in Russia, we went as far as looking at houses, living in Russia is her first choice! (god knows why!) - yet my young son in England prevented that move (not to mention grim economy, roads, opportunity, healthcare and general lack of facilities in Russia)

Aren't the two highlighted statements in direct contradiction with each other?

To repeat myself - Russia (and most of the FSU) is indeed a very dirty barrel to which we plunge our arm in, occasionally (as KenC and I hope myself) we strike gold, but many suffer and regret the foray. Men should not be blinded by a few agency photos and a lot of agency bullsh!t to the reality. Men should accept the risks, learn about Russian society, learn about the dirty barrel that we place ourselves in. We should accept that a tiny minority of women on the internet are genuine and true in intent. The rest are bottom of society, pro daters, hookers and more! Read this and similar forums! Read mens trip reports! See the truth!

The FSU is a largely primitive, uncivilised and inhospitable place. It is survival of the fittest. Law of the jungle! Western rules do not apply. Learn that and you are half way there! Dont believe me? Look then in the FSU places like Tallinn, Estonia, FSU but now just in the EU (Andrewfin's home town) - see how many girls you find there in Agencies and willing to relocate! - FEW if ANY!

I do not agre that the fsu is an uncivilized and inhospitable place.  In fact in some ways I find them more advanced than America (education & culture).  You, like  Andrew, keep intermingling ideas about RW, agencies and women in agencies together in a hodge podge in order to try and substantiate your points.  Some agencies are unethical and sell their customers a bill of goods.  Some RW in agencies are bad.  Therefore RW are unethical and bad.  Nah, I ain't buying that logic at all, sorry.

Yes you can win if you educate yourself. You can find an FSU wife who fulfills all your needs. And most of all you must accept the realities! You did not happen upon a girl who decided to change countries to be with her man as directed by fate and destiny. You met a woman who wanted a different life to what the FSU offered - you met an opportunist. (albeit with a good heart) Maybe you will be happy with her but maybe she will divorce you! Cover your assets (hard in the US) and the worst thing that can happen is you have your pick of several million other FSU women to have another try with!
Live in the real world and accept the facts and you may get lucky. Live in fantasy land and you are heading for the divorce courts! - Its that simple!

#1 I am still not agreeing that all RW that marry AM are just taking advantage of the opportunity to move to America.  I still believe that you can find good moralistic women in Russia.  Being careful and cautious in marrying any woman is good advice.
KenC

[BC]

I think we're getting caught up in that old generalities morphing into majority then to absolutes.  OTOH a few 'choice' words are being used such as 'sold'.

One can argue that women in agencies are sold, but this is quite incorrect.  Their person is promoted, advertised and contact information passed on for a fee.  Profits are generated by these service type activities and not for transfer of the woman as products, goods or property.

Arguing that a commitment between individuals is a buyer/seller situation is also false.. Under normal western cultural circumstances there is no direct transfer of currencies or property that would be necessary to constitute a sale.  If anything it is a negotiation, compromise or deal with the ultimate goal being a contract of marriage.  Anybody here explicitly pay or receive a dowry?

In many ways my wife and I simply sat down together and negotiated the terms and conditions of our future together.  There were compromises and mutual benefits involved on both sides.  I believe this process is involved in all relationships regardless of origin.

It may sound heartless or loveless (maybe the aspect Andrew is attempting to point out), but as I have posted in the past the true love in our relationship ensued much later, after we both saw that the terms and conditions of our marriage were being respected, working in an emotionally satisfying manner and of mutual benefit.  Practical aspects are the foundation of our love.  I simply do not believe that love alone can form a solid foundation for a lasting relationship.

Notwithstanding everything written above, I am sure that there are many misguided or even mentally ill souls on both sides of the waters who indeed do approach the MOB venue in a manner more consistent with Andrew's buyer/seller concept. Fortunately the numbers are not absolute and all-encompassing.  The experiences shared here are evidence that degrees are involved and offense need not be taken universally.

[Jooky]

I'll go with the 90 / 10 theory.

90% of people are a good enough match for somebody. 10% are absolutely good for nothing. For an individual though only 10% are a good match, 1% or less if you're picky.

The problem with bridal agencies is that the worst of the bunch, those that stand to gain the most (by scamming, taking advantage of a guy for fancy coats and free dinners, or riding a mule to the promised land) are often the most active, most aggressive, and most likely to end up married to a foreigner.

Just because these women exist doesn't make the rest of the women out there on the net, most who will never even shakes hands with a foreign man, rotten by association.

I don't think Russia in general is a dirty barrel at all. The bridal industry is different as well. It's more like a pool with the sharks swimming on top ready to pounce on the fresh meat. You need to dive deep into the clear waters to find a pearl.

[BC]

I don't think Russia in general is a dirty barrel at all. The bridal industry is different as well. It's more like a pool with the sharks swimming on top ready to pounce on the fresh meat. You need to dive deep into the clear waters to find a pearl.

Ahh Jooky.. now calling my wife a shark and me fresh meat????

 

Really all, just a matter of terms and nothing to get upset about LOL

[KenC]

Maybe this will clear some things up, maybe not.  If our Estonian expert and his British sidekick want to insinuate that there are many unscrupulous agencies willing to use the allure of a pretty woman in order to make a buck, I agree.  Not all, maybe not even most, but many use unethical means.  But the activities of the agencies does not automatically devalue the women listed.  How much do the women listed with any agency even know about how they are promoted or marketed via the Net?  Look at Bruce's example up thread, where the agency wrote letters to him from his fiancee without her knowledge or consent.  The agencies unethical actions in no way devalues his fiancee because she was not knowingly involved.

And there are also many good sincere agencies too.  Agencies that have a high standard of ethics that are sincere in their efforts to facilitate good me meeting good women.  What makes it all the more confusing is that there are good girls in bad agencies and there are bad girls in good agencies.  How many of each?  That is subject to debate.

Now I admit that there appears to be something unsavory about agencies promoting the unrealistic dream to many a naive and inexperienced man, but that again goes back to the bad agencies.  I never had a problem with an agency turning a profit for services rendered as long as everything is on the up and up.  Businesses are created to make profits and the agencies are not doing charity work.

Besides, what is the standard advice given here in regard to agencies?  Remove them from the loop as soon as possible and get your relationship to one on one.  I worked with LTP eight years ago and they were of the highest integrity and very helpful in assisting me coordinate my first trip to Russia.  After facilitating our meeting, they had absolutely nothing to do with my relationship with my now wife.  Prior to our meeting they were a good source of information for me in regard to travel and general information about Russia.  If anything, they sincerely tried to dissuade me from getting in too deep with a woman that was so much younger than I.  (And that was the right advice in general, but not necessarily correct in our specific case).

To include all agencies in Andrew's "dirty barrel" theory is just plain wrong.  Look at some of the fine agencies represented here on this forum.  I can think of 3 off the top of my head that are sincerely trying to help guide guys into the right choices.  How on earth can they be considered part of any "dirty barrel?"  I also find it ironic that these theories come from a man that is neither looking for a wife nor is dealing with any agencies.  What the hell is the value of his opinion other than to inflame or provoke?  Or maybe it is just a form of jealousy and he needs to bring us down to his level of buying a woman's attention.
KenC

[PeeWee]

I'm biting my lip here. 

Peevee

[catzenmouse]

I'm biting my lip here. 

Peevee

PeeVee,
 
 Don't be shy now. And anyway it is alot more fun to bite her lip isn't it?

Ken

[Turboguy]

I know I would rather bite her lip if I had a her with a lip to bite.

I wish I had something original to say on the thread but I think Kenc and BC have said things about as clearly and correctly as possible and as much fun as they are to disagree with sometimes,  I don't think the opposing forces have a leg to stand on with thier arguement.

[BillyB]

Andrew may be unpopular with some of his views but he sees the real picture. Not sure? Andrew lives in Estonia, FSU now Europe. The streets are bristling with drop dead gorgeous girls. Find some on a dating site! You will find only a handful! But these are FSU girls? Why aren't they in an abundance like Ukrainian girls? Have a think guys!

Manchester, I've decided to have a think! I've went to Bride.ru and found 510 Estonian women, 9561 Ukrainian women, and 40,726 Russian women. I went to free personals and found 215 Estonian women, 4646 Ukrainian women and 13,860 Russian women. The totals for the 2 dating sites are 725 Estonian women, 14,207 Ukrainian women, and 54,586 Russian women.

Then I went to the CIA factbook website and found Estonia's GDP per capita at $16,700, Russia's at $11,100, and Ukraine's at $7200. So based on economy Estonia's GDP per capita is higher than Russia's by 1.5X and Ukraine's by 2.3X. With the much better economy per person, less women should be wanting to leave Estonia. Right? Wrong!

Russia's population is 142,893,540 and Ukraine's at 46,710,816, and Estonia's at 1,324,333. Assuming women listed themselves once at either out of the two websites and for argument's sake half the population is designated women, these are the ratio of women listed at the dating sites:
 1 out of 1309 women in Russia is listed at one of those two dating sites
 1 out of 1644 women in Ukraine is listed at one of those two dating sites
 1 out of 913 women in Estonia is listed at one of those two dating site.

Based on best economic conditions, Estonia should have the fewest percentages of women looking for a better life through marriage, Russian second and Ukraine third but it's the exact opposite!!! Ukraine has the fewest women seeking a foreign man per person, Russia second and Estonia has the most women per person seeking love elsewhere or rejecting their men depending how you look at it. Estonia's financially secure, drop dead gorgeous women are advertising themselves on international dating sites almost twice the rate as finacially strapped Ukrainian women!

Manchester, can you accept the real picture?

[PeeWee]

PeeVee,
 
 Don't be shy now. And anyway it is alot more fun to bite her lip isn't it?

Ken

I am excercising great restraint. I want to say but the better part of me tells me to hold my tongue. Sunday begings the new football season. I become incongnito for the day, through February. I told this to Lena already as a beginning to her acclimation to the great sport of American football. I send her photos of my favorite players too. Shawn Alexander, for example.

Regarding the lip. I am not a biter but let me ask you this, when an RW gives to you a back massage to they all attack your back as if it were the second coming of the German army?

Peevee

[chivo]

Manchester, I've decided to have a think! I've went to Bride.ru and found 510 Estonian women, 9561 Ukrainian women, and 40,726 Russian women. I went to free personals and found 215 Estonian women, 4646 Ukrainian women and 13,860 Russian women. The totals for the 2 dating sites are 725 Estonian women, 14,207 Ukrainian women, and 54,586 Russian women.

Then I went to the CIA factbook website and found Estonia's GDP per capita at $16,700, Russia's at $11,100, and Ukraine's at $7200. So based on economy Estonia's GDP per capita is higher than Russia's by 1.5X and Ukraine's by 2.3X. With the much better economy per person, less women should be wanting to leave Estonia. Right? Wrong!

Russia's population is 142,893,540 and Ukraine's at 46,710,816, and Estonia's at 1,324,333. Assuming women listed themselves once at either out of the two websites and for argument's sake half the population is designated women, these are the ratio of women listed at the dating sites:
 1 out of 1309 women in Russia is listed at one of those two dating sites
 1 out of 1644 women in Ukraine is listed at one of those two dating sites
 1 out of 913 women in Estonia is listed at one of those two dating site.

Based on best economic conditions, Estonia should have the fewest percentages of women looking for a better life through marriage, Russian second and Ukraine third but it's the exact opposite!!! Ukraine has the fewest women seeking a foreign man per person, Russia second and Estonia has the most women per person seeking love elsewhere or rejecting their men depending how you look at it. Estonia's financially secure, drop dead gorgeous women are advertising themselves on international dating sites almost twice the rate as finacially strapped Ukrainian women!

Manchester, can you accept the real picture?

good points Billy,

I'm going to bite my tongue somewhat as well as i don't want to attack people who are, in many cases defenseless. But...

will you stop with the Estonia is Russia crap so he must know. 3 out of 4 people who live in Estonia are NOT Russian.

Try doing some research into the history of the country and you'll see that Russia invaded Estonia twice during its existence and for very short periods of time relative to its history. Their history isn't Russian, although some Russian ways were forced down their throats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Estonia

Most of the Russians that were/are there are Russians who left the motherland to avoid mostly religious persecution.

If anyone has been to Estonia, you'll notice a very strong scandinavian flavor, much more so that Russian. The primary language is Estonian, a finno-ugric language. while Russian is spoken there also, i can assure you that English is the next commonly spoken language for the 25 yr old and under generation, many who don't speak Russian at all (yes i know some and none speak Russian, but all speak English).

in other words, Estonia is no more Russian than say Poland or Finland, both who possess a Russian community greater than Estonia.

I suggest you have it a "think" about it .

the poster as i have said earlier, at times gives decent advice. but most of the time he spends trying to ruffle the feathers of other posters. he has got exactly what he intended to get when he made his initial remark...a strong reaction.

i mean isn't the internet great?

we can sit back and talk about what we know and who we are without much of a check and balance. we can we can promote ourselves as something greater than we are, because most of us will never meet each other. what does this have to do with anything?

well, some can sit back and call others "saddos", even if many of them are better looking and have more money.

some can sit back and talk about economic solutions to all the worlds problems, fiscal trends and market analysis, and justify it by presenting oneself as an astute businessman, yet in reality, they barely eek out a living themselves and have failed in many endeavors.

some can tell you all about a language and that any woman who doesn't make an attempt to learn another language is lazy, yet can only speak one language and possesses a vocabulary in the language they so "expertly" talk about of less than 10 words.

some can tell you all about your life and how things evolved in your life without even meeting you or experiecing things how you yourself have experienced them. well i could go on and on, but why? believe me, I'm biting my tongue as i write so ill just end it with this...

isn't the internet great? peace out.

chivo

[Turboguy]

I am excercising great restraint. I want to say but the better part of me tells me to hold my tongue. Sunday begings the new football season. I become incongnito for the day, through February. I told this to Lena already as a beginning to her acclimation to the great sport of American football. I send her photos of my favorite players too. Shawn Alexander, for example.

Hope you sent a few of my favorites too, the Ref's

Regarding the lip. I am not a biter but let me ask you this, when an RW gives to you a back massage to they all attack your back as if it were the second coming of the German army?

For the number of trips I have made I have had little sex with FSU women, but I have had more of a problem with them attacking my front than my back.  I will agree that I have had some back rubs that were more like something you would experince in a torture chamber.
Peevee

[KenC]

Good on topic posts Billy & Chivo,
The reason there is so many Estonians listed in agencies now might be due to the persecution of the ethnic Russians living in the Baltics.  I know that the Communist government forced ethnic Russians to live in their satellite countries (regions) in order to promote a sense of Russian influence where there was little.  The Baltics always resented the Russians and the influence that Russia forced on them.  After the Baltics became separate countries, there was and still is a great deal of lash back toward Russia and the Russians living within their countries.  I know that there was a great amount of turmoil involved where the Baltic governments were even taking away property owned by ethic Russians as they were trying to force them out of their countries.  There was even an incident earlier this year where one of the Baltic countries erected a war monument to honor the German soldiers from WWII.  If you know anything about Russians, you would know that the best way to get under their skin is to do something to honor a country (Germany) that killed millions of their people.  That was the intention of the monument.
  I suspect that many of the ladies listed in agencies from the Baltic countries are ethnic Russians seeking to leave a country where they are not wanted.  The end results are that these women have listed themselves with agencies in order to relocate and remove themselves from political and ethnic persecution not because they seek to improve their economic standings.  Yet another group of women that do not fit the profile provided by Andrew or Manchester.

Peewee & Turbo,
While I too am excited about the football season, please try to maintain some self control and post on topic.  I am sure there is a blog available on ESPN.com for your football needs.
KenC

[Manny]

The point remains that Estonia has many people who may hold an Estonian passport but consider themselves Russian so the figures may be slightly skewed. Russian is widely spoken there but not as much with the under 25s as said.

What do I know? I have only been a few dozen times and have a flat and many Russian friends there? 

The dating per capita figures look interesting and conflict with what I believe, on these points I eagerly await Andrewfins comments, after what does he know also? He only lives there! 

Also in response to another poster, nobody said it is Russia, I said it is FSU which it is.

[SANDRO43]

I suspect that many of the ladies listed in agencies from the Baltic countries are ethnic Russians ...

This would be confirmed by the fact that most of them declare typically Russian first names.

KenC, don't you get hoarse shouting all the time ?

[BillyB]

Also in response to another poster, nobody said it is Russia, I said it is FSU which it is.

That I agree with you on Manchester. Where did anyone say Estonia is Russia or has a majority of Russian people there? I answered your challenge using FSU nations. Edited: Looks like Sandro found a comment about a mention many ethnic Russians are heading to the agencies but that's KenC's opinion, not a statement of fact.

I did some calculations on two other FSU nations and found out Kazakhstan with a GDP per capita of $8200 has a ratio of 1 out of 3084 women on those two sites and Uzbekistan with a GDP per capita of $1800 has a ratio of 1 out of 5414 women on those two sites. The trend remains the same but I suspect less women in these two countries are willing to relocate, some because of religious differences with WM and possible lack of Internet access even though I seen enough internet cafes in the main part of Tashkent.

I tried to look at the numbers of women in some of the larger agencies but I couldn't get decent numbers because there should be a proper amount of agencies per population to get an accurate view of women who are willing to marry foreigners. There are very few agencies for the amount of population in Uzbekistan and Kazahkstan.

Added: Manchestor, I give Andrew and you a lot of credit for your knowledge of Estonia based on him living there and you owning property there but knowing what every Estonian woman is doing at the computer is something you two have no knowledge of. But with research, we can go to a dating site and look at the quantity of women who listed themselves and divide that into the female population to get a feel of what ratio of women are willing to do that per nation. I live in America and when I visited another forum, I was surprised at the amount of American women marrying Arabs, Indians(India), and Africans. Certainly they are not marrying for money, maybe it's that they are attracted to men of darker skin or they are simply lonely looking for love elsewhere since they haven't found it here. Nothing wrong with that.

[BC]

If I remember correctly we recently went down this road of statistics a little while back..

I think as it relates to this topic, the use of statistics in this endeavor tend to encourage mistakes by providing false comfort in misleading and imprecise information.

Tell a guy that there are 10.000 good agency women waiting for him in FSU and he's on the plane competing with 9.999 other guys chasing a few of the top 100 agency women..  What he does not know is that there are probably a few hundred thousand good women not listed at agencies in the general population of these countries that would make wonderful wives if his social skills, resources and ability to communicate are up to snuff.

I did not even seek a woman from FSU.. my mind was open to any nationality, yes including AW.  The fact that I ended up with a RW is purely coincidental.  Some may, (and have said) I am a lucky SOB but my 'luck' per se is more a factor of exposure and keeping my eyes open to opportunity than the kind of luck needed to win in Las Vegas.. a town built completely by loosers.

If you really look closely, agencies and MOB businesses do not profit from success.  The successful matches they tout are advertisement write-offs.. nothing more, nothing less.

All IMHO and FWIW, hopefully providing a slightly different viewing angle, provoking further thought and discourse..

[KenC]

The point remains that Estonia has many people who may hold an Estonian passport but consider themselves Russian so the figures may be slightly skewed. Russian is widely spoken there but not as much with the under 25s as said.

What do I know? I have only been a few dozen times and have a flat and many Russian friends there? 

The dating per capita figures look interesting and conflict with what I believe, on these points I eagerly await Andrewfins comments, after what does he know also? He only lives there! 
Also in response to another poster, nobody said it is Russia, I said it is FSU which it is.

Manny,
You make the smart azz remarks and yet you do not impart any of your inside information to confirm or dispute the posts made about Estonia.  If you have conflicting or supporting information, give it up.  Don't just make a wise azz remark and leave.

My information comes from what I have read, learned from Russian TV and a Baltic woman I know.  With all due respect to you and Andrew especially, this is a topic (Estonia) that I would respect his information not the many other subjects where his opinions are offered with no hands on experience.
KenC

[TexasBoar]

If you really look closely, agencies and MOB businesses do not profit from success.  The successful matches they tout are advertisement write-offs.. nothing more, nothing less.

Well, consider my inexperience a factor in my opinion, BUT . . . it seems to me that there are two main possibilities operating:

1.  MOB agencies exist to scam AM.

2. MOB agencies are in business to find AM for RW (and, of course, vice versa).

If 1, and RW are all in on the scam . . .   . . . then successful matches would be nonexistent.  If 1, but RW aren't in on the scam, but are being scammed themselves, your contention would hold.

However, if 2, then . . . yes, MOB agencies would certainly profit from extending the process for as long as humanly possible, and opportunities for scam would be rife.  Which seems, of course, to be pretty much the case.  BUT . . . unless they can provide some evidence of successful matches, the only RW who would sign up for services would be scammers.

I would imagine that ALL these scenarios exist simultaneously, and that many of you are arguing over the appearance of the "elephant" according to which bit of it you've laid hold.

I note that successful members here fall into three main categories: those who say "do it like I did and ONLY like I did," those who say "NO ONE could do it like I did, so there's no point in you even trying" . . . and those of broader experience and genuine helpfulness.

And I ain't naming names, either.  

~Boar

[BillyB]

I think as it relates to this topic, the use of statistics in this endeavor tend to encourage mistakes by providing false comfort in misleading and imprecise information.

That's is correct, stats should be used to get a general feel of what's happening, in this case, ratio of FSU women that are signing up on "international dating sites". If a WM chooses to tartget Estonia based on the stats I provided and the fact Estonian women, on average, are more receptive to getting hooked up with foreigners more than women from Russia, Ukraine, etc...., then he makes his decision based on an act of desperation more a fact of trying to increase his chances of success. Just because Estonian women prefer foreign men more than other FSU women, it shouldn't mean ALL men should start focusing on Estonian women exclusively for increased success. Though I was still open to dating women at home, I specifically targeted RW in my search abroad and I was willing to write/travel to any RW from any country looking for the best woman, not any woman from "best" or "easiest to get to" country.

P.S I added to and edited my previous post a little late for those that care to re-read it.

[BC]

Boar,

You forget scenario nr. 3.. the 90% of guys that pay sign up fees, write letters, pay for translations etc and never get on the plane.

Like placing a bet and walking away from the table.

This is where the real money is at I think.

Heck, I think I'm almost to the point that I would not feel bad at all listing a few hundred women, write ficticious love letters all day and reimburse every dime to those that do get on a plane. It would probably still be quite profitable.

Ask RVR how difficult it is to turn an honest buck doing things the right way..