Regaining Control

[KenC]

Take good notes, Turbo, we want to here it all when you return.
KenC

[Muj]

Try that argument with a woman prosecutor at your DV trial....

 From engaged:

Breath the word "divorce" or suggest the marriage needs help or to separate often times triggers the DV false charges.

 From BC

This happened as a result of a INS study in three US cities back in 1982. They found that 30 to 40% of these marriages were fraudulent. That is why they require a "comingling of finances, cohabitation and an intimate relationship" and a screening process down at the local service center.

If a marriage breaks up before she gets her Green Card then according Federal law (CFR 1986) she has 30 days to return to Russia after the divorce is final or she will be "accruing illegal presence" and is "subject to deportation". There are only 2 ways around this. File a I-751 "good faith attempt with the marrage" petition or file an I-360 "spousal abuse" petition. The first one is iffy and if it doesn't succeed which is often the case the woman will be faced with no work authorization card and having to pay 10's of thousands of dollars in legal fees to a immigration attorney and EOIR immigration court costs. The second petition is called the "silver bullet petition" by the immigrant community because it rarely fails. That's why a guy has to be very careful when one of these marriages is failing as the I-360 needs to be supported by official evidence of abuse or as the INS calls it "primary evidence". Which can be fabricated with a bit of boldness and acting ability.

I am hoping Turboguy passes this on to his friend.

Maxx   

Cmon Maxx, chill dude.  He needs a level headed constructive approach to the situation.  Not a reaction based on fear. 

[Turboguy]

I think the hopes are to find a way to turn it into a better relationsip. Right now it has problems but I think both are sincere in their desire to be together. I think some times when you are an easy going person you sincerly try to make your partner happy. I think some FSU women by nature just can easily mistake tha for weakness. I will post some of my thoughts when I am not writing on my blackberry and in between meetings

[jb]

Her excuse on the sleeping (and whatever else you do in the same bed ) is that he snores.

Buy her some ear plugs.

[Turboguy]

Not sure if he ever tried breathe right strips.  They have helped some people.  I know there is an operation that can cure it but it would be a shame for him to go through that and have her still sleep in the other room.  Ear plugs might be a good idea and at least would test if it is the problem.

I do agree that if he tries to go over night from easy going to totally in control it will be the fastest crash on record.  I think he has to do this long term.  Rewarding good behavior could be good. Learning to say no might help.  Might be possible to stand his ground a little then a little more, then a little more etc until he has his pants back on. his body.

She refuses to do marriage counseling.  I Think that is not too accepted in the FSU.

[groovlstk]

Just my two bits, but in my experience if a woman loses respect for a guy there's no getting it back.

Ever.

Once she views him with contempt she will always view him that way, no matter how hard he tries to change his behavior. In fact, changing his behavior will only make her think less of him, if that's even possible.

Expecting him to treat her like Pavlov's dog and rewarding her when she doesn't treat him poorly is pretty silly. How should he begin asserting himself? By demanding control of the channel changer tomorrow night, and working his way up to refusing to put the toilet lid down by weekend?

[Michelangelo]

I do agree that if he tries to go over night from easy going to totally in control it will be the fastest crash on record. 

Note to Newbies:  From the beginning, take charge of the relationship.  Listen to her, yes.  Try to please her, yes.  But then make a decision and lead her.  That's what she really wants in a man.

If not, move on.  Or you will have a future like Turbo's poor friend...

[Durk]

           Turbo if he snores that may be a medical issue. There is
a check list for self diag. He may want to see the sleep lab and
his doctor. That could be serious.
            He could be worried about his daughter and not sleeping
well. I have heard of people snoring so loud that you almost had
to go outside. If she is being kept awake every night who could
blame her for wanting to get her rest too.
            I recently read a study on sleep disorder in my Dr.s office.

[Rvrwind]

I have heard of people snoring so loud that you almost had
to go outside.

Yeah, I'm one of them, but my wife still shares the same bed. I get an elbow in the rib cage & a firm "Roll over Sweety" & everything is cool. There is the odd time when I will wake up in the morning & she will be sleeping on the couch & she just smiles & says "I couldn't get you to stop snoring!" But she always goes to bed with me in the same bed. Sometimes she elbows me so hard I get up & go to the couch because I can't breathe, LOL.
Marriage is sometimes a compromise. But to not attempt to compromise is a show of disrespect & contempt for your partner. The more I hear about this lady the more I fear for the ultimate end to this relationship.

[Muj]

Snoring proves very loud by some people.  Agree, it is a medical situation and he may improve his health and marriage by seeking medical help.  Lack of sleep also creates mood and maybe mental disorders.  Maybe she sleeps light.

[Turboguy]

There have been some great suggestions.  I think as far as SOC's suggestion of rewarding good behavior.   I think that is good but I think the opposite is more important.

For example Let's say her worked 8 hours, plus two hours overtime trying to earn money for the extra things he needs to do to keep her happy and comes home and says smomething like

You are a lazy man.  You are sitting here watching televsion and the bathroom wall needs to be painted  ( I think the lazy man part comes from one of his letters and he really is working overtime trying to get her the money for expensive dental work and a visit home without straining his finances)

To be honest, she says to me that I am a lazy man I should be painting the bathroom walls she had better be prepaired to look at bathroom walls that need to be painted for a long, long time. If he gets up from the tv and paints the wall he is re-inforcing her bad behavior.  If she can't ask for can't ask for something in a polite and kind way she should never get it.
I think the problems with the son need to be dealt with by the mother more than him but again it is important not to reward bad behavior.

I have to agree with Groov, getting respect back and regaining control may well be impossible.  I think a lot of us when we want to save a relationship do what we can.   I think it can be done but will be really hard.  The longer it goes on the tougher it will be.

[BC]

FWIW I think they may have simply hit that rut where the previous fantasy world converges with the reality of daily life.  He's working and she is dealing with the four walls, including the ones in the bathroom.  Maybe they need to get away a bit more.  She might be just begging for personal attention.

If she does not like the idea of counseling then maybe he should forge ahead on his own in this direction.

I take it these folks are in the adjustment period and ignoring the fact that adjustment is not a one sided arrangement.  It's not about her adjustment but about their adjustment.  Thinking otherwise is disastrous.

Everything disclosed so far are only symptoms and not cause.  They are both going to have to dig much deeper.

[Maxx2]

The most important question not answered by Turboguy was asked by jb early on, "Does she have her greencard yet?"


Maxx

[BC]

The most important question not answered by Turboguy was asked by jb early on, "Does she have her greencard yet?"


Maxx

Yes Maxx is a good question along with many others, but let's not go crying 'Wolf!' until we know a bit more.

[Maxx2]

If I remember right Turbo came on here with a rather pessimistic report on this marriage.

Another important questions are;

How long have they been married?

She sleeps in a separate room. Is this because of his snoring or is that just an excuse?

She is not affectionate/sexual or is the sex just less often as is often the case with marriages that get beyond the honeymoon phase?

She won't do counseling*. Is this a typical stubborn RW pride thing? Or is it because she is on a count down to Day 731?

Does she make exclusive friends in the Russian community that are not socially involved with her husband?

The "counseling option" is what many of us Westerners cling to when a marriage is in more needing of a consultation with a divorce attorney. Counseling is great but it's not a RW thing is it? Frankly I don't see a need to go to a divorce attorney yet with this one unless he sees that this one is likely to go down. Especially if she has not got the GC yet. > I know from experience that seeing attorneys and planning an escape out of a marriage is a great defence if the DV charges hit. < I know, there I go again acting out of "fear". Honestly you people know NOTHING about dealing with the worst case scenario.

Maxx   

[BC]

Maxx,

Although I admire your effort, in the long run they might be counterproductive.  I sometimes wonder if more, and worse train wreck stories might get guys to think more seriously about this venture.  After all, prevention would seem preferrable to simple mitigation of bad results caused by bad decisions and shortcuts.

I'd just hate to see guys use your 'survival manual' to justify errant ways by providing tricks and tips to soften their landing, making the risks they take seem less harmful than they really are.

[Maxx2]

One thing I have learned BC is I haven't communicated this situation too well. There is no soft landings unless the woman desires one which is not in her best interests. My advice is more akin to placing a matresses in front of you right before the train goes over the cliff. Best bet is to pick the right train when you know you are in the right condition to ride it.   

Maxx

[KenC]

Just my two bits, but in my experience if a woman loses respect for a guy there's no getting it back.

Ever.

Once she views him with contempt she will always view him that way, no matter how hard he tries to change his behavior. In fact, changing his behavior will only make her think less of him, if that's even possible.

Expecting him to treat her like Pavlov's dog and rewarding her when she doesn't treat him poorly is pretty silly. How should he begin asserting himself? By demanding control of the channel changer tomorrow night, and working his way up to refusing to put the toilet lid down by weekend?

I really gave your post some thought before I responded.  At first I tended to agree with you, but the more I thought about it, I have to disagree.  My disagreement comes with some strings though.  If the woman has lost all respect, then it may indeed be hopeless.  But the loss of respect doesn't usually come all at once, it comes a little bit at a time over a period of time.  There may be hope to reverse the trend if the relationship hasn't deteriorated completely.  Of course in order to change the direction it will take some dramatic steps on the part of the guy.  There may indeed be some ultimatums established and he has to be willing to back them up with action.  The end results may go one way or another.

I do see this dilemma as a cultural difference though.  Let me explain.  RW are used to relationships where the man is a total hardazz.  RM tend to be what we would call chauvinistic pigs in America.  To counter that behavior, RW have become very strong willed in order to get a minimum of what they want from their husbands.  Basically they have been conditioned to hit their men over the head with a frying pan in order to get him to take out the trash!

Enter the AM that has been conditioned too.  However his conditioning has been in the opposite direction.  We have been taught to respect women as our equals.  We have been conditioned to listen to their every thought and opinion.  We have been conditioned to be understanding to their needs and to never pull any superiority crap with them.

So, when you have RW that are conditioned to be aggressive and demanding and AM that have been conditioned to be gentle and understanding, you have one side trying to "take" and the other side trying to "give."  It is easy to see how things can get out of whack in a hurry.  "Giving in" too often is a sign of weakness in the eyes of the RW.  From the view point of the AM, it is almost the more you give, the more they want.  The vicious cycle goes on and on.

Lena and I went through this transition.  It has caused more than a few altercations and it is the root reason for some constant adjustments in both of our behaviors.  I remember one such time, when we had a big misunderstanding.  When we talked it out, I explained how I came to my incorrect conclusion based on 3 or 4 comments she had made.  Her answer to that was classic.  She said I paid too much attention to what she was saying!!  She went on to explain that women complain all the time and never really expect their man to listen.  And the mystery of RW continues..........
KenC

[Turboguy]

KenC,  I have seen you make some good posts but to me that was one of your best.  I have to agree about women complaining.   I did not get too far into the book Men are from Mars...... One of the early chapters said men are fixers.  Women are talkers.   If for example a woman complains that her boss is treating her badly the man feels like going and telling him off.  The gal really just wants someone to listen to her and sympathise with all the difficulties she is going through.

OK, more data.  She does not have her green card yet.  She seems to have some unrealistic ideas about what whe will make when she gets it.  She does seem to make friends only in the Russian community.  I would have to go back though my e-mails to know exactly how long they have been married but I would say 7-8 months.  I have the impression sometimes they do better and sometimes they do worse. 

I would call my report more worrisome than pessimistic.  I think they both want the marriage to work.  I really don't think she is a GCG.  I think if she treated him with a little more respect and a little more warmth things would be tolerable but I do get the impression that he really needs to take control of the marriage more than he has.  Perhaps it is just part of the adjustment period.  Maybe he read too many ads for the big agencies and reality is setting in.

[KenC]

Turbo,
Thanks. Your comment about "Men ar from Mars, women from Venus" is right on the money too.  Women just want thier man to listen not to fix the problem.

With your couple being married for 7 to 8 months and no green card yet, I would give your buddy 16 months to straighten this out or he is toast.
KenC

[tim 360]

KenC,  There is alot of truth to your last 2 posts,  upthread.  Easily USA conditioned guys could have problems when they tolerate and even reward an RW's bad behaviour. 

Loss of respect is usually a gradual slide.  Takes a little time,  but once gone it is gone forever.

TG's friend will need to put the pants on himself and wear them.

[Manny]

I do see this dilemma as a cultural difference though.  Let me explain.  RW are used to relationships where the man is a total hardazz.  RM tend to be what we would call chauvinistic pigs in America.  To counter that behavior, RW have become very strong willed in order to get a minimum of what they want from their husbands.  Basically they have been conditioned to hit their men over the head with a frying pan in order to get him to take out the trash!

Enter the AM that has been conditioned too.  However his conditioning has been in the opposite direction.  We have been taught to respect women as our equals.  We have been conditioned to listen to their every thought and opinion.  We have been conditioned to be understanding to their needs and to never pull any superiority crap with them.

So, when you have RW that are conditioned to be aggressive and demanding and AM that have been conditioned to be gentle and understanding, you have one side trying to "take" and the other side trying to "give."  It is easy to see how things can get out of whack in a hurry.  "Giving in" too often is a sign of weakness in the eyes of the RW.  From the view point of the AM, it is almost the more you give, the more they want.  The vicious cycle goes on and on.

Lena and I went through this transition.  It has caused more than a few altercations and it is the root reason for some constant adjustments in both of our behaviors. 

I am actually with KenC on this. (stop press!  )

For anyone who doesnt know, my lady arrived in the UK permanently a few weeks ago. (following many many visits over a year and a half or so - me there and her here)

We have had a few minor issues of course, nothing serious, but during one such disagreement today I remembered this discussion. On the issue today I gave a simple "no" (after explaining why) and stuck to it. (where previously I would have relented with whining)  Suddenly, the whining stopped and after a few minutes sulking she was happy and smiling again!

When we discussed it later she was happy to accept my decision as it showed her me being decisive and displaying "good husband behaviour" - it gets better and better! 

[Durk]

       Manny I think the difference between Turbos friend and you
has to do with the length of time you dated. Going to see her for
a time back and forth was smart on your part. I think you are now
benefiting from that process. Would you agree?

[Manny]

       Manny I think the difference between Turbos friend and you
has to do with the length of time you dated. Going to see her for
a time back and forth was smart on your part. I think you are now
benefiting from that process. Would you agree?

Yes I would agree!

I was drawing more from the advice that Michealangelo gave that we picked up on rather than Turbo's OP. We have an advantage having different visitor visa situations than the US guys so that allows us to develop our relationship better before a big commitment. (plus smaller distances thus cheaper flights and shorter travel times)

My lady learned much about UK life before she committed to living here and marrying me so it was not a blind alley for her.

But the principle that has been raised is a constant. RW prefer a man who is decisive and will put his foot down occasionally. If you dont you are weak and thus lose respect. We must learn a whole new set of rules.

[groovlstk]

But the principle that has been raised is a constant. RW prefer a man who is decisive and will put his foot down occasionally. If you dont you are weak and thus lose respect. We must learn a whole new set of rules.

There are so many silly generalizations made about Russian women, I've come to laugh when I read a post claiming "all Russian women are x," etc.

But I have yet to find a Russian woman who desires a weak or sensitive man, I think it's the one gross generalization about RW that is true.