FSUW with children and without~

[TexasBoar]

I've been seeing frequent references to and opinions on this topic in a number of threads, but neither "Search" nor a stroll through the archives uncovered a dedicated thread, so I thought perhaps I could persuade the experienced hands and OMGs to pool a bit of y'alls opinions and knowledge in one place . . . 

What's a good, sensible "cut off age" for her child, past which adapting to life in America . . . and an American "dad" . . . is likely to get difficult?

What are the specific dangers/issues that are likely to be confronted? What is, at least typically, the impact on the relationship? Where's the quicksand?

In the 27-35 y.o. range (at 47 I don't think I should go any younger, and in my personal preferences and local dating history I certainly don't tend to go much older) what would the pros and cons be between "never married/no kids" and "divorced/one small child?" (I ask because JB recently posted that the former's likely to be a retired prostitute. 

What are the visa/legal complications one is likely to face in bringing her child here? How can they be avoided or ameliorated?

Is a FSUW with one small child likely to be willing to stop at that, or would they all want to have a second child with their new husband?

Thanks, Boar

[BillyB]

Is a FSUW with one small child likely to be willing to stop at that, or would they all want to have a second child with their new husband?

I think each FSU woman knows the answer to that question. Make sure you ask these questions in correspondence and if they are serious with you, they'll tell you what direction in life they want to go. I read a story of a man who wrote to a woman for a year, then visited her and everything clicked and they were going to get married... until she found out he had a vasectomy and she wanted more children. It was a waste of time on both their part as there was a failure to communicate.

[TexasBoar]

I think each FSU woman knows the answer to that question. Make sure you ask these questions in correspondence and if they are serious with you, they'll tell you what direction in life they want to go. I read a story of a man who wrote to a woman for a year, then visited her and everything clicked and they were going to get married... until she found out he had a vasectomy and she wanted more children. It was a waste of time on both their part as there was a failure to communicate.

Well, I'm open to either possibility if I go forward with this, actually.  I'm more just looking for general guidelines, usual proclivities, anecdotal impressions, experienced opinions . . . that kind of thing.  The cultural differences, if any, are what I'm hoping to get some kind of a feel for; I could just go get on a plane and figure it out for myself, I suppose, but . . . I'm the kind of person who studies first, then acts; looks, then leaps.

I also do believe in communicating and don't mind asking such questions . . . women are fun to talk to if ya ain't skeered . . . lol.

Thanks, Boar

[jb]

Boar,

I don't want you the think my statement was something carved in stone, of course there are exception to everything, however your own common sense will tell you a lot.  For example...Why would you suspect that a stunningly beautiful, single, never married with no kids, woman of say,,, 35, who probably speaks pretty good English, dresses very nicely and sexily, exhibits all the trappings of a decent lifestyle, has her own flat, etc., has all of the sudden developed a desire to emigrate to a new country and marry a man who she doesn't know very well, and profess a new found need for children?   Doesn't make much sense, does it? 

BTW, this kind of woman is more often than not found in the larger cities, small towns hold no attraction for her, and there might be a red flag or two when it comes to meeting her friends and family.  Often, not always, but often what you are looking at is a woman who has made her living in the "old fashioned" way.  To understand this you have to have a deeper knowledge of a culture where it's not unusual for beautiful girls to have a sponsor, a man, usually much older, who keeps her in the necessities in exchange for her company.  Unfortunately, these women have a shelf life, a "Best Used By" age, and they know it.  Also unfortunately, the local guy looking for a marriageable woman knows all about this and isn't in the market for used tires for his family car. 

Sadly, a very common form of birth control for the FSU has been abortion,  I suspect further that a close examination of many of those 35 y.o. women who have been sexually active, might reveal multiple abortions.  I don't know how you feel about the subject, but it's something to be aware of.

I am also not saying these 30'ish women with a few extra miles on them wouldn't make a good wife for someone.  I am saying a guy should go into this game with his eyes wide open.

When you understand the rules of the game, that little woman with a couple of kids and a divorce behind her, starts to look much more attractive.

[TexasBoar]

Good advice, JB, and I appreciate it . . . frankly, until your post I had sort of put such women in the "shortage of men" category the agency propaganda pushes, or perhaps the "career first, then . . . dang!" category that so often happens here.

Frankly, I wouldn't be completely adverse to a "pre-sponsored" edition, since being a mistress, imho, is like any other long term relationship that didn't lead to marriage . . . but I would be concerned about her ability to love---whether she was looking for a good man and a good life, or just another purely mercantile relationship. 

Actual call girls/prostitutes would be a completely different story, of course.  I'm certainly no saint myself, but . . . there ARE limits. 

Thanks again, Boar

[BillyB]

Boar, you should excercise caution even with divorced women too. It's a fact that once a person is divorced, their chances to be divorced again goes way up. That includes a lot of people here and even me. Because one or both partners in the marriage has screwed up causing divorce, they have no business marrying again to some unlucky person. I remember reading a study on this for Americans. A person married for the first time has a 50% chance to divorce, with one divorce under the belt, the person has a 70% chance to divorce if married again, with two divorces under the belt, the person has a 90% chance to divorce if married again.

[jb]

I had sort of put such women in the "shortage of men" category

There is no shortage of men in the age group for normal marriages,  I wish we could lay that myth to rest once and for all.   The average age gap for Russian marriages is 3-7 years for all the Russian couples I know.   There is no inate desire on the part of the average Russian girl to marry a much older man, that comes when there is no other choice for fulfilling their goals.  This often works to the advantage of the AM searching for a wife, in that he generally has more to offer to a woman who may have become disillusioned through a divorce.

I agree, I don't believe there are many men who are so desperate that they'd willingly, knowingly, select an outright hooker for a mate.  But make no mistake about it, the FSU has it's fair share of white trash, they just don't live in trailer parks.

[Turboguy]

First off I agree with Billy.  My own uneductated guess on it are there are two reasons.  When people get married they sort of have it set in their mind that marriage is forever.  A couple of divorces and if they don't take their shoes off at the door they are gone.  The mindset is different.   Second reason is that some people are good at hiding character flaws.  Ones with a few divorces are more likey to have more flaws in their actions and thoughts about marriage and realtionships.  

Having spent 4-5 hours yesterday looking through profiles in the 35-50 range and usually averaging at least an hour a day doing the same thing.  My take based on what I have read is there are a lot of gals who are starting to feel their biological clock is running out and/or they would want to cement their relationship with their new husband with an joint child.  I even saw one gal who was 44 and only wanted to get married to have a child.  She had better act quick.  I think if you are using an agency it is something you should discuss.  If answering ad's quite often they say, but not always.   It is something you need to talk about up front and early.   Wasn't it Jack who had a very happy marriage and then she decided she wanted a child which was a change and something Jack didn't want at that point.   It can be a problem.

[docetae]

Something important not to forget is the father .... If you are dating a woman with a child, be sure the father will be ready to sign all paperworks allowing his child to relocate ...

I prefer to date a woman who has a child for one main reason : I'm sharing custody of my children and I don't want to be with someone who does not understand that children need time spent with them ...

About desillusion ... I prefer to be with someone who have some past .... and who will ask the same level of criterias than me when looking at her second half ... I don't want to do a mistake again so I take my time with no hurry ....

[TexasBoar]

Heh heh heh . . . that's part of the problem, BillyB: I've been exercising way too much caution for, oh, about a dozen years now, since my own divorce! But I'm not exactly ready to throw caution to the winds just yet.  

I'm still not sure all this is really for me, but it's certainly an attractive option.  Where I live currently, the average 27-35 y.o. woman is not only divorced, but has half a dozen kids and at least 50 extra pounds on her. And is from a culture every bit as foreign as Russia's . . .  

I figure I can keep looking and dating locally while rearranging some of my finances . . . and see what happens.

Added while I typed (I love that feature here, lol): JB, agreed, it should be put to rest;however, isn't there at least somewhat of a shortage of partners for women in the age range I'm looking at everywhere? Or were those magazine articles a decade back just OUR propaganda?

TG: yeah, I've seen a few of those profiles---40+ and looking forward to a "child together in the future relationship."  My thought is that medically speaking, we're already taking a chance with my aging sperm (over 40 male donor and the chances of autism and schizophrenia go up exponentially) so it's best if she's well under 35 (over that, the chances of a Down's Syndrome child start going up).  

Pre-existing, my preference would be for a daughter under 5. No sons, period.

Docetae: that was one of my concerns, as I've read accounts of those difficulties in other people's trip reports.  Anyone with personal experience with that care to ring in?

~Boar

[catzenmouse]

Boar,

 If you don't mind my asking, why the "no boys" criteria?

 Regarding the father's permission: If you don't have it in writing and legally notarized then the child will not be allowed to leave the country. There are cases where they don't ask for this proof but if they do ask and she doesn't have it then they will look at this as her trying to sneak the kid out of the country.

 We (she actually) went through some court hearing with the father who was being a real butthead about it as he had nothing to do with Sergei and did not ever want to have anything to do with him. After several of these hearings he suddenly turned around and signed the paper for us. Guess he was just as happy to not be bothered anymore.

Ken

[BC]

All I can say is that in my experience with three kids coming to live here, not knowing the language, adjusting etc, up till pre-teen ages (12 or so) has been quite ok.  I actually think that when a mother and child emigrate it makes it much easier for the mother seeing her child adjust so well and so quickly.

Regarding being accepted as 'Papa', depends on whether or not contact was maintained with the biological father.  Younger is probably better.  Our daughter had practically no contact with her biological father so I quickly received the 'promotion'.. a quite rewarding experience.

The biological fathers' permission or court order is a must IMHO and was required for immigration here. We never travel without it as one can be asked for it at borders in some countries even if only passing through, especially as a single parent travelling with child.  Is something to be cleared up right at the beginning of any forming relationship with a foreign woman. I think any woman seriously considering emigration should be quite up front with you if any issues are expected.  Anything else would be a big yellow, if not red flag IMHO. (Good FAQ topic)

As mentioned in another thread, different upbring styles, sibling rivalry and jealousy issues are something to be aware of.

Another note: My wife felt it was best for her child to follow-on.  This allowed her to finish her normal school year in RU before starting here.  It also allowed my wife time to evaluate the situation here and prepare for our daughters arrival.  Worries about how the child will adapt, learn the new language, get along with local kids are all quite normal questions that came up in normal discourse.  I would have really worried if they did not. 

Regarding having more children, this shoud also be discussed in the early relationship phase and can be a deal breaker, even down the road.  If she does want a child with you all is quite clear, but even if she insists she doesn't and is in her child bearing 'prime', be sure you are able to perform if her mind changes at the last moment.  This last item has absolutely nothing to do with RW.. it can happen with any woman or man.  My ex GF was not 'up front'..  there were other factors involved with the demise of our relationship but this was a contributing factor.

[docetae]

About father permission, does someone have experience about adopting his wife's child ? I do not plan to do that but I have learned to think to all hypothesis before starting something, so I try to get some infos

[BC]

About father permission, does someone have experience about adopting his wife's child ? I do not plan to do that but I have learned to think to all hypothesis before starting something, so I try to get some infos

We have abandoned this option for the moment.  Proceedings in FSU are not as easy as thought on first sight.. Might even be easier in the new host country.  Name changes can be done when the child is 14 according to the information we received.  In any case does not have any practical effect or benifit on the parental permission issue.

FWIW

[KenC]

Boar,

I don't want you the think my statement was something carved in stone, of course there are exception to everything, however your own common sense will tell you a lot.  For example...Why would you suspect that a stunningly beautiful, single, never married with no kids, woman of say,,, 35, who probably speaks pretty good English, dresses very nicely and sexily, exhibits all the trappings of a decent lifestyle, has her own flat, etc., has all of the sudden developed a desire to emigrate to a new country and marry a man who she doesn't know very well, and profess a new found need for children?   Doesn't make much sense, does it? 

BTW, this kind of woman is more often than not found in the larger cities, small towns hold no attraction for her, and there might be a red flag or two when it comes to meeting her friends and family.  Often, not always, but often what you are looking at is a woman who has made her living in the "old fashioned" way.  To understand this you have to have a deeper knowledge of a culture where it's not unusual for beautiful girls to have a sponsor, a man, usually much older, who keeps her in the necessities in exchange for her company.  Unfortunately, these women have a shelf life, a "Best Used By" age, and they know it.  Also unfortunately, the local guy looking for a marriageable woman knows all about this and isn't in the market for used tires for his family car. 

Sadly, a very common form of birth control for the FSU has been abortion,  I suspect further that a close examination of many of those 35 y.o. women who have been sexually active, might reveal multiple abortions.  I don't know how you feel about the subject, but it's something to be aware of.

I am also not saying these 30'ish women with a few extra miles on them wouldn't make a good wife for someone.  I am saying a guy should go into this game with his eyes wide open.

When you understand the rules of the game, that little woman with a couple of kids and a divorce behind her, starts to look much more attractive.

I had sort of put such women in the "shortage of men" category

There is no shortage of men in the age group for normal marriages,  I wish we could lay that myth to rest once and for all.   The average age gap for Russian marriages is 3-7 years for all the Russian couples I know.   There is no inate desire on the part of the average Russian girl to marry a much older man, that comes when there is no other choice for fulfilling their goals.  This often works to the advantage of the AM searching for a wife, in that he generally has more to offer to a woman who may have become disillusioned through a divorce.

I agree, I don't believe there are many men who are so desperate that they'd willingly, knowingly, select an outright hooker for a mate.  But make no mistake about it, the FSU has it's fair share of white trash, they just don't live in trailer parks.

I wanted to address both of these quotes together as I see them as one thought in two parts.  The way I understood the "lay of the land" in Russia back when I was romancing my now wife of 7 years, is that there WAS a shortage of men.  A shortage of men that could afford to support not only himself, but another person as well(his woman).  Therefore it was not unusual for a man with money (usually older) to have a mistress that he would support financially.  It was also not unusual for a business owner to expect sexual favors from his younger female employees.  How frequently these two things happened is a matter of debate in my mind.  I don't know if they happened frequently enough to be a consideration for any conclusions when reading a woman's profile for example.  I would be suspect of any woman living well without any obvious means of support though.  The money has to come from somewhere.  I know my wife has girlfriends back in Russia that have been mistresses to older married men and she also has friends that just have rich parents too.  So I don't think one can make any assumptions here.

But I do bring this up to make another point.  Because it is not considered bizzare behavior for a young woman to be in a position of accepting an older lover (with financial benifits), it may make the acceptance of loving an older man without regard to financial gain more understandable.  Think of it this way; if you know and accept that your friends Olga and Sveta are being supported by older married men and that Yulia has to occasionally sleep with her older boss, why would you not consider a relationship with an older man that is not using his financial supperiority to get into your pants?  Regardless of how prevelant it is, an older man with a younger woman has crept into the fabric of Russian culture, like it or not.  Maybe not in the traditional sense of marriage and a more normal relationship, but it is there none the less.
KenC

[jj]

If the son is in college and age 19, is he considered adult status and does not need permission from bio father?  What is the age where permission is not required?  jj

[BC]

If the son is in college and age 19, is he considered adult status and does not need permission from bio father?  What is the age where permission is not required?  jj

If I recall correctly 14.

FWIW

[TexasBoar]

First of all, thank you all for the honest, forthright, and considered answers.  I really appreciate your taking the time.  Ken, you asked:

Boar, If you don't mind my asking, why the "no boys" criteria?
Ken

And I don't mind your asking . . . I have three reasons, actually.  One is religious; I follow an old ethnic folk religion that emphasizes ancestry, and it's better that a son of my line be a son of my blood, even though there is an option and a ceremony for adoption into the kinclan.  The second is purely Darwinian; I don't wish to invest my time, wisdom, energy, wealth (such as it is, which it mostly ain't, lol), and luck into propogating another man's Y-chromosome.  The third is purely personal; I think little girls are adorable and have always, in the back of my mind, wanted a daughter and envied friends of mine who did.

Thanks all, Boar

[CaptB]

TexasBoar,

Plenty of decent woman, over 30, with or without a child....who are not "hookers" as others have suggested. The initial selling point back in the dark ages of the rw process (mid to late 1990's)....was that young RW's were just dying to hook-up with with old, fat, bald American geezers. Yup.........many older guys did hook-up and bring over on a K-1..........."these young babes". From my many years on the RWG, 8 trips to Russia.....and contact with dozens of Russian/American couples.....I'd say many of these May/December hook-ups ended......with the couples parting company (positively and negatively). Yes there are exceptions.......but you will see a parallel corresponding to......the greater the age disparity.....the greater chance for things "not" working out. My wife is 14 years younger........but I was never really comfortable with much more than a ten-year age difference.....if any at all. Common interests plays a large part in compatibility. How much can you have in common with someone 25 years younger. Things may work "now".........but what about 20 years down the road?

As far as RW with children.......I think many guys a "missing out". I personally know many women in Russia...with children....who would make wonderful wives. The majority of guys I come accross over the years were were looking for younger....without children.....RWs. Some of the most attractive, educated RWs I met.......had a child. Many would be happy having more children.....with just as many to stop....with the children they......and/or their partner.....already have. That will be an "individual".....like most things. Guys on these forums always want to "poll" for opinions......but ultimately.....you are dealing with individuals.

As my friend "jb" may have already told you.....one of the best ways to meet RW's is through the wives, fiancees etc......of those already in the process. Sisters, girlfriends etc. may be looking for a foreign relationship.....also. This way you know the person is legit......and it eliminates alot of the guesswork......and risk. But after that.........it will always be up to........"you" and your RW.........if success will follow.

In that vain........I have sent you a PM. I understand my buddy jb has had a (phone) conversation or two with you.

Capt B

[Maxx2]

As my friend "jb" may have already told you.....one of the best ways to meet RW's is through the wives, fiancees etc......of those already in the process. Sisters, girlfriends etc. may be looking for a foreign relationship.....
Capt B

What if jb thinks your an idiot will he still help me?

Maxx 

[TexasBoar]

TexasBoar,

<snippage>

As my friend "jb" may have already told you.....one of the best ways to meet RW's is through the wives, fiancees etc......of those already in the process. Sisters, girlfriends etc. may be looking for a foreign relationship.....also. This way you know the person is legit......and it eliminates alot of the guesswork......and risk. But after that.........it will always be up to........"you" and your RW.........if success will follow.

In that vain........I have sent you a PM. I understand my buddy jb has had a (phone) conversation or two with you.

Capt B

Got it, and yes he has.  I'll be much in contact with you both as dates draw nearer, I expect. 

12-15 year age difference sounds about right, really.  I'm writing a 29 year old and a 37 year old at present, but not that seriously. 

~Boar

[CaptB]

Hey Maxx.......I know its "scraping".........but even "I'..........would help you

Capt B

[Maxx2]

Oh CaptB, I am beyond help. Please post your story about your Moldavian ex-sister-in-law with a chainsaw. I need a good laugh and a reminder I got out relatively in good shape and in one piece...

Maxx

[CaptB]

I'll ask by brother.....if he would mind my posting his story.

Capt B