RW Demographics

[Jooky]

Could someone clarify for me what the 'dirty barrel' is?

Andrew states that agencies are the dirty barrel, but then the theory seems to apply to all us men out here and the women we pursue. Manchester says all of Russia is the dirty barrel, right?

Personally I never used a full service marriage agency. Does that mean that I've avoided sticking my arm in the dirty barrel? What about the majority of guys I've met from these boards that have used only major dating sites or ICQ to meet women?

I do agree that there are plenty of rotten agencies and conniving women out there to be avoided. Helping guys avoid to avoid these, not arguing about theories, should be our unified goal.

(Although I admit, it's fun to argue.)

[KenC]

Jooky,
Andrew and Manchester have made outlandish and derogatory claims about all fsu women and all AM nvolved with marriage agencies and only now zeros in on his knowledge of Estonia as some sort of proof.  Manchester cannot debate the facts, hell he cannot even identify the facts to debate so he would rather talk about my bold type (which the moron cannot even see I have quite using) or that Dan is picking on him.
KenC

[KenC]

Could someone clarify for me what the 'dirty barrel' is?

Andrew states that agencies are the dirty barrel, but then the theory seems to apply to all us men out here and the women we pursue. Manchester says all of Russia is the dirty barrel, right?

Personally I never used a full service marriage agency. Does that mean that I've avoided sticking my arm in the dirty barrel? What about the majority of guys I've met from these boards that have used only major dating sites or ICQ to meet women?

I do agree that there are plenty of rotten agencies and conniving women out there to be avoided. Helping guys avoid to avoid these, not arguing about theories, should be our unified goal.

(Although I admit, it's fun to argue.)

Jooky,
To help you catch up here are Andrew's and Manchester's claims:
All women and men involved with agencies are rejects.
All women that are involved with agencies come from a "dirty barrel"
All men involved with agencies (except for the most lucky) get dirt on themselves from the said "dirty barrel."
All women involved with agencies are selling themselves to AM
KenC

[PeeWee]

Jooky,
To help you catch up here are Andrew's and Manchester's claims:
All women and men involved with agencies are rejects.
All women that are involved with agencies come from a "dirty barrel"
All me involved with agencies (except for the most lucky) get dirt on themselves from the said "dirty barrel."
All women invoved with agencies are selling themselves to AM
KenC

I could not disagree more. The tag "all" is what I disagree with. Some may be but not all. It makes no sense.

Peevee

[BillyB]

Found a couple of sites that lists women's last names. I found these possible Estonian surnames.

Leis
Edemiller
Aronia
Golman
Mitnik
Kara
Koryus
Weber
Wilde
Mertins
Angelskiss
Jurgens
Sillat
Raa
Brantsevits
Pulk
and others...

It's safe to say besides Russian women, authentic Estonian women ARE putting themselves up for foreign marriages.

http://www.2-brides.com/result/4

http://www.e-russian-brides.net/cgi-bin/search?country=12&perriod=all&lang=eng&action=SR&page=1

[chivo]

I recommend a visit. It is a nice place. Of course they are not Scandinavian just they pretend to be. Most people speak Russian, the rest will speak English. It is a nice EU place that feels like a buffer between the EU and Russia. My Russian lady feels quite at home there and can speak Russian anywhere - that is not Wiki or uninformed opinion, it is fact as of a few weeks ago!

If you want a cheap apartment there PM me! 

Vaughn,

I have to be careful how I handle Ken on here, despite me having respect for the guy (rapidly diminishing) and the fact that we have a few pals in common, he insists on pursuing anything I say (his subject matter experience does not matter) until he has the last word - which is often by virtue of him having more free time than me rather than him being right. He knows my lady only arrived here recently and is taking advantage of my lack of time. I don't have the patience/time to pull everything he says to bits like I could and when he is pi$$ed he just gets Dan to jump on me so it is hard for me to be totally frank with him here. He refrains from posting these issues elsewhere as he knows he does not have the board protection elsewhere.

KenC is heading for the ignore button!  - There is more to life!

Well at least you're right about something, there is more to life than arguing with your pompous ass.

just so you know, I've been there 6 times, the last being a few months ago (i guess you miss that part of my post). It gets more boring each time, but unfortunately I have to go. Outside of the women there, who look and seem much more Scandinavian than Russian, there's not much else there. Yes Russian women are there too, just not in the same quantity.

It is a quaint little village. I walk around and mingle with the crowds. for better or worse, at this time, i deal with what comes my way. i know the place well enough now that i can negotiate it on my own for the most part, and yes it reminds me of a Scandinavian country more so than Russia. Again, I live in Russia, so at least I "think" I can make a comparasion between the two. Believe me, its noticeably different, but yes their are some similarities.

i don't know, but with all due respect ill stick with the Wiki guys over you. if I'm not mistaken their findings were from 2006, at least thats the year that is mentioned.

yes we can have our opinions. i don't need you or anyone else to tell me about Estonia other than where a certain place may be. I now have a few Estonian acquaintances (who speak English and Estonian but no Russian, or very little) who can tell me all about it.

people who were born there, raised there, who I talk to on the internet 3-4 times a week, and this is just a guess , they know more about it than you. Women whose names are Pila, Martise, Siegrid, etc. (those little bitches, i know their names are Olga, Natasha, and Svetlana, and they're Russians just pretending to be something else).

another 2006 link to the population. notice, if you can pull your head out of your ass long enough, what the official language is. no one here claims they're no Russians there or that it isn't spoken. Seems pretty consistant with Wiki. Oh wait, they're both wrong, I'll just believe you . And please don't tell me now that in the last 2 years or so there has been a mass exodus of Russians wanting to live in Estonia.
http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/estonia/estonia_people.html

The only stats i have with the 25 and under crowd talking English is speaking to them. most know English more so than Russian, but ok, its just my little poll of talking to maybe 40-50 of them, but i get a sense that its more than just a coincidence. Just so you know, i speak easily enough Russian now to deal with that segment too.

Jooky,

it isn't all that fun to argue, especially with people who only see things one way. Ideally we should be here to help, but unfortunately the ego gets in the way. Try as I might to avoid this crap, sometimes you just have to jump in.

When people make claims about people they don't know, when in many cases, all things considered, they're worse off than the people they talk about, then...well here i am, I'll jump in.

But yes, if i can help I will, and you might notice that I don't post that much. Mainly its because of this, listening and reading about people trying to prove something about something.

mostly its childish BS such as "look at me, Ive been there so I'm better than you" or "you're a reject loser who can't get women so you come to the FSU, but I'm doing the same thing, but I'm different, you're the loser", or something along those lines.

mostly I'll just let the experts do the arguing. to quote someone else here, I'll just wrap up my last post on this subject with this "what do i know, i just live here". peace out.

chivo

[Mod2]

Gentlemen:

The value of this thread is dwindling rapidly. 

FYI there are provisions in most wiki references to contest or dispute information posted.  I suggest thiese tools be used instead of unproductive tonguelashings among the limited pool of expertise present here.

Continued use of vulgar terms to address each other will lead to closure of this thread and/or other mod actions without further notice or warning.

[prince_alfie]

Manchester, please stop being so denigrating and supercilious to everyone else. Spasiba.

[Manny]

Jooky,
To help you catch up here are Andrew's and Manchester's claims:
All women and men involved with agencies are rejects.
All women that are involved with agencies come from a "dirty barrel"
All men involved with agencies (except for the most lucky) get dirt on themselves from the said "dirty barrel."
All women involved with agencies are selling themselves to AM
KenC

Alfie - dont be clever - your FSU experience is zero!

KenC

To correct you once more............

All women and men involved with agencies are rejects. - Wrong, the word is MANY! - I met my fiancee through an agency.

All women that are involved with agencies come from a "dirty barrel" - Again the word is MANY! (not all!)

All men involved with agencies (except for the most lucky) get dirt on themselves from the said "dirty barrel." - Read again MANY and SOME! - Do you imagine the MOB business is a clean business inhabited by upright erstwhile pillar of the comunity agency owners who only want the best for their clients and host profiles of ladies of 100% repute? No scammers/hookers/pro-daters? - Wake up Ken old son, the good decent girls are a tiny minority as we all know. Why deny it? You and I found good girls but we were lucky!

All women involved with agencies are selling themselves to AM- That is arguably correct to some extent, the best explanation I have seen of this theory is by the eloquent Andrewfi(n) on another board that TOS here prevents me from linking to.

Mod 2 - If you want to increase the value of the thread warn the old timers that their racism and personal insults are against TOS (shall I quote from Ken & TOS?)

Jooky (& anyone else) - For the definitive "dirty barrel" theory and the grounds as to why this affair is essentially a transaction, I refer you back to the original author of the now famous theory (Andrewfi(n) who can articulate it much better than I.

And for the benefit of the voiceiferous KenC who imagines my experience is limited to Estonia, note my fiancee (now in UK) is from Russia and I have travelled to Russia extensively and the Baltics and Eastern Europe. - Ken, I have said before, back your claims up with experience, travel and educated opinion that is not 7 years out of date like I do. 

[PeeWee]

Alfie - dont be clever - your FSU experience is zero!

KenC

To correct you once more............

All women and men involved with agencies are rejects. - Wrong, the word is MANY! - I met my fiancee through an agency.

All women that are involved with agencies come from a "dirty barrel" - Again the word is MANY! (not all!)

All men involved with agencies (except for the most lucky) get dirt on themselves from the said "dirty barrel." - Read again MANY and SOME! - Do you imagine the MOB business is a clean business inhabited by upright erstwhile pillar of the comunity agency owners who only want the best for their clients and host profiles of ladies of 100% repute? No scammers/hookers/pro-daters? - Wake up Ken old son, the good decent girls are a tiny minority as we all know. Why deny it? You and I found good girls but we were lucky!

All women involved with agencies are selling themselves to AM- That is arguably correct to some extent, the best explanation I have seen of this theory is by the eloquent Andrewfi(n) on another board that TOS here prevents me from linking to.

If assigned to a statistic would it be fair to say that "all" would equate to 100%, "many" would equate to more than 50%, and that "some" would equate to less than 50%? I understand numerical relationship better than I do abstracts.

100% of all MOB women and men clients are not rejects or loosers. 100% of all men who solicit MOB women will not get "dirt" on them as a result of their solicitation. 100% of all women who profile with an MOB agency are not from the "dirty barrel". I will agree with that.

Are you suggesting then that more than 50% or that less than 50% fall into these classes? Does anyone have a hard statstic or are we just throwing out suppostions?  I have an idea that I could go to any police department in the world and find the same statistics with regard to the quality and moral fiber of the officers employed by those departments.

What does this all prove? Nothing, really. Other than you are going to find a little good and and a little bad no matter where you look no matter where you go no matter what you do. Be smart...be aware of and then avoid the potential traps.

Peewee 

[Manny]

What does this all prove? Nothing, really. Other than you are going to find a little good and and a little bad no matter where you look no matter where you go no matter what you do. Be smart...be aware of and then avoid the potential traps.

A fair summary Peewee! 

I was just trying to correct my many mis quotes by Mr Bold/Red (who has stopped doing it!)

Shall we move on in a non bold and red way?

[Vaughn]

PeeWee,

  Exactly - it means nothing. According to the "now-famous"
theory, I, in desperation, approached a foreign-facing agency
full of rejects, and completed a mere transaction. It's a comfortable
view for some, let 'em have their day.

  Personally, I don't give a rat's a$$ how they see it. When my wife's insulted, I speak up. When theirs is, they philosophize as
if to say, "it's not far off the mark." To each his own.

[PeeWee]

PeeWee,

  Exactly - it means nothing. According to the "now-famous"
theory, I, in desperation, approached a foreign-facing agency
full of rejects, and completed a mere transaction. It's a comfortable
view for some, let 'em have their day.

  Personally, I don't give a rat's a$$ how they see it. When my wife's insulted, I speak up. When theirs is, they philosophize as
if to say, "it's not far off the mark." To each his own.

I'd speak up as well. I met my current lady, a real sweetheart, via Elene's Models. She contacted me. Prior the RW that I commincated with for 2  years came to me via the forum for FSU that is the counterpart of this forum. A poster's friend. Prior to that the RW of 3 years dating I found on the AFA mega data base. All of those three methods have produced some very high quality ladies for me. I have no arguement of complaint.

Peevee

[Admin]

I have to be careful how I handle Ken on here, despite me having respect for the guy (rapidly diminishing) and the fact that we have a few pals in common, he insists on pursuing anything I say (his subject matter experience does not matter) until he has the last word - which is often by virtue of him having more free time than me rather than him being right. He knows my lady only arrived here recently and is taking advantage of my lack of time. I dont have the patience/time to pull everything he says to bits like I could and when he is pi$$ed he just gets Dan to jump on me so it is hard for me to be totally frank with him here. He refrains from posting these issues elsewhere as he knows he does not have the board protection elsewhere.

KenC is heading for the ignore button!  - There is more to life!

Manchester,

Nobody, not even Ken (whom I hold in enormous regard), "gets" me to do much of anything. I make my own choices, sometimes based on quality input from trusted advisers and colleagues, but they remain MY choices and decisions.

In your case, I assure you that no-one needs to prompt me to keep a close eye on your posts - as should be evidenced by your graduation to "Warned" status following your latest misadventure with implying someone has pedophilic tendencies. You need to learn to control your impulses to write whatever it is that comes to mind.

- Dan

[BillyB]

  Exactly - it means nothing. According to the "now-famous"
theory, I, in desperation, approached a foreign-facing agency
full of rejects, and completed a mere transaction.

Don't forget Vaughn, you're also being accused of MEE(Maximum Economic Exploitation). Doesn't make sense when all you have to choose from is rejects. There's no way to get Maximum Economic Value for your dollar when the best women stay home such as authentic Estonian women.

[Admin]

All women involved with agencies are selling themselves to AM- That is arguably correct to some extent, the best explanation I have seen of this theory is by the eloquent Andrewfi(n) on another board that TOS here prevents me from linking to.

Mod 2 - If you want to increase the value of the thread warn the old timers that their racism and personal insults are against TOS (shall I quote from Ken & TOS?)

Jooky (& anyone else) - For the definitive "dirty barrel" theory and the grounds as to why this affair is essentially a transaction, I refer you back to the original author of the now famous theory (Andrewfi(n) who can articulate it much better than I.

And for the benefit of the voiceiferous KenC who imagines my experience is limited to Estonia, note my fiancee (now in UK) is from Russia and I have travelled to Russia extensively and the Baltics and Eastern Europe. - Ken, I have said before, back your claims up with experience, travel and educated opinion that is not 7 years out of date like I do. 

Manny, you reference Andrew's posts with some apparent regard. Rather than whine about the "TOS here" - just take the initiative and invite Andrew to post his thoughts here.

Andrew has been a contributing member here at RWD since inception - and even participated in the small group of guys who helped out when we transitioned to the current software and host some months back. He is well-known here, and if you ask him real nice, I imagine he might be inspired to post his thoughts on the topics you reference. In that way, your concern about the "TOS here" is obviated altogether.

- Dan

[Michelangelo]

Those who make such "absolute statements" (All women involved with agencies are selling themselves to AM) about foreign brides are missing the boat.  And their statements are inaccurate and misleading.  If they want to use terms like "majority," then fine.

Lots of guys here have found wonderful spouses in the FSU.  And these guys are not "rejects," but successful business men.  And their girls are not "rejects" either.  And they are certainly not "selling themselves."

In my case, yes, I did meet my fiance via an agency.  She signed up because a friend married an American and was very happy. So she tried it too.

Guys, you can find wonderful girls in the FSU, via agencies and by simply going and meeting girls there. The road is fraught with landminds and danger, and only the determined and lucky succeed.  But it is possible to find a beautiful and wholesome girl in the FSU. 

Many here have done just that.

[KenC]

KenC

To correct you once more............

All women and men involved with agencies are rejects. - Wrong, the word is MANY! - I met my fiancee through an agency.

Actually, the word Andrew used was "any" which means "all" in English on this side of the Atlantic.

All women that are involved with agencies come from a "dirty barrel" - Again the word is MANY! (not all!)

Sorry, but you seem to have difficulty understanding the theory you support here.  The "dirty barrel" is painted with a very wide brush to include "any" marriage agency.  Therefore "any" or "all" women who choose to join an agency comes from the said "dirty barrel."

[

i]All men involved with agencies (except for the most lucky) get dirt on themselves from the said "dirty barrel."[/i] - Read again MANY and SOME!

Do you ever tire of being wrong?  Have you even read what Andrew posted?  Maybe you should before you jump on his bandwagon.  Andrew said "most" men will get dirty from reaching into this "dirty barrel" except for a very "few" extremely lucky guys.

-

Do you imagine the MOB business is a clean business inhabited by upright erstwhile pillar of the comunity agency owners who only want the best for their clients and host profiles of ladies of 100% repute? No scammers/hookers/pro-daters? - Wake up Ken old son, the good decent girls are a tiny minority as we all know. Why deny it? You and I found good girls but we were lucky!

Actually, I dealt with LTP and I would say that they were very honest and very sincere in their efforts.  But before you try to turn my statements into an absolute, I never said or even suggested that 100% of the girls listed at any agency are decent girls.  I have always maintained that there will be a percentage of bad women listed with good agencies as there also will be some persentage of good women listed with bad agencies.  What the percentages are, is a matter of opinion and subject to debate.

All women involved with agencies are selling themselves to AM- That is arguably correct to some extent, the best explanation I have seen of this theory is by the eloquent Andrewfi(n) on another board that TOS here prevents me from linking to.

It certainly is a pity that you do not possess the ability to argue your own opinions or back up your own ludicrous statements.  I will for your benefit restate my opinion (again) and maybe you can muster the words to reply:
I see little difference between a woman listing herself in an agency to a woman that listed herself on the many dating sites.  It is just another avenue to possibly meet a good match.  Not all the women that use an agency are desperate to leave their country, but merely are open to meet foreign men and entertain the possibility of relocating.  After the women provide a profile and some photos they really have nothing to do with the marketing of the agencies directed at foreign men.

And for the benefit of the voiceiferous KenC who imagines my experience is limited to Estonia, note my fiancee (now in UK) is from Russia and I have travelled to Russia extensively and the Baltics and Eastern Europe. - Ken, I have said before, back your claims up with experience, travel and educated opinion that is not 7 years out of date like I do. 

You really do need to get your facts straight before you post here.  First you accuse me of not acknowledging your experience in Estonia (which I did) and now you make the false accusation that I suggested that your experience is limited to only Estonia (which I did not).  You may have confused a post in which I questioned Andrew's experience with women from agencies, but I don't know, because you seem to be confused most of the time.

Now, before you make a federal case out of my bold type like you tend to do (better to direct the attention there for your lack of answers or substance), let me say that I think it is easier to follow responses to quotes with a different type style.  Please try to deal with it and not let it ruin your whole day.
KenC

[Manny]

Please try to deal with it and not let it ruin your whole day.
KenC

I suggest you take your own advice there Ken.

I will for your benefit restate my opinion (again)

Do you ever do anything else Ken?

My opinions do not exactly duplicate Andrews, they are merely similar. Note, I inserted the word MANY instead of all.

Please do not try to educate me in English usage Ken, we invented it remember?

Dan - Andrew has posted his thoughts here but they get drowned out by Mr Bold Type. Thankyou for your suggestion to invite him here once again, quite obvious. BTW - I fail to see why an issue you dealt with by PM that arose in another thread you saw fit to pontificate about here? You wouldnt be "jumping on me" again would you in order to discredit me and protect your pal who you "hold in enormous regard"? No of course not.

BTW -my comment about the TOS was not a "whine" as you assert, they merely prevented me from quoting from and/or linking to alternative media, and I expained that.

Also as regard your further comments about Andrew "He is well-known here, and if you ask him real nice, I imagine he might be inspired to post his thoughts on the topics you reference." - I am well aware of all of that, in fact we have met, crawling would not be necessary.

Curious to note that when I reported one of Kens posts about me as insulting and racist I got no reply. Maybe you need to be a pal?

On account of this no longer being a fair debate, I shall withdraw from it.

Good evening.

[KenC]

Manchester,
You are absolutely right!  I should have never used the word "British" to describe your runaway ego, it just isn't fair to lump all the good people from G.B. with the likes of you.  I hope the other fine members from G.B. will accept my apologies.
KenC

[Manny]

Gentlemen:

The value of this thread is dwindling rapidly. 

Continued use of vulgar terms to address each other will lead to closure of this thread and/or other mod actions without further notice or warning.

Ken - Give it a rest eh? Ever heard of "agree to differ"? I will not respond to your sarcastic comments on here as we have proved above it is a bias media in your favour.

Continue insulting me all you like! 

[BillyB]

Manchester,

You're withdrawing from the debate already? You haven't debated me much. I take it you accept my proof that authentic Estonian women are listed at agencies.

On a different note I want you to reflect on the person you were two months ago. When you first showed up elsewhere, I did not take much notice in you until you quarreled with Andrew in the Archives. Remember that? I do because that is when I first took notice of your strong opinions. I will list some of your thoughts without a word for word transfer so it doesn't affect copyrights but the meaning remains the same.

Andrew is being critical of people he has never met (and chooses not to)

Andrewfi you should talk in general terms and qualify that with backup if you have knowledge and opinions.

 I dislike that term MOB as it has no relation to reality.  meeting someone over the internet, people think nothing now of doing that at home, why should a Russian girl be any different.

Buy? Desperate? I dont think so since I'm no second rate male pal!

All talk of dirty barrels is distasteful.

Not all FSU women are gold diggers, passport seeking scheming bitches who seek to use a man - many girls just want happiness, love and security just like most everyone in life!

There much temptation amongst the uneducated to lump all the "foreign brides" in one pot!

Andrew, selective reading and faulty recollection seem to be your agenda,

My observations about Estonia are quite accurate Andrew, I have been many times (pre & post EU) and have many friends there.

Are we all agreed that if we have courage of our convictions and done enough homework and are happy with our decisions that there is no point paying heed the the comments of the inexperienced?

I don't to see the similarity between these women and hookers?

I fail to see how my woman could be described as selling herself?

Andrew, we're trawling the same old pearl in the mud, dirty barrel and women selling themselves argument that you have chosen to drag across many threads........we'll never agree


I guess you do agree. Manchester, two months ago you were the same man as the men you're currently debating/arguing with. What's up with that?  ??? If you need a link to the thread elsewhere to refresh your memory, ask and I shall send it to you by PM.

[PeeWee]

Billy, I thought he was debating with KB? He still seems to disagree with Andrew to some extent. I disagree with Andrew as does Ken. Mostly over the generalization of him using the word "all". It seems that Manny thinks the same as well. Maybe Manny just likes to debate a point or two? This thread has confused me a couple of times but it seems that no one agrees with Andrew. I might be wrong.

Peewee

[Mod2]

Quote from: Mod2

Gentlemen:

The value of this thread is dwindling rapidly.

Continued use of vulgar terms to address each other will lead to closure of this thread and/or other mod actions without further notice or warning.

Quote from: Manchester

Ken - Give it a rest eh? Ever heard of "agree to differ"? I will not respond to your sarcastic comments on here as we have proved above it is a bias media in your favour.

Continue insulting me all you like!  Grin

The post was directed towards all posters, as a reminder that a virtual beltline does exist.

[Manny]

Billy

You raise good points - points I would like to clarify.

When Andrew first spoke of the "dirty barrel" elsewhere I too was wearing rose coloured glasses and biased from my own relatively trouble free experiences. A long and drawn out debate followed on the other board and PM and it concluded with me offering to remonstrate with him personally when I was next in Estonia, I offered him said opportunity and offered him also the opportunity to explain to my lady why exactly he thought an educated university teacher qualified as from the afore mentioned barrel.

I then looked back on Andrews posts here and there, I tried to look at them objectively and found that although he used such direct language in such a well written way (you gotta admit that) the thrust of his argument was generally correct (however hard it may be to grasp for us who have a RW and however we choose to rephrase it) I dont always agree with Andrews terminology but the thrust of his arguments on the dirty barrel are largely and often correct.

I started to read more into horrifying experiences other men had experienced on these boards, I read about the many scams, and the general behaviour of some women. (and men come to that) I began to think myself lucky that I had weeded out the dross early on in my quest (pre forum knowledge - just common sense) and found a nice and genuine girl.

I then modified my invite to Andrew while my lady and I was in his hometown in Estonia to something more civilised. I had read his musings and deduced here was an educated man whose opinion may be worth listening to. Certainly an interesting guy to meet. My lady and I subsequently met Andrew and although we never got around to the basics of the dirty barrel conversation, I came away with the opinion that Andrew is a nice educated and very clever guy and he has my total respect. I hope to meet him again.

I have offered the olive branch to KenC on many occasions. I once used Ken's pic to demonstrate a point about age difference elsewhere as you probably know, as a result of that all hell broke loose and I was banned from here and took a lot of flak from many members here and elsewhere. (KenC is well liked) I later apologised to KenC by PM and we exchanged a few PM's and I came away with the feeling that he is an OK guy and we had put it behind us. Recently he seems to have become personal and insulting and quite off topic on this subject.

Yes in the past I was very anti Andrewfi(n)/dirty barrel, but my opinion changed. When I discussed this with my lady, she agreed that much of the MOB subject is a dirty barrel inhabited by less than scrupulous women and old men who wanted something unrealistic and money played an large factor in that situation indeed. She went on to comment (after reading some of Andrews posts) that there is an element of truth in the dirty barrel theory and he was both largely correct (even if somewhat cynical) and a good writer.

I do not and never have asserted that all women are from the dirty barrel, nor have I suggested that all agencies are corrupt. Nor am I critical of women who place themselves in foreign facing agancies. I believe that it remains a fact that when a woman places herself in a foreign facing agency that she chooses to a) live abroad, and b) then choose her country, when she then corresponds with men she has made her default preferences then and the man is instrumental to her goals. That said, it does not mean the man is always a stooge, she may reject 50 men before she chooses the one for, that differentiates a GCH from a decent girl I think.

As I said recently, if you decided you wanted to live in Norway for example, and a Norwegian woman could assist to make that happen, would you seek out a Norwegian woman to start a relationship with? Quite probably. Would your relationship be genuine? Maybe. Would you love her? Maybe. The fact that you had chosen Norway and/or a Norwegian woman would not be the point of your relationship would it? The word is MAYBE - Maybe despite wanting to live in Norway you would find a good/decent/sexy woman who you sparked up a relationship with. The fact that she is Norwegian is handy indeed but it does not reduce the value of your relationship if it is genuine.

Now lets suggest that she paid an agency to meet you, she would have paid for her introduction, bottom line is that she would have paid cash and then met you. That is akin to a purchase. Not in the truest sense of the word indeed as YOU didnt get paid - but the fact remains that she paid................ then she met you. That I believe is teh thrust of Andrews "purchase" theories - techincally correct but not as we understand it.

I will happily debate you on the subject as there as yet have been nobody come forward to say "Yes I married an Ethnic (or any other) Estonian girl". Wiki is out of date in many respects, not least the grey passport/non national issue. Estonia is now EU, there are NO residents there with undefined nationality.

Estonia has been a tiger economy of late. Walk the streets and you will see hundreds of beautiful girls. Are they intersted in a foreigner? - hmm. Estonia now gets cheap English Stag nights and other losers flying in on £99 ($180) flights from UK & Europe. These girls think of foreign men as uncouth and common tourists. Why would they clamour to meet one? As EU citizens they can live/travel/work within the EU (inc England) freely, they dont need a man to help, they can book a £99 flight and go anywhere by themselves.

Billy (assuming you are the same BillyB who is Einstein (avatar) elsewhere), start this thread elsewhere and I will debate it until the cows come home. On here I am on "warning" (you will see next to my avatar) and my withdrawl is because of political factors here rather than the subject matter. Yes I was a different person a few months ago, I dont deny it, but we all change and that helps us grow personally.

I love a good debate and exchange of opinion but I refuse to be censored and on here I feel I do not get a fair hearing and I cant speak freely.