RW Demographics

[KenC]

Manchester,
It wasn't until your most recent post (reply #143) that you acknowledge that your version of the "dirt barrel" theory is different from Andrew's.  The difference between "any" or "all" to "many" or "most" is significant indeed.  I might even agree with some points under that language if we could have a decent recourse.  But you never made your different version clear here ever before. Previously you have only referred to "Andrew's" version, to which I and many others take great exception.

Recently he seems to have become personal and insulting and quite off topic on this subject.

   I am sorry, but it is you fine sir that set the tone for sarcasm.  I just responded in kind.

I love a good debate and exchange of opinion but I refuse to be censored and on here I feel I do not get a fair hearing and I cant speak freely.

Nobody is censoring you here in this thread and you are on "warning" for suggesting that a member here is a pedophile.  (That is a huge transgression and I would have banned you, if it were my call)  So please don't use that excuse as it only makes you look silly.  You have been offered the ability to use this fine forum in an equal fashion as any other member.
KenC

[BillyB]

When Andrew first spoke of the "dirty barrel" elsewhere I too was wearing rose coloured glasses and biased from my own relatively trouble free experiences.

I then looked back on Andrews posts here and there, I tried to look at them objectively and found that although he used such direct language in such a well written way (you gotta admit that) the thrust of his argument was generally correct (however hard it may be to grasp for us who have a RW and however we choose to rephrase it) I dont always agree with Andrews terminology but the thrust of his arguments on the dirty barrel are largely and often correct.

Yes in the past I was very anti Andrewfi(n)/dirty barrel, but my opinion changed.

Manchester,

 I knew you changed you mind otherwise I'd call you a hypocrite earlier. I know you've met Andrew and etc..., you don't have to explaing the turn of events, I watched(read) it happening in you. Now, while you keep telling us that Andrew's argument is powerful and hard to deny, you fail to realize many of the guys here have been around much longer than you and still, after all those years, they haven't bought into Andrew's ideas on these issues as you have done in 2 months. Certainly, most the guys here don't have rose colored glasses on. You went from a blind, hopeless romantic to being cynical when realistically you should be somewhere in the middle. At least that's where most mentally healthy people are and based on your previous statements, where you once believed people should be.

While you keep offering an "experienced" opinion of why authentic Estonian women don't want to be listed at marriage agencies, I have showed you two agencies that list Estonian women's surnames and clearly, they aren't Russian surnames. Why hasn't that changed your mind? That's clear evidence that authentic Estonian women will soon be getting married to foreign men, especially since they are the cream of the crop. You don't need any men here to announce they are married to one.

Have you thought about why Andrew hasn't come back to help you? Maybe he's laid all his argument on the table and he's got nothing left? Maybe he knows the guys here aren't going to buy it based on his previous debating with them and it's senseless to waste more of his time? I know you think you've discovered new thoughts about the international marriage scene and are anxious to spread the word but we've heard it before and you would need to come up with hard evidence to make us change our minds otherwise you are repeating what we've heard over and over again. Elvis is dead, give us current news please.

You mentioned you don't get a fair hearing and can't speak freely. To be honest Manchester, besides talking about your beliefs, you do work some of the guys up with additional and unnecessary remarks. When you mature and hone your debating skills, you'll learn to leave your emotions out of a debate. For your benefit, your feelings will hurt less or not at all and best of all, you'll gain respect for leaving personal attacks/insults out of a debate though you're being attacked. Personally I like to debate guys that bring a good argument to the table instead of the rubbish clueless newbies, the emotionally unstable, and pushovers bring.

And yes, I'm BillyB with an Einstein avatar elsewhere but I will not start another thread or debate on this issue elsewhere. Keep in mind, it's ashame if a man with superior debating skills wins a debate over a man who provides his ideas with substance. I've been seeing that a lot elsewhere where newbies, with a solid argument can't win a debate since they have little debating skills and fail get their point across.

[Turboguy]

Just a quick comment on Racism.   I have seen a lot of posts that almost imply the FSU women almost never see ethic minorities.   I am in Kharov right now in an internet cafe with a black guy to the right of me and an arab looking guy to my left and every trip I see more and more people that I most would call minorites.   I think those who think it is rare have not been paying attenion.  I am not saying that the people I see in Kiev look like the ones in inner city Baltimore but compared to my first trip a decade ago it is changing. 

[Manny]

I think that is generally assumed of Russian women rather than Ukrainian ones.

With regards to the former debate above - I shall await Andrews clarification of the theory prior to continuing.

[catzenmouse]

It also has a lot to do with "where" in the FSU you are. I'm sure that in North Central Siberia they don't see many different ethnic varities but in Southern Ukraine there is a lot more chance to see a larger mix. It all comes down to perspective.

Ken

[andrewfi]

Hmmm....

I am flattered to have been the cause of some much heated discussion. But, at the same time disappointed that so many who, nominally at least, have English as a first language either can not read, or can not understand words written.

Even a cursory glance at what I have written over the years could not lead anyone with more than a passing ability in the reading department to the conclusions that Ken, Vaughn and others whose names escape me have managed to draw. It is pointless to restate here the case I have, consistently and with evidential justification, made over the years. However Ken, when you so badly misread/remember/understand what I write that you think I have ever suggested ALL Russian women are bad, then frankly I know there is no point in my joining you at the kiddy table for a chat. We simply do not think or comprehend on the same level. Sorry, there it is. No point.
Sadly, Manchester is probably drawing the same conclusion. He will, I am sure, learn to emulate my patience and even temper one day.

Vaughn, the only way that you can feel I insulted your wife, a person that I have never met, or communicated with is if, at some level you understand what I have written and agree with it. If you felt otherwise, you would simply disagree with me. (back to the no smoke without fire)
I note that some have attempted to demonstrate that there is a disproportionate number of ethnic Estonians selling themselves on marriage agency sites. Guys, get real, read what I wrote. (sorry, I know, it'd spoil a good old blind fist fight, but give it a go.) But to throw you dogs a bone - look at the AFA site - there are women who live in Estonia advertised - alongside women from the UK, Finland and IIRC the US. Bottom line is that whilst Estonia has a large enough market to support several active agencies based here, on the same lines as in Russia and Ukraine, there is not. The last one now rents apartments and does horoscope readings.

But really you lot - most of you do not know where Estonia is and even fewer of you could manage to snag a decent life partner here. It is probably even harder for you guys here than in your own country.

Now, as to the dirty barrel idea - I'd hardly expect those of you who are married to women sold through agencies to agree with me, you simply have way too much invested in an alternate worldview to make a rapprochement tenable. So the point is hardly worth arguing. But that does not invalidate it - nor does the fact that some of you are happy with the exchange that you made.
But, for those who are following you and who might hope to emulate your 'success', it makes sense to have a more realistic point of view put forth. To use the concept of the betting man once again. If anyone were to bet on any single profile in any single agency belonging to a paragon, a diamond an angel, then I as the bookie would go away with a fat wallet. I'd lose some bets, but I'd win many more and you guys KNOW IT! Look at your posts, look at your warnings, look at poor Maxx and his ilk. You know where the smart money lies and yet you attempt to claim it is not so when I bring all your warnings together.

I do not expect that the self deluders and social pariahs will change their stance and I don't really care. But there are some decent guys out there. If one of them, every now and again moderates his thoughts, takes a little care and perhaps even changes his mind, then I have done good. The TGs and Peewees of this world will remain. They are not going to get married any time soon, they know what they really are and what they are really doing - for them agencies are the best thing they can get and good luck to the both of you and your peers.

[Manny]

In addition to the comments above, I shall briefly outline my opinion as to what is my version of the dirty barrel theory in order that those who choose to be critical of me and/or debate sensibly can at least have a launch pad with which to refer.

A FSU ladies motivation to seek a foreign husband is split between an apparent lack of "suitable" men in her own locale (different women give different versions of that thus I use the word "suitable" as a cover all to include they are all married, unfaithful, fewer in number, alcoholic and all the other stuff we have heard that would be a debate in itself) and also a desire to make a decent future for themselves and any future offspring in a place that affords a better standard of living and more opportunity. The desire to better oneself is simple basic human nature.

The most efficient way for a woman to meet a man is via the net either via a contact site, ICQ or an agency etc. At this point the woman needs to compete with thousands of other women to attract interest, she therefore pens a profile (or a helpful cove at the agency will assist/advise) and prepares some often slightly provocative pictures. Women know that men are primarily visually driven so the photo has to be the crowd puller. At this point the woman can be likened to a product in attractive packaging. That is the essence of the "selling herself" term, I prefer to think of it as marketing herself.

The potential pen friend then makes his selections from the agency, he then pays money for contact details, and possibly yet more money to maintain contact via translation etc. So in summary, he pays money to facilitate contact with the lady. Thus he is effectively making a purchase.

Up to now, nothing we dont all know and nothing wrong.

Then into this frame we introduce more than a sprinkling of men posing as women, lets call him Yuri? Then we introduce a good number of corrupt agencies who carry out distasteful behaviour such as making up profiles, not removing outdated ones, paying women a commission to correspond with men they are not interested in (aha - a transaction!) and then we throw into the mix dishonest women who have no intention of finding a husband, pro daters, scammers and people who have their own car parking space at the Western Union office! - The introduction of this element creates the recipe of "the dirty barrel".

Many of the said women who were expecting knights on white chargers from afar then realise that the majority of replies they get are from significantly older men, sometimes fat and ugly, and they then realise that if they are to achieve their goal they must either look long and hard to weed out the grandpas or lower their original standards and accept an older/uglier/fatter man than they first intended - some can do that, some cant. It depends how bad they want it. Often in that situation the $'s assist some of these women in that decision. The ones who enter into relationships of convenience with improbable partners are often referred to as dirty barrel girls.

The result; when a man decides to seek and FSU wife he enters a world inhabited by the above elements, a distasteful concoction that is referred to as the "dirty barrel" - a minority of men having dipped their toe into said barrel actually find a genuine woman in agreeable circumstances and live happily ever after. Many however fail miserably, get scammed etc.

A successful man therefore could be said to have dipped his arm into the dirty barrel and found a pearl. My assertion is that the pearls are few in number but they do exist.

The old/ugly/fat (or any combination of those) men who are 99% likely to be rich, when they encounter a significantly younger FSU woman of a much higher physical calibre than would be attainable at home for them, then proceed to delude themselves that the young lady in question fell in love and blah blah. The simple fact is that those men need to remove the rose coloured spectacles.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an aside to the Estonia debate. The more affluent an FSU country is the better the standard of living would be and fewer women would seek to relocate thus fewer would seek a foreign husband. The more of a $hithole the place is, the more women are eager to escape.

[BillyB]

I am flattered to have been the cause of some much heated discussion. But, at the same time disappointed that so many who, nominally at least, have English as a first language either can not read, or can not understand words written.

It amazes me to see one of the best, articulate writers in this forum remain least understood individual. No need for the fancy words Andrew, just say there's a lot of dumb people here that can't read and you will be more easily understood.

Manchester,  Your woman came out of an agency. Did you find that pearl amongst the mud in the dirty barrel? Of course you did and so did everyone else here. It is normal, if not a desirable trait for a person to want a better life. It's the individual's motives we should question instead of her action of applying at an agency to find a foreign groom. I want  a better life, I want to be healthy and look good. I comb my hair everyday. I guess you can say by combing my hair I'm marketing/selling myself to attract women and/or impress the people I work for but is that such a bad thing? You know what the bad motives RW possess. How do you come to the conclusion a high percentage of bad motive RW enter agencies? Personally, I don't have experience with agency women except writing through letters but I find it hard to believe that only 5% are pearls in a so called dirty barrel. That means one has to accuse 19 out of 20 women listed at an agency of being the rejects of society. With strong opinions like that, I need some proof to believe. Is that too much to ask?

I take it the debate whether or not authetic Estonian women is putting themselves up for "sale" has ended since I supplied some proof of Estonian surnames at a couple of sites?

[KenC]

In addition to the comments above, I shall briefly outline my opinion as to what is my version of the dirty barrel theory in order that those who choose to be critical of me and/or debate sensibly can at least have a launch pad with which to refer.

A FSU ladies motivation to seek a foreign husband is split between an apparent lack of "suitable" men in her own locale (different women give different versions of that thus I use the word "suitable" as a cover all to include they are all married, unfaithful, fewer in number, alcoholic and all the other stuff we have heard that would be a debate in itself) and also a desire to make a decent future for themselves and any future offspring in a place that affords a better standard of living and more opportunity. The desire to better oneself is simple basic human nature.

If you ask just about any person listing themselves with a local dating agency, they would probably say that there weren't any good men/women in their area.  Looking for a good future for their children is also human nature and not specific to RW in agencies.

The most efficient way for a woman to meet a man is via the net either via a contact site, ICQ or an agency etc. At this point the woman needs to compete with thousands of other women to attract interest, she therefore pens a profile (or a helpful cove at the agency will assist/advise) and prepares some often slightly provocative pictures. Women know that men are primarily visually driven so the photo has to be the crowd puller. At this point the woman can be likened to a product in attractive packaging. That is the essence of the "selling herself" term, I prefer to think of it as marketing herself.

Call it "marketing" or just plain making a good impression, but there is nothing for "sale" here.

The potential pen friend then makes his selections from the agency, he then pays money for contact details, and possibly yet more money to maintain contact via translation etc. So in summary, he pays money to facilitate contact with the lady. Thus he is effectively making a purchase.

Up to now, nothing we dont all know and nothing wrong.

The men are purchasing services from agencies, not women.  I still do not see anything "dirty" at this point.

Then into this frame we introduce more than a sprinkling of men posing as women, lets call him Yuri? Then we introduce a good number of corrupt agencies who carry out distasteful behaviour such as making up profiles, not removing outdated ones, paying women a commission to correspond with men they are not interested in (aha - a transaction!) and then we throw into the mix dishonest women who have no intention of finding a husband, pro daters, scammers and people who have their own car parking space at the Western Union office! - The introduction of this element creates the recipe of "the dirty barrel".

So, it becomes a "dirty barrel" because there are "some" bad agencies and bad women?  There are a certain percentage of "bad" people in just about any sampling of humans on the planet.  Does that make the planet a "dirty barrel" too?

Many of the said women who were expecting knights on white chargers from afar then realise that the majority of replies they get are from significantly older men, sometimes fat and ugly, and they then realise that if they are to achieve their goal they must either look long and hard to weed out the grandpas or lower their original standards and accept an older/uglier/fatter man than they first intended - some can do that, some cant. It depends how bad they want it. Often in that situation the $'s assist some of these women in that decision. The ones who enter into relationships of convenience with improbable partners are often referred to as dirty barrel girls.

I would have to take exception to your use of the "often referred to as dirty barrel girls" because the only two people I have heard use the term are you and Andrew.  I wouldn't necessarily classify the term as common.

The result; when a man decides to seek and FSU wife he enters a world inhabited by the above elements, a distasteful concoction that is referred to as the "dirty barrel" - a minority of men having dipped their toe into said barrel actually find a genuine woman in agreeable circumstances and live happily ever after. Many however fail miserably, get scammed etc.

A successful man therefore could be said to have dipped his arm into the dirty barrel and found a pearl. My assertion is that the pearls are few in number but they do exist.

The old/ugly/fat (or any combination of those) men who are 99% likely to be rich, when they encounter a significantly younger FSU woman of a much higher physical calibre than would be attainable at home for them, then proceed to delude themselves that the young lady in question fell in love and blah blah. The simple fact is that those men need to remove the rose coloured spectacles.

Now that you have explained your version of the "dirty barrel" theory, it really isn't much of a theory at all.  It is just a restatement of the many cautions we all try to impart on any newbie in combination with some good ol common sense.  Let's recap:
1) RW seek foreign mates because they do not find the local guys suitable
2)RW seek husbands that can provide well for the family
3)RW try to present themselves in the most attractive manner possible
4)RW use the Internet and agencies to reach out to foreign men because that is the only way that makes sense.
5)Foreign men have to pay for the services rendered by the agencies
6)There are some bad agencies
7)There are some RW that do not have the most honorable intentions
8)The richest guys get the prettiest women
9) Be careful or you may get burned

Manchester,
None of what you say here is new or earth shaking, hell it isn't even original.  What has happened here is that Andrew has been able to spice up tired old information with a couple of inflammatory catch phrases to piss everyone off.  The words "dirty barrel" are only meant to inflame as well as RW "selling" themselves.  There is no dirty barrel and no one is participating in human trade here.

The more of a $hithole the place is, the more women are eager to escape.

Couldn't this too go without saying?  This is also just common sense.
KenC

[catzenmouse]

It amazes me to see one of the best, articulate writers in this forum remain least understood individual. No need for the fancy words Andrew, just say there's a lot of dumb people here that can't read and you will be more easily understood.

"Articulate" I agree with. "Best" I do not. To be a "Best" writer you would need to be able to speak to people so that they would actually listen to what you have to say and want to read it. When you start your post with insults there are not many people who will bother to "read between the lines", or maybe "read between the arrogance" would be more appropriate, to even try to understand the point that is trying to be made. Being intelligent and trying to show how much more intelligent you are compared to anyone else are two quite different and distinctive things. As much as I enjoy many of Andrew's posts there are times like this where I just do not care to bother reading through the superior attitude to get to the point.

Ken

[Manny]

KenC

I never said it was earth shattering nor original. It is obvious to some of us but not to all. That is why I fail to see why you got all shook up about it.

Potato - Potarto! 

Sometimes Andrew does use antagonistic terminology, Isuspect because its fun to plant the seed and watch you "yanks" (see Brits prior) go at it.

I would however add three points.........

Yes I did indeed meet my lady via an agency and yes of course I believe I did well, indeed we are happy so job done. That said, even she agrees it is a dirty barrel the whole RW/WM/MOB scene.

You asked " Does that make the planet a "dirty barrel" too?" - IMO Yes indeed! - The planet is now frequently a horrendous place. That is a good example of a dirty barrel. Lets say the planet is a dirty barrel and the RW/WM/MOB issue is a micro climate therein.

I briefly stated the broad thrust of my opinion, I deliberately toned it down a bit due to issues about the communication media etc as stated prior in this thread. What I didnt cover or only touched upon, Andrew covered above me quite well. As to what defines a purchase and a sale, I once debated this with Andrew on RWG and he placed his argument well enough that I ended up agreeing with him (albeit on a technicality) - I am unable to link to that discussion here nor quote - only Andrew can re post his own words so if he has the energy he maybe will.

BillyB - While your Estonian girls surnames list may suggest some girls from Estonia are looking, the fact remains that there are no agencies there of any merit. Also the grey passport issue and the fact that many Russians who hopped into Estonia before EU now have Estonian citizenship, I believe that distorts and discredits any Wiki figures. As for language, I go there - I was there a few weeks ago - I reported it as I have seen it since 1998. Consulting Wiki is no substitute for going! - I covered my opinion of involved debate on this board earlier in this thread. I would be overfaced by bold type and censorship. I offered you to take it elsewhere - please do so as I will not debate that issue on here.

Catzenmouse - I think it is fair to say Andrew is an accomplished writer. If you agree with him is not relevant. If you think him arrogant does not detract from the value of his writing style. I write the odd article and indeed get occasionally paid for them - and I admire his writing also. The supercilious attitude is a British thing, you must know that by now? 

[catzenmouse]

Catzenmouse - I think it is fair to say Andrew is an accomplished writer. If you agree with him is not relevant. If you think him arrogant does not detract from the value of his writing style. I write the odd article and indeed get occasionally paid for them - and I admire his writing also. The supercilious attitude is a British thing, you must know that by now? 

 Yes, Manchester I do. But from time to time I do get a bit tired of it so I have my say and let it go again until the next time.

 What I do find ironic is that if we were to all sit down and have a beer together I believe that we would mostly get along just fine. Written words on an internet board are too clinical to get the meaning across in all those subtle ways that could be easily be conveyed by a raised eyebrow or a wink in person.

Ken

[Manny]

You make a valid point. (in fact several)

Indeed, in my travels I have sought to meet other board members from here and elsewhere as I believe that meeting new people broadens the mind!

From quick recollection I have met half a dozen RWD/RWG board members in the past few months, I have had cause to speak to another 2 or 3 on the phone.

I have found folk to be often very different to their on board personas and have mostly had a good laugh as after all we all share a common interest.

I wonder when I next hit the US next year KenC will have a drink with me?  - We shall see!

[Jooky]

If anyone were to bet on any single profile in any single agency belonging to a paragon, a diamond an angel, then I as the bookie would go away with a fat wallet. I'd lose some bets, but I'd win many more and you guys KNOW IT!

Come on now. That's just silly. You could make the same bet picking out a girl at the local bar, disco or shopping mall with the same results.

The toughest part would be this: who is to judge a paragon, diamond or angel? For me that's where the 'dirty barrel' theory completely falls apart. We're all looking for different things and we are no paragons ourselves. The best we can do is find the right match. A simple down to earth girl might be a 'diamond' for one man but a 'shop girl reject' for another. Then again an educated opera going fine wine sipping career focused gal might be one man's 'paragon' but to another she is the type to avoid. Hell, I remember some men stating that a prostitute makes for a good wife, and one guy was happy to marry a scammer.

One man's dream is another's nightmare.

Where people go wrong is that they forget about finding the right match and follow a fantasy instead.

[KenC]

I wonder when I next hit the US next year KenC will have a drink with me?   - We shall see!

Hell yes, I'll drink with you.  Why wouldn't I?
(Bold, just the way I know you like it)
KenC

[BillyB]

I have found folk to be often very different to their on board personas and have mostly had a good laugh as after all we all share a common interest.

Different from board personas is true for better or worse. So Manny, on your next visit to the States, make sure you bring a self addressed, postage paid body bag with you so the authorities can properly mail you back home to wifey. Something can accidently slip into your drink. You don't have to worry about me, the earliest we could have a drink is in 17 years after I finish serving time in prison for murder. The guy didn't see it my way over a minor issue creating differing opinions and now he's six feet under.

[Manny]

Hell yes, I'll drink with you.  Why wouldn't I?
(Bold, just the way I know you like it)
KenC

Hey Ken - Now youre talking sense!  - I have been invited very close to you, in your state in fact, so you may find yourself eating your words! 

(bold as I know you like it)

Subject to the vagaries of getting a UK resident RW (on a Russian passport) who is married in UK (to a Brit obviously) a visitor visa to the states (which should not be a big problem but any old RWD links on this would be handy folks) we plan to come next year. Up to now its looking like a Nevada, Arizona, California & Florida multi stop holiday!

BillyB - Where are you if not San Quentin?

[PeeWee]

The TGs and Peewees of this world will remain. They are not going to get married any time soon, they know what they really are and what they are really doing - for them agencies are the best thing they can get and good luck to the both of you and your peers.

Now sometimes I can agree with Andrew. I probalby will not get married anytime soon, I do know who I am, and where I a going. That is exemplary and I am sure that many would like to live my lifestyle. Except for the agency crack. I don't use them. The one time that I did I did well, I must admit. I have not one complaint...well unless if we, the US, might somehow manage to gain control of yet another third world nation. Estonia.

Peewee

[andrewfi]

Catzenmouse - if what I write is not worth reading, then why such comment upon it?

Jooky, as you know, the women in agencies are a self selected minority thus it is not at all 'silly' to suggest that the traits that can be attributed to them are in greater supply, in general, in women in an agency than in the general population. To use your faulty analogy - most women in a nightclub are not seeking foreign men as husbands and have not marketed themselves for the purpose, thus traits that might be attributed to the women who sell themselves in agencies are not likely to be as common in clientele in a nightclub  -except n such a night as the club is being used for a MOB promotion or social.

Billy, if you do not see, read, know proof that appears daily on these boards and from your communication with others engaged in similar pursuit to yours then there is little to help you. But this does not really matter. You have found your pearl among swine - or at least you tell us you are satisfied that you have done so. Thus your willing self delusions are irrelevant except in so far as they might persuade others following you that things are somewhat more rosy than they really are.

That last point is the signal one - time and again you guys will pay lip service to warning guys, you play around at naming 'scammers', you suggest the 'difficulties' and when I suggest that this is a dirty business with dirty people you get upset. Now, guys, really! Who is kidding who? Me who says 'I see a dirty business with dirty people' or you guys who protest that my stance is wrong - even though you have spent hours on this forum, and others, agreeing wth me!

You are going to have to excuse me if I note the more than faint odour of hypocrisy on this morning's breeze!

[PeeWee]

I can agree with the "...dirty business with dirty people..." as easily as I can agree that polititians, police departments, and religions can claim the same. That is not so profound a claim but rather a claim based on probabilities.

There is more than one way to find a foreign bride than to just focus on an agency. An agency is an easy venue for a scammer to manipulate but if one is aware of the potential burn and if one uses his common sense and his ability to read people, then he should not get "dirty" with an agency lady. I tend to think that a man's ignorance or carelessness will attract to him that which he is most trying to avoid. 

Peewee

[catzenmouse]

Different from board personas is true for better or worse. So Manny, on your next visit to the States, make sure you bring a self addressed, postage paid body bag with you so the authorities can properly mail you back home to wifey. Something can accidently slip into your drink. You don't have to worry about me, the earliest we could have a drink is in 17 years after I finish serving time in prison for murder. The guy didn't see it my way over a minor issue creating differing opinions and now he's six feet under.

What was your point here Billy?

Andrew,
 

Catzenmouse - if what I write is not worth reading, then why such comment upon it?

 Perhaps you should re-read my comment. If it was unclear I can use larger words and more complicated prose if that will help.

Ken

[KenC]

Andrew,
There is no  hypocrisy in the way we view things here.  It is just a different point of view of the same that you see.  Much like the glass being half empty or half full.  There are plenty of sincere and honest agencies out there to paint the industry in a much more pleasant way than you and your cohort suggest.  Maybe you only see the negative portion because you view things from the bottom up while most of us prefer to start from the top down?

Everyone here acknowledges that there are bad agencies and bad women involved in this process.  If anything, informing unknowing people about the pitfalls of this process is a huge part of our purpose here.  Where we differ (you and I) is in the fact that I also see the positive side of things that you cannot.  There is an over abundance of fine examples of men that have found wonderful women in the fsu here on this particular forum.  Many of them found within the agencies that you vilify with your tainted descriptions.  Just for your information, most barrels get dirtier near the bottom!  That is why we here at RWD try our best to direct everyone to start at the top.
KenC

[BillyB]

Thus your willing self delusions are irrelevant except in so far as they might persuade others following you that things are somewhat more rosy than they really are.

If a man comes here with his head on straight and proves the quality of his woman by her actions and a visa to Germany in her passport, you say he has willing self delusions? Andrew, you lump everyone together and that is delusional on your part. If a guy seems clueless and/or he says a RW loves him on the 2nd letter and needs money, we warn him. If a guy comes here and shows his maturity, has realistic expectations, a good idea on what a god woman is, and knows how to excercise caution, then we tell him he has the ability to find a good RW. Have you lumped yourself in the TG, Peewee category you mentioned? Just because you live there and have not found a local woman to brag about who'd marry you don't mean you have to be bitter at the rest of the world, especially at the women who wouldn't give you the time of day, the ones who choose a foreign man over one who moved from a prosporous country to a less proporous country, or perhaps in your style of words or a cynical RW thoughts, a person who couldn't handle his the situation he's born in and ran or a person who doesnt' know up from down.

Besides this issue, others issues such as your thoughts on how bad America is doing without acknowleging what is good makes you far from an expert on any issue you choose to be bias on. When was the last time you recognized an intellegent, wise poster and told him he has a good chance at success finding a RW? Nobody seems to be smart enough for you to compliment on and any RW who chooses to leave is not a normal person to you. You left your country too though you had a business there. Did you reject your peers or did they reject you? Did you "under" sell yourself? What part of the dirty barrel did you come from? How do you market yourself and when you buy a woman, do you get maximum economic value for you money? Andrew and followers, when you start talking about yourself, your GF/wife and your parents relationship in those terms, then I'll accept your view of the rest of the human race in those terms too. Your daddy would probably knock your block off for asking him how much he paid for mommy after negotiating price, unless of course she was a prostitute or he viewed women in a low regard too.

Catz, I'm saying I'm in confinement in my little ole cell typing away being someone I'm not. I had everyone fooled and my pics are all photoshopped.

[Michelangelo]

That is why we here at RWD try our best to direct everyone to start at the top.
KenC

Yes, there are excellent women in agencies and they do rise to the top.  The secret is to find those girls and RWD provides valuable insights in how to do that from the constructive comments and experiences of our members.

Excellent point, KenC!

[PeeWee]

Have you lumped yourself in the TG, Peewee category you mentioned?

LOL!!!  Hey, now, wouldn't that be sweet? Andrew as a member of the "Unholy trio" and the "homo" boys club. I'll have to consult with Michaleangelo and Turbogay on that one.

Peevee