Inappropriate Matches

[Albert]

OK, let's try this again.  Regardless of what are the variables, assume any given person perceives a couple to be mismatched for whatever reason.  My question is why is it mostly the man who is blamed, ridiculed and said to 'get what he deserves' if he is taken advantage of.

- - - - - - - - -

There have been several threads that touch upon a common topic.  What happens when the western man and FSU woman are inappropriately matched?  Most frequently, the scenario is that an 'old, fat, balding man' is with a 'slender, young gal.'

RVR tells us that he does not allow such meetings.  But clearly such meetings do happen somewhere since people talk all the time about seeing such couples on the streets, etc.

The general comments are that the man is making a fool of himself.  But since there are two parties involved, why aren't we just as quick to state that the woman is making a fool of herself.

Yes, some women can state that they were misled through pics, etc., and it wasn't until the man arrived that they realized such.  But still, they do choose to walk down the street with them.

Other women meet such men at agencies, tours, etc., and agree to walk down the street with them.  So why do we always condemn the men?

Dan and others have commented on the ethics of business persons in the FSU.  Don't these same general ethics attitudes also exist in the minds of the FSU women re western men?

Here is an example of the mind set of FSU women that I am referring to.

"Can't you see he is just pathetic looser who was really trying to get laid in Russia and obviously couldn't. And remember what they say about that - if you can't get laid in Russia, you can't get laid anywhere. I was one of those "Russian brides" many many years ago, and went on a lot of dates with guys like that. A LOT!!! Trust me, they were all absolutely sure that all Russian girls will come running to them with their legs spread out as soon as they spot a foreign passport or a hint of an accent. Poor, clueless creatures... Still makes me cringe even thinking about their opportunist, "I'm-entitled-to-it-all-worship-me" attitude, their horny, dirty advances, their disgusting fat little fingers trying to sneak under your skirt. Yaaakkkkkk! Would make you puke, for sure!

But we had our way of dealing with those losers -- take them for a ride for a couple of days, let them take us out, buy us a few dinners and shopping and then ditch them in the dirt all hot and bothered. Hehehe, I know, rude as hell!!!!!! Of course I'm thinking we were awful then, but they all got what they asked for."

The attitude of this FSU woman matches very closely with the attitude of some of the western men who post on these boards.  i.e. that it is OK to take advantage of men who have overreached in their search.

My question remains:  Why do many condemn the men when an inappropriate match occurs, when it takes two to tango?  Why do the men 'get what they asked for' but the women are seen as 'being taken advantage of.'

[Gator]

Albert, stop listening to American women.  They are the only ones who say men "get what they asked for" and the women are "being taken advantage of".

[Bruno]

Albert, no yet tired to close a topic and start it again !!! If you find some post inapropriate to your topic, simply ask Dan to delete them...

If everybody make like you, in a very short time, RWD will be full of almost empty topic...

[Albert]

Albert, stop listening to American women.  They are the only ones who say men "get what they asked for" and the women are "being taken advantage of".

- - - -  -

Not true.  Read my post.  It is a RW who is bragging about it and saying guys get what they deserve.  And AM here often say the same thing.

[Vaughn]

Why do many condemn the men when an inappropriate match occurs, when it takes two to tango?  Why do the men 'get what they asked for' but the women are seen as 'being taken advantage of.'

Because in the majority of cases it's the man who waltzes into
the mismatch sporting blinders. Even if that guy's got a heart
of gold and the best of intentions, I find it tough to champion
his cause - the foundation was shaky to start.

[KenC]

Because in the majority of cases it's the man who waltzes into
the mismatch sporting blinders. Even if that guy's got a heart
of gold and the best of intentions, I find it tough to champion
his cause - the foundation was shaky to start.

Vaughn,
The old man may be foolish in hoping that it is all real, but he has no malice in his heart usually.  Not the same can be said for the young RW that is playing his heart strings all the way to a green card.  There have been thousands of posts here describing the acting abilities of some RW enabling them to mislead even the most discriminating man.  So why is it the guy to get no sympathy?  It is the scamming b!tch that is culpable in this scenario.
KenC

[Vaughn]

KenC, I see your (and Albert's) point. But I see a different scenario
that is commonplace compared to the heartless scam against an
unsuspecting WM: the guy courts a woman from a totally different league. They're both intelligent enough but she's more realistic and hedges on commitment. Then it gets dicey: He begins to devise ways to change her mind - with gifts, promises, offers (perhaps a fortnight in Vienna will make her see things my way?) He's getting desperate now, and might call friends back home for advice - but
he's not listening, he's merely seeking encouragement and approval. I've seen this happen many many times. By now, she's enjoying a steady allowance from him - and her girlfriends quip "What's wrong with her accepting help from a willing wealthy Westerner? Nothing - so long as he's foolish enough to entertain the dream, she's doing nothing wrong."

 We knew a man who eventually returned to his K-1 lady after they failed to marry the first time around. She was now about seven months pregnant by her Russian boyfriend and really showing, but it didn't stop him. He practically forced a new computer and gifts of cash on her - then, when it finally came clear that she wasn't going to commit, he posted some very personal photos and story on a scam site, then announced its existence on a Yahoo RW board - my wife and I knew the situation in detail - he scammed himself. If she was guilty of anything, it was her inability to say "no" to his lavishness. While their case might be an extreme example, I see dozens of "buyout" attempts by WMs for every one pure scam by an FSU greedkitten. Guys do desperate things - especially if under financial and/or vacation restraints coupled with the self-delusion that all will be well if he can just get her popka stateside....

  I do feel for the guy who gets scammed - and there have been many. But in general, I see more cases where the man cooks his own goose through lack of common sense.

[Jet]

I've seen this happen many many times. By now, she's enjoying a steady allowance from him - and her girlfriends quip "What's wrong with her accepting help from a willing wealthy Westerner? Nothing - so long as he's foolish enough to entertain the dream, she's doing nothing wrong."

This same scenario plays out a dozen times in any given strip club on any given Saturday night, all across America, is it really that much different?

[Rvrwind]

While their case might be an extreme example, I see dozens of "buyout" attempts by WMs for every one pure scam by an FSU greedkitten. Guys do desperate things - especially if under financial and/or vacation restraints coupled with the self-delusion that all will be well if he can just get her popka stateside....

Gotta agree with Vaughn on this one. I have seen it many times. In fact I am very close to one that is ending now because the man did that exact thing. Asked her four times to marry him & she turned him down, then he played the money card & started throwing gifts & trips at her. It wasn't until then she relented even though hesitantly, to marry the guy. Now 5 years later it is coming to a possible end, one that was forseeable by outsiders from the getgo!
It happens & my opinion is the same as Vaughn's, he scammed hmself through his own selfishness.

[KenC]

OK Vaughn,
I agree that in the case you present that the man is a fool, but it is still the woman that is allowing herself to be wooed by his wallet.

Richard,
Just who in the hell do you think you are, God?  Who empowered you to decide who is right for whom?  I see your position as an "adviser" not a "decision maker."  Good thing you didn't have the power or the position to make the decision on Lena and I 8 years ago because I am sure you would have put the kibosh on it.

What you see on the surface is not always the whole story,  There is nobody's opinion that matters about how a couple matches up or least of all "looks together" except for the two people involved.  You see, I have heard all the insults from this board and the other about how I supposedly wooed a young girl with my money and "saved" her from some desperate straights in Russia.  Hell, I have even been called a pedophile openly on the other forum but no one knows the full story between Lena and I except for Lena and I.  Our photo together has been used as an example of a "mismatched" couple and has been openly ridiculed.  These people sit back in judgement when they have never met Lena or I.  Just how valid do you think their opinion is?

In my mind, Ray and Clarke, the former owners of LTP played their position as well as any agency owner could in regard to Lena and I.  They warned me of the perils of having a young wife and prepared me for the potential disappointment if things didn't work out between Lena and I.  They even strongly suggested that I meet other women while in Russia (which I did).  But what they didn't know, or any of the people on these forums that have stood in judgement of our relationship still don't know, is that Lena and I had found true love in each other.

Some truths about our relationship need to be understood before people stand in judgement.  I dated a ton of AW after my divorce.  Young women by American standards.  Most were 10 to 15 years younger.  Lena also was never at a loss for companionship (Russian or American).  She typically dated men 15 years her senior.  Lena had a very good life in Russia.  She has two parents with good and prestigious jobs and had a bright future ahead of her with offers of an apprenticeship with a prestigious clinic in Moscow.  She certainly didn't need "saving."  Just the opposite was true: it would take one hell of an intervention to deter her from her career path.

As for me being in a position to "buy" Lena's affection, nothing could be further from the truth.  The truth is, is that when I met Lena my business (of 20 years) was down trending and my future was anything but a bed of financial roses.  Lena has stood by my side and been nothing but supportive as I transitioned from one business to another.  There were no guarantees if success.  Together we weathered some difficult financial times.  Lena's confidence in my abilities has been a Godsend and something I never ever received from my American ex wife.

I know this all sounds as though I am justifying our relationship and maybe I am, but who (outside of Lena and I) had the right to decide if we were going to be good together or not?  Certainly not any agency owner or members of any message board.  Are we an unusual couple?  You bet!  Are we an abberation?  Most probably.  But no one has the right to stand in judgement of our compatibility except the two of us.  And we think we fit together just fine.  No, much much more than fine.  We belong together.
KenC

[Sohkay]

What Ken said.

The proverbial hammer on the nailhead.

You go, boy.

[TexasBoar]

Well, I don't want Albert to feel compelled to start yet another thread, so I'll keep my "orientation opinions" regarding this subject to myself this time.  

But aside from all that, I have to admit I'm really baffled by this whole "out of his league" talk.

WTF?  ???

According to whom?  Oh, sure, if a woman's actual royalty, or an international supermodel, or a movie star . . . well, maybe then.  

But just because she's younger and prettier? Puh-leeeeeeeze.  We're talking grownups here.  Adults.  And as KenC succinctly puts it, no one else's opinion matters.  Do some young hotties marry for money? Sure.  And 9 times out of 10, the man involved is thanking the gods and ancestors---and his lucky stars---that he had enough $$$ to turn her head.  

Besides, I've known tons of young women who prefer older men here.  Especially older men with Harleys.    I've even known a few genuine hotties who like a big ol' chunky "teddy bear" of a guy, and some who think bald is sexy.

And "young and pretty" has a definite shelf life anyway.

Now, I haven't been on one of the tours or to one of the popular cities, so I haven't met those particular guys.  Sure, I've seen some of those notorious AFA social pics (as well as the much larger number of ones with totally normal looking men in them that the *g* club never posts . . . ooops, sorry, said I'd leave that out of this one.)  But I figure it's none of my fookin' business.

Only the people involved know for sure what they're looking for, and whether they're finding it.

~Boar

[Rvrwind]

Whoa up their Ken. I would be the last guy to stand in judgement of your relationship. I have met your lovely Lena & as far as I am concernned you are one hell of a lucky guy. I could never have succeeded as you have & I know Lena's feeling for you are real, I have seen it in her eyes when she speaks of you. I would never bring your relationship into the debate. You two do fit well, but as you said you are an aberation.
Not many couples can pull off what you two did. I don't stand n judgment of anbody but I do believe the facts must be broached as Clark & Ray did with you. Its not in my sphere or my power to stop one damn thing, but what is in my power is to point out the pitfals that could befall you & do 75% of he time if not more, after that, your on your own.
The only addendum to that would be when it all goes south, don't blame the agency owner & the staff or the woman for your choices which also seems to happen plenty of times. You were warned, you chose not to listen, take your lumps & move on.

[Son of Clyde]

Is there really such a thing as a mismatched couple? Ok, so the woman is 25 and the guy is 37, it is their choice. I will never judge a couple on age difference and appearance. if the guy is being scammed it IS a mismatch only because the woman was dishonest. You will find women in every society who like older men, who like chubby men, who like bald men, who like hairy men. It is only a mismatch in the eyes of those who choose to make an assumption.
I remember someone used a numeric rating system for their clients. I would be very hesitant to call a client a 6 based on my own judgement when a RW may consider him an 8. You need to skim below the surface because there are personality traits that endear women to certain men which is not based on physical appearances. 

[TexasBoar]

It's all about game. 

And chemistry.

I'm no Casanova, and no underwear model, but over the years I've perfected a low-key, friendly approach that works well for me, that I'm comfortable with . . . one that treats women as people instead of targets of opportunity.

They like that, and age has never seemed to matter.

~Boar

[PeeWee]

OK Vaughn,
I agree that in the case you present that the man is a fool, but it is still the woman that is allowing herself to be wooed by his wallet.

.
KenC

Geez, Ken, what woman is not wooed by a man's wallet? Money is something that no woman can resist. The problem is that there are stupid men with money everywhere you turn. These are the guys who are creating their own problems.

Peewee

[KenC]

Richard,
When it is all said and done, the best you or any agency can do is facilitate two people to be introduced to each other.  Beyond that it should be in the hands of the two people involved.  That is where I find a lot of guys making their mistake in thinking that an agency can do anything more or hold an agency responsible for whatever ensues.

Texasboar,
Damn right it is all about game!  Some's got it and others just wish they did!
KenC

[tim 360]

There should be little doubt that money does influence many women.  Usually,  the guy with more money and all other things being equal will be the more desireable mate for many (not all) women.  Why in her eyes he will even look more handsome.  Its a nesting thing.

Marylin Monroe said it well in an old movie,  can't recall the name---but shes at Niagara Falls with her male lead and she laughingly says,  " Money?  Thats easy.  Money makes a man more desireable,  just as beauty makes a woman more desireable."  Thats close but not exact.  But,  life has demonstrated those words to ring rather true.  Tim360

[Rvrwind]

When it is all said and done, the best you or any agency can do is facilitate two people to be introduced to each other.  Beyond that it should be in the hands of the two people involved.

Exactly, but I do think it is also up to the agency to point out the pitfalls under some circumstnces rather than join the rah rah crowd & feed them all the hype that they typically spread around. If they don't & don't make it clear they are not liable for what ensues later, you can bet they are going to take the heat for it.

That is where I find a lot of guys making their mistake in thinking that an agency can do anything more or hold an agency responsible for whatever ensues.

It happens all the time, we have seen it happen right here on RWD. The agency typicaly gets blamed for the failure of the relationship. Sure you & I & many others would agree this is wrong but that doesn't stop it from happening.
Now please don't flame me for advertising as that is not what this is but more of an explanation.
I decided that our agency was to be marketed as an Introduction Agency for that very reason. We are not a dating agency, nor are we a marriage agency. The most we can guarrantee is an introduction, the rest is up to the two people involved. We cannot guarrantee a woman will date you or marry you & we cannot guarrantee the women that any particular man will date them or marry them.
Personally I think that is where a lot of misconceptions arrise when agencies market themselves as Marriage Agencies or Dating Agencies. In that name alone they are misleading their clientel into thinking they can promise something they cannot & never will be able to deliver. Is it false advertising, is it deliberatly misleading, I don't know, I'm no lawyer, but what I do know is nobody can make that decision but the two people who are introduced to each other.

[KenC]

Tim,
Men will always be attracted to beautiful women and women will always be attracted to rich men.  It is an instinctive and inborn trait in all humans.  I watched a show on sexuality on the discovery channel a few years back.  They took traits that men find attractive (like big breasts and small waists for example) and explained them in a scientific manner.  Big breasts are an easy one because it is obvious that a woman with large breasts will be able to feed her babies adequately.  The small waist was more of an equation between the difference between the size of a woman's waist and the size of her hips.  the bigger the difference the more sexy the woman appeared to men.  This fact was related subconsciously to the ease of birthing a child.  Men want to have the most beautiful mate to procreate the best children.  The women's selection process had more to do with the male being able to be an adequate provider.  Before it was based on the physical ability to hunt and protect, now it is focused more on the financial ability to provide.  So it is a natural tendency for a man to seek a sexy wife and a woman to seek a man that can provide well.
KenC

[Admin]

Exactly, but I do think it is also up to the agency to point out the pitfalls under some circumstnces rather than join the rah rah crowd & feed them all the hype that they typically spread around. If they don't & don't make it clear they are not liable for what ensues later, you can bet they are going to take the heat for it.It happens all the time, we have seen it happen right here on RWD. The agency typicaly gets blamed for the failure of the relationship. Sure you & I & many others would agree this is wrong but that doesn't stop it from happening.
Now please don't flame me for advertising as that is not what this is but more of an explanation.
I decided that our agency was to be marketed as an Introduction Agency for that very reason. We are not a dating agency, nor are we a marriage agency. The most we can guarrantee is an introduction, the rest is up to the two people involved. We cannot guarrantee a woman will date you or marry you & we cannot guarrantee the women that any particular man will date them or marry them.
Personally I think that is where a lot of misconceptions arrise when agencies market themselves as Marriage Agencies or Dating Agencies. In that name alone they are misleading their clientel into thinking they can promise something they cannot & never will be able to deliver. Is it false advertising, is it deliberatly misleading, I don't know, I'm no lawyer, but what I do know is nobody can make that decision but the two people who are introduced to each other.

Richard,

Just a thought - and maybe you are already doing something along these lines - but why not make use of the features of RWD to poll your prospective (or past) customers as to what THEY want/need from an agency?

In this way, you gain insights into improving your competitive model - AND - you may be able to use the information to establish expectations. In my experience, the most damaging situation is one where the customer has a different expectation than what the agency offers. It may not be the FAULT of anyone, per se, but the result is ALWAYS bad for the agency.

As an example of how you might put something like this together, consider the following:

What are the MOST important services provided by an agency?

* Personal Matchmaking/Counseling
* Recruiting Sincere Ladies
* Recruiting HOT Ladies
* Translations/Interpreter Services
* Email back/forth to Ladies
* Apartment Rentals
* .....

You get the idea.

It seems to me that if you can align customer expections with the agency services - and then execute well, the complaints against the agency *should* diminish. Again - just a thought.

- Dan

[KenC]

Geez, Ken, what woman is not wooed by a man's wallet? Money is something that no woman can resist. The problem is that there are stupid men with money everywhere you turn. These are the guys who are creating their own problems.

Peewee

Sorry Peewee,
But I disagree that no women can resist a man with money.  My Lena had so many opportunities with rich men and yet she choose me.  A young male photo model from Moscow that had money falling out of his pockets or a filthy rich guy from Maine that was head over heels for her for just two examples.  Nice guys?  You betcha  Rich guys?  Without a doubt.  yet she choose me.  Why?  I certainly didn't match the models looks, financial status or youth.  I couldn't offer the financial status of the guy in Maine either.  Hmmm?  What could it be?  Maybe it was chemistry, personality, morals or just some undefinable emotion called love?  Sorry, but there are still people out there with character to pick a mate based on love.
KenC

[Gator]

Four thoughts:

1.   The greater the difference in age and looks, the more time a man should spend getting to know his women and in establishing an emotional connection.  Compounding that is a language and cultural difference.  It could take two years or longer. And to return to Albert's question, a man not taking his time does deserve what he gets.
2.   Using a green lure to attract women could easily hook a shark.  Yes, it will sway many women who otherwise would not be interested in you.   Which begs the quesstion, "Why would a man want such a woman?"   And a man using the green lure would need at least two years of dating her to feel confident about her motivations.
3.   KenC wrote, "and women will always be attracted to rich men."  Women are also attracted to good looking men. Besides giving hormones to men, God also gave them to women.
4.      I agree with KenC that women can resist rich men. Well, at least women with class, intelligence and confidence.

[KenC]

Four thoughts:

1.   The greater the difference in age and looks, the more time a man should spend getting to know his women and in establishing an emotional connection.  Compounding that is a language and cultural difference.  It could take two years or longer.
2.   Using a green lure to attract women could easily hook a shark.  Yes, it will sway many women who otherwise would not be interested in you.   Which begs the quesstion, "Why would a man want such a woman?"   And a man using the green lure would need at least two years of dating her to feel confident about her motivations.
3.   KenC wrote, "and women will always be attracted to rich men."  Women are also attracted to good looking men. Besides giving hormones to men, God also gave them to women.
4.      I agree with KenC that women can resist rich men. Well, at least women with class, intelligence and confidence.

Good list, Gator,
I especially like your #1.  In truth, Lena's youth and beauty scared the hell out of me!  I never wanted a wife so damn young and so damn beautiful, in fact I wasn't even sure that I even wanted to get married again.  But Lena's youth and beauty were the only two things that scared me about our relationship.  That fear was overcome in time.  I remember asking the advice of a very good woman friend of mine regarding Lena.  I asked her if I was totally nuts to consider such a relationship.  Her answer was classic.  She said, "Ken, I would think you were completely crazy if you didn't consider it!"
KenC

[Vaughn]

Damn right it is all about game!  Some's got it and others just wish they did!

You, Ken, are one of the ones who got it - there are far more men
out there who wish they did. I cannot speak for Richard's criteria
in approving a potential match - but if I met a man of 55-60 whose
No. 1 expectation was a woman of 20-25, I have to question that
man's motives immediately. If he's simply searching for a good woman regardless of age, and ends up finding bliss with a lady in that range, so be it.

I don't see inappropriateness in age difference itself; risk, definitely, but not any taboo. Along with that risk goes the impending ridicule
by uninvolved parties which you and your wife seem to have handled well. I've faced criticism similarly just for having married a
foreigner. What IS inappropriate? It's an individual's judgement call,
and not etched in a stone tablet. Here are a few situations I've witnessed and about which I foresaw doom:

A man who sought a non-smoker finds she smokes like a chimney,
and pays little attention to his needs and welfare on his first visit;
regardless, he pushes a marriage proposal.

Another who's got 2 weeks vacation each year feels he must
return home engaged, lest he lose another year in the search. Which of the seven he's writing will succumb to his desperate agenda? Maybe the desperate woman in need of a rescue for her young son, in which case things might just work out?
Or the opportunist - who dreams of a life in San Francisco with her
very own GC, and who also knows Des Moines, Iowa might be OK for a year or two, but no more. Who's at fault here?

I see the inappropriateness in the expectations. Arm candy, rebounds from recent divorce, just a steady bedpartner, and "boy, am I sick of these TV dinners". Even men with available time and finances cannot be saved from themselves. One can counter with examples of women with ulterior motives - and I'll be among those to call a spade a spade. There are many men who have their priorities straight and their lives in order before the pursuit - sadly, they're outnumbered by those who do not. When things unravel, I look hard at the guy first before convicting the lady.