Do you really need an agency?

[CaptB]

Just came back from dinner. I read this new thread by jb and wanted to be the first to reply..........gone 1 1/2 hours......a dozen posts already! I give my opnion.....but not what I would have answered had I been the first replier to this thread. First let me qualify that jb and I are friends.......lots oif history in this process.....among the original group of guys on the RWG. After having frustrated myself on the recent Tver
"soap opera" thread........I won't knock myself here. If I had posted earlier in this thread.......I would have (as I usually do when starting a new topic) set a few rules so the original topic would not be lost in a free-for-all. 25 pages of a thread that that had nothing to do with the original topic. My conclussions......not seeing either Maxx or Natasha responding to the thread: Maxx jumped-the-gun on making an accusation......realizing that someone may have enlightened him about something he missed in the letter writing process.......and now realized his mistake. Natasha may or may not have made a mistake and/or is/is not guilty of an unethical business practice. Neither has responded. What did we learn from 25 pages of text. Nothing. The original question was never answered.....let alone addressed. I think it was an important question of a possible problem (or not)......with "ONE SPECIFIC AGENCY".
The real losers are all members on the board who may have an interest in using an agency. It was a simple question......and could have been simply answered......or blatantly ignored. Either scenario would speak volumes about the agency in question.........and the extent to which care about "all" customers. But nothing was learned.

My friend jb and I will always butt heads on whether agencies are useful or not. He can't speak from personal experience......he has never used an agency. Most of his opinions are probably formed from his friend's experience (me). He only remembers the negative......and......HE THINKS.......I only remember (with blinders on).....the good. BUT IT JUST AINT SO!!!!!! I remember it all......and my conclusions are based on PUTING IT ALL INTO PERSPECTIVE. jb was'nt there......I resent any implication that my recollections are all rosy.....they are'nt. But unlike jb.......I can say firsthand
who and what.......were the negative and possitive aspects of the experience. My buddy feels for me......he was there for me during my experience.....I was there for him. Those things will never change. Lots of good and bad memories shared......over alot of years (seems like only yesterday).

I don't know if I want to frustrate myself by answering to this thread. If jb really wants this to be an "educational" discussion that will actually be useful......he could go back to his original post and re-edit to include the following rules give focus to the topic at hand. Other the topic is too general......and like many long threads on this board......as waste of time. My main critism of the administration of this board is that there appears to be no control of keeping posters on-topic.

jb's topic would be the basis for an "informative" discussion if it included the following rules:

           1) IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT THE AGENCY (A GOOD ONE) IS LEGIT AND
               THAT IT CARES ABOUT THE RW"S AND THEIR CLIENTS.

           2) THAT THE CUSTOMERS OF THE AGENCY WILL BE FIRST-TIME VISTITORS
               TO THE FSU.

Why these two rules? Because many get the impression that "ALL" agencies are dishonest. Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion.....even jb who has never used an agency. But I know from experience that there are good, legit agencies. Just because a few folks in Tver (I personally know many of them) are having a free-for-all
right now does'nt make them bad people. But if they can't stop the bickering......THEY WILL.......scare away any prospective client.

Why rule 2? Yes.... we all know folks that gained considerable knowledge "after" several (trial and error) trips to Russia......and can now smuggly state......"I would'nt use an agency. Dozens of business trips to Russia.....and meeting a an RW (now his wonderful wife "I").......who worked for the company (Gazprom).....that he was doing business with (he, with Haliburton). If it was'nt for his wonderful wife "I" taking the bull by the horns........and his "Yooper" pal here in Michigan......putting a toe up his backside...........................he would still be wandering alone in the tundra. My point is.......an (legit) agency will dramtically lower "trial and error". There are those here that have made 10, 15, 20 trips to the FSU........but no success. You will learn dramtically more (less trial and error) on your first trip......if you use an agency. After using an agency.....I did feel like I could do it on my own afterwards. Hence the best use of an agency is probably the first trip.

If my friend can accept these two amendents......it could actually be a usefull discussion. If not......I'm finished.........I'll sit back and smile............as my friend (in good fun)................................stirs the pot. 

Capt B

[ConnerVT]

CaptB, I agree with a bit of what you wrote, except Honest/Dishonest isn't nearly that black and white. 

There are agencies that try to be honestly run, but there may be dishonest women in their database.  And then, there are unscrupulous agency owners who have sincere, honest women looking for a husband.  Perhaps both owner and women are honest, but some who work for the agency have their own agenda, sabotaging relationships or attempting to redirect attention to themselves or other favored women.

It makes the honesty issue a bit fuzzy.  Even with the issue of 'professional daters' and 'upgrade girls'.  Who is to say when a woman crosses the line from being very picky to becoming a professional dater?  If she doesn't like me, she's a professional dater, because I'm a great catch? 

If a man better looking, richer, and more chemistry meets the girl I've dated a few times (after all, I am 4500 miles away), and she dumps me for him, does that make her an upgrade girl?  Wouldn't most AW do the same thing?  How many RW suddenly don't hear from the AM they met, because he found someone closer to home that decided she would sleep with him on a regular basis?

When dealing with men, women, and relationships, all of these issues begin to blend black and white into very similar shades of gray.

As I said up thread, the way to make things more clear and be more objective is to deal with the new relationship one on one.  The sooner you can eliminate the agency from the relationship, the better.  Once the introduction is done, their job is completed.

[jb]

CaptB,,, Marc,

That isn't quite the way I remember it.

Marc, I don't want to get into the in's and out's too much, it was years ago.  Let it suffice to say, I felt you were used and abused by the agency.  You were so impressed with the smiles and kind words, you never saw the shaft coming.,,, still are to some extent since you still can't see what they did to you.

I saw the anguish, I saw the pain, I watched you agonize over what to do about a woman you thought you were in love with, who quite frankly didn't give a sh!t if you lived or died.  She didn't speak English and you relied on the agency interpreters who led you down the garden path with their lies, everything you knew about that woman was 2nd hand information from an agency interpreter.  You were screwed from the get-go by basically dishonest people.

Marc, you are one of the greatest guys I've ever met, I love you like the brother I never had, but you got screwed... It took me a while to figure it out, but Natasha Deeva and her cohorts led you around by the nose in Tver.  They would have done the same thing, with the exact same woman, to Maxx if I did not have a long memory and turned him onto to you for clarification.   Irina S. is a good looking woman, not doubt about it, perfect bait, but she isn't going to emigrate.  We both know that now.  However she is still the perfect con for the unsuspecting man looking for the "traditional Russian bride",  we only know they ran that game on you and Maxx, we don't know how many other poor saps got suckered in the time you were not around.

[CaptB]

jb,

Too tired to rewrite a rather lengthy reply. I just wrote one.....then a glich made it disappear. I'll rewrite tomorrow. I will give this brief statement:

"You are wrong about my feelings of my Tver experience. I saw friends being made (genuinely).....good matches being made.....and employees who really cared about their job and their clients. Many working "of the clock" with no pay....and not expecting any. I was fortunate.....I "learned". My whole situation was not positive.
But that was "me"......."not everybody". I still have good friends in Tver...in and out of the business. Because I finally saw the true nature of the situation.....I made the tough decision.......and cut her loose. If you remember.....days later I was relieved.....and possitive about the future. I bet you have the opinion that my trips to see the doctor were a waste of time...............I don't agree. I saw new places.....met alot of nice people. Some of the nicest......were her relatives.....who were very aware of her true personality. They made me feel welcome.....and at home.
I learned much quicker in that experience. Ultimately all the good....and bad.....lead
me to my wife. Just because some things were bad in each experience......does not make the "whole" experience........bad. Yes....I learned from the negative. Many let the negative overshadow the positive.....it blinds them from "learning". There are many bitter folks on these boards who choose to color their whole experience as "bad". They would rather attack the situation......rather than learn from it. My experience "overall" in Tver......was positive........................because I "learned". Learning is always..............a positive experience.

Capt B

[Albert]

Bruno says:  "KenC think that agency are needed and JB think that agency are a waste of time... both are right for themself... don't need to make a discussion about this since it is a personal choice... "

Bruno makes a good point.  What is right for one person is not right for another person.

So, despite some sidetracking, threads like this are good because they help those with little experience read both sides of the arguments/discussions.

It really boils down to the personality of each guy.  What is he most comfortable with.  Each method has pitfalls and advantages.  So read about the experiences and reasons of others, and then make your choice as to the method to use.

[Marc Dayton]

Nice post albert

I want to also add something to this post. JB makes a good point. I just don.t think all agency are bad!

But a man must know what agency he is useing sometimes he will use and agency that is well know for scamming a man. Why would he use this agency its simple its all about a RW he sees and likes on there site. He thinks he is smarter then this agency, and what happen to others men won't happen to him.

The point of JB I do like, and please think about this If an agency would scam YOU would that agency Stop any of his interputers from scamming YOU, and if he won't stop an interputer will the interputer stop the RW from scamming YOU.

Any agency is run from the top as the saying is SH_T runs down hill

[jb]

Actually, at the time of the incident I was referring to,,, Natasha Deeva and friends were all enployed at LTP.  I got the feeling that under Ron Woody's ownership at LTP things were run pretty much by whomever was in the office that day, and how they deemed fair and prudent.  This of course is the hazard of an absentee owner/manager.  While the cat is away, the mice will play.

One can only surmise that this same fast and loose management style may have transmogrified into a somewhat uglier beast when transplanted to TR based on Maxx's experience.  Others who have personal experience with Ms. Deeva will have to pony up to tell their story before we will know the "other page".  I'm still waiting for her to answer those direct questions put to her on the other thread.

However, the thrust of this thread is to note how easy it would be, and how much more cost effective, if a man were able to cut the agency middleman out of the process entirely.  From what I'm reading in other posts, if that money had been spent learning Russian at Berlitz School of Language instead of blindly being led down the garden path by a less than stellar agency, then those first wasted trips might have proven more productive.

[Marc Dayton]

JB I have a question for you, I know some one will blast me for this.

Marc was one of the men that Doc Woody and I worked with was not Marc on the RWG at that time.

Then why would we be so stupid to miss lead him.

First Ken C made a vary good post saying if I would have did what the interputer thought was best he would not be married to his wife of 8 years

Second what about putting your self in the interputers shoes. Do you think she is told by the RW I am going to scam this man I am going to get him. The RW is going to show the interputer her best side she is not going to show her dark side!! JB I know your a vary smart man, but can you say that you have never bean miss lead by someone you thought was a good person?

Ken C took the ball and did what was best for him. No man can 100% trust that the agency know all about any RW.

Sometimes we are fooled just as bad as you.

[jb]

Marc,

I can understand what you are saying, however there is a slight difference.  I understood Russian fairly well back then, even better now since I hear Russian spoken in my house everyday now for the past 3-4 years. I'd be a little hard to fool.

My comment was perhaps not phrased well, but what I meant to say is that it's possible for scheming interpreters to put words in the mouths of unsuspecting daters.  A well versed agency interpreter with an agenda can say something to a woman like,,,, "Hey, this guy has lots of money, why don't you get a new coat or a new pair of shoes for your trouble here."  Or, "How would you like a free vacation to the USA?  All you have to do is pretend you like him and file the K-1 papers.  It's not a big deal and you'll get lots of gifts before you come home in 90 days."  The scam possibilities are endless here.

I'd prefer not to have that possibility going on if I were just a newbie starting out.  You see, I know a bit about Russians and their mentality. You can trust,,, but you should always verify.

[Marc Dayton]

Yes JB

I have always loved some of the gift scams they amaze me from time to time.

The best one is I live with my parents they don't want me to be with you. Poor me what can I do I live at home so I must live by there way, but if I had my own flat lets say far away from them in Moscow then they can not stop are Love?

[Gator]

ConnerVt reminded me ot the commandment - Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.

When I first heard this advice years ago, I thought it was done as a precaution in case one may have been ensnared in the nets of a dishonest agency.  I think it has a higher meaning and that is to think on your own - to use your common sense to navigate the road. 

Over the years I have made increased use of agencies.  I guess I have  been  lucky to avoid the bad ones and I somehow have managed to take advantage of my experience to use an agency only for support - which they can do well.

[KenC]

JB I have a question for you, I know some one will blast me for this.

Marc was one of the men that Doc Woody and I worked with was not Marc on the RWG at that time.

Then why would we be so stupid to miss lead him.

Marc, jb is saying that the interpreter did the misleading not you or Woody.

First Ken C made a vary good post saying if I would have did what the interputer thought was best he would not be married to his wife of 8 years

Just to set the record straight, it was Clarke and Ray (the owners of LTP) that were looking out for my best interest not the interpreters.  They advised me against going to see only Lena.  Correctly so IMO.

Second what about putting your self in the interputers shoes. Do you think she is told by the RW I am going to scam this man I am going to get him. The RW is going to show the interputer her best side she is not going to show her dark side!! JB I know your a vary smart man, but can you say that you have never bean miss lead by someone you thought was a good person?

Ken C took the ball and did what was best for him. No man can 100% trust that the agency know all about any RW.

Sometimes we are fooled just as bad as you.

There are so many variables that can send a newbie in the wrong direction.  As you say, the agency may not even know that the interpreters and or the woman client are playing the "mark" er, um, man client.  It all boils down to the integrity of the people involved.  All the people involved.  Any break in the chain of responsibility (agency/interpreter/RW client) can be disastrous to the guy.  But the same is true for meeting a non-agency RW too.
KenC

[Rvrwind]

The same applies to my contact with the gals.  No English, no go.  If they are really interested in a foreign guy, they will be studying a foreign (to them) language.

I have heard this so many times & no offence but a typical arrogant attitude.
First of all, most women seeking a foreign partner have no idea which country he may be found, so how & which language should they choose to learn. Foreign language lessons are not cheap & most ladies cannot afford them. However, I have seen many that once they find a prospective suitor & know what language they will need to commnicate with, jump right in & scrape together every kopec they can to learn the language of their prospective mate. Some will never even meet a foreign man or have an opportunity to leave Russia, so why should they waste their kopecs on a fantasy?
When the time is right in their minds, they will learn & much faster than you could ever learn Russian!

[Stirlitz]

I cannot really disagree with the original posting although I have something to add. My belief is close although different. I believe that it is possible to use agencies, but the point is you have to be in control of what is going on. To this end, never put your eggs in one basket, that it is do not entrust all of your business to a sole agency. Which means that you have to use different independent agencies for different means:

• a dating agency to buy addresses and introduce you to women,
• a travel agency to arrange your accommodation, airport pickup, etc,
• a translation agency to take care of your correspondence, phone calls and in-person interpreting,
• a detective agency to carry out a background check rather than trust what is on her profile in her dating agency,
• a special agency for flowers and gift delivery (another means to check up),
• etc (you can add here).

Of course, you can omit anything and use only those services that you need, for example you can use a translation agency to take care of your correspondence but try to talk to women on your own if you can. (Dating agencies sometimes try to impose their interpreters on you when you do not really need them). Also you can utilize one agency for several purposes, for example a travel agency may provide an interpreter. The point is you must be able to walk away from any agency at any time without losing much, and the agency must not have much control over you, for example when you use a dating agency for correspondence translation they can easily fake up and edit letters to their benefit, so it is not advisable to combine such services.

When you plunge into this adventure for the first time, you may need many agencies. At some point you must be able to do without most of them. I believe that while it is a good idea to do everything on your own, sometimes it makes sense to have someone else do it for you. You can be good at fixing your car and home appliances but it may be easier to pay someone to do it for you, if you choose so.

So, just be flexible and in control of everything. That’s it.

[Darth Vader]

You see, I know a bit about Russians and their mentality. You can trust,,, but you should always verify.

Right on, JB.

A few weeks after my wife arrived here, we spent a week in New York.  We were walking down a street (upper East Side) when my wife spotted a beauty salon, and we stepped in to get her some conditioner.

She told the guy up front (he was about 30) what she wanted.  He called to the lady who seemed to be the owner and asked how much the product was.

She answered in Russian.  He blushed and told my wife $26.

When we got on the sidewalk, I asked my wife what the lady said.  The answer?  "$26 but you can charge them $30 if you like."

My wife thougt the guy recognized her as being a Russian girl.   I think she was correct.

Russians dig for every dollar they can take. 

[Stirlitz]

Russians dig for every dollar they can take. 

Er… are Americans REALLY different?..

[Bruce]

Stirlitz - in general, when it comes to money matters, yes  !  Americans stick to the deal and stick to the price.  There is no bazaar mentality.  Americans are looking to give good service at a reasonable price and get repeat business and or referrals.  Russian mentality is to ring as much money as they can get out of the sucker today, who cares about referrals or repeat business.

[Bruno]

Americans are looking to give good service at a reasonable price and ...

So, Bill Gate is certainly not American  ... and these numerous Russian who work freely in the opensource system are not really Russian 

[Stirlitz]

Stirlitz - in general, when it comes to money matters, yes  !  Americans stick to the deal and stick to the price.  There is no bazaar mentality.  Americans are looking to give good service at a reasonable price and get repeat business and or referrals.  Russian mentality is to ring as much money as they can get out of the sucker today, who cares about referrals or repeat business.

Perhaps you are right. But I somehow think there is no major difference. Yes, Russians can dig for every dollar… but Americans shop for every dollar they can save.

Another point to my view that Russia and America are more than similar. Like slavery which was abolished in both countries at the same year of 1861. The only difference slaves were black there and white here, but it is like ‘dig’ versus ‘shop’.