Group Tour or Go Alone?

[Gator]

Bruno,

Great photos.  Russians love summer picnics, shash lik, and melon. 

However, I see just one bottle of piva - does this qualify as a party?

[Darth Vader]

... I personally think it's a risky, and somewhat sleazy way to meet women. Just my opinion, different strokes as they say.  -  David

Whoa, back off, David.  Maybe you did not intend to, but you imply that ladies that go to agency parties are sleazy.  NOT TRUE!  My wife attended several agency parties before I met her, and many of her friends went with her.  I just mentioned your comment to her, and it made her mad.

She said the main reason she went to the socials was to practice her English with native speakers in a safe environment.  And if she met someone interesting, that would just be a bonus.

To me, there are multiple ways to meet FSU women, and I'll not take shots at any of them. 

I believe living in the city for a month or so is the best route, but short of that, I would rank agency lists or free lists number two and group tours number 3.  But all are valid, and men have been successful with each.

[jinx13]

 What the hell Darth, you quote me, but don't comprehend what you read apparently. Did I say the women were sleazy? I said it's a sleazy way to meet women, this refers to the man, not the woman, geez man, get a clue.

[PeeWee]

What the hell Darth, you quote me, but don't comprehend what you read apparently. Did I say the women were sleazy? I said it's a sleazy way to meet women, this refers to the man, not the woman, geez man, get a clue.

I don't agree with it. I think of the singles clubs that have been established in almost every city in the US where singles go to meet. There is always a function involved too. Be it skiing, wine tasting, sailing, Western dancing. But how is that different than what is happening at the social function connected with a RW tour? The function is a party including dancing. Like minded people are meeting with like ideas in mind. How is that different?

peewee

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with PeeVee.   I don't see it as a sleezy way at all.   Not sure why you feel that way.

[Darth Vader]

What the hell Darth, you quote me, but don't comprehend what you read apparently. Did I say the women were sleazy? I said it's a sleazy way to meet women, this refers to the man, not the woman, geez man, get a clue.

You can't have it both ways, David.  If it's "sleazy" for a man to go to an agency party, then it is for a woman, too.

The bottom line, which I stated before, is that agency socials (as Turbo discussed in his TR) are one good way to meet girls.

If it's not for you, fine.  But don't insult others, both women and men, who choose to take advantage of this avenue.

[Darth Vader]

I know Bucky very well.  See him in the mirror every morning when shaving.

Andrew was the first to blow my cover, followed by Coco, Billy and now the immeasurably wise  and venerable JB.  All fine gentlemen.  Seeing your names prompts some fond memories.

Hello everyone.  I am glad to be here and hopefully I can add something to RWD.

I like your writing style very much, Gator.  Can't agree with everything you write, but hey, that makes the board more interesting LOL 

I do greatly appreciate the civil and mature way you respond to the opinions of people you disagree with.  It's a breath of fresh air and a model for everyone here.

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with DV.   It is a very diverse world.  Russian women are not for everyone and I am sure the parties and tours are not either.   I happen to be someone who not long ago said I would never do another romance tour.   I don't have a bit of regret at eating my words.

I also agree with DV that Gator and I may not always look at everything alike but different opinions are what make these forums interesting and he has expressed his opinion with class.

As I think about it I think most of the discussions I have read here for a while have been done with class.   People disagreeing with ideas and expressing thier thoughts and ideas and not making personal attacks.  Makes you proud to be here.   My hat is off to everyone.  Well, if I wore a hat it would be off. 

[jinx13]

Maybe "sleazy" is too strong a word, but a tour is not something I would ever feel comfortable doing, and I don't think it's a good way to meet quality women. That's my opinion, and that's what this topic is all about, right? I'm not judging anyone, just letting the newbies hear another point of view.

 I think our ages also influences our thoughts on this topic, it seems like a lot of the older guys 50-60 are more inclined to this type of meeting. Maybe they don't want to do all the groundwork involved to meet women, maybe it's easier for them to leave it up to a guy like Jack to arrange everything, just show up, eat, dance and meet some ladies. I know there is more to it, but that's the basics. Actually maybe it's not age related, just about your comfort level in Russia/Ukraine and what you can do on your own. I just know when I think about 'Socials' or 'tours' whatever you wanna call it, It sounds bad to me, I wanted to say "cheesy" but don't want to offend anybody else   

 There is also the type that believe the most expensive way, is the best way. I actually love this mentality because I am in the retail business    my favorite type of customers!!! but in this type of endeavor, throwing money around is not always the best way to find what your looking for, actually it can attract exactly what you're NOT looking for. I met my girlfriend in a very 'cheap' way, but are we any less happy because of it? I know maybe I got lucky, but I have heard of many other men meeting some very nice women in the same way, not spending thousands of dollars on tours, and then having nothing to show for it, again, and again.

 I would agree about Gator, I like reading his posts, and pretty much agree with everything he writes.

[Turboguy]

Your posts have been good and about the issues as things should be as well Jinx.   I may disagree with you on some issues but I think the conversation brings out some good points and is a benefit to everyone.

About the age thing.   When it comes to big agency tours I have to agree to a point.   There were a number of older guys and guys who are not quite at the top of the AM food chain ladder as well as some very good guys.

As far as Jack's tour I was possibly the only one over 50, maybe one other guy.   Most of the rest were late 30's and 40's    The age difference was why Jack did me a little different and I had my own table.   The 40 year olds were not too interested in meeting gals in their early and late 40's and Jack did not think the gals in their 20's would be too interested in meeting me and vice versa.

As far as throwing money around, I think most of the guys were not real budget conscious.   Two of the guys bought $ 2000.00 worth of roses and passed them out on the streets to gals who appealed to them.   The one also probably passed out another $ 1000.00 worth of roses to each gal he met with.   The last I heard it did not get them too far.   One of the photos I wish I had to post was really a lark.   It was supposed to show how they were keeping the roses healthy and watered.  It was roses in a toilet.   Actually some guys got into his room and staged it as well as spreading rose pedals all over.

I have to agree as far as the big agency's about the comfort level.  Jack does most of his recruiting on the forums and the guys tend to be rather savvy for the most part.   I think most just want to meet as many good candidates as possible in the shortest possible time.

As far as meeting women in a cheap way, no one is much cheaper than me until I tried Jack's tour.  Mostly I was writing gals through FreePersonals, and Elena's.   When I found enough that I wanted to meet I would make a trip.   My trip Wednesday is to meet two gals I met through Elena's and one I met through FP.   Is that a cheap way though?   I met more good quality ladies in one 4 city tour than I did in 10 years of trying other ways.   Maybe spending a few thousand extra for a tour will save me 5 or 6 trips which will cost a lot more than the tour.

Is it Cheesy?   I think it is just another way to meet ladies.  It will work better for some and not so well for others.  Still it is done with class and the ladies are comfortable, meet a lot of men and are treated with respect.   I never used agency's in my attempts.  I just did not believe it was a way that would work for me.   I have changed my opinion on that and if I have to search some more, I would look much harder at using agency's.   Can you do about as much without the tour, perhaps, perhaps not.   For the most part, I think someone on a tour will meet enough extra women to make it worth while and I don't see any reason to feel it is cheesy. 

[jinx13]

I met more good quality ladies in one 4 city tour than I did in 10 years of trying other ways.

  Turbo, if you met so many good quality women than why the hesitation on returning to meet some of them? It didn't seem to me that you made any real connections with anyone on the tour, or that you spent enough time with them to make a connection. Do you call any of them, sms, e-mail?

 I agree, there are many ways to meet women, you can even meet Russian women in the states, as I did, it's much simpler and cost effective, that's for sure    I think my whole issue with tours is the that the mystery and romance is gone. How can you have a special moment with someone when others are competing for your attention, it just seems so clinical to me.

- Here I am, the big American, you want me, now come sit at my table and prove to me that I should choose you. You have a short time, show me all your personality, because I will be judging you alongside these other girls, if you are lucky enough I will meet you later, alone. Of course I will meet with others alone too, and you know it, but you should feel special that I chose you anyway -

 I know the women don't have to do anything they don't want to, or even participate at all, everyone is adults, and I can appreciate the honesty and straight forward way you are meeting each other, but I think every woman would rather meet in a more romantic setting and be made to feel like she is special, even if it's a deception. I think if you go alone, or even use an agency, most women understand that maybe she is not the ONLY one you will meet, but she doesn't want to know about it, yes it's a game, but at least it's more romantic. Some things are better off NOT in the open, and dating many women is one of them in my opinion.

[jb]

FWIW, I agree with jinx13, it is too much the "meat market" approach to my way of thinking.  I was introduced to my now wife by friends who drove out to the Moscow  airport to meet me, lucky for me she was curious and tagged along.   She has since heard first hand experiences, and seen reports from other women on the women's boards  on these tours, she let me know in no uncertain terms what she thought about that idea.  The way she described it is; 200 beautiful women, and 25 old, fat, ugly, uncultured men.  Sounds hardly romantic to me.

I'm not knocking what T/G did, just that I could never do it.  I've never been that hard up.

[Turboguy]

  Turbo, if you met so many good quality women than why the hesitation on returning to meet some of them? It didn't seem to me that you made any real connections with anyone on the tour, or that you spent enough time with them to make a connection. Do you call any of them, sms, e-mail?

The biggest hesitation I have in returning to see some of them again is that I have high hopes that the gal I have been writing in Barnaul RU is my gal.   I leave Wednesday to meet her.  If that doesn't work out I will also be meeting two other gals on this trip that are great cantidates.

If this trip does not work out or there are questions then I will head back for Ukraine the last two weeks in November.

You asked about follow up.   I am SMSing the one I called the Nose.  I am e-mailing the one I said reminded me of Cher  (not much resemblance actually though,  this one is much prettier).  I am regularly e-mailing one of the two I met in Kiev.   I am also e-mailing one in Kharov that I liked a lot that I missed and mentioned later that I missed in my TR.   Those are the ones I would want to follow up on.   There are another 4 or so that I have not ruled out but those are the ones I liked the best and seemed to have the best chemistry with.   I want to get my Russia trip behind me before I put too much effort into it.  Most of the gals have limited English except the one from Kiev.   I really just want to keep contact going until I see what my options are.

I think if a gal knows a guy has a choice of 50 women and picks her it would be a big plus to her ego.   Russian women get pretty good at letting someone know if they are interested.   I had several gals who had someone get me to let me know in private that they were interested in seeing me again.  

I don't think it is any less special than to have an agency arranged meeting with a guy at 2:00 knowing they must be done at 3:00 or 4:00.  They know they are one in a string of gals he is meeting and that makes it no more special and no more romantic.

jb, hopefully you will never have to do it.   I can't argue too much with the description as far as big agency tours but with Jacks I don't think it fits.  I was the only old, fat, ugly, uncultured guy in the group.   The rest of the guys were thin, mostly 40's, nice looking, well dressed and successful. 

As far as the big agency tours and the 200 beautiful ladies.   I would say it is more like 10 beautiful ladies,  20 nice looking ladies,  80 average looking ladies and 90 that could spend their time better playing bingo.   As far as Jacks tour, I would say in 4 cities it would be 50 beautiful ladies, 50 nice looking, 50 average, and 48 that were not bad and 2 that should play bingo.

[RESQU]

I think there are a few issues here that people are comparing apples and oranges.  First if you have not read the first dream website (Jinx) then maybe you should if you want to continue to think that Turbo's experience with that tour is the same as the large ones.  Second I really do not see it as much different than using an online dating agency here in the States.  When you use this type of tour (first dream) you are not writing the women for months, so there is no real reason for them to believe or think they lay claim to being your only one.  It's understood by all that they will meet several people.  Yes there are more women than men, but each man chooses 5 to attend the party and those 5 also agree they have interest in meeting him.  Lets not forget that there are less men because the men don't live there!  The women I spoke with said they liked that it was smaller and that there was a chance to meet other men there also, the possibility that in real life someone just catches your eye, instead of just looking at a pic and a short profile.  I think also you don't understand that there are regular dates set up(before and after the parties) with women you HAVE emailed and possibly talked to several times before your trip.  You do not HAVE to go to all the cities on the tour(again read and be informed) you may decide to skip every other one.  The idea as I see it is a difference between people who think they should meet many people to find the right one as opposed to the ones who believe they only need to meet a few.

[RESQU]

we all have the opportunity to meet many different women here in the states.  We pass them in the isles at the stores, at work, through friends etc...  That is the "natural way."  But if you decide to meet a RW in her country, it could be seen that this method speeds up the "natural way" to meet because you cannot be over there for very long. 

If you don't like the party's don't go to them.  They represent only a small part of the time you are in the city anyway.  whats 3 hours compared to 4 days or more if you choose in a city?  I say why not attend the party?  You just might meet someone and really click that you would not have first picked yourself, hey its worth a shot IMO.

[Darth Vader]

Good posts, RESQU.  But I think you can forget jinx13.  Just consider his name... 

Seriously, i have told him twice up-thread that my wife attended agency parties and her friends, who are normal, wholesome FSU girls, attend them.  He did change his description of them from "sleazy" to (I don't think it's a good way to meet quality women).  The girls I'm speaking of ARE high quality women. 

But having not attended an agency party, and refusing to listen to those who have, Jinx is jinxed, and is a lost cause.

But your words are beneficial to more open-minded guys, so thanks for sharing.

[Turboguy]

Good posts RESQU and DV.  I think it is more a matter of individual preferences.  Jinx doesn't like the concept.  He makes some good points but not ones I particularly agree with.   I think it is a situation where everyone has their ideas and everyone has ways they are comfortable and not.

I have made three big agency tours in the past.   My comments when someone mentioned them on the forums was that they can be fun and are a good way to get acquainted with travel to the FSU if someone is not comfortable with going there.  That you will make some friends with the guys going along but that it is not a good way to meet women.   

I made one of Jack's First Dream tours and came back saying I met more good, quality women than I did in my 10 years of searching other ways.   I have some friends and others who have said they were thinking of trying it in the future.  My comment to them was not to think about it, to just do it and they would not regret it.   

I don't think it is the only good way to meet women or that you can't trip over a good gal walking down Krashatik or Arabat.   I just think it is a great way to meet women and would highly recommend it.  I am not posting that opinion after reading Jack's web site.  I am posting it after doing it.  I am not posting reasons that start with, "It seems to me that"   I am posting based on having been there and done that and coming back impressed.

[FSUrookie]

What the heck. I guess I will jump in the middle of this one and hopefully I can contribute something meaningful. To me, I use these boards to contribute to or compliment my own research and actual visits to the FSU countries. Heck, after reading about many men on here debating when and how is the best approach to having sex with an FSU woman, It is obvious there are many different agendas and ways of thinking about the whole FSU dating scene. I must say though, any one of us must do the best we can with the time and money that we have at our disposal. I will say this, I am in the process of closing in on a potential marriage with an FSU woman, and I must also admit that I have spent no ($0) thus far. (She wrote me first) We have corresponded by letter and phone, and have exchanged numerous photos as well, and I will be meeting her in person soon. One thing many guys miss is finding what is truly inside a woman's heart, because that is what will sustain any marriage over the long haul, whether she is a FSU or American woman. Anyway, I take the advice of a friend to heart; look a yourself in the mirror, and pick your women accordingly. Yes, if you search long and hard, you can find a prettier and kinder woman in the FSU, much nicer than you could otherwise land in the USA, but always stay realistic and in the ballpark. Look at all the couples photos (from FSU) and you will see many couples who seem evenly matched, and a very small handful of old men who got lucky (ok fortunate) and landed a hot babe. If you are a hot (but older - 30s - 40s. etc.) guy, the potential for landing a very attractive hot babe from the FSU who is much younger than you is great, compared to the USA, where young hot babes only marry older men for money. In any case, you probably will end up with a better looking, kinder and younger woman from the FSU, than you could have otherwise landed here in the USA. But I do caution, I have met a few hot ones, but I have also met a few FSU women with mean tempers, and it doesn't take much to set them off. (I'll talk about this in another thread). Bottom line, there are good and bad woman in every country, and only the percentages change. I do see now though (from my own actual experiences), that the mystic over marrying a FSU woman is somewhat a lot of hype. But, there is gold at the end of the rainbow in the FSU IF you do your homework, AND have a little luck.....
So, do you go tour or one - on - one? Do what your budget allows. Yes, there are good woman both ways, but to me one - on - one allows for a more personal and realistic way of REALLY getting to know these women on the inside, which is very important.
By the way.... What is Jack's web site for tours.....I would like to see what all the fuss is about myself......Just curious.......

[jb]

http://www.firstdream.com/

[RESQU]

Turbo-

You are spot on with many of your posts and I always respect the fact that you always make the best effort possible not to offend others and not to act like your opinion is the way it is for everyone.  I myself and most of us here can learn a great deal from you.  I do not like when people post opinions here when they have no experience to back it up.   I also attended one of Jacks tours last summer.  more... on my experience later, for I have to call my GF now!  whhhhhpshhhh... the whip just cracked! LOL   

[jinx13]

 So let me get this straight, I shouldn't comment on this topic because I have never been on one of Jack's tour's? Of course any of you guys that spent thousands of dollars to go on a tour are going to say it was worth it, because you would never admit that it was a waste of money, and you still didn't meet Ms. right.
 
 I thought the point of this topic was to debate the different ways to meet these women. I have an opinion, and I let it be known. Will I change your mind? doubt it, will you change mine, doubt that too, but it's good for the people reading this thread to hear from all points of view. My point of view is that tours are a waste of money, and a very unromantic way to meet with a woman.

 Reading comprehension seems to be a problem with some people, RESQU, I know how the tour works, read what I wrote again

I know the women don't have to do anything they don't want to, or even participate at all, everyone is adults, and I can appreciate the honesty and straight forward way you are meeting each other, but I think every woman would rather meet in a more romantic setting and be made to feel like she is special, even if it's a deception. I think if you go alone, or even use an agency, most women understand that maybe she is not the ONLY one you will meet, but she doesn't want to know about it, yes it's a game, but at least it's more romantic. Some things are better off NOT in the open, and dating many women is one of them in my opinion.

 So what is wrong with saying that I don't think this a the way for me? I don't like it, call me a romantic, but it's just all too much in the open for me, no mystery, no romance, and costs way too much, it's as simple as that.

 RESQU, I recognize your avatar from the WW2 musem in Volgograd, I have the same pic  Volgograd and Volzhsky will always be special to me because it was my first trip to Russia.

 Darth, I'm not jinxed, and 13 is my favorite number, bad luck is good luck to me, I'm actually a very lucky guy!    I have a great girl too, we found each other in a much different way, cost me $19.99 a month on www.luckylovers.net, best money i ever spent!

[Turboguy]

Personally I think your comments have brought out some good points that may help people.  Discussion is what this forum is about and your ideas are always logical and well thought out.

I can agree it would be much more romantic to meet under a store awning in a driving rain storm.  I think the important thing though is not how you met, it is that you met.   I can't say Lucky Lovers is a romantic way to meet either. 

I think it is a little presumptuous to assume either RESQU or I have not met our dream girl on one of Jack's tours.   RESQU said he would post his story later and the jury is still out on me.  I have high hopes that I did not meet my dream gal on my tour because I really hope she turns out to be the gal from Barnaul.  If that does not work out I certainly met a lot of good candidates on my tour.   For mine to have worked out are you saying I should be a one date wonder or at best a 3 date wonder in the case of the nose?

I have heard good things about Lucky Lovers.   I would be willing to bet that not everyone who is a member finds their gal.  Anything that works turns out to be the best money you ever spent.

[Darth Vader]

Jinx, the point is that you went negative and said unkind things about girls you know nothing about.  

You asked  "So what is wrong with saying that I don't think this a the way for me?"

Nothing.  That was ok and even valuable to say.  But when you called the girls "sleazy" and of no "quality," you overstepped.

Expressing your opinion is one thing, but when you get personal and stomp on the feet of girls who choose to meet guys at an agency parties, the response had to be made.

I wish you the best of luck with your girlfriend (or bad luck if that is the best luck for you, as you wrote above)  

[Turboguy]

I have to think that most of the gals want to meet a good guy as badly as we want to meet a good gal.   I think a smart gal who is serious would persue any avenue that is available to them.   You never know when that lightning bolt will hit.   If your town has a party where they can meet good guys why sit home and watch tv.  I don't think it says anything negative about them. 

[START2]

Jinx,  I've been noticing many of your negative coments here. I noticed you said your lady/GF is from California via Ukr. Already here with GC. Did she come here get married and divorce? Just trying to put things in perspective  and wondering if you have ever been to FSU before now searching for a woman and do you have more than one opinion from one woman?
 For me the tours were never needed and my wife was never from an agency, but I asked her and she said she didn't see anything wrong with women going to a party. Can't really understand all the fuss.