How to start again

[Bruce]

I know there are alot of guys out there that think they have found "the one," after meeting her, but after the trip they come home, things somehow disintegrate and the guy is back at square one.  Sometimes the relationship builds for a lengthy period of time, many trips, major emotional commitment, sometimes major financial commitment and then seemingly out of nowhere things fall apart.  Sometimes it takes months or years to find the girls dishonorable intentions.  It is a miserable experience, but certainly less painful then divorce.  Alot of guys in pursuit of a wife from the FSU have this experience.  Alot of guys happen to experience something like I described above many times.  Some get it right and eventually find a wife from the FSU and others give up. 

Now, why does this phenomenon occur?  International dating is very hard.  Cultural and language barriers do indeed exist.  Time zone, internet access, telephone line connections all can work against a relationship.  Inability to really have quality face time really hurts a relationship.  

Perhaps unrealistic expectations is the biggest source of problems.  If a guy is looking for a girl that is emotionally immature the relationship will never be on firm footing.  Generally girls less than 25 years of age are just not emotionally mature enough to handle an International relationship.  Of course there are exceptions, and a girl who had a miserable experience(s) with her local men may have decided that she is adventerous and committed enough to give a go at an International relationship. 

Additionally, the guy should think of his strategy for pursuing girls in the FSU.  How does he go about meeting them?  Perhaps what he has been doing to meet the girl of his dreams is great, its just his poor choices or maybe he needs to do something completely different.  Maybe the guy should have no strategy at all and just show up and see what happens - heck, that probably is a great strategy for some of us, especially type A individuals who need to relax.

Each guy needs to look within himself and decide what is really important in a mate.  Physical chemistry of course is very important.  More important are character traits.  Each guy needs to look deep inside himself and really know what he has to offer to a mate.  Each guy needs to know himself the best that he can.  Is the guy lying to himself???   If he is lying to himself how can he tell the truth about himself to others.  A lie will be found out, especially by a woman contemplating a life with a guy.

A guy who has 'failed" really has not failed.  There is no need to be married.  For some people it is really nice.  Some guys do not want to get married, nothing wrong with that - but I hope you do not spoil it for the guys who do by lying to the women in the FSU you meet.  Guys who have "failed" could have had it worse, ie. married to a girl just looking for a green card (heck that could ultimately be alot of the married guys on the board) and divorced. 

So, I hope guys that do want to get married but would want suggestions on refining their approach / re-evaluate what happened both to them and their circumstance(s) would share their 'failures" with us on this board so we could offer suggestions to help them from "failing" yet again. 

[Bruno]

How start again ? Great question... certainly a different reply for each people...

The first point before start again, it is the need to make a self analyse why it was not working... in my case, it was enough easy because i have make so analyse with my ex-wife...

First, i was not ready ? Yes, i was ready for love a woman, for life together but not about a international marriage... the work before the marriage is only the little work... the big work begin after the marriage... and be marry to a foreign lead to some complications... Second, my ex-wife was not ready... she have find me a good man but she was not in love... she have hope that love go appear with time but it was never coming... we have great sex together, i have love her but for her, i was only a good friend...

Of course, i have realise all this after the divorce, when we have speak openly together about the past.... my first reaction was no more a russian woman... and i have try some Belgium one again... the problem, i cannot stay more that two week with a Belgium one... and i have begin again my international search... i have try some asian, but again it was not working... after all, i have think that now, i have some experience with russian and why not try again... and for now, i thing that it will be working...

In place of see my first marriage like a full misluck... i use it like a source of information who help me... no more the same error... my bad past allow me to build a better future...

[Noyrt]

As Bruce said....   I agree,

I've been through much of the same you speak...  Four trips,   usually only one women I intended to meet on each trip. Not much for a backup plan.  But thought I found -the one- on my 3rd trip attempt.  Came to see only her, and stayed with only her for weeks.... Got engaged, had some problems, but worked through them.

Long story short, these women lie, alot, and it seems as much a part of their culture/nature as anything else.  They seem to live by the little white lies.  Maybe it is smoking... or drinking... or a local boyfriend, getting abused by their boss at work.. etc. ..  

Anyways, always I have been lied to in writing in some form or fashion.. But aside from this I knew she still have feelings for me, that seemed real to me..... (the foolish one).

So I return home, start 129... and go back a few months later to be SURE..  With paperwork, the skeletons came out, more problems arose, and  her personal problems didn't pass.  Always the same little test and games, that we men are tired to endure with our selfish American women,  I seem to always find again in Ukraine.  Why?. 

I'll tell you....... Yes, the younger one's are immiture a bit, but it has only worsened by all the attention they receive from us travelers.   Second, though all women want the "Fairy Tale" it is difficult for them to ever accept that a man can really care about them or that any relationship is real and serious.  They will always have a shadow of doubt in their mind., especially if it is known you are meeting others.  I didn't meet others..... but  Usually it is apparent with them anyway, but in my experience it has been somewhat suttle, but always the dobt is there. 

So maybe you have read how after the engagement, you must "work" to keep the relations.. It is true..  because, it is hard for them to believe you will return, no matter what you told them... Etc..  I heard the same from my Inna many times, before I left and while I was away..... Crap... even after I returned to her, she couldn't show me she beleived it was real and open her heart.. I worked hard to make her beilve it was real, but she didn't seem to care enough to write back most of the time, and show me she really cared for me also.   It was our distuction, in the end..   Along with her  secret  'skeletons' ... past husband, abusive boss, and stubborn behaviour, getting mad at me for stupid reasons, and giving me the silent treatment.

Needless to say, after 2 weeks, I very sadly, had to break it off......  Which crushed her more, for about a week till she hooked up with another american man, visiting her city,  after my leaving.  It gets worse, as I knew him....  but I'll leave it at that for now. 

But still with all our problems, she was the best woman I have ever met, and I still miss her even now a year later.  Damn this is hard!

My 2 cents. 

Noyrt.

 

 

[Bruce]

Noyrt - you are very lucky to be 36 years old and fully experienced with the trials, tribulations and pitfalls that one can fall into in the difficult process of finding, attracting, holding and eventually bringing a girl from the FSU into the USA for marriage.  I guarantee you will meet and eventually marry a better girl from the FSU than the girl who in reality was really not into you last year if you are persistent and learn about yourself and your choices.  Heck, I had recently turned 39 when I made my first trip to St. Petersburg 1n 1999.  

Now is the time to think of what you did during your four trips.  What did you learn from each trip?  What did you enjoy?  Obviously you have no problems meeting girls - but were they really high character girls honestly and sincerely looking for a man from the USA.   I suspect they were not.  Alot of the younger girls, and with you only being 36 I suspect your target range is 22 on up, just have not made their mind up about anything.  It is very hard for them to understand the visa processs.  Even if they do, when push comes to shove and they realize they will be giving up their family, friends, everything they know and have experienced, going to a different system - then they really make their decision.  It is reality check time for them.  Very often, the seemingly sincere, adventerous girl, especially the young girl who really does not know what she wants in life just crumbles to her fears and adversely affects your potential life together.  Your temporary loss but her lifetime loss.  So be it.  You'll find a better girl.  Get back in the ocean sooner than later.  It will happen for you.

If a younger girl is divorced with or without children in the FSU I believe they would be a much better choice because they have experienced so much more in life then the wild eyed and bushy tailed younger, especially pretty younger girls.  If a girl is older than 25 she should also be much more mature mentally than the girl 21 or 22.  If I were you I would not seek a girl North of 30 unless you feel she is exceptional.  I believe your target range should remain 22 to 30 years of age.  Pretty much forget about the girls still in College - just too young without real life experience.  Chances are they will fall apart during the process.

Know yourself and realistically think of what is best for you.  Those of us with our act together can attract and hold a girl who is prettier, younger, just as intelligent and possess all the qualities plus of girls we could meet in our own countries. 

[TigerPaws]

Noyrt,

 Listen to Bruce and get back in the game, try looking for girls who are 24 to 26 who have been married and divorced but do NOT have any children yet. They will have a much better idea of what they want in a relationship and hopefully be a bit more mature. Also expand your search to the smaller cities, towns and villages where you will find far more girls with more traditional values.

 The question you need to ask yourself is: What do I want in a lady to make me happy? Then seek out only that type of lady in your quest for a bride.

[Noyrt]

Thanks Tiger and Bruce.

No I've not given up, but after  4-5 years and likely 20k invested in all those trips, it gets frustrating, to say the least. 

I want to go again but not sure yet who to meet or where.  I speak 'survival' Russian now enough to take the busses/ trains alone.  I'm pretty fearless anyway, and I've been in some bad places, and a few uncomfortable situations with other Russian/Ukrianian men in my random travels.  I survived and didn't get mugged. But I did get sucker punched once on a bus, buy a guy that got mad at me after he asked for money and I didn't give him any.  It hurt, but he got off and I stayed on and motioned to the driver to keep going.  It's only a bruse and since I was carring about 1400 bucks in a moneybelt,  wasn't looking for a fight with a crazy man.

In my last  trip I stayed in Ukraine nearly 2 1/2 months, traveling on my own, cheap motels, and flats(when I could get help finding a flat).  Starteded in Sumy,  lost Inna.  Bounced the trains south to Poltava/Zaparozhye/ Kherson/ Simferopol/ Sevostopol. Then made my way back to keiv to fly home.

Your right I'm looking for early 20's but I have met one as young as 19, and honestly got along great with her, cause she wasn't in college and didn't really have  a full time job. She was open and fun..   But after a week or two, the lies came out again. Had a kid,  was a player, and after some turn of events, I'm convinced she was a "do it yourself prostitute".   So after she ditched me one evening to go sleep with some other guy, (telling me she had to go break up with an x boyfriend, ) ahhh at 1am, yea right! Needless to say  I took the bus first thing in tne morning.

It was interresting to call her house and wake up her mother at 5 AM to return the key to my flat, that she had arranged.   And try to explain to her where her daughter was.  Not comfortable, but in this first meeting with her mother, she actuatally tried to get me to stay and wait for her....  NOT.......

Funny the Mother's always seem to like me.  Even when I have problems, they are usually on  my side about it.

My problem now is I have become my own worst enemy.  I know what I like  in both appearance, and personality.  But it's not easy to find, even with the selection.  Basically I'm a bit picky,, added with all my bad past experience with women, I become more aware of judging all behavious too quickly.  Also, as you all know, these women don't open up quickly, and do not seem to understand our urgency to know as much about them as quickly as possible.

My own worst enemy...... I want to find a woman unlike myself, who is still the romantic at heart, has not been scorned by bad relationships with other men,  I would prefer never married,  but willing to take a chace with divorced if their open and honest about it.   And sadly I have a concience that most men don't.  I don't like to hurt anyone, or to have anyone hate me for any reason. So its hard to tell so many that they are not "it" for me.  In writing or in person.

One of these days, I going to write down all I can remember of my journey's and travels.  Not really interrested in a book as I'm sure many have done but just to have a novel to share with others in the quest, for knowledge and help. 

So many experiences and opinions, now I find myslef confused and not really knowing what I want.  I know I'm tired of living alone, but I think the engagement scared me as much as her.  Cause I really don't have my shit together as far as home, job and security.  I'm one of  the 20-25K a year guys, who just struggle all the time. But I hope that shouldn't matter to the right woman, but I don't make myslef out to be more, I travel cheap, and many I've met have questioned me about why I won't always stay in the 20-30 bucks an night hotels. Etc. But I know it is an expensive game, but i don't want t a game.  I think it should be easy, if women just take it serious and understand, but it never is, and they never really do.

Still looking... and fine tuning my philosophy's on these women. Good and Bad.

Thanks, Noyrt.

[TigerPaws]

  I'm one of  the 20-25K a year guys, who just struggle all the time. But I hope that shouldn't matter to the right woman, but I don't make myslef out to be more, I travel cheap, and many I've met have questioned me about why I won't always stay in the 20-30 bucks an night hotels. Etc. But I know it is an expensive game, but i don't want t a game.  I think it should be easy, if women just take it serious and understand, but it never is, and they never really do.

Still looking... and fine tuning my philosophy's on these women. Good and Bad.

Thanks, Noyrt.

 

Noyrt,

 A bit of friendly advice if what you say is true about yor income then honestly give up your search for now, work on your career, you would be doing a disservice to a lady by bringing her over at this point in your life.

[Noyrt]

[Bruno]

[line]
A bit of friendly advice if what you say is true about yor income then honestly give up your search for now, work on your career, you would be doing a disservice to a lady by bringing her over at this point in your life.
[line]


Very bad advice... it is just one of the problem know russian woman when they begin life with Western man... they don't understand why WM use so much time for build a career and so little time for his family...

They wish a decent life but not a rich man ( except if she have marry you for your money )...  And it seem me that 20K is a lot... i have life with a woman and child with only 17k... and US is more cheap that EU...

In my young time, i have work a lot, and earn around 5k month... but no one woman have stay with me more that 3 month... always very late home, working some week-end, ...

If you can affort decent living place, food, medical care, go education for children, a trip each year for visit family, ... etc ... you are able to marry a RW... the rest is BS of man who think that RW are only reserved to rich man...

 

[Elen]

Actually all of you here are not young boys at all and should have built your careere already to your 40s

[Bruno]

Yeeep... i am young... only 36...

About career, i have begin build it at 20 yo... and i have stop it around 30 yo... family is become my priority and it was not possible with the career... choice the quality of life over the money... more free time, home each day evening and week-end...

If you have child, it is not from your office that you can take take of him and give him a good education,... if choice to earn more low money and give my time to my child...

[Elen]

you have one more 4 years for improve your career to support your new young wife:P:P So stop waste time at this board and let return to your business:X(kidding)

 

[TigerPaws]

you have one more 4 years for improve your career to support your new young wife

 

 

Noyrt,

 For once I am going to agree with Elen, 40k a year is very marginal today unless you live in the middle of nowhere which would not be a great place to bring a cosmopolitan lady from the FSU. Generally I counsel men that they should be in the 65k to 75k per year range at the minimum and have the ability to take several weeks off at least twice a year in order to seek out a bride from the FSU. This is not necessarly a rich mans game but realistically a man needs to have enough resources in order to do a sucessful search.

[Elen]

For once I am going to agree with Elen

 Ah :DI 'm going to mark that day in my calendare with a red color [/size][/color][/font]

[Muzh]

Noyrt,

 For once I am going to agree with Elen, 40k a year is very marginal today unless you live in the middle of nowhere which would not be a great place to bring a cosmopolitan lady from the FSU. Generally I counsel men that they should be in the 65k to 75k per year range at the minimum and have the ability to take several weeks off at least twice a year in order to seek out a bride from the FSU. This is not necessarly a rich mans game but realistically a man needs to have enough resources in order to do a sucessful search.

Tiger:

With all due respect, you probably live a very sheltered life and your sense of reality has been warped by watching Faux News every day.  Or is it wishful thinking?  65 to 75K for what?  Or is it that you want to include alimony and child support payments as expenses to consider when you bring a young girl here.  And even that amount is high here in the expensive State of NY.  Is it a requirement to own a mansion and a yatch for people to consider this?  Annual trips to Hawaii?

Can you give me some itemization of the expenses you will incur after you bring your bride here to justify these figures?

[Bruno]

[line]
Generally I counsel men that they should be in the 65k to 75k per year range at the minimum ... This is not necessarly a rich mans game but realistically a man needs to have enough resources in order to do a sucessful search.
[line]


minimum 65k year... not rich man... yes, now i understand why these rich man are so greedy, they don't know they are rich...

Read the rapport at http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/labor.pdf ... from table 621 and these who follow... and if you read all the report, you will see that minimum 65k is not in the medium range but almost at the top...

And again, it is not the money who make your search sucessful... it is not because you have enough money to meet several woman that you will find one for marry...

People with real medium income have a great advantage... because so process is enough expensive for them, they are able to make a strong selection from the begin and meet a woman when they are almost sure of success... we compensate our low money with our brain

 

[Todd]

Bruno,

I looked over the charts from your link, and, while the individual median incomes are in the upper $30,000 range; in the US, most women now work.  So, if they are both making an average amount, then the median income of a dual income couple is roughly $70 K per year.  However, not all women work and many only work part time, so the median income for a family of four as of 2004 was reported to be $51,000.  With that said, expenses are very different depending on where in the US you live.  For example, my 1 room apartment rents for nearly $1,400/month as it is near Harvard Sq.. In contrast, this apartment would rent for probably $400-$500/month in my home town in rural Michigan.  In a typical urban area, I would say a $65-70,000 would be a good target for overall family income if children are in the picture.  Remember, that these figures are prior to tax, which would knock roughly a 1/4-1/3 of this income in State and Federal taxes.  Also, I would assume that most women from Russia would want to live in an urban area at least initially as they won't have a driver's license, and they may want to tap into the Russian community.

Thus, the bottom line is that I would have to agree with Tiger Paws.

[Muzh]

Bruno,

I looked over the charts from your link, and, while the individual median incomes are in the upper $30,000 range; in the US, most women now work.  So, if they are both making an average amount, then the median income of a dual income couple is roughly $70 K per year.  However, not all women work and many only work part time, so the median income for a family of four as of 2004 was reported to be $51,000.  <snip>  In a typical urban area, I would say a $65-70,000 would be a good target for overall family income if children are in the picture. 

Todd:

So you agree with Tiger here, no?  Look at what you wrote above.  Individual incomes at around $30K and married couple at around $70K.

So what you and, by association Tiger, are saying is that an American man, based on the income bracket you both agree, bring a RW to share with his American wife?  Or are you expecting that his Russian wife will be making the difference (around $30K year) once she gets here?  Or better yet, have his American wife wife work while keeping the RW as the sex kitten?  I believe that Tiger said: $65 to $75K year minimum.

I'll assume you are in that income bracket, you lucky dog.

[TigerPaws]

Tiger:

With all due respect, you probably live a very sheltered life and your sense of reality has been warped by watching Faux News every day.  Or is it wishful thinking?  65 to 75K for what?  Or is it that you want to include alimony and child support payments as expenses to consider when you bring a young girl here.  And even that amount is high here in the expensive State of NY.  Is it a requirement to own a mansion and a yatch for people to consider this?  Annual trips to Hawaii?

Can you give me some itemization of the expenses you will incur after you bring your bride here to justify these figures?

 

 Muzh,

 Sheltered? Hum if you mean a career in the U.S. Military, going through the Academy, being shot down over enemy territory, fighting in several conflicts including the first Gulf War, being wounded in action, visiting 132 different countries and rising to the rank of General before retiring. Then starting and operating an extremily successful business which I sold for several millions of dollars sheltered, then maybe I am.

 As for how much I spent on my quest for a bride, if you look at my earlier post at http://russianwomendiscussion.com/view_topic.php?id=19&forum_id=4&highlight=tigerpaws I beieve you will have some small idea of what I went through in my quest. I am not sure exactly how much I spent as I did not really care, but a conservative guess would be between 25 to 30k over a couple of years for my search and if you take into account all of the trips to the Bahamas and the FSU. My lady did not have very much of a wardrobe so on our trip to Paris before her K1 visa was approved we purchased her a complete wardrobe. Once she arrived in California (we just moved to Florida) there was additional clothing and trips to many various places throughout the U.S. and a wedding on the big island of Hawaii.

 If I were to make again a conservative guess as to the total cost from my first letter of introduction to the end of her first year here in America I would say that I spent 35k on my lady during that time frame. So a total for my quest would be in the range of 50 to 60k depending on how things are added up. 

[Muzh]

 If I were to make again a conservative guess as to the total cost from my first letter of introduction to the end of her first year here in America I would say that I spent 35k on my lady during that time frame. So a total for my quest would be in the range of 50 to 60k depending on how things are added up. 

Tiger:

Very impressive resume.  My question for you was: Can you itemize the expenses an average Joe will incur after he brings his hottie to the US to justify the $65K to $75K annual salary.  I can understand that you have done very well in the business department and have money to burn, therefore, your friends and aquintances will probably well exceed the salary requirement you reccomend.  However, I doubt that most gentlemen on this list are on your economic strata.  It seems to me that for anyone to advice an unknown, based on his own good fortune ($) to have the above salary range as a minimum to embark on this adventure is, well, inconsiderate to say the least.

I don't think that as a General in the armed forces you would treat your subordinates as fellow generals, did you?   This journey is not easy, but not impossible either.  I had a LOT less than you have described, spent a mere fraction of what you spent, and I have been married for 5 years.  We still have fun with each other.

I've been told that the US armed forces (my uncle was a retired USAF General) indoctrinate their members with a "can do" attitude.  A few bucks should not be an obstacle for a man to find his soulmate, should it?

[Noyrt]

For "Tiger Paws"   haveing served nearly 10 years myself, I have the utmost respect for your past and accomplishments.  But to me now, your farily well off. Obviously older and worldly anyway.  

The money side is different for everyone.  I know when I made more.... I generally  spent more.  But now I make less again, and though its hard to break the usual spending habits, I am better well managed. 

Its different for everyone.  I've spent I suppose 20K in 4 trips over 5 years,  but each trip I can stay longer, and do more for the same money.

My last trip I stayed 2 1/2 months in Ukraine,  though weary and emotionally stressed at the end of it all I only spent 5-6K including airfare.  So for everyone it's different.  I see ad's for socials for 3 weeks for 3-5K.  NOT ME.... I like to wing it on my own.  It's seems more natural that way, too.

I've chosen to spend more money here on language lessons, and try not to be at the mercy of the agency's / and interpreters.   Though honestly, I find it hard and I'm far from fluent.

Anyway,, I didn't intend to set everyone off on a money argument. 

If anyone is interrested to know, the MINIMUM you can make and still bring someone over on a K-1 : It's 14,500 K  a year, for the past 3 years.

Ciao, Noyrt

 

 

[jb]

Anyway,, I didn't intend to set everyone off on a money argument.

If anyone is interrested to know, the MINIMUM you can make and still bring someone over on a K-1 : It's 14,500 K  a year, for the past 3 years.

Interesting comment, and I think, more than somewhat misguided.

No one can live on 14.5K in this country, nor, (IMHO) can any family live decently on 20-25K per annum in this country.  This is an income for scraping by in a getto, not a living income.  

I cannot imagine a RW/UW willingly, knowingly, coming to America without some expectation of having a better life than what she currently experiences at home.  She can live in grinding poverty at home where at least she has her friends and family.  Why on earth should any man expect a woman to travel to the other side of the world to live hand-to-mouth?  For love?  You are kidding yourself if that's what you think.

How can you afford to live, and at the same time afford  save enough to pay for airfares to and back to the FSU so she can visit her relatives even once a year, CIS fees, new clothes, shoes, a decent/safe 2nd hand car for her to drive, added insurance costs for a new driver, health insurance if you are not employed and already have such benefits , International student tuition at the local college for ESL classes, an annual membership at the local health club so she won't lose that girlish figure you are so enamored with, and the list goes on and on.

So,,, at the end of the day, it does, in fact, all boil down to money.  We have seen, time and time again, guys who come on these boards and advocate shoestring romances, personally I don't give three hoots for their chances of a successful marriage.

Trying to do this on a 20-25K annual salary is an exercise in stupidity, but don't listen to me, have it your own way.

[Muzh]

jb:

The following is not a necessity, but I still agree with your POV.

jb wrote:

International student tuition at the local college for ESL classes (actually, these are free), an annual membership at the local health club so she won't lose that girlish figure you are so enamored with, and the list goes on and on. (Fluff)

So,,, at the end of the day, it does, in fact, all boil down to money. We have seen, time and time again, guys who come on these boards and advocate shoestring romances, personally I don't give three hoots for their chances of a successful marriage.

Trying to do this on a 20-25K annual salary is an exercise in stupidity (don't be harsh, futility sounds better), but don't listen to me, have it your own way.

But 65-75K is an overkill.  Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to make that kind of money:cool:  My gross income was 50K at the time I did this, comfortably.

 

[jb]

Muzh,

I'm sorry, you are right, I was harsh, "futility" is a better word than stupidity.  And,,, you are also correct that 65K might be arbitary, (it was not my number, BTW), depending on where a man lives, 50K is probably a better number.  Although I still maintain the 20-25K number is so far out of the mainstream as to be laughable.

How about using this as a yardstick?  Look in the real estate section of your local newspaper and get the price of your average home.  Can we assume a family of three?  That would be a typical 3 BR, 2 bath, 2 car garage, located in a decent neighborhood.  American communities have been building this house for decades,,, ok?

If the price of this house is beyond your financial reach, that is to say, after a decent down payment, the monthly payment, including PITI, is greater than about 25% of your net take home pay, then you can't afford to chase skirts in the FSU.  

The man who doesn't meet these simple requirements just doesn't have the *MINIMUM* wherewithall to bring this to a successful conclusion.

[Elen]

(it was not my number, BTW), depending on where a man lives,

and also on how old HE is and how young SHE is:P:P:P