Let me introduce myself...

[Shadow]

Rattlehead excuse my jokes, but they were intended to make you think. Many people are picking up the agency hype where it comes to women in the FSU and feel that the women have values they do not spot in their local surroundings. Once you bridge the language gap you will find that women are women everywhere on the planet.
But I will give you the hance to explain exactly what 'western culture values' you think the women in the FSU do not posess.

[Rattlehead]

Shadow, I'll do you one better.  Since you've been here much longer than I have, why don't you explain to me why you are here?  I mean, look, I don't know everything, but you apparently prefer RW over WW as well, so maybe you'll be able to articulate what I just have vague feelings about and set me straight where I may be wrong.  But honestly, instead of me defending ideas I haven't fully formed or tested, I'd like a veteran such as yourself to explain to me why, if women are women everywhere (and I agree more than you think I might), you are searching for a woman so far from your home.  I mean there must be SOMETHING different about RW that makes you go through all this, right?  Yet I wouldn't think that you believe so with how negative you're being.  I appreciate that you are trying to set me straight and disabuse me of unrealistic ideas and expectations, but let's stop beating around the bush, shall we?  Instead of trying to get me to give you answers that you can pounce on and make me look stupid, why don't you explain to me how RW and WW are the same and how they are different.  If there were no difference at all then we'd all be morons for going through all this.  I'd consider it stupid even if there were a difference but it wasn't significant.
  I understand that some people come on to this forum with fantastically unrealistic and absurd ideas about RW, and I'm sure I have ideas that are either flat-out wrong or exaggerated, but it's condescending and, simply absurd, for you to be here, yet imply that if I'm expecting any difference what-so-ever between WW and RW, then I'm some sort of naive idiot.  Please tell me why YOU are here.
  I've come here to get information, advice, tips and other help about this, not be told, by someone trying to do the same thing, how naive and stupid I am.  I'm not buying in to agency hype.  I came to these forums to separate hype from truth.  But it becomes difficult when you go that one step further than simply exploding myths and just take to saying things that imply that the whole thing is a waste of time and if I think I'm going to find anything over there different than over here I'm wrong.  I mean which is it?  Is there any reason to pursue RW or not?  I have to believe there is, and that even you believe that there is, otherwise you wouldn't be here, would you?
  I'm sorry if I'm overreacting, but instead of being sarcastic and vague about how I may be wrong (when all you have to go on is basically the same thing that everyone says who is doing this), then just be specific without being sarcastic and condescending.  Look at my number of posts.  Look at when I registered.  I'm still learning.  I can't be as educated as you just yet, so rather than trying to show how naive I am, please tell me what the differences are.  Regardless of what you say, my vague statement will be proven right, because, as I said, you wouldn't be doing this if you didn't see a difference too.
  I don't mean to be confrontational, but it just seems like a situation where I will try to put my vague feelings into words and then you, being someone who's been at this for a while, and has probably been to Russia a number of times, will laugh your ass off at me for not knowing exactly what I'm getting into, even though you were in my exact same position when you started this. 
  Lastly, instead of asking me, the newbie, to explain something, why don't you answer my question about the "survival trips?"  That would be constructive.
  Look, I apologize to everyone else here, but at some point people are going to have to learn that sarcasm and other such verbal devices doesn't translate well to print, so therefore it just comes across as an insult online.  Please refrain from the sarcasm.  I feel stupid enough as it is even considering undertaking a quest for such a longshot, so I don't need someone else who's doing the same thing to act like there's no reason to do it.  So, please tell me why YOU are doing it and maybe I'll have an easier time verbalizing why I am.

Rat

[Turboguy]

Rat,

I think KenC said it best early in this thread.  For where you are at and your age you are a pretty smart guy. 

I will give you the best answer I can to your question and if I am off in left field they can jump all over me and not you.  I have been to the FSU about 20 times and leave Tuesday for my next trip  with two more planned before the end of the year.   I made my first trip in 1996.  Some of the older married guys can tell you a lot more than I can but I will try to share what limited knowledge I have.

Advantages of an FSU woman over an American woman.

Most are far better educated then their American counterparts and the ones seeking to marry a foreign man seem to be the ones with more education, drive and ambition.   Russian women tend to be in better shape and better physical condition than their American counterparts.  Some of that is because they take exercise more seriously, some of it is because as part of life in Russia they walk a lot.  You don't see as many fat ones.  The older ones put some weight on but really obese ones are rare.

FSU women seem to take more pride in their appearance and dress and act more like women.  You see more high heals, nice clothes, make up, long hair and great legs.  FSU women are more flexable in their choice of men.  The comments I here are that you can safely to about two notches better there than you can at home.  FSU women can be very hard working and ambitious.

The agency's try to create the illusion you will get a stepford wife or a 1950's style stay at home and raise kids type woman.   This is not true.  FSU women usually value marriage and want marriage more than AW seem to.  They are fiercely loyal to their children.  If you think a bear cub gets protected by the momma bear you have not seen anything compared to an FSU woman.   They do have good family values.  They will often work harder to make their man happy.  I think they tend to be a little more sexual than AW as well.  Younger ones tend to be less religious than AW.

Now, lets talk about the bad parts.   FSU women, particularly in the big cities can get jaded by the search for a foreign husband.  They start looking and want to meet a few before they decide and suddenly find men showering them with money and gifts, taking them out to fancy restaurants, trying show how generous they will be when they are the men's wives and suddenly single life looks better than married life.

There are enough rich foreign men that throw money around trying to help some foxy chick that they have the hots for that it encourages scamming.  You do need to be very careful of scammers. 

Other possible negative things to consider would be that FSU women tend to look for and to be attracted to very strong willed men.  The first thing they do when they find one they like is to try and cut his nuts off.  It is not as bad as it might sound but they do tend to be very direct and strong willed.  Often if you let them wear the pants in the family they will loose their respect for you. 

Some of the big city gals can have a bit of an attitude.  Read some of Elen's posts and you will see what I mean.  Elen is a good girl and a big asset to RWD but she is definitely her own person.  This may appeal to some and turn some off.  It is what you like in a woman. 

The process of bringing them to America and helping them adapt to life here can be difficult and challenging.   They don't exactly hop of the boat thinking they have found heaven and live a life of thankfulness.  They go through culture shock, language problems, problems adapting to their new life, problems with language and more.  You need to work hard to help them and in the end it will be worth it. 

A lot of guys here tend to think that FSU women were stamped out with a cookie cutter.  It is not true.  They are all individuals.   The can be the most honest, faithful, loving wife you could ever dream of finding, they can be GCG who will dump you in a heartbeat 2 years and one day into it.  They can be following an agenda far different than what the say.  They can be gals who sit on their tail and expect to be waited on hand and foot or gals who will be banging every man they meet.  You need to spend time getting to know them and if something seems wrong it probably is, so in that case run for your life and find another.  There are lots to choose from.

I could probably go on for another page but this gives you an idea.  You don't see too many happly married men who would even think about an AW if they had it to do over.  It is worth it.

Rat, RWD has all types of people.  Some are very thoughtful and helpful, some can be direct and a few can be nasty on occasion.  I agree with you.  When someone comes here looking for honest answers and help with things they want to know and don't, straight, helpful answers are what they should get.  RWD is a great asset.  You will find lots of good here.  When there is a comment that is not what it should be you need to learn to just let it roll off your back.  It is going to happen on a few occasions and the people that posted ususally mean well.  Their idea of helping just may not agree with yours and mine. 

You have a lot going for you.  Your age is great.  You will be swamped with the choicest of girls.  You are smart and you are trying to learn who to do this right.   You will do great.  Just take your time and learn all you can.

[KenC]

OK Rattlehead,
You offer some very valid points in your post and ask for guidance instead of sarcasm.  I am more than willing to give you my opinions, use them, ignore them, do what you want with them.  First a little background, so you know where I am coming from.  I have been married to a drop dead gorgeous RW that is 25 years my junior for over 7 years now.  I have participated in RW forums for quite some time and I have met many RW here in America.  Some married to AM, some not.  My opinions will be based only on my experience.

Viva Le difference
Many will say "women are women" and although that is somewhat true, it is the huge differences that make the trip to Russia well worth the effort.  The main difference is in femininity.  RW act like women you dream of here in America.  They like being women. They like being sexy.  They like being the weaker sex.  They like a strong and powerful man to protect them and the lead them. They view sex differently from any AW I have ever met.  They don't use sex to manipulate their men as much as they feel it is their responsibility to take care of their man's needs.  It is a subject of great pride in their mind to have a happy and sexually fulfilled man at home.  They love to dress well and are very conscious of their public appearance.  Going to the grocery store is just as important for them to look good as you would think they were going to a party.  They also have a much stronger need to become mothers at some point in their lives.  Most RW are in great shape and continue to take great pride in their bodies well into their 40's and 50's.  All this sounds great, doesn't it?

There is the other side of this coin too.  Do not confuse being the "weaker sex" with being weak.  RW are very strong willed.  They will allow you to lead, but you damn well better lead them down the right paths or they will never let you forget it.  They are also very jealous.  If they catch your head turned in the wrong direction, expect to lose it.  And pity the poor AW that might show a little bit too much attention to you.  They are extremely territorial of their men.  They demand your utmost attention at all times.  In order for them to look their best, allow for hours of prep time and then they still will be late.  (But the wait is worth it.)

My opinion is that "once you go Russian, you'll never go back to American women."
KenC

[KenC]

Turbo,
Great post, dude!

Rattlehead,
Just a few words regarding your "hunt."  Be very very selective.  You have no idea of just how beautiful RW really are until you go over there.  There is a seemingly endless supply of beautiful women.  So don't base your selection on the criteria of beauty alone.  Choose the woman that displays the best characteristics for your personal needs from the many beautiful women available.  This is almost the opposite thinking that is commonly used here in America.  I guess what I am trying to say is; expect the woman you choose to be beautiful, just so you can concentrate on the other considerations more.  Don't get sidetracked by the first beautiful woman you meet, because they are but one of many.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Thanks Ken, Yours was great and right on too.

Rat, another thing.  Don't short change yourself.  If you see some awsome chick that really appeals to you don't think, well she is so wonderful she won't be interested in me.  You will find many of them will be.   That is exactly what KenC did right.  He saw a gal he wanted and went for it and came away with the prize.  You can too.

[Shadow]

Rattlehead as you asked I will give you my views and situation.

First of all let me tell you that I am not a good judge of American women as I am from Holland. The ones I have met seemed very decent to me, but I do understand that daily life experiences can be different.
I never gave up on local women and did not mind dating them. Also I got close to marrying a woman from Argentina. Being interested to travel, I never closed my mind to finding my life partner in another country. That she is from Moscow is chance, and not a choice for country or area of the world. She could have been American or Japanese as well.
The women in Kiev and Moscow did not look different from the women I see here every day in the street. some are hot, others are not. In general the FSU women put some more work in their appearance before going out in the street. And Ukrainian women dress more sexy than their Russian counterparts. Must be the weather.

What I was looking for was to emulate the environment that I grew up in. Two parents who love each other, and will put each others happiness above all other things. Parents who cared about their kids, even if they did set strict rules. Parents that wanted to spend as much time together as possible with the family and did not even think about 'time alone' or 'their own friends'.
If that is the old fashioned thing you are looking for, you may be right or may be wrong.

Now about my experiences in the FSU. First of all most FSU women have jobs because it is needed for both to work to feed the family. Children are raised in daycare centers. Nothing unusual there. But there is one large difference. Western Europeans and Americans are career minded. They will do anything to reach the top and gather more money.
Russians are different. They first enjoy life and secondly work to pay for it. If they can enjoy life without work, they will choose it, even if it means no material posessions. Money is not a goal, but an object to reach their goals. With value of money being zero overnight a couple of times in the last decades, who can blame them. This goes not only for the women but for the men as well. And where men like to party with their friends, women are the backbone of the family and keep it together in a strong way.

Russian women have strong will, can have a temper when antagonized, and are very independent. From their mothers they have learned to sugar-coat men to get what they want. They can run the family while dad is out cold from the vodka, and defend him towards their friends.
The last thing you want to do is to be the rich American who will save some women from her poor existence. The woman who will agree in this has probably questionable motives. RW have a lot of pride, and are usually not unhappy with their life.

These are my views on the process, you are free to shoot me with your critic and questions. I will as usual give my honest views and replies.

[catzenmouse]

Well now, I didn't pay much attention here the last few days and here I see some to the best posts that I have ever seen here all in one thread. KenC, Turbo, Shadow... Awesome on target and to the point posts. These are very choice pieces of information!

Rattlehead,

 I'd say you have plenty to digest here and great info to get going with. Pay attention to what is written here or not. That is your choice but to ignore it is paramount to walking blind into a minefield. Yeah, you might just make it through to the other side, you also might just get your legs blown off.

Ken

[Rvrwind]

If you see some awsome chick that really appeals to you don't think, well she is so wonderful she won't be interested in me.  You will find many of them will be.   That is exactly what KenC did right.  He saw a gal he wanted and went for it and came away with the prize.  You can too.

One of the things I tell my clients is, if your walking down the street, in a grocery store or just walking in the park & you see a woman that attracts you & she makes eye contact, GO FOR IT!!! Don't hesitate, don't think, just do it. He who hesitates is lost.
I train my interpreters to handle such situations gracfully, by helping the guy introduce himself & going from there. I personally have become aquainted with many great ladies that way, some of whom are now in our program.
Remember the old saying - YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE!!!

[BC]

Thanks Ken, Yours was great and right on too.

Rat, another thing.  Don't short change yourself.  If you see some awsome chick that really appeals to you don't think, well she is so wonderful she won't be interested in me.  You will find many of them will be.   That is exactly what KenC did right.  He saw a gal he wanted and went for it and came away with the prize.  You can too.

Turbo,

This does sound a good bit 'rah rah'.. I'd put KenC's situation in the one in a million category.  I don't think he would even recommend someone attempting to follow suit, after all there are only a couple jokers in the deck and seems he's holding at least one of them.

We've often discussed here that if your dating skills are not up to par at home they certainly won't be in the FSU.  In fact I personally think many men enticed with RW simply believe they can overcome their deficits going the MOB route.  'Introductions', socials etc basically circumvent fears of rejection when taking that first small but crucial step to actually meet Ms Smokinova by just 'going for it'.

Rattlehead,

Since you raised the point that you are not sure about travelling these roads (healthy POV btw) I think you will do well by first double checking your motivations and deciding whether or not this venture is for you before moving on to the 'how to' stage.

Take a look at this thread http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=605.0 titled "Would you recommend your best friend search for a RW". Might be a good topic to provoke deeper thought and investigation.

[Shadow]

One of the things I tell my clients is, if your walking down the street, in a grocery store or just walking in the park & you see a woman that attracts you & she makes eye contact, GO FOR IT!!! Don't hesitate, don't think, just do it. He who hesitates is lost.
I train my interpreters to handle such situations gracfully, by helping the guy introduce himself & going from there. I personally have become aquainted with many great ladies that way, some of whom are now in our program.
Remember the old saying - YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE!!!

That reminds me of my visit to Kiev. We established that we would be friends only, but did not have chemistry for life partners. When walking near the Kreshatik metro my lady friend said 'hey that women is looking interested in you...shall I introduce you to her ? '. As it was the last day already I declined. But she noticed something I would have missed.

[Stirlitz]

Rat, another thing.  Don't short change yourself.  If you see some awsome chick that really appeals to you don't think, well she is so wonderful she won't be interested in me.  You will find many of them will be.

According to my wife it is very common. Nice guys are often too shy to approach gorgeous girls because they think they would not be interested, have a boyfriend, etc. While not-so-good guys are usually pretty self-assured and think too much of themselves. As a result, a cute girl in the street would be chased by ugly ‘goats’ while guys she likes much more would only drool at her back even if she gives them a lead (a smile, a look). An interesting thread: a stupid short bald fat man with a beer belly and bad breath has much less inhibitions and much more confidence than he should.

One of the things I tell my clients is, if your walking down the street, in a grocery store or just walking in the park & you see a woman that attracts you & she makes eye contact, GO FOR IT!!! Don't hesitate, don't think, just do it. He who hesitates is lost.

Absolutely. Years ago I was reading manuals how to pick up girls in the street, etc. All of them contain a lot of ‘valuable’ information but miss something. The thing is you do not really need sophisticated techniques. As someone said, I see a girl I want = I make her mine, period.

[Turboguy]

BC, I will not argue the fact that KenC drew a straigh royal flush and most guys won't.   We don't know anything about Rat's dating skills here and assuming they are not up to par is a guess. 

The cold hard facts are that no matter what he does here, he can do a little better there.  If he is average looking and not 200 pounds overweight and talks without drool running down the side of his face he can get a nicer gal there than here.  First off one thing we do know is that he is young.   That is a big asset.  He is not a 70 year old guy looking for a hot 21 year old.  My suggestion was just that he should not assume that a girl that is a couple of notches better than he would normally date, who he might not approach here, would not be interested.   My suggestion is go for what appeals to him and see what he can and can not do.  If the 9's are not interested go for the 8's if they are not, go for the 7's. 

I am leaving tommorrow with my 36 year old son for Ukraine.  The gals he is in contact with already and who seem seriously interested in him would be way out of his league here.  My suggestion was just for Rat not to short change himself.

Stirlitz,  I agree with you totally.  I have seen guys who were real sleeze bags and real scumballs who even in America had gals falling all over them.  I have seen guys who had nothing going for them physically that had the same.   The common element was usually, attitude, moxie and confidence. 

[prince_alfie]

I think that attitude is about 60% of looks.

[BC]

BC, I will not argue the fact that KenC drew a straigh royal flush and most guys won't.   We don't know anything about Rat's dating skills here and assuming they are not up to par is a guess. 

Turbo,

I addressed Rattlehead specifically in the second part of my post.  I was not assuming anything you may refer to.

As long as you brought it up, I highly disagree with your numbers game until such time that you can demonstrate with your experience that your theories are valid.  One can date and even sleep with a 10 without too much difficulty in most places on this blue planet.  Marriage on the other hand is a completely different world.

True dating begins when introductions and socials end.

I'm sure you and your son will enjoy your trip.  After all these years I hope something works out for you so that we can get to the difficult stuff.  I don't know why, but my mind is drawing proverbial parallels I won't express here so I'll just take this opportunity and shut up. 

[KenC]

BC,
I guess I am with the rah rah guys on this one!  You just never know unless you try.  Even though I had my doubts about the real possibilities with Lena, I went over with the confidence that I was one hell of a good catch too.  Do I deserve a woman as good as she is?  Hell, yes I do!  I have always looked at her extrodenary beauty and youth as negatives to the relationship, not positives.  To have a wife as beautiful as she is or as young as she is was never a criteria for me, it just happened.

That is why I advised Rattlehead to not get too hung up on beauty.  He needs to assume his future RW will be beautiful and pay very serious attention to all the other factors much more.  I didn't fall in love with Lena because she was young and beautiful, but because of all the other qualities I discovered.

Igor,
In all the dating/pick up help books there is one constant: The more you pitch yourself, the more you will score.  You just will never know unless you try.
KenC

[BC]

BC,
I guess I am with the rah rah guys on this one!  You just never know unless you try.  Even though I had my doubts about the real possibilities with Lena, I went over with the confidence that I was one hell of a good catch too.  Do I deserve a woman as good as she is?  Hell, yes I do!  I have always looked at her extrodenary beauty and youth as negatives to the relationship, not positives.  To have a wife as beautiful as she is or as young as she is was never a criteria for me, it just happened.

Ken,

Regarding the portion of your post I highlighted, would it be plausible to suggest that at least some, if not most of the guys have their criteria a$$ backwards?

Apologize in advance if I'm twisting your tongue around.. 

[Turboguy]

You saying it should be youth and beauty instead of beauty and youth BC?   I would be happy to switch those around in my priorites except neither is a priorty for me.  I am sure those who have it as a priority would have no objection.

[KenC]

Ken,

Regarding the portion of your post I highlighted, would it be plausible to suggest that at least some, if not most of the guys have their criteria a$$ backwards?

Apologize in advance if I'm twisting your tongue around.. 

BC,
I don't think you are twisting my tongue around at all.  Let me try it another way.  Everyone has a minimum level of beauty that they would consider in starting a relationship as well as a minimum age.  Lena was a lot younger than I ever wanted and she exceeded my minimum for beauty by a long shot.  I could have been just (or more) happy with an older and less beautiful woman. 

My criteria was never to marry the most beautiful and youngest woman possible as some think.  I saw Lena's youth and beauty as huge potential risks, but I was overcome by her personality and character.  That is why I said for Rattlehead to assume he will find a beautiful woman and to focus on the other criteria.
KenC

[BC]

My criteria was never to marry the most beautiful and youngest woman possible as some think.  I saw Lena's youth and beauty as huge potential risks, but I was overcome by her personality and character.  That is why I said for Rattlehead to assume he will find a beautiful woman and to focus on the other criteria.
KenC

I hear you Ken.. Seems the younger and more beautiful they are, makes other criteria even more essential in keeping the scales somewhat balanced.

[Turboguy]

Yes, but it also seems the younger and more beautiful they are the more unbalanced we become. 

Considering people have killed and started wars for a beautiful woman, making good decisions can not always be the easist of challenges.

Trying to keep balanced surrounded by the gals of Kharkov

[catzenmouse]

Yes, but it also seems the younger and more beautiful they are the more unbalanced we become. 

Considering people have killed and started wars for a beautiful woman, making good decisions can not always be the easist of challenges.

Trying to keep balanced surrounded by the gals of Kharkov

If we ask the ladies here I'll bet they would tell us that being men makes it damn near impossible for us to make a good decision in any situation because we're all still just little boys inside.   Personally I think that train of thought is just absurd and I'd write more about this but Sponge Bob Squarepants is on TV now so I gotta go...

Ken

[KenC]

Yes, but it also seems the younger and more beautiful they are the more unbalanced we become. 

Considering people have killed and started wars for a beautiful woman, making good decisions can not always be the easist of challenges.

Trying to keep balanced surrounded by the gals of Kharkov

Turbo,
You're exactly right in most cases, but for some reason I reacted a little differently with Lena.  I consciously debated her youth and beauty in my mind many many times.  Even though I had dated women in their late 30's that were less mature than Lena, I still registered her youth as a negative.  I was so fearful of allowing her beauty to influence my thinking, that I set even higher standards for her in the many other areas of concern.  Youth and beauty can be a plus only up to a point, but beyond that it starts to become a negative.  I guess it was my way of keeping myself "in balance" as you say.
KenC

p.s. (Why don't you start a thread in T/R and give us updates along the way?)

[Michelangelo]

  Even though I had dated women in their late 30's that were less mature than Lena, I still registered her youth as a negative.  I was so fearful of allowing her beauty to influence my thinking, that I set even higher standards for her in the many other areas of concern. 

I agree, KenC.  Last year, I had misgivings dating a beautiful 21 year old who was crazy about me.  I set such high standards in every area that I doomed the relationship, and actually, I'm glad I did. 

My fiance is 31 and I feel much better about her and I put up less flags, even though she is 16 years younger.   Both girls were beautiful; I made the right choice.

Good luck to you in your search, RattleHead.

[Turboguy]

KenC

p.s. (Why don't you start a thread in T/R and give us updates along the way?)

Actually Ken, I am planning to do that.  I am on a 4 city tour.  We have one more day in Kharkov and I will try to post the start of it tomorrow covering from our arrival to that point and will update towards the end of each city.