Just friends(?)

[DKMM]

I'm wandering into new territory here, but I'm sure some of you have been here before.

I had one of those experiences online with a girl where we just didn't hit it off right away.  But she was cool with being friends.  Well we all know that's a waste of time right?  Hmmm well we did meet for a couple hours on my trip to Moscow but it was basically just to finally meet the person behind the screen.

Anyways, I was totally enamoured with this girl but knew she was out of my league.  So I kept it cool and after my trip I sorta forgot about her.  We kept in touch, like one paragraph email every 10 days kind of touch.

After my relationship with my other girl I was into there fell apart, I talked with her about it.  I've heard that a good way to bond with a RW is to share your troubles with them.  In my case, it was girl trouble.  She was very supportive, in a way I had not experienced even with my best female AW friends.

As I mentioned in another post, she told me that she only wants to be friends with a guy for some time until she knows she wants more.  She's been hurt in the past (who hasn't?) and doesn't want to let her guard down for anyone until she thinks a potential marriage is there.  OK I tell her that I feel the same way, because after getting crushed by "St. Petersburg girl" I feel the same way.  This of course flies in the face of conventional wisdom around here that if she isn't into you move on!  Well I kept this girl as a friend for 7 months and now I'm finding myself talking to her 2 hours a night 3 or 4 times a week. 

Fast forward 2 weeks and now we are planning on spending 10 days together in the Caribbean.  She is paying her half (she thinks, its more like 1/3) and we are but friends.  So what am I doing?  This is my dream girl and I can't pass the chance up, but am I wasting my time here?  I can't imagine she would come all the way out here just to hang out and be thinking only friends would she?

I think its win win.  Afterall, she's really nice, funny and gorgeous.  And it will be nice to be there in January instead of Russia.

[William3rd]

I have a feeling that your friendship may blossom into more than just friends if all goes well. . . .

[Albert]

One can never predict what will come of relationships like this.  I was in one such and it turned out to be quite a disappointment.  Like you, the gal and I were just friends, but she kept hinting at more.  But she really just wanted some free trips, etc.

In your case, the gal is paying some money.  But since she probably wouldn't do such a trip on her own, she may still be just thinking this is almost a free trip or at least a cheap and convenient one.

There is the situation that some have referenced based on some sort of studies that if the relationship between male and female friends doesn't pass on to something more serious within X time frame, that they are doomed for never having a romantic relationship.  Something about seeing each other as like brother and sister or some such.

But then there are other cases we have mostly all seen where some long time friends do become married, etc.  I even know of a case where first cousins married (he and she both had operations long before to prevent conception) and were very happy precisely because they had known each other and been friends since age 3-4.

For your case, it is a real crap shoot.  If you can set your mind to accept her as only a friend . . . . then you can have a good time.  But I doubt that you can pull it off.  I know I couldn't with a hot babe near me.  I suspect it will be a very miserable time for you.

[Gator]

Being friends is the best way to get to know a woman provided:

-  She is being open and honest.  Women usually are very reserved about sharing their skeletons and inner feelings until they have been intimate.  You may have to open up first.

-  You control your urges and do not sniff around her every moment.  Do not make sex a game or even a topic.  If your hormones get the better of you, you can not wait any longer, and you do want to make the  - I suggest that you mention sex in the manner that Br'er Rabbit said to Br'er Fox,  “Don’t throw me in the briar patch”.

[Durk]

     Dk do not ever feel a girl is out of your league! You may be very surprised.
      We men are turned on by the visual as we already know.
 Women are turned on by your words or emotions. You and your
gal have already shared many things. She has already had a lot of
her questions answered through your long talks as well as meeting
you. You are more than just friends! How much more this trip will
tell the both of you. Go and enjoy but I would leave my scorecard
at home.  Play your cards correctly and you might get an invite to
see her at her home. Good Luck and just have fun.    

[DKMM]

Well then I think this will trip will be good.  I'm not planning on bringing up sex in any way.  If it happens its because she makes the 1st move.  That part is not really a big deal to me...

I convinced her she is paying her half, its just that some unexpected increases in expenses came up and I paid for them quietly.  Partially out of fear she might cancel and partially because I don't want her to think I have any expectations other than companionship.  She might be doing this because I'm the only person she knows that can go with her (and I arranged it, having been there before).  That's fine, I'm thinking now if we just go as friends so be it, I'll still get the experience of travelling with a FSU girl to a neutral court.  Plus she promised to teach me how to dance (I just started to take lessons) so I still come out ahead.  I just don't want to go into thinking it will be more and then get dissappointed.  Better to be pleasantly surprised if it does work.

Thanks for the pointers, I'm looking forward to taking notes for my TR.

[KenC]

DKMN,
I went to meet a Russian girl as friends that was far too beautiful and far too young for me.  We have been together for 8 years and celebrated our 7th wedding anniversary last August.
Good luck!  I wouldn't wait for her to make the first romantic move either.  If it is right then it is right.  You will know when the time is right/
KenC

[Daknack]

Ill be the pessimist.  I say your wasting your time.  First if you didn't make a sexual vibe from the get go, a woman will fast put you on the friend ladder.  I'm not saying you needed to do anything overly sexual to create sexual sension, but if its not there your screwed, and not in the good way.  When you visited her did you touch her?  Hold her hand?  touch her forearm?  If you dint touch her, and you go to finally touch her your going to create a reaction of discomfort because its not something shes used to at this point.  You DO have something in your favor.  You have had a TON of time in between for her to forget exactly where on her ladder you are.  You can essentially re-enter the social engagement semi-fresh, at least from a physical standpoint.  If you want it to escalate, be sure to show you CAN escalate right from the start

[BillyB]

 If it happens its because she makes the 1st move. 

Well... you do need to see if she's physically attracted to you. I wouldn't be so reserved, she might think you're not attracted to her, shy or cold.  If she doesn't respond well to your touch when you hold her hand or put your arm around her waist when walking down the street then she's probably not into you, maybe even ashamed to be seen with you. If she isn't physically attracted to you, then all you'll ever be to her is "just friends". IF she's attracted to you, you could put your hands almost anywhere... when walking down the street. If you're going travel a big distance to see a woman, you should at least find out if there is physical attraction although you shouldn't expect her to spread her legs on the first date. Don't be afraid to make a move. If she's thinking of you to be her mate, she'll be glad you're physically attracted to her.

[Sohkay]

DK,
Do you have any way of verifying that she's actually going to show up...that she's actually purchased her ticket?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what are your respective ages?

Sohkay

[DKMM]

To further answer some questions:

I only spent 3 hours with her, and I was fresh off the plane and exhausted.  We did the hug/kiss cheek thing on meeting and on departing.  I was not pursuing her romanctially when we met so its not like I had a chance to really see how she was responding to me. 

I'm 28, she's 21.  She has spilled her heart to me a couple times about how she wants to find a guy and what this guy needs to be made of...

I purchased her ticket.  that's the thing, I convinced her that I was using miles that were expiring, but i couldn't use them.  She thinks i used the miles, and was reluctant until i convinced her they would expire anyways.

[Jumper]

I can't imagine she would come all the way out here just to hang out and be thinking only friends would she?

if you are basing your hopes and dreams on  the above snip---

which  boils down to a justification /rationalization :
"well she wouldnt go on a nice vacation , if she dint have romantic interest in me"

i CAN imagine a LOT of other scenerios than her being romantically interested in you.

if you /or she/ never flirted , hinted, or straight up talked that there might be something else ,

then yes  she could easily imagine that you are as two people,
exactly  what you said you are - just friends-
and simply taking a trip together.

sorry but with the little info youve provided -
  you seem very emotionally invested (taking a big trip,, decieving her on the fundage as tyou are afraiod she'd back out etc )
  in a girl that seems to have made it clear to you that your are a plutonic friend, numerous times?


I guess i'm being pretty blunt, but honestly ,,
even two plutonic friends makle/female wil lgenerally flirt , or tease or verbally joust a bi tand have a pretty dang god idea of where they stand on the romasntic front..

friends that turn into lovers generally have a pretty good idea where its going !!
even when they tell themselves ,and others, ahh  it's just 'plutonic'

If you are on here asking, and dont have a vibe about it, chances are there is nothing to have a vibe about!

Hey - there are certainly tons of sitiuations were two friends spending some time together, or having  a few drinks,
 turns things a bit more *interesting*, and that seems what you are hoping for with your dream girl...

and anything can happen, and certainly wont if your not in the game! might as well give it a shot.

youve already started things  ,might as well pklay them out.



armchair quarter back,,
but  me, i wouldnt have played this game, this way..

this whole -letting her pay a third ,and the deciet of the real cost-
 is just a game , hiding from her your real feelings and intentions so she will come as a friend.
I would have flirted around a bit and see what responce i got , and if it was favourable ,
simply fessed up and told her that after we met,
 i was dang sure I wanted to see her again, and suggest the trip.

*shrugs*

[BillyB]

She is paying her half (she thinks, its more like 1/3) and we are but friends.  So what am I doing?  This is my dream girl and I can't pass the chance up, but am I wasting my time here?  I can't imagine she would come all the way out here just to hang out and be thinking only friends would she?

First you say she's paying half(she thinks, it's more like 1/3). In your last post you said you are paying for the ticket and she was reluctant until you said, deceived her, that it's free to you since you have miles to use up. The truth is she wouldn't be going on an exotic vacation unless it was a freebie to her, all while you pressured her.

To make this simple, if a woman is not ready to have you meet her family and friends on her turf, you shouldn't be ready to win her over with exotic vacations that you have to pay for.

[Turboguy]

My two cents worth are that you just won't know until you go there and see what happens.   She did say she likes to be friends until she gets to know someone because like many of us she has been hurt in the past.   That could be the stage you have been going through.

One American gal I knew a long time ago had a family friend for 10 years who even lived with her and her husband for a while.   Once she got divorced he confided that he had loved her from the start and in a very short time thier friendship turned into a marriage that has lasted 15 years.

On the other hand one of the posters here early last year was Joe from Virginia.  It was easy to see he was totally capivated by his gal from Russia who was coming to visit him in Virginia Beach.   She was coming on the premise she wanted someone to show her around.   He hoped the real reason was she wanted a romance.  When she arrived as near as I could ever tell she wanted someone to show her around.  It never amounted to more. 

At worst you will have someone who will be much more fun to be on vacation with than going to a golf resort with the guys.  You have your tickets and everything arranged.  Have a good time and hope for the best.  At worst you know it is time to move on.  Let us know how it went. 

[Kuna]

There are so many comments that one could make here but the conversation would need to be more interactive than a discussion board to do the topic justice.

All I'll say is that if you want to spend time with this girl and you can afford the ticket then go and enjoy yourself.  As for changing feelings, ulterior motives and conspiracy theories, I think the outcome will depend on your expectations.

If you've invited her because you've set your heart on a long term relationship and marriage, you might end up disappointed.

If you go away and have a great time, enjoy the experience, treat her with respect and attention - then who knows how it might end up.

I say "take the stress out of it, go on your holiday, enjoy yourself, treat her with the very best of intentions and take plenty of pictures to post here when you get back"...

Ummm.. Ok,  don't worry about the pictures but the rest stands!  

Have FUN!  

[BillyB]

There are so many comments that one could make here but the conversation would need to be more interactive than a discussion board to do the topic justice.

When you get three different stories from the same guy, how is anybody anywhere going to give him a straight answer to do him justice?

DKMM's first post says she thinks she's paying for half but the truth is all along he was paying for the ticket. The first red flag is that she is being deceived and he wasn't truthful with the folks here. If he wants validation from the people here, he'll get it by telling them she's paying her way to meet him.

His second post says "unexpected" expenses came up and because he was afraid she'd back out he took care of the expenses. Let me guess, DKMM is going to have to pay for her meals and room because she can't afford it. Again, she is pressured to make her decision.

In his third post he admitted she was reluctant to go until he convinced her, her ticket will be free because of miles he built up. Again she is pressured to make her decision.

Apparently her decision to go on an exotic vacation has very little to do with the man she is to meet.

DKMM, part of being a man is knowing when to and being able to walk away from a beautiful woman without ever looking back. Finding love doesn't have to be this tough.

It's really simple, you don't have to debate a woman endlessly to be with you if she really wants to be with you.

[jb]

It's really simple, you don't have to debate a woman endlessly to be with you if she really wants to be with you.

This is especially true with a RW.  If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, if a Russian woman likes you, you will know it.

[groovlstk]

DKMM, part of being a man is knowing when to and being able to walk away from a beautiful woman without ever looking back. Finding love doesn't have to be this tough.

Good post, Billy.

DKMM, I wish you luck but you'd better know full well that what you're doing is risky. She holds all the cards and probably always will. My single biggest mistake in my pursuit was to fall for someone who didn't return my feelings, and I know I'm not the only guy here to screw up in this manner. The danger is that if she shows you even a little bit of affection and you see a ray of hope, you will excuse every fault, every transgression, and every red flag.

Things for me worked out for the best, but even now after a few glasses of Jameson's I feel pangs for the two years and $10k in cash I blew chasing a phantom.

[tim 360]

Great expectations lead to great disappointments.  You have already made your plans with a girl you have said is "outta your league".  You paid the dough, now just relax and have a good time......without expectations.  And always remember that in this game it is the girl who decides just which league you are in,  not you,   Bon voyage, tim360

[Michelangelo]

Some girls will use the "friend" card to see if you are truly interested in her.  That's because so many guys have spoiled the FSU waters, looking for sex and no commitment.  In other words, the guys have not been serious.

So I've known at least one girl who says "let's be friends" as a test of serious intentions from the man.  After all, friendship is actually more important in a relationship than is sex.

BUT, and this is a big BUT--if she does not quickly show you that she wants more than friendship, you must move on.  That is, if your intent is to find a life partner.

[DKMM]

OK some things have been not presented properly and Billy got the story a little wrong.  Which is understandable under these circumstances because I was not clear in the 1st place, and it was pure laziness on my part because i thought the details weren't important.  Please know that I appreciate your points of view.

To further clarify, she was planning on paying half of the entire trip.  Its just that she started with an email spam ad and thought her ticket would be about a grand and the hotel about 500 (which we would have split).  I told her I will use miles and then we could split a better hotel (the original hotel was garbage) with the money she'd save.  So, in effect she is paying a grand and I'm paying about 2.  The truth was my miles were expiring on Dec 31st, and the unexpected part was because the miles didn't work when I tried a week later (ran out of seats, sound familiar?).  So instead of saying a week into the planning stage: "oh oops nevermind, buy your own ticket and we'll stay in the crap hotel instead of the nice one I've been harping about" i swallowed her ticket (which was about 1.5k).  And used the miles on my own ticket.

This is not a big deal as I am financially secure.  I didn't want to decieve her but unless things get serious for us, I see no reason to bring it up because it was my fault for promising the miles would work in the 1st place (took me a while to convince her it was okay to use them).  Also, she says she wanted to know how much to bring for food & shopping and how the prices for those things compared to Moscow.

I guess my original gut feeling is what I'm going to go with.  I was planning on going into it with no expectations other than a good time with a wonderful girl and hopefully learn more about these wonderful ladies from the FSU.  If it was meant to be, it will happen during our 10 days in paradise.  I won't push it but I'm sure the opportunity will present itself to give it a shot (a kiss on midnight new years eve?)

Otherwise I'm back in the FSU next spring.   

[vwrw]

JB said TRUTH.
And still I want to add more JB’s words I read just now in  “What Would You Choose for a Wife?”
From JB:
“A lot of men usually don't understand when a woman is giving off sexual signals to a man she is interested in.  Some flirting signals a very subtle and not easy to read, the man with poor dating skills probably never learned the visual clues, and therefore missed out on a lot of great girls/women who were initially interested in him.”

 I see in your posts some things which do not let me to say-“she is not interested in you.”
I think after your meeting she thought -“Of course, he is a prince of dreams, but I am not sure he is the prince of mine.” To be sure she is either right about you or wrong she decided to keep in touch with you if you do too.
I do not believe a woman could be very supportive with the man she does not care of. You said- “She was very supportive, in a way you had not experienced even with your best female AW friends.” I think if she did not like you she could say something like-“oh, dear, I am sorry of that” and forget about that.
Although…maybe she keeps in touch with you to kill her tedium and to improve her English for the case if a day she finds her English speaking prince and maybe “into” you.
DKMM, image you will never see her any more after the trip you plan to do. Do you still want the travel to come true? If “yes” then go on and enjoy your travel! Remember future comes from present time. Everything is in your arms. If you do so that she will enjoy being with you then I cannot see the reason why she could not want your common future. 
A little advice- DKMM, stop to share your troubles with her! Do your best to make her to share her troubles with you!
If she shares with you her troubles likely she will have the same feelings you have now after sharing with her your troubles.

[BillyB]

DKMM,

I hope I got the story wrong. There would be change of my opinion if she's paying a significant portion of her trip compared to not paying at all or very little.  Until a woman invites you to meet her friends and family for approval, you're a long ways away from anything serious. If she doesn't want you to meet friends and family ever, you wouldn't want her anyway. She probably doesn't get along with them.

Just remember, there's a reason many guys here say when a RW likes you, you'll know it. If you don't know "it" after this trip, say "bye" to her and move on.

[Jumper]

guess i'm always the cynic- lol

but DKMW did already meet her ,
 and only as friends as that is what she wanted!!
 as i understand it he was on a trip to meet another RW, that this girl knew all about, and she was fine with that, and met him as a friend.
if she was seriusly romantically interested in the guy, she would have made some kind of comments ,or move,
 at that time to show her interest!

nothing at that time, or since , has indicated anything would be different now.
it doesnt seem like DKMW has talked or flirted with her or lead to romantic discussions..
and himself just kept it as "just friends" for fear of losing contact altogether?

she hasnt  offered up anything to suggest *more* either,
other than agreeing to go on a trip and pay her half

( nice enough but not real romatic minded either? certainly more of a "lets just be friends move"?)

hey you have the tickets, might as well go have a good time.
but i would certainly count on it being a "just friends" good time and nothing more.

it could certainly be a blast if you truely are just friends!
but since deep down you do hold other feelings for her,,
 my belief is it  might be "ok" time,
but wont be such a great time for you if nothing more develops.

You seem decent , sane  enough guy, and should be thousands of RW out there that would be romantically interested.. no ifs ands or buts,
and be very into you to share a trip like this with?
my advice is learn from groovs mistakes (sorry groov lol)
and use your time and energy on someone who does have romatic interest in you , which is what you ultimately are striving for,, you dont seem to bve looking for "just friends" afterall.



also, if you want to actually win this girls heart,
 or even have a shot at it,

absolutely stop thinking she is out of your league!
 be fully conmfident that she is certainly in your league, and confident in what you have to offer as a person and man in a relationship with her.

if she isnt into you, or doesnt feel you are that one special person for her life, thats understandable? lots of people in the world cross paths that arent going to become involved in a relationship.
but it does NOT mean you are *not in her league*
thats a  fatally flawed mindset from the start. IMHO.

being  confident you are in her league , (an absolute MUST to win any normal womans heart IMHO)
 does not mean it shouldnt be tempered by a  realistic evaluation on your part of whether she is into you.
. and you are the one who knows her and can tell this..



hey i certaiunly cant blame you for taking a shot at your *dream girl*..
but you have met, sas friends only,
and she did keep it as *just friends*,
 and on top of that you havnt made any moves romatically,spoken of your feelings for her,  to her,
  and you dont thinks shes in your league..

that formula is rife for heartbreak..

do what you can to up the odds,
very first of which is to be dang sure in your mindset that she is attainable, that you have plenty to offer as a person that she would be interested in sharing life with..
*shrugs*

anyone might hit the lottery,
but you sure have to buy a ticket first..and maybe several tickets.

 being sure you are a man she finds interesting, being confident she is in your league,, is the first ticket bought.

good luck.

[DKMM]

Once again posting on here gave me many great minds to reinforce or give me ideas.  Its so hard to find people in my circle of friends to do that with when they have no idea what its like to court these women.  And of course its priceless to get advice from a real RW, thanks vwrw.  My "friend" has shared her troubles with me, about not being able to find a man there she can rely on!   

I probably should have explained how this all started.  I had been talking to her about coming out this winter to visit.  She would have been my first stop so to speak then I'd go to other cities to visit other girls.  Our understanding was we are friends and it would be nice to meet up while I adjust but then I run off to meet my potential soulmates.  She tried to tell me that there was no reason to go to those places and generally talk me out of it (yellow flag in hindsight).  2 days later, she sends me an email advertisment she got about taking a trip to the carib and wanted to know if I'd go.

The trip was her idea and that's what made me wonder what her intentions were, especially as it would be at the expense of seeing other girls.  It really caught me off guard as I thought she didn't even consider me close enough of a friend to go with her (thus why I'm bouncing it around on here).  Surely she has other friends that she knows better than me that she could have asked... but maybe not since she comes from much better financial situation than most people there.