RW Demographics

[TexasBoar]

Well, that's certainly a good point, and one of the reasons I'm not actively contacting women until I make a definite decision (although I have floated a "test profile") is that I don't want to be THAT guy, lol.   

Frankly, though, it makes me wonder---why scam at all? Pure vicious venality? Naked greed? Poor raising, as we say down here?  I mean . . . if hardly anyone's going to show up anyway, you sure don't have to do much work for those membership fees and overpriced flower deliveries. 

~Boar

[Turboguy]

Boar,  Easy.  If they can make $ 500.00 a week being honest or $ 5000.00 a week doing a scam it is just going to happen. 

You are smart learning what you are doing before you jump in head first.  Wish RWD had been around when I started.

I liked your three catagories but thought the logic in your scammer part was a little flawed.

Ken, your posts sort of conflict with Andrewfins which said Estonia had the most freedom of any where in the world.  Frankly you get my vote on the difference.

Sorry about the side comment.  I think I will have your post engraved in stone and post it anytime I see you make a side comment or one off topic which has been many times.

[jb]

I can think of a few "what ifs" that may explain the relatively low turnout of women from Estonia vs. the rest of the FSU.

1.) One aspect no one has mentioned, yet Andrew did touch on it is; every country has it's poor.  Of all the population cross section of any country, it's always the lower economic class who are always most anxious and most willing to relocate.  The country's middle class and those with stable incomes are not the ones apt to roll the dice on a BBD in a new country.  Forget entirely about the country's upper economic class, the rich are not going anywhere except on vacation.  If you go to Estonia to find a bride, your chances of coming home with an Estonian equivalent of what we call trailer trash increase in direct proportion to the height of her hooker high heels and inversely proportional to the length of her mini-skirt.  If you factor in some young girls willingness to sleep with a virtual stranger, often he is many years her senior, within a day or two of first meeting, and you should have a fairly accurate picture of the situation.  Same holds true of Russia and Ukraine.   

2.) Regardless of what brand of soap is being sold by politicians today, and meaning no disrespect to the Brits or other Europeans here, America is still the world's shining beacon of hope.  The immigration tide to the USA is still very much on the flood, never on the ebb.  If you asked the would be immigrant what country he would prefer to travel to, prolly the first choice would be the USA.

3.) Women are generally the ones less likely to pull up stakes and head out into the unknown, men are generally more courageous about this.  For every woman you see listed as willing to relocate I'd guess there are that number, X 100, of men who would move in a heartbeat.  Even those women who are willing to make the move will tend only to comtemplate such a radical departure from her regular life if there is a man around to haul the freight for her, hence the MOB agency's success.   

4.) I believe it is true, as Andrew says, that sprinkled liberally amongst the MOB candidates in the industry's catalogs are a huge number of scammers and con artists, this would include what we refer to as Pro-Daters and GCGs.  I would bet that applies to Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania as well as Ukraine and Russia.  Every society has it's criminal element.  Lest you not forget this fact, do so and the odds of being fleeced go up exponentially.

5.) While it's entirely possible to find a good hearted and true woman in an MOB agency, I believe it's a greater gamble than most men realize.  I also believe that most of those good hearted and true women are not the #10's, super sexy Banner girls on the agency website mastheads.  That's the age old tactic called "Bait & Switch".  This is why most of us who have married good RW's so often preach due diligence to those with the stars in their eyes and visions of nubile young sugarplumbs in their heads. 

I believe I could, with a little time, come up with items 6 thru 12. 

Flame away.

[PeeWee]

Boar,

You forget scenario nr. 3.. the 90% of guys that pay sign up fees, write letters, pay for translations etc and never get on the plane.

Like placing a bet and walking away from the table.

This is where the real money is at I think.

Heck, I think I'm almost to the point that I would not feel bad at all listing a few hundred women, write ficticious love letters all day and reimburse every dime to those that do get on a plane. It would probably still be quite profitable.

Ask RVR how difficult it is to turn an honest buck doing things the right way..

This action of "...placing a bet and walking away from the table," is not unique to the MOB, BC. How many millions of dollars per year of "pure profit" is gained by American business in unredeemed gift certificates?  The total dollars made could easly outstrip those dollars made by MOB owners from guys who paid and walked. Yet no one seems to be pointing any scam fingers at the various us business concerns. Business is business and income gained, as long as it is not gained illegally, is but the name of the game.

Peevee

[TexasBoar]

While it's entirely possible to find a good hearted and true woman in an MOB agency, I believe it's a greater gamble than most men realize.  I also believe that most of those good hearted and true women are not the #10's, super sexy Banner girls on the agency website mastheads.  That's the age old tactic called "Bait & Switch".  This is why most of us who have married good RW's so often preach due diligence to those with the stars in their eyes and visions of nubile young sugarplums in their heads.

Yeah, but between the rah-rah cheerleaders and the grim and baleful naysayers, us noobs are getting whiplash! 

Had occasion to think about what you posted earlier on "sponsors" as I was going through some search results on an agency website . . . and noting the large number of absolutely smoking hot 30 year old women listed as "single, no kids" and with ambiguous professions. 

I take your cautionary notes seriously, btw.  But I do think it's a bit nonsensical to tell people to just get on a plane and go, when there's a vast industry devoted entirely to introducing AM to women who've already expressed an interest in meeting them!

Has to be a sensible middle ground in there somewhere.

~Boar

[catzenmouse]

Boar,

 If you think you've got whiplash now just wait until you are walking down the street in AnyCity FSU! You'll be pulling Linda Blair type Exorcist moves just to keep up with the "sights"!

 One of the best reasons to "just get up and go" is to get your feet wet in the FSU without having any expectations on dating/wife hunting/etc. The best thing you can do is to look at it as a vacation and if you happen to meet a few ladies while you are there then that is even better. Sure, write to a few, take some agency addresses/phone numbers but really just pick a place and go see what it is all about.

 You'll find out more information with one trip than you will listening to us here in a year. You've done good already by getting the scoop on a lot of this but it won't really kick in until you have your feet on the ground there. No matter what else may happen you will have one hell of a time!

Ken

[TexasBoar]

Well, the nicest part of teaching is having summers off . . . 

~Boar

[andrewfi]

To those who suggest that statistics can say anything, well, they can, but only in the same way that words can - one can lie with numbers as well as with words, although for most it is harder to do, but less easy to detect.

Somebody pointed out that there seems to a be a disproportionate number of women on Bride.ru as though this was some kind of disproof of earlier points. A brief examination is instructive.
1) Bride.ru is a part of the largest dating/contact service in the FSU with IIRC over 4.5 million profiles. It is not analogous to AFA, Khersongirls, or even the much loved Hot Russian Brides. It is much more akin to Match.com or YahooPersonals. The profiles that turn up in Bride.ru are as a result of fishing through the database of those millions of profiles and, IIRC, a tick box on the application form indicating a willingness to consider a foreign guy. Basically, most of the profiles on Bride.ru do NOT come from women whose primary purpose is a foreign marriage, but from women who are willing to consider a foreign marriage - recent polls suggested that about 30% of Russian women were willing to consider a relationship with a foreign man, about the same proportion as most countries around the world. Incidentally, this is why, IMHO, so many guys find that they have good results with Bride.ru. They are avoiding the worst of the women, the ones in marriage agencies, who specifically target foreign guys. These women, in most part, are simply seeking a dating relationship/marriage with a local guy and will consider the propositions made by foreign guys on their own merits. A very different case to the woman who actively markets herself through a foreign facing marriage agency -even though as noted, there is undoubtedly some crossover in the market, just as with other US or European oriented dating/ contact sites.

2) Almost all the Estonian profiles are from ethnic Russian women. Ethnic Estonians would be most unlikely to use love.mail.ru and associated sites. Thus, if Billy's suggestion was correct that would indicate that even more women were willing to move and would then beg the question 'is there something inherent to Russian women that drives them to export themselves?' A question that I do not believe to be valid, but the only kinds of answers I can conjecture are not pretty and do not accord with my observations.

3) I suggested a few months ago that there was not a single mail order bride agency operating in Estonia. Somebody corrected me, the last one still has a website, although their business is now apartment rentals for tourists and on line horoscope readings.

IMHO, the willingness of women to export themselves is a 'tipping point' phenomenon. This is a phenomenon whereby a small incremental change to a single input results in a disproportionately large change in the system as a whole. If 'ordinary' women see a benefit in moving, they will do so, if the see the opportunity of a decent life where either are, they will stay. The tipping point was passed in Estonia probably 6-8 years ago, if not more. It was passed in the Czech Republic about 8-10 years ago. Both countries DID have a thriving bride export industry.
Chances are that the tipping point has been reached in many parts of Russia already. I would suggest that if Ken were to revisit Tver, as himself at the age he was 7-8 years ago and of similar means, he would have a very different outcome and for the reasons noted up-thread.
But, what can we infer about the effects of a tipping point on a phenomenon such as wife export?
1) If 'normal' women are more optimistic about their future then they will be less likely to move. The evidence of the historical and current record confirms this consistently.
2) Given that the bride export industry is a business and a market (and even the most naive duffer knows that this is the case) then we know that a market operates to meet the demand of consumers. But if the supply of raw material goes down then two things will happen. The average quality of the raw material will tend to fall and the price will rise. We have seen this effect happening. If an American wants to marry a woman from Estonia he must almost certainly come here to start his search. He will probably have to live here a while to engage his search  - the cost is much higher than a few years ago when he could write a few letters or emails and get on a plane to meet a bevy of beauties, many of whom would be genuinely seeking a man to take them away from Narva, or even Tallinn. Nowadays the number of 'woman not present scams' is increasing in Russia. Even agency owners tell you lot, time and again that there is a shortage of women. The cost has increased because the quality has gone down and resources are expended upon women who do not exist or who have no intention of leaving behind a decent life.

As to the role of agencies: Even the best of 'em know what they have, both on terms of the men who are their visiting clients and the women who are their local clients/stock in trade. (I see it that way round because the guys pay and women do not, whether you think women are sold or simply information is moot. Given that we know that not all economic transactions are necessarily cash based to see the women as stock that is sold is not unreasonable, especially given that the end result is a PERSON moving from one country to another as the result of money changing hands in response to a woman's acceptance of a guys terms which are largely economic in nature.)

In short the dirty barrel to which I have referred on many occasions is the business, not agencies, not women but the whole business. But, just as when I want to buy a cheap car I might go to the nearest junk car seller and, if I don't mind getting my hands a little dirty I might drive away in an uncharacteristically good specimen, but get my hands dirty  I certainly will. The reality is that this particular used car market and its stock is more dirty than it was half a decade ago.

BTW, jb, it is possibly true that many around the world hold the US as a (somewhat tarnished) beacon, but the evidence suggests that it is not the frontranking destination that you suggested. There are many more women moving to Europe, a similar sized market, than the US. Of course discourse on a largely US oriented board tends to conceal the realities a little.

[Turboguy]

A few short comments I have.   I think one guage of things is the age difference a woman is willing to accept.  I think most gals perfer a small age difference but if their only options are a larger one they will do what they must.   I have noticed that girls in Estonian listings almost always specify a small age difference. 

I also agree there is a growing number of women who prefer to marry a man from Europe.  I think part of that is the poorer image the USA is projecting now as Andrewfin pointed out.  Of course the ease of visits home is another factor.  I have to say after Iraq and IMBRA even my image of the USA is a tad lower than it was, but still ok. 

[KenC]

They are avoiding the worst of the women, the ones in marriage agencies, who specifically target foreign guys. These women, in most part, are simply seeking a dating relationship/marriage with a local guy and will consider the propositions made by foreign guys on their own merits. A very different case to the woman who actively markets herself through a foreign facing marriage agency -even though as noted, there is undoubtedly some crossover in the market, just as with other US or European oriented dating/ contact sites.

Andrew,
Is it possible that you do not quite understand that just because a woman lists herself in an agency that it doesn't mean she is only using that method to seek a man?  And that men using agencies are also still dating local gals?  Many of the RW list themselves in agencies and still continue to date local RM.  I would dare say the majority.  I know my wife did.  I also know that I continued to date AW up until the time my relationship became exclusive with her.

I also think you are way over estimating any influence a woman has in "actively marketing" herself via an agency.  Most women sign up, fill out a profile and submit a few photos and are done with the process until there is a response.  Not much different than a dating site as I see it.  There is usually no active particpation in marketing themselves as you perceive it.

As to the role of agencies: Even the best of 'em know what they have, both on terms of the men who are their visiting clients and the women who are their local clients/stock in trade. (I see it that way round because the guys pay and women do not, whether you think women are sold or simply information is moot. Given that we know that not all economic transactions are necessarily cash based to see the women as stock that is sold is not unreasonable, especially given that the end result is a PERSON moving from one country to another as the result of money changing hands in response to a woman's acceptance of a guys terms which are largely economic in nature.)

Sorry, but there is a huge difference between selling information and selling people.

In short the dirty barrel to which I have referred on many occasions is the business, not agencies, not women but the whole business. But, just as when I want to buy a cheap car I might go to the nearest junk car seller and, if I don't mind getting my hands a little dirty I might drive away in an uncharacteristically good specimen, but get my hands dirty 

I simply do not agree with your analogy at all.  There simply no chance of driving away in a perfect Mercedes from a junk yard and you can find the equivalent in RW listed in agencies.  Maybe the selection of women listed in agencies are slightly tilted in favor of scammers and more desperate women, but the overall cross section of women is of a much higher standard than you suggest.  Under any circumstance, there is no "dirty barrel" or "dirty hands".
KenC

[BillyB]

2) Almost all the Estonian profiles are from ethnic Russian women. Ethnic Estonians would be most unlikely to use love.mail.ru and associated sites.

That sounds like an opinion instead of fact. I can agree through common sense a higher ratio of Russian than Estonian women want to leave Estonia compared to the ratio in the population but ratios don't mean "more". 1 out of 4 people in Estonia are Russian as Chivo pointed out, but it's hard to believe the overwhelming majority are Russian women from Estonia is on those dating sites. Looking at Uzbekistan with poor economic conditions and only 10% Russians, I can understand Russian women wanting to leave but just roughly looking at the dating sites, I estimate just less than 50% are Russian women which is less than a majority. I would have to estimate at least 50% of the women on dating sites are Estonian women. But the fact that Estonia is economically per person well off compared to other FSU nations, one would think Estonia would have less percentages of women wanting to leave unless Estonians have made it a very hostile environment for Russians.

Anyone can do the math using the numbers freepersonals and bride.ru are giving for the amount of women for every nation in their database. You will come to the same conclusion I have. Per person, women are leaving FSU nations with a better economy at a higher rate than nations with not so good economy. I can assure everybody I'm not here to deceive you with faulty numbers. To ruin my credibility to disprove another poster with deception on my part isn't worth it.

I'll agree with Andrew that more women are moving to Europe than the U.S but one must take into consideration other facts such as there are 50% more men in Europe, close proximity to a lady's home nation, the ease of obtaining visas in Europe and the need for women to work in the commercial sex industry which is legal in many parts of Europe. But with all things being equal, the results may be different.

[BC]

I'll agree with Andrew that more women are moving to Europe than the U.S but one must take into consideration other facts such as there are 50% more men in Europe, close proximity to a lady's home nation, the ease of obtaining visas in Europe and the need for women to work in the commercial sex industry which is legal in many parts of Europe. But with all things being equal, the results may be different.

Billy,

From here sounds quite defensive.. Four WM/FSU couples, three biological kids and no adult industry workers that I know of..  50% more men?

Yes there are FSU women working here in the adult industry but they can usually do this legally if they want.

There's no 'beef' in your insinuations.

[BillyB]

Billy,

From here sounds quite defensive.. Four WM/FSU couples, three biological kids and no adult industry workers that I know of..  50% more men?

Yes there are FSU women working here in the adult industry but they can usually do this legally if they want.

There's no 'beef' in your insinuations.

BC, I'm not following you on what you're trying to get at. JB made a comment most immigrants would choose to live in America which is a beacon of hope, and I'll add to that for economic reasons. I would agree on that but I also agree with Andrew that most RW have chosen Europe but disagree with him that it's a similar size market and explained to him other factors that make it easy for women to enter the EU. There are 50% more men in the EU and there should be 50% more eligible bachelors for women to get married to. It's easier to obtain a visa, and in another thread here. based on media reports, hundred of thousands of women willingly/legally or unwillingly/illegally are entering Europe's commercial sex industry. If everything was equal, the story would be different. An increase of population, America's re-location if possible, the easing up on visas, and the legalization of prostitution in more States than Nevada would equalize the situation with Europe and could increase the number of women that want to enter the U.S. It's a matter of matching apples with apples instead of oranges. Most of America's illegal immigrants are men since they have more courage to cross the desert than women and children.

[Manny]

Billy

Irrespective of what Wilki says, Estonia today contains many Russians that are 'Estonian' on the figures. At EU Entry all the former grey passport holders were given an opportunity to stay and become Estonian - most did. Yet they still remain ethnic Russians.

Irrespective of the Estonian government removing all the hammer & sickles and taking away all the Cyrillic signs, (and pretending to be part of Scandinavia) Estonia remains predominantly Russian influenced. Russian is understood everywhere in Estonia, a fact proved my my most recent visit with my lady. English is understood yes indeed, but Russian more so.

Native Estonians do try to make life uncomfortable for Russians but are mostly outnumbered by them, Estonians are a silent majority in their own country (a situation we Brits sympathise with after Blair)

It was me who corrected Andrew on the single remaining Estonian website featuring local women some time ago, but as he says, that site now sells apartment lets & psychic Maria, and only has a few profiles left that I personally know are over 5 years old! - no new ones!

KenC

I question the validity of arguing with you as you clearly have more spare time than me to argue and when you are proved wrong your pal Dan steps in to quell it for you....... but here goes.......

I also think you are way over estimating any influence a woman has in "actively marketing" herself via an agency.  Most women sign up, fill out a profile and submit a few photos and are done with the process until there is a response.  Not much different than a dating site as I see it.

The point was FOREIGN FACING agencies - not local ones.

Sorry, but there is a huge difference between selling information and selling people.

Not in this context - a man pays - a girl moves country - thus the man pays, thus it is a transaction of sorts - I found this hard to swallow at first but you should accept the facts.

there is no "dirty barrel" or "dirty hands".

You have read enough on this and similar boards to know different. You and I may have come out relatively unscathed but there are many that have been badly burned. You are clearly WRONG here. Take your rose coloured glasses off?

In short - anyone that has not spent significant time in Estonia cannot possibly comment. It has been a rapidly changing place from 1992 till now. This board has many members - let one come forward who has an ETHNIC Estonian wife?

I await the silence!

[KenC]

KenC

I question the validity of arguing with you as you clearly have more spare time than me to argue and when you are proved wrong your pal Dan steps in to quell it for you....... but here goes.......

Dan spanked for your arrogance, nothing more.  He didn't add anything to the debate, so quite crying.

I also think you are way over estimating any influence a woman has in "actively marketing" herself via an agency.  Most women sign up, fill out a profile and submit a few photos and are done with the process until there is a response.  Not much different than a dating site as I see it.

The point was FOREIGN FACING agencies - not local ones.

My comments were intended for agencies "marketing" RW to foreigners.  (I guess that is what you meant by "foreign facing" agencies?)

Sorry, but there is a huge difference between selling information and selling people.

Not in this context - a man pays - a girl moves country - thus the man pays, thus it is a transaction of sorts - I found this hard to swallow at first but you should accept the facts.

Where do you get this stuff?  Not only is your statement incorrect but it isn't even logical!  The man pays the agencies for services and information period.  The RW's decision to accept the K-1 "proposal" is entirely her own swperate from the agency.  The money transfers do not cross in any way.

there is no "dirty barrel" or "dirty hands".

You have read enough on this and similar boards to know different. You and I may have come out relatively unscathed but there are many that have been badly burned. You are clearly WRONG here. Take your rose coloured glasses off?

There are bad women every where in every country.  There are plenty of AW that willing able and capable of taking advantage of a fool and his money.  In Andrew's explanation of his "dirty barrel" theory, he used shopping for a car in a junk yard.  What proves his theory wrong is that there is zero possibility of finding a shiney new Mercedes EVER in a junk yard.  That there is a possibility of finding a fine high quality woman in an agency, which you do admit, is further proof that his theory is BS

I await the silence!

You have to make a MUCH stronger argument to shut me up.  This was very weak.
KenC






[/quote]

[BillyB]

In short - anyone that has not spent significant time in Estonia cannot possibly comment. It has been a rapidly changing place from 1992 till now. This board has many members - let one come forward who has an ETHNIC Estonian wife?

I await the silence!

Estonia's population amount to a very small percentage of the FSU's. Maybe a half of 1%. One would have to look at 200 FSU marriages to find 1 Estonian marriage on average. Would it be fair if there are 10 announced marriages at this forum and 1 just happened to be Estonian related and I came to the conclusion 10% of all FSU marriages are to Estonians? No, therefore it's wrong to ask the small married membership here to speak up if they're married to an Estonian woman.

I need more than an argument that you and Andrew live and been there and know Estonian women aren't making themselves available for marriage to foreign men. I'm sure Russian women are leaving Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, and other FSU nations at a higher ratio than native women compared to total percentages of population but it is a FACT, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Uzbek, etc... women are making themselves available to foreign men too. I need more than your opinion of why Estonian women aren't doing the same. Are they too proud and like to keep the blood in the family? They don't have the same temptations of other women to seek a better life? No one Estonian women is attracted to men of a different race? Are they so different from all other women that they should be categorized in a whole new class of women who behave differently?

I could not search the dating sites and most agencies because of poor search engines with a lack of features but at Aprettywoman.com, there are 14 Estonian women, it is not required to say but 2 have mentioned in their profile they speak Estonian well. I'm sure more women at Apretty woman speak Estonian and if it is like other FSU countries, Russians living there aren't required to learn the native language. My Russian fiancee wasn't required to learn Uzbek and the USSR broke when she was 9YO. My ex-UW actually knows Russian better than Ukrainian. If a woman speaks fluent Estonian, it's safe to say there's a high chance she's authentic Estonian by blood. I'm trying to show you some evidence Manchestor to back my thoughts. I need to see some evidence from you. There's no way you can know what every authentic Estonian woman is doing when she's on a computer.

[PeeWee]

KenC


Sorry, but there is a huge difference between selling information and selling people.

Not in this context - a man pays - a girl moves country - thus the man pays, thus it is a transaction of sorts - I found this hard to swallow at first but you should accept the facts.


I await the silence!

I neither agree or disagree with your opinion, because I don't care who pays what or why they do it. I will point out that if I met a woman who is living in NY via Matchdoctor.com and I am living in LA and I pay for her move from one state to another state then I a making the same transaction that you are aluding to. If she lives in Portland, Ore and I in Salem and my grandma introduces me to her and I pay for her move from one county to another county then I am making the same transaction that you alude to. In otherwords no matter whom you meet or where she hails from most guys are going to man up and lay down the dollars to move her.

peevee

[chivo]

Manchester writes:"Irrespective of what Wilki says, Estonia today contains many Russians that are 'Estonian' on the figures. At EU Entry all the former grey passport holders were given an opportunity to stay and become Estonian - most did. Yet they still remain ethnic Russians.

Irrespective of the Estonian government removing all the hammer & sickles and taking away all the Cyrillic signs, (and pretending to be part of Scandinavia) Estonia remains predominantly Russian influenced. Russian is understood everywhere in Estonia, a fact proved my my most recent visit with my lady. English is understood yes indeed, but Russian more so".

Please read this carefully,

According to the Estonian Statistical Office[2], ethnic Russians comprised 25.7% of the population in 2006. Of that 25.7%, approximately 27% of ethnic Russians in Estonia hold Russian citizenship, 35% hold Estonian citizenship, and 35% continue to have undefined citizenship. Residents without citizenship may not vote in Riigikogu (the national parliament) or European Parliament elections, but are eligible to vote in local (municipal) elections under Estonian law.

Just so its not lost on such a brilliant mind like yours , I'll reiterate the point...OF THOSE 25.7%, 35% hold Estonian citizenship.


I have spent plenty of time in Estonia to know what I see. Maybe you need to get around more. Estonia, while it has Russians and therefore Russian influence, is hardly Russia. Matter of fact, I was surprise upon my very first visit to notice how different it was than Russia, and I "LIVE" in Moscow.

It stands to reason if you have a RW from Estonia that you will be dealing mostly with Russians in the area because most don't speak Estonian or English, and thats who you can communicate with. With 1/4 of the population it stands to reason there'll be a strong influence there, but not dominant.

again, read the history of the country. Even when the Russians invaded and occupied it, it, for the most part, was allowed to act independently under it own rules, albeit from an "underground" way.

Also, look at the surnames of the people who changed the reforms back to Estonian.  Mart Laar, Andres Tarand, Tiit Vähi, Mart Siimann, Siim Kallas, Juhan Parts, and Andrus Ansip. Hardly Russian sounding   

I have visited many places there where no one spoke Russian or English, just Estonian. You have to look no further than 'Old Town" the very heart of Tallinn to see and feel the scandinavian flavor. They're not trying to be this in order to throw out everything Russian and pretending they're something else...ITS THEIR HISTORY!!!

English will easily pass Russian in the near future as the second language there, and already has with the under 25 crowd. Try talking to anyone under 25yrs old there and tell me what the dominant language is...its Estonian, with English the second most common language. And no it doesn't mean that no young person speaks Russian there (i mean they have to be able to talk to their parents being that 1 out of every 4 is Russian). Now read about the language situation with regards to learning and teaching in say, Latvia, and you'll see a dintinct difference in the way the Russians communities in both countries deal with Russian and Russians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians especially read the part about Russians living outside Russia.

Look at the people and tell me if, for the most part, they don't look Scandinavian. Many of the beautiful women (the majority) walking around there look absolutely scandinavian. In the night clubs I visited, the women I talked to, or tried to talk to, spoke English or Estonian (mostly), and a few knew Russian.

Go to Brooklyn and see the Russian influence there, and believe me today its more noticeable there than Estonia. Places where no one, and I mean no one speaks English. Would you call Brooklyn Russia? Judging by your point of view, i think yes, then again, we see only what we want to. peace out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_Beach


chivo

[Manny]

According to the Estonian Statistical Office[2], ethnic Russians comprised 25.7% of the population in 2006. Of that 25.7%, approximately 27% of ethnic Russians in Estonia hold Russian citizenship, 35% hold Estonian citizenship, and 35% continue to have undefined citizenship. Residents without citizenship may not vote in Riigikogu (the national parliament) or European Parliament elections, but are eligible to vote in local (municipal) elections under Estonian law.

Just so its not lost on such a brilliant mind like yours , I'll reiterate the point...OF THOSE 25.7%, 35% hold Estonian citizenship.

Oh dear the Wiki boys are off again!

NOBODY has undefined citizenship in Estonia anymore. They joined the EU some time ago. Grey passports are not allowed now. Wait 2 years for Wiki to catch up.

KenC

I love how you quote my "I await the silence" comment out of context - let me remind you!

In short - anyone that has not spent significant time in Estonia cannot possibly comment. It has been a rapidly changing place from 1992 till now. This board has many members - let one come forward who has an ETHNIC Estonian wife?

I await the silence!


That is what I actually said. Dont quote me out of context. Have you been? No? How can you possibly comment? Talk about what you know about Ken eh? 

I would not suggest to await your silence Ken as I know it will never come, irrespective if you are informed on an issue or not. Also my comment about your pal Dan you took out of context and you know it. Maybe you prefer a pi$$ing match on here? Sorry old son - move it to PM eh?

Quote as much as you like but posting in continual bold does not make your words carry any more clout!

[KenC]

Manchester (you arrogant SOB),
Why don't you try debating the facts and the replies instead of crying like a little girl about being quoted out of context?  I answered your post, almost line by line and you have no rebuttal but to talk about form over substance?
Just for your silly little British ego, I did not quote your comment about Dan out of context.  I choose not to delve into you petty hurt girlie feelings regarding Dan putting you in your place.  As for your "silence" comment; as it is the ending of your entire post, I assumed you in your arrogance, would think I wouldn't have answers to your comments.  I have readily acknowledged that you and Andrew have more detailed information regarding Estonia proper, have you missed that?  But your derogatory comments were made about any woman involved with agencies, not just Estonian women.  You have done a very piss poor job of debating your ideas.  You have been unable to back any of your ludicrous statements with any form of logic or facts.  Don't take your frustration out on me.  Either be able to back your crap up or keep your mouth shut!.
KenC

[Manny]

Manchester (you arrogant SOB),
Why don't you try debating the facts and the replies instead of crying like a little girl about being quoted out of context? 

Now we see what you are made of Ken - carry on!

Just for your silly little British ego, 

Hmmmm, I have been warned for less, Racism Ken?

I have readily acknowledged that you and Andrew have more detailed information regarding Estonia proper, have you missed that? 

Yes I must have missed that in all your bold and red type and many quotations - You accept something then eh?

You have done a very piss poor job of debating your ideas. 

I welcome your board friendly banter and friendly exchange of opinion. Just remind me Ken, how many times did you visit Estonia?

You have been unable to back any of your ludicrous statements with any form of logic or facts. 

Fully backed up Ken old son - just read. (Sorry its not in bold) 

Don't take your frustration out on me.  Either be able to back your crap up or keep your mouth shut!

Again, another well thought out exchange of ideas and opinion. As stated earlier, red and bold type do not pick your opinions out to have more credence than any other. You need to relax Ken and dont get too excited. Its only an internet forum.

Accept the fact that peoples opinions may differ and offer your fellow poster some respect eh?

[Vaughn]

Manchester,

  Hilarious. Now you resort to taking humorous issue with
KenC's bold-face in your cavalier fashion. Try dispensing
with the arrogance and you might just get some respect.

[PeeWee]

You guys are straying off topic. I may as well begin my discussion with Turbodude about NFL football. Estonia and their third world citizenship was the question at hand. Are they Russian or are they Scandinavian? I think that I would like to visit Estonia some day.

Peevee

[Manny]

I recommend a visit. It is a nice place. Of course they are not Scandinavian just they pretend to be. Most people speak Russian, the rest will speak English. It is a nice EU place that feels like a buffer between the EU and Russia. My Russian lady feels quite at home there and can speak Russian anywhere - that is not Wiki or uninformed opinion, it is fact as of a few weeks ago!

If you want a cheap apartment there PM me! 

Vaughn,

I have to be careful how I handle Ken on here, despite me having respect for the guy (rapidly diminishing) and the fact that we have a few pals in common, he insists on pursuing anything I say (his subject matter experience does not matter) until he has the last word - which is often by virtue of him having more free time than me rather than him being right. He knows my lady only arrived here recently and is taking advantage of my lack of time. I dont have the patience/time to pull everything he says to bits like I could and when he is pi$$ed he just gets Dan to jump on me so it is hard for me to be totally frank with him here. He refrains from posting these issues elsewhere as he knows he does not have the board protection elsewhere.

KenC is heading for the ignore button!  - There is more to life!

[Jooky]

let one come forward who has an ETHNIC Estonian wife?

Ethnic Estonian? No way. This is Russian women discussion. I'll pass on the Scandinavians.

Marriage agencies want to profit. If I was to open a marriage agency, would I do so in Estonia? Hmmm...

1. Most Americans have never even heard of Estonia, think it's an island in the South Pacific, or maybe a war torn terrorist ridden country on the Black Sea. Now Russia, everyone knows, and I'd heard talk of the beauties of Kiev and Odessa long before I was even aware of Estonia. Estonia attracts less foreigners than Russia and Ukraine. Duh.

2. Estonia is a part of Europe. If an Estonian woman wants to meet a foreigner, she can just go to a foreign country with much less hurdles that your average Russian or Ukrainian woman. Less hurdles means less of a reason for a full service marriage agency.

3. Estonia arguably does have a better economy in general than Russia or Ukraine. One of the advantages an agency offers to poor women is free photos, translations and internet services. If a woman interested in foreign men can afford these services on her own she doesn't need an agency. She has a better chance of meeting decent men by slapping up an internet profile from her home computer. She can do so on free personals, bride.ru, lucky lovers or a similar dating site which caters to foreigners. Per Capita there are more Estonian women than Russian women on all three of these sites, so yes there are Estonian women willing to meet and marry a foreigner. They just don't need a full service agency.

4. Estonia is a tiny country. The largest city has a population of what, 450 thousand? There are over 30 Russian cities larger than that. Instead of comparing Estonia to Russia, why not compare it to a similar sized Russian city and it's surrounding oblast. How about Magnitogorsk? Anyone's wife here from Magnitogorsk? Bryansk? Kemerovo? Hello, anybody there?

It's a bunch of nonsense to argue about all this really. There are many reasons why there would be less official 'marriage agencies' in a tiny country like Estonia. All factors need to be taken into account. It's scientific method. Even so, a quick google run reveals that there are marriage agencies that operate in Estonia (just type in Estonian brides), so the experts here are feeding us a load of bull.

Back to demographics, in that magical 15-65 age range there are 40,000 more women than men in Estonia. 40 thousand! No wonder Andrew can't settle down. Go get 'em boys!