Quandary – Choosing between two Women

[Gator]

The time has come for me to make a life changing decision - I must choose between two women about marriage.  In most quandaries I can eventually determine what I should do.  This time I am so blinded by emotion and sentiment that I can not see straight. Plus the situation is complicated.  And the clock goes “tick, tick, tick.”

So guys (and ladies too), please help me with a list of questions to ask the two women and myself so I can sort this out.  Here are some facts:

Woman Number 1

My ex-fiancée is back.  We had three wonderful and calm years, including a K-1.  We were very close in spirit and communicated excellently.  She is honest with good values.  So why the breakup?  Age!  Age is not just a number when there is a 31-year difference!

The age problem manifests itself in more than physical parameters - we were at different stages of life, such as she wanted to work and I wanted to enjoy the Golden Years.  In summary, I would hold her back now and it would become worse in the future.  Her character is such that she would stay in my declining years, yet it would not be good for her - I would be stealing her happiness.    She seemingly would be much happier building a life with a younger man.  So I set her free to find him.


After Our Breakup

She was hurt and so was I.  She was also angry because she wanted to get married and felt as if she wasted three years with me.  I took care of her for a few months after the breakup until she got a job, and she started meeting Western and Russian men.  We continued to talk frequently, and twice I spent a few days with her on a Platonic basis (when making trips through Russia).  Without sex, our relationship became even closer, to the point she now calls me her “best friend” (this is very precious feeling to share with a woman, contrary to some posts made elsewhere).  She helped me with RW, even calling my current girlfriend to resolve a misunderstanding.

Her Current Status

It was inevitable that she would find someone.  He is a Euro, a young man (only six years older than her), good looking, makes big money, good at sex… And, he loves her.  They have been together 4 times, and he has asked her to marry him.

Short version of her response to him: “maybe”.  Last week to me:  “If you do not marry me, I will marry the Euro.” 

I thought at first this was a case of cold feet.  This week she is adamant that she wants me, not him. 

Woman Number 2

Meanwhile I have a new FSU girlfriend, a tall Cossack.  She is a fascinating and elegant woman.  And being only 21 years my junior, she is closer to an “appropriate age.”  

She and I have been together 3 times for total of about 30 days.  This is not much time in my opinion, compounded by her lack of English.   Even with her weak English, we communicate readily and have more fun than should be possible.  I feel something special about her even though we still have so much to learn.

Her Current Status

The Cossack has said that she would not marry anyone unless she loved him.  Answering my question whether she loved me, she replied “chut chut” (so so, a little).  I love honesty in a woman except when the answer is not what I want to hear. 

Our relationship will not grow closer if she continues to work.  She has too little time to meet with me and to learn English.  Last week she offered to quit her job and spend extended time with me.  When I asked her how did we advance from “chut chut” love to living with me, she said she is confident that everything good will happen.

Quitting her job is no guarantee that I will win her heart.  She is not desperate to leave her country because she put away some money from her fashion modeling career and today makes above average money.  I also have competition - a wealthy Russian suitor her age, but she does not like his ways.  I told her we can make a final decision when meeting at New Year’s.

What to Do?  

So those are my two choices.  I am closer to one woman as I have ever been with any woman, including my ex-wife of 25 years.  She is honest and sincere; however, a huge age gap separates us in multiple ways.  The other woman is still unknown to me, yet the times with her are great and the age difference almost appropriate.  And she and I are at the same lifestyle stages. 

What questions should I be asking?  Two obvious questions to the ex-fiancee are, “What has changed, because I am still 31 years older than you?” and “Are you running away from him or running to me?” Then there are questions to me such as, “Is sentiment clouding my thinking”? 

[Sohkay]

Gator,
A couple of questions to ask yourself come to mind.

1) Who do I love more?

2) Should I be marrying either...right now?

This just off the top of my head. If anything else comes to mind, I'll post it.

Good luck,
Sohkay

[BillyB]

Gator,

Tough choice to make but at least it's good you have choices.

I'm skeptical about the ultimatum your old flame has made. It seems she had to test the water a little more. Is she coming back to you because you are a great guy or you are just a little better than what she's found so far? Could she get back up and leave again if ohter opportunities present themselves? The fact that she is considering marrying Euro man when he's not her first choice at the moment is disturbing.

Woman #2 has potential but it seems she won't be heartbroken if you got back with woman #1. If she loves you, she would be heatbroken. But I respect the woman for not marrying any man she doesn't love as woman #1with Euro man. It shows she's got standards she won't go below.

I had an easy time choosing my finacee over other beautiful women. She opened up to me and put forth much more effort in our correspondence that I didn't feel guilty saying goodbye to the others that hoped to meet me.

Gator, pick the woman who you think is going to be with you for the long haul and mature enough to accept her decision with no regrets.

[jb]

gator, (bucky)

I'm sure I don't have any real answers for you, you are faced with tough choices. 

Woman #1
All I can say for sure is 31 years is a huge stretch, proceed with extreme caution as you mull that one over.  I suspect the reason she's decided to come back into the picture is that she learned after the fact how much she cares about you.  Take your pick, either can be true: "Absence makes the heart grow fonder", or also true: "Absence makes the heart go wander".  She also realizes now that she might lose you forever to Woman #2.  I don't view her words so much as an ultimatum as it is a cry for understanding.  Try to think about what her possible motivation might be.  That motivation might actually be true love.  Also think about a possible compromise regards the career question for her, would it be such a bad thing if she did find a job she loves in the US...  That's not a question, but something you need to get your mind around if you decided to go down that path.  A lot of what marriage is about is meeting somewhere in the middle.

Woman #2
Sounds nice, looks pretty good for an old bag pushing her 40's, and as you say, she is a little more age appropriate. However, she isn't wildly crazy about the whole move thing.  Also the "L" words seems hard for her.  Understanding of course, the future relationship building phase may fail anyway.  Is it a question of a bird in the hand, or the bird in the bush?

What is also important is how you feel about these women.  I hope for the sake of the ladies you don't reduce this down to a simple coin toss.  They deserve better than that.  I know that you were a hugely successful business man, now retired.  Those "Golden Years" are well earned.  It would be very nice to have someone to share the fruits of that retirement.  I know how that goes, doing social things as a single just flat out sucks, being a third wheel is the pits.

I'm inclined to choose door #1 and make a few minor adjustments for the job thingy, but door #2 has a lot of appeal that is hard to ignore. 

Tough choice....

P.S. In this case you don't even have the option of being shallow and crass, both women have youth, beauty and hot bodies.  Which makes it even tougher on an old man.

[Michelangelo]

I'm on my blackberry so I'll be brief.

Gator, it's clear to me.  #1 is the girl for you.

[SANDRO43]

I took care of her for a few months after the breakup until she got a job, and she started meeting Western and Russian men.  We continued to talk frequently, and twice I spent a few days with her on a Platonic basis (when making trips through Russia).  Without sex, our relationship became even closer, to the point she now calls me her “best friend” (this is very precious feeling to share with a woman, contrary to some posts made elsewhere).  She helped me with RW, even calling my current girlfriend to resolve a misunderstanding.

Terrible quandary, Gator. Did #1 have a happy family life in her growing years, particularly with her father ? I do not want to play Freud here, but might anything make you suspect she sees you as a sort of ersatz father figure ? Just my 2 Pfennigs.

[Vaughn]

In summary, I would hold her back now and it would become worse in the future.  Her character is such that she would stay in my declining years, yet it would not be good for her - I would be stealing her happiness.    She seemingly would be much happier building a life with a younger man.  So I set her free to find him.

Gator, I keep coming back to this conclusion - and I'm feeling
it's your answer. Has anything much changed since the initial
breakup, other than your platonic closeness? This might come
off sentimental, but I've got a few platonic relationships where
a marriage was possible - but one or the other saw clear to put
on the brakes. So the friendship continues ad infinitum, and one
or both might wonder what could have been. This isn't a bad thing
considering I don't read "fire" in your desire for this woman...and I
would be more swayed had she told you she'd rejected the Euro's
proposal since you were still unmarried...

The Cossack sounds intriguing, but as you said, she's still a
stranger, albeit a willing one with the offer of extended time.
Let me ask you this: as your body begins to break down over
the next decade or two (I'm speaking only of general health)
how do you see each of these ladies dealing with that? I'm
56 - and my feet are beginning to kill me - other maladies are
sure to surface with time, but I know in my heart my wife's going nowhere without me. Just a thought.

[Turboguy]

I have to think about this more before I really try to say much but I will throw out a couple of things. 

A.  If the problem is that the age difference bothers you with the one who is 31 years younger why would the one with 21 years difference be at a different stage of her life?   They are both relatively young ladies who are likely going to want to work for a while.  If you are looking for someone to sit beside you in a rocking chair look for someone closer to your age.

B.  I don't quite understand what your wanting to enjoy your "golden years" (I think whoever invented that term went on to create MOB websites) has to do with any gal wanting a career for a while?

C.  You said you broke it off because it was best for her.  I don't understand that logic either.   If it is best for her, she is the one who needs to make that decision, not you. 

When you read the part A, don't read it as saying I don't approve of a 31 year age difference.   In my case I would be an idiot to say that.  It is not my point.  I don't see a bit of problem with it.

My quick pick,  gal 1.  She has all the good qualities and you know it.  Gal 2 sounds a bit more iffy.  I think personally that you were being overly protective and cared enough that you wanted her to have more than you thought you could give her.   She is happy with you, accept it.  She doesn't want you to protect her, she wants you.   I may have more to say later.

[Vaughn]

She is happy with you, accept it.  She doesn't want you to protect her, she wants you.  

I agree, Turbo, but does he want her? Only Bucky
knows for sure, if he can see through those "clouds of sentiment".

[DKMM]

I would go against the grain and say girl #2.  It did not work out with #1, and after 3 years you must have thought it out enough to know it wouldn't.  But can you live without her?

[ConnerVT]

I perhaps have a point of view others haven't addressed yet.

Basically, if you aren't sure which women is the one for you, it is likely neither one is.

I believe when you know it, you know it.  If you have to ask, you don't know.  This is hard enough without doubts and second guesses...

[Turboguy]

I agree Vaughn!  We can only go by what he says.  He said

"So I set her free to find him."
I am reading that to be that he broke it off with her because he felt it was the best thing for her.

He also said:

"Short version of her response to him: “maybe”.  Last week to me:  “If you do not marry me, I will marry the Euro.”"  

That sound to me like she wants him.  If he did not want her he would not have to post this.

The thought I have at this stage is take protecting her (girl 1) totally out of the equation.   Move it out of your mind and throw it so far you never see it again.   Now, which one do you really want to be with?

My other thought at the minute.   If you have to think about which to marry, I am not sure you should be marrying either one.

A few months ago I was in the searching stage and trying to figure out which gal would be best for me.   Right now I don't have to think am I picking the wrong one? Would someone else be better for me?  Should I go for someone with other qualities?  I don't even have a speck of doubt that I have found the most perfect woman for me in the world.  If you don't feel the same, then you might want to think about dumping them both and finding a gal who you know with all your heart is "THE" gal for you.

[Sohkay]

Gator,
You wrote, "The time has come for me to make a life changing decision - I must choose between two women about marriage."

You "must"? Is it gonna' be a shotgun wedding? Are you pointing the shotgun at yourself? Look, I understand your tick, tick, tick statement. And maybe that's all the more reason to give it a little more time. You don't want this decision to be the wrong one...not at this stage in life.

The rest of you guys...read....his....post. He's not asking you to make his pick for him. How on God's green earth can you sit there and post, "Well Gator, #2 is this and this, but I think #1 is probably your best choice." First, he's not asking you to pick one or the other. He's asking for help with questions he should be asking. Second, how can all of you know who's best for him? Do some of you have some magic power where you can know all that is in his head and heart and have his first-hand experiences? Of course not. Hopefully you now see how ridiculous it is to pick #1 or #2.

What questions can Gator ask himself and these women that might help him in making his decision?

I stand by my previous post.

[Turboguy]

Good point and you are right Sohkay.   I have to agree with you though too the choice he must make is not between 1 and 2.   It is 1, 2 or stay single for a while.  I don't think there are any magic questions he can ask the girl behind door one or door two that will raise the vail of doubt in his mind.

I think with # 1, if he as not talked about it yet, a long talk about her feelings about their age differences and what the problem she sees and needs for that she sees as important for her might be.

To me there is not that much difference in the ages of girl 1 & 2, so the same conversation might be good for both.

I think the real questions he must ask are questions he needs to answer himself about his true feelings, his worries, and is he really in love.

[jb]

What questions can Gator ask himself and these women that might help him in making his decision?

Perhaps not phrased as you like it, I thought that's exactly what I did, pose some food for thought.  He's the one mulling over the problem, not us.

T/G, I fear you are letting your success with a 30 years younger woman influence your posting.  Gator is not looking for Rah-Rah here, he's asking for thoughts to give insight.  Not someone making a choice for him.

[Albert]

Ah, this is much to simple Gator.  With Gal 1, you rationally decided before that this was not a good match for you or for her, for various good reasons.  Now, just because she is thinking of someone else and has told you she prefers you to him . . . . this has nothing to do with your good decision that she and you were not a good match.  The two of you are not a good match.  Let her marry the other guy.

Gal 2 and you have not spent nearly enough time together to be even thinking about marriage.  Maybe after 5 or so more meetings of a month each, then you can analyze the marriage thing with her.

I spent about 80 days total with a gal from St. Petersburg during a period 4-5 years ago.  Never did get close to thinking it was time to marry, and I sort of cut down the correspondence with her.  Meanwhile she started answering the messages she was getting from other guys to her profile on a dating web site.

One day I get a message from her saying the guy has asked her to marry him.  Very similar to your situation.  In next few days more messages from her saying she must make a decision soon.  I knew she was asking if I wanted to get back in the picture.  But I never bit and told her that I wished her the best.

She did marry the guy and moved here to USA to the state next to mine.  We continued to correspond on a monthly or so basis.  After a couple of years she was writing me that she now has her drivers license and was thinking about driving to my city . . . . if I would tell her my specific address.  I told her that would be too dangerous for her marriage.  Our correspondence dwindled after that and I haven't heard from her for over a year now.  I hope she has settled into her marriage.

Maybe something similar will happen with you and your Gal 1.

So let your Gal 1 marry the other guy.  And spend a lot more time with your Gal 2.

By the way, wasn't it you who wrote in another thread just in the last few days that you were 54 and associated with a 44 year old gal now?  Or am I confusing you with someone else?

[BillyB]

Gator,

Choose gal #3!

I think you need to excercise patience and let time sort this all out. If gal #1 really loves you, she'll wouldn't marry Euro man and wouldn't require you to marry her right away. At the same time you could see if something more blossoms with gal #2.

Keep in mind, gal #1 had her opportunity with you and what did she do with it? She could do it again.

[Albert]

By the way, wasn't it you who wrote in another thread just in the last few days that you were 54 and associated with a 44 year old gal now?  Or am I confusing you with someone else?

- - - -

Ignore that.  I see now it was Globetrotter that spoke of the 44 y.o. gal and he having a 10 year difference in ages.

[Gator]

Thanks guys, and I feel your wheels turning.  There is some good advice everywhere. 

Some elaboration is necessary to let you know where I am coming from.  Because what is good for me may not be the path you would take.

About Woman Number 3.  My so called golfing friends here also say Woman Number 3.  One phrased it this way after a few beers (so you know this is rich).  Avoid Number 1 - you will have to marry her.  Play around with the Cossack for a year.  Let her be first to mention marriage.  She will eventually say something.  When she does, ask her two questions:  who is she planning to marry and can you come to the wedding.  After she hits you over the head with a bottle of vodka, pick yourself up and find another woman.

It was hilarious to my other friends, but I did not laugh hard because I am not built that way.   Besides, the woman means something to me.  I have been “single” for six years and I am weary of it.  I had a fun trip to Ukraine in August, after the Cossack and I went into “time out” (her decision, not mine).  Instead of returning to Ukraine, I patched things up with the Cossack and chose to meet her for a romantic holiday at New Year’s.  While a bachelor life is fun, deep down inside I am a one-woman man.  My son leaves the home soon (yes, I am a twilight Dad), and I will be "one" then.  I do not want to be "one".

Someone mentioned that there is not much difference age-wise, life stage-wise between the two woman.  I disagree.  The older has twice the years of “adult” experiences and thinking.  I am sure each of us can recall how much wiser we became at 40 vs. what we were at 30.  I am certain that Number 2 is more certain about what she wants and that she will change less.  In my three years with Number 1, I showed her the world.  Her eyes grew bigger each year, and she changed (I should say “grew”).  Her daughters grew older and she became less concerned with day to day nurturing; she started thinking about taking care of herself.   She is far from being an empty nester, but she can see that day coming.  She is still evolving.

I may have misrepresented Number 1 when trying to save some words.  She did not give me an ultimatum.  It was more of a "right of first refusal."   She said, "I do not want to look any more for a man.  I have been looking for five years.  I am not sure about Mr. Euro but he loves me. So, Gator if you do not marry me, I will agree to marry him."  That seems more pragmatic and probably the way many of these RW think.

Yes, it would be neat to be able to go with my sentiments. The problem, both women mean a great deal to me.   I am very happy when I am with either one. 

If we talk about adult love vs. teenage infatuation, most men fall in love rather suddenly, almost by surprise.  They meet their someone when not looking for love (which makes this “hunt for a wife” in Russia seen unnatural to manly thinking).  In contrast, most women fall in love slowly and carefully, analyzing the man at every step.  Maybe that is why statistics say more AW are in love when getting married than RW.  I fear I am more like a woman.  So I downplay sentiment, or try to.  I am so old and had so many loves that I am unsure if I will feel big love.  To me, it is about bonding.  I bonded with Number 1 and am bonding with Number 2.

I am off to bed.  I have a golf tournament tomorrow morning.  I look forward to returning tomorrow and reading.  Thanks everyone.  I sleep in peace tonight.

[TexasBoar]

Gator, I just want to say that is an astonishly honest post, and a refreshing read.  I have, of course, zero experience in the specific situation you face, but . . . my gut instinct as a man is to "play at as it lays" with woman #2.

Simply put, #1 is willing . . . but the simple fact that she is able to consider someone else tells me she is not crazy in love with you.  Yes,  you could probably make a good life with her, and you are comfortable with her, even emotionally attached to her.  But why settle for that?

While I have often thought---being quite tired of single life myself---that simply making "a good match" would be sufficient, I know in my heart that I have one great love left in me . . . and I don't want to settle for less.  My feeling on reading your posts is that while #2 may NOT be that person for you . . . #1 surely is not.

~Boar

[Albert]

Gator, a question.  In this and other threads, I am confused somewhat about your Gal 1.  You mention three years, the K-1 and showed pics of her in Florida.  I sort of got the impression she was in USA with you for several years.  But that can't happen with K-1 (I don't think).  So can you clarify this?

[jb]

Simply put, #1 is willing . . . but the simple fact that she is able to consider someone else tells me she is not crazy in love with you.

Boar,

Since you lack that personal experience with the Russian Woman, let me give you a tiny insight into their way of thinking.  It doesn't matter so much to the typical RW if she's crazy in love with the man she wants to marry.  What matters is that she has made the decision to marry.  Above all, Russian women are decisive and pragmatic.  I'm surprised the relationship with Gator went 3 years without marriage, and if she has any reservations that stopped her, it's probably because of the 31 year age difference. She's not comfortable with that.  As good as the Euro guy may be, you can bet there is some offsetting quality about him she is equally uncomfortable with. If there weren't, she'd already be married to him.

Russian women know the value of having a good husband for the good of the family.  If anything is going on here, it is Woman #1 who is in the quandary because she has made up her mind to get married and she has two love interests that she considers worthy of strong consideration.  She is probably giving Gator the "1st right of refusal" because of the emotional attachment she has formed after a 3 year relationship with him and she recognizes the investment he has made in her and she feels some kind of emotional debt.  In her analysis of the situation she has two suitors who would make her "happy". To her it is not a question of "if", bit only "when" and "who".  She will marry. When she does, she will do so with 100% devoted wifely attitude towards making a happy home.  After all, that's what women do, isn't it? 

There are probably some other factors driving her at this point, for example she has been to Florida and seen first hand what Gator's home environment looks like.  I'll make book that she's also been to Euro's house and had a look at that place as well.  Both are equally acceptable, however she may simply place a higher grade on Florida because she's from Moscow and has already had a lifetime's worth of snow and cold,,, Euro's hometown probably gets cold in winter.  This is part of the pragmatism.  Whatever else is driving her back into Gator's life at this point will most likely be something similar to this kind of "Russian female" logic.

[Michelangelo]

...most women fall in love slowly and carefully, analyzing the man at every step.  Maybe that is why statistics say more AW are in love when getting married than RW.  I fear I am more like a woman. 

Well said, Bucky.  I read this between the lines in the initial post, and that's why I recommended women #1 to you.  You are in love with her.  She loves you and wants a life with you.  Go for it--and enjoy ever how many years you have.  Each year promises to be precious.

[vwrw]

From Gator:
If we talk about adult love vs. teenage infatuation, most men fall in love rather suddenly, almost by surprise.  They meet their someone when not looking for love (which makes this “hunt for a wife” in Russia seen unnatural to manly thinking).  In contrast, most women fall in love slowly and carefully, analyzing the man at every step.  I fear I am more like a woman.  So I downplay sentiment, or try to.  I am so old and had so many loves that I am unsure if I will feel big love.  To me, it is about bonding.  I bonded with Number 1 and am bonding with Number 2.

Gator,
Women fall in love like men do – SUDDENLY if they meet their someone and they do so in both cases either if they do not look for love or they do. If women do not meet their someone then they analyze the men they have around. Due to most of us have a need to love and the need to love does not depends on we have found THE ONE or not. 
No, Gator you are not like woman. You are like person who has not met his someone.
Do you realize what make you to be in doubts if you will feel big love AGAIN? No, it is not your age. No, it is not your big experience in love. It is absence deep feelings towards to both women - makes you to be in doubts if you will feel big love. And like the person who has not met his someone now you analyze the women you have at every step.
Also I cannot see your desire to be with one of the women. But I see your desire to not be alone. Gator avoiding unhappiness and persecuting happiness are different things. How do you think what you do now?
If the women were not able to cause your big love and was not able to make you to forget about others women it is their problem, not yours. Your goal is to find a woman who will be able to. 
   

[tim 360]

Alot of info is lacking which only you know Gator.  You know,  the one-on-one stuff. A bunch of guys on an internet board who have less info available than you do may probably not yield a comprehensive reply to your "must" marry dilemena.  Not to mention that men do not quite understand the words, actions, and motivations of women to a very high degree.

That said,  it does appear that you and  # 1 have a closeness which you may never find again.  You have much to consider.  Play through and go for the birdie.   Ciao, tim360