Quandary – Choosing between two Women

[Gator]

Turbo,
Communication is very important to both of us.   I never would decide this alone.  We discussed it a 100 times (no exaggeration).
She disagrees that she would be unhappy, saying that we will make adjustments if problems arise. 

I firmly believe that I am responsible for my own happiness and that my future wife is responsible for her happiness.  Hopefully we coincide, knowing that some adjustments will always be necessary.  The degree of future adjustment required with Nr. 1 may be too much.  However, I am still contemplating and we are still talking.  Seasoned observers are telling me little has changed from my original decision to walk away.   

[Gator]

For those of you who think Nr. 1 is "flakey" or playing a game of one against the other - not true.  She has great character, including being the most honest woman I have known.  My four primary search criteria are brains, beauty, SOH and honesty.  That last one eliminated a lot of otherwise wonderful women.  In her case, she is at the top of that category (at or near the top for the others too). 

There is just this age difference issue and how that manifests itself in so many ways.  After we broke up, I looked for an older her and she looked for a younger me.  One of her suitors wanted to know my name, saying "If you keep talking about your ex-boyfriend, I at least need to know his name."

[Turboguy]

Gator, I think if someone wrote a thousand pages about a woman and the relationship with her someone reading those would still not have the same percpective and someone living them so you see things I and the others at RWD never will. 

I also believe that what is right for me or any other person is not always right for everyone.   I still see little in what you are saying that indicates the biggest problem for you is anything but the age difference.   I still don't see that 21 years or 31 years makes all that much difference.   If you were between a 31 and 10 year difference, yes then you may have someone at the same stage of your life who wanted to enjoy the golden years with you.  That seems to be important for you.  I do agree that age and maturity are two different things and I know there were a few other issues with the 31 year gal that seem to have been mostly worked out.  To me a lot of what makes a relationship special is, lets say, communication and friendship and from what you have said you have that more with the 31 than the 21.

Still sometimes I think that neither may be right for you.  If they were you would know it without question.

[Kuna]

My four primary search criteria are brains, beauty, SOH and honesty.  That last one eliminated a lot of otherwise wonderful women.  In her case, she is at the top of that category (at or near the top for the others too). 

There is just this age difference issue and how that manifests itself in so many ways.  After we broke up, I looked for an older her and she looked for a younger me.  One of her suitors wanted to know my name, saying "If you keep talking about your ex-boyfriend, I at least need to know his name."

Gator,

Feel free to tell me to give myself an uppercut if you like, but I've been watching this thread and I'm becoming troubled.

I don't have the experience with RW that you have but i have got broad and deep experiences in relationships.

If you were looking for an "older her" and she was looking for a "younger you" maybe your both torturing yourselves over something that just happens to be one of those crappy jokes life plays on us.

You're analysing something that may be the biggest decision on your life, so it deserves intense scrutiny, but there's two ways to analyse a situation.  At the moment I think you're being subjective, whereas my nature (and training) forces me to use more logic...  Can I suggest something?

1. Forget about the specific women in question for a moment;
2. List your "Key Selection Criteria" (beauty, brains, SOH, honesty);
3. Weight those criteria if some are more important than others (everything starts with a weighting of 100% but if something like honesty is more important to you than beauty you might want to increase honesty's weighting to 120%... and so on);
4. Logically assess how each "scores" against your KSC (rating of 1 - 10, 10 being the highest);
5. Multiply it out to get a final score for each lady;
6. Consider risk mitigation only as the last step (i.e. The things that are potential risks need plans to mitigate those risks).

EG:
Beauty Rating is [Weighting of 110%] x [score of 8] = 8.8
Brains Rating is [Weighting of 100%] x [score of 8] = 8
SOH Rating is [Weighting of 110%] x [score of 9] = 9.9
Honesty is [Weighting of 120%] x [score of 10] = 12

Add some others if you like:

  Good Table Manners is [Weighting of 100%] x [score of 9] = 9
Good current relationships with her family and friends is [Weighting of 100%] x [score of 7] = 7
Freedom to Communicate your wants and needs is [Weighting of 110%] x [score of 9] = 9.9
Looks good in a convertible is [Weighting of 50%] x [score of 10] = 5
Doesn't burp after eating is [Weighting of 200%] x [score of 6] = 12

Total Score Girl #1 = X.X
Total Score Girl #2 = X.X

I'm not trying to turn this into a consulting project but it might help you organise you thoughts without letting your fears and fantasies get in the way.

To be honest with you... while your concern over age is real, I think the biggest challenge that age presents is probably poor communication and lack of common interests.

To predict the impact age will have in future is unfair because it doesn't account for unexpected life issues that might come up that aren't even associated with her age. (Accidents, health crisis',  bereavement, economic catastrophe in your hometown)

I'm not saying "go with #1" because only you know what is best...  I'm just suggesting that applying some logic will take away the "what ifs" that you might be struggling with at the moment.

Best of luck!

Kuna

[SANDRO43]

Good ideas, Huna, we could turn this into a KSC Card (similar to the Scam Card in concept, but with personally-selectable weights), if anybody is interested in having such a tool available here.

[BillyB]

There's so many factors to all of this I don't think a score card is going to solve it. Gator has had 3+ years of acceptable, if not exceptional, sexual relations with gal #1. It would take some time for gal #2 to catch up and make it a level playing field in this area of concern.

Also, there are two people in most normal relationships who gets to make a decision, not just one. What does the women think of the man? No matter if gal #2 beats gal #1 by double the score. If gal #2 thinks only half as much of the man as does gal #1, then he would be starving for attention if he got hooked up with gal #2 compared to gal #1. In this case it would be does a man want to be loved more than he loves or does he want to love more than he wants to receive. It's hard to find any relationship where love is 50/50.

[IAmZon]

Dear Gator,

How happy I am to offer you advice for a change!

I would advise the choice - NIETHER.   

"To thyn own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, the day the night ... only only then thoust canst be false to know man. (Some passage from Shakespeare I enjoy referencing)

You made a clear minded and noble choice with woman #1.  Have the strength to stick with it.  Enjoy her friendship ... and her yours.

Woman #2:  If you ain't excited, you ain't invited. 

There is no room for the faint of heart in the proposition marriage.  It is not ALL good.  Half measures will not do. 

Do not tire, my new friend  ... keep looking

[SANDRO43]

There's so many factors to all of this I don't think a score card is going to solve it.

BillyB, I dild not intend it as an aid to Gator for solving his quandary, he's experienced enough not to need something like that, but for all and sundry. Since it could be developed using everybody's input, it would also be interesting in that it would show what "this half" wants. Anyway, just an idea.

[Kuna]

There's so many factors to all of this I don't think a score card is going to solve it. Gator has had 3+ years of acceptable, if not exceptional, sexual relations with gal #1. It would take some time for gal #2 to catch up and make it a level playing field in this area of concern.

Also, there are two people in most normal relationships who gets to make a decision, not just one. What does the women think of the man? No matter if gal #2 beats gal #1 by double the score. If gal #2 thinks only half as much of the man as does gal #1, then he would be starving for attention if he got hooked up with gal #2 compared to gal #1. In this case it would be does a man want to be loved more than he loves or does he want to love more than he wants to receive. It's hard to find any relationship where love is 50/50.

Good points BillyB, and those things should be consdiered when putting together the KSC.  

On the topic of sex... compatibility is important but if there's been a long and exciting relationship with #1, but intimacy has just been touched on with #2 I'd recommend leaving the sexual question out all together.  Sexual compatibility is important, but I wouldn't discount a girl if she "saved herself for marriage".

The "tool" isn't meant to 'dictate" the outcome...  We use a similar process in my profession to remove subjective comment from complex business process projects.  Everyone has an opinion but most opinions are almost always distorted by personal experience, not always by fact.

The way a girl "engages" the man probably should very well be one of the KSC.  it certainly would be for me.  if I met a girl that was perfect in every other way, but she was distant, that should have a BIG impact.  Acceptance or engagement from the partner should, I image, have a very high rating.

If anyone is interested I'd be happy to translate the methodology we use in business into something that might make sense in here...  

I could just relate to Gators deliberations when i was reading the thread and if anyone wants to consider the "tool" I'd be happy to do a little work and send to Dan and others for input.

Cheers,

Kuna

[Jumper]

And for all you guys who think I'm blunt, go back and re-read some of AJ's posts.  He is blunt, I'm a pussycat by comparison.

LOL! wow-
 i knew i was a bit blunt,,
but never thought i'd hear from anyone that  i was a pussycat compared to jb,  and then who its coming from makes it even more pungent. 

anyway ive always appreciated that you tell it exactly how you see it jb.  Even if you were taking a shot at my head with the clue bat.


as far as this  thread ,

Bucky -
my 2 kopecs-
pretty simple really?
 i only see you reevauluating a decision you already made.
 
I dont think no 2 would be in the picture at all if number one was closer to your age, as you would have already married her?

as much as age difference is debated on these forims,
age is the stumbling block for you two.. because despite being a great match it causes some issues you couldnt completely resolve?

so you spent some time looking for an older version of no 1.

hey nothing wrong with reevauluting your past choices? 
and actually, in most situatinos involving love-
 time doesnt present the oppurtunity to do so?

count yourself lucky , or cursed to be able to do so?

as now you have to go thru the same tough decision process you went thru once before !! with added complexity?
but then again we often say hindsight is 20/20 so maybe looking back you see that you clearly made a poor decision?
or one worth changing.

or perhaps its just that you changed a bit.. ..
and if you had to choose again, youd take the other path... 

you are the only one that knows..




as far as my take on some other poiints brought up..

I see a lot of true romantic notions, and thats great !
if Buckys looking for that..

but i find it an odd notion that the decision of marriage can be limited to "romantic true love only"
and if she doesnt just light up your world,, its a *no go*..

yes its what *most* hope for..
and what most feel is a needed foundation.
its what i would base my choices on..
but thats just me, and at this stage in my life. 

I know its blasphemey to suggest that not all marriages are based on deep romantic love - 
but certainly marriages of convenience , 
or for companionship and security, and a million other reasons,
some just on logical choice, and   have endured thru history.
as long as the two people are happy and committed to the marriage and each other..

not everyone will weigh the institution of marriage on just one scale?

so to say no1 is the best bet, or number 2..
or none of the above..
isnt practical unless you are *gator* or one on the two women, and know all the parameters being considered?
and how important each parameter is to your personal happiness.


just for example,
and ONLY an  example !
(no i dont think that it is the situation)
 but maybe at Gators point in life he is looking for someone comfortable to share his retirement with.
nothing more nothing less.

RW can marry for what they call "big love",
 or simply because they are at a stage in thier life they feel need to be married and mnake a practical choice on whom that will be.


 either case changes the whole decision process doesnt it?

its just a thought..
*shrugs*

[BillyB]

Sandro, Kuna,

Making a score card for choosing a woman for a relationship is a lot more difficult than making a score card to sniff out scammers. Nobody is the expert when it comes ot relationships and most of us here have failed at least once in our lives when it comes to women. Besides, what a man wants now may not be what he wants 5 years from now. That is why it's important for the two people in a relationship to communicate where they want to go with their lives 5, 10, 20 years down the road and be mature enough to make concessions.

If a score card is in demand and created then great. I hope it could help a guy out but the people using it need to be realistic and understand that the card can only assist a guy figuring out what he wants and his wants could change in teh future, so can the wants of the women he's inquiring about. He also needs to realize his ideal dream girl may not want him at all.

[KenC]

Gator, I think if someone wrote a thousand pages about a woman and the relationship with her someone reading those would still not have the same percpective and someone living them so you see things I and the others at RWD never will. 

I also believe that what is right for me or any other person is not always right for everyone.   I still see little in what you are saying that indicates the biggest problem for you is anything but the age difference.   I still don't see that 21 years or 31 years makes all that much difference.   If you were between a 31 and 10 year difference, yes then you may have someone at the same stage of your life who wanted to enjoy the golden years with you.  That seems to be important for you.  I do agree that age and maturity are two different things and I know there were a few other issues with the 31 year gal that seem to have been mostly worked out.  To me a lot of what makes a relationship special is, lets say, communication and friendship and from what you have said you have that more with the 31 than the 21.

Still sometimes I think that neither may be right for you.  If they were you would know it without question.

Sorry Turbo, but I have to disagree with your highlighted statement.  There is a huge difference between 20, 30 and 40 years difference in ages!  How you can think a woman in her late 20's/early 30's is no different from a woman in her late 30's/early 40's is almost bizarre to me.  It is almost like there is no difference between a 30 year age difference and a 38 year difference.   Either your math is screwed up or your logic is.  Do they round down from 38 to 30 typically in PA?
KenC

[Turboguy]

Yes, KenC.   I will agree there is a difference between a 12 year old and a 22 year old.   I think when you are talking gals in the early 30's to early 40's the individual differences will outweigh the chronological differences by a long shot.   We are dealing with people, not gingerbread men.

[jb]

T/G,

Yes,,, we got it,, about a week ago or more.  You got your 30's years younger chick, you can stop now... All you have done for days now is justify your own situation.   Trust me, we got it...

[Turboguy]

Sorry to disappoint you jb but I don't feel I have to justify anything and I was not trying to justify anything nor was I discussing my own personal situation.   

It is just my own personal opinion that maturity does not always exactly correlate with age and that a 31 year old woman and a 41 year old woman are both likely at a stage in their life where they may have in interest in working.  Personally I see very little difference in life stage between the two ages and life stage seems to have been an issue.

[tim 360]

Well,  I just got chuckle from all this.  Ya know,  no matter what her age or the age differences involved may be---after the honeymoon is over he will have alot of work to do.  ie:  If she is 20-30 years younger he'll have many adjustments to make,  hopefully he'll be smiling as he makes them.  If he marries a girl his exact age,  again he will still have plently of adjustments to make and more work to do and keep smiling.  I think alot really depends upon the 2 people involved and their mutual love, care, respect and character.  Differences always arise,  and a couple should unite to solve their problems.

Of course some age differences won't work for very long,  but some will.  Its all about the quality of the people.  Ciao, tim360

[Jumper]

every other day i'm a different person..
much less between ..umm ,,, decades 

but then i'm bi polar .. 

 

[Gator]

A Key Difference Between 31-yo and 41-yo

As I stated before the Cossack (41-yo) has twice the experience of adult thinking than Nr. 1 (31-yo).   Most of us are older than 41.  Do you recall your thinking at 31 vs. 41?  Nr. 1 has gone from dolls to babies without any meaningful career work.  Now she wants to accomplish something with her life.  She seeks self-actualization and to improve her self-esteem.  Have not most of us been through that?

In contrast, the Cossack has accomplished something with her life.  She had one child at an age typical with AW.  She wants to spend more time with her little one, try some country club sports, and explore other activities (classes in art, etc.)  that she never had time for.   This is a period of introspection, when one examines his/her life (sometimes referred to as “mid-life crises”).

Who Do I Love the Most?

I wished I did love one more than the other.  It is not simple, and not a fair comparison because of the limited time and limited communication with the Cossack.  I am happy, very happy when spending time with either.  I am a lucky man.  That is the primary source of this quandary. 

Screening Methods

There are various techniques to integrate and evaluate data to progress from a set of candidates to the selection of one deemed the best.  Summarizing from a chapter in my textbook:

Intuitive  - The decision maker examines all data as a whole and judges whether a candidate is acceptable.   This is akin to Gestalt psychology, and is the way most of us select a woman.  This method works because many characteristics of a candidate are usually interdependent and highly subjective.

Scaling  - Kuna, this is your approach.   Characteristics are replaced with numerical surrogates having a common scale.  Weights are attached to each factor, and presto, some number crunching yields a score.  The limitations – may introduce bias and the significance of the quantitative output is not readily apparent. 

Others – stepped down exclusion and criteria combinations.  I will not bore you.

By the way I did prepare a list of important factors (sense of humor, balanced generosity, energetic, adventurous, etc.).  Both women satisfied the criteria for all factors.  In other words, both women are superior.  The key difference, my assessment for Nr. 1 commands more confidence because I know more about her.  I do not feel it would be worth the effort to scale them.

I think it is best to focus on compelling reasons. 

[Turboguy]

Personally I can not remember a bit of difference in my thinking at 31, 41, 51, or 61.  Maybe it is a bad memory.   I am not even sure it was different at 21 but I did add some experience in the next decade.

I still think you are going about it more like buying a new computer or a new car.   I think you should dump them both and find one you know in your heart is the right one without all the analysis.

[Rvrwind]

Personally I can not remember a bit of difference in my thinking at 31, 41, 51, or 61.  Maybe it is a bad memory.   I am not even sure it was different at 21 but I did add some experience in the next decade.

Your doing better than me TG, I can't even remember 21!!!
Gator, I'm startin' to get the same drift here Bud. You are seriously starting to over anylize this whole situation & your relationship with these two ladies. Love isn't that complicated, either you do or you don't, there is very little middle ground & it certainly isn't something you can anylize to death.
I'm starting to feel as though you don't 'love' either of them because if you did, you deffinitly wouldn't have to put so much thought into your decision. And all that thought is clouding your thinking process which isn't helping matters.
Love to me & has been for me a totally non thinking process, when it hits you, you know it, instantly. There is no dcision to make, no thoughts to consider, no actions to justify. Its there & you know its there & you move forward to persue it or lose it. If you have to think about it & anylize your relationship I gotta say I don't think either of these ladies is right for you.
Real Love is an instinctive gut feeling that is unmistakable for anything else.

[vwrw]

T/G,
Yes,,, we got it,, about a week ago or more.  You got your 30's years younger chick, you can stop now... All you have done for days now is justify your own situation.   Trust me, we got it...

Dear JB,
LOL…The one who justifies his own situation is you. Each of us want to be happy and you too. To understand what we need to be happy we compare things. Like now Gator compare his women to understand what one he should choose to be happy with. You compare your own life’s situation and Turbo’s situation and you see the huge difference is there between yours and Turbo. Turbo’s life is full of various adventures, travels, meetings new people (most of them beautiful gals), seeing new place and so no. What about your life, JB? I think your life is full of a monotonic, dissatisfactions and joyless existence. And for justifying your own life’s situation you need to convince yourself - Turbo’s situation is not full of happiness and bliss or at least to convince yourself that even if Turbo’s situation is full of happiness now he would have to pay so large price for the happiness in future that it is better to have the monotonic, dissatisfactions and joyless existence as you have. So it is you who justify your own situation already for days now. 

 After reading the Jack’s post (Fall Trip Ukraine) where he said what preferences about women you have I am glad you do not find me to be interesting and exciting at least romantic speaking.

[Zmejka]

Just to chime in with the fresh idea about age difference (wrong thread i know) It's not a secret that some girls proclaiming their love for elder buddies are just tired of waiting for others to come. Even at 27 they think if they don't have (or can't find) local guys to date with (or local guys can't find them) it will always be the case - so better be settled for the less but FOR SURE than wait for god knows how long time and probably get nothing. So they truly want to have much in common with that guy who actually came and i believe with all the work they do they establish mutual understanding and other common things - very nice. So she comes to the States and in some time notices that there are ACTUALLY many other younger guys who DO pay attention to her. Now she feels like she has a CHOICE (especially if she never was inclined to date elder men before). What does she choose? It depends on her personality - some still prefer to have it less but stable (but may be regret about it who knows), some act upon the new circumstances. I just wouldn't recommend to change one's priorities while dating. But may be some think they won't find anyone who will love them the same way, treat the same way but with all other nice features will be closer to her age? Then it's more complicated and a case of low self-esteem. A professional help is needed. And surely some come for the better economical situation - but talking about it is boring    

And still - there're cases of LOVE overcoming everything. One needs luck to find it;)

[KenC]

Dear JB,
LOL…The one who justifies his own situation is you. Each of us want to be happy and you too. To understand what we need to be happy we compare things. Like now Gator compare his women to understand what one he should choose to be happy with. You compare your own life’s situation and Turbo’s situation and you see the huge difference is there between yours and Turbo. Turbo’s life is full of various adventures, travels, meetings new people (most of them beautiful gals), seeing new place and so no. What about your life, JB? I think your life is full of a monotonic, dissatisfactions and joyless existence. And for justifying your own life’s situation you need to convince yourself - Turbo’s situation is not full of happiness and bliss or at least to convince yourself that even if Turbo’s situation is full of happiness now he would have to pay so large price for the happiness in future that it is better to have the monotonic, dissatisfactions and joyless existence as you have. So it is you who justify your own situation already for days now. 

 After reading the Jack’s post (Fall Trip Ukraine) where he said what preferences about women you have I am glad you do not find me to be interesting and exciting at least romantic speaking.

VWRW,
Your post is disturbing on many levels.  I guess it could be construed as an attempt to "stand by your man", but in reality it is a personal attack on someone's personal life that just happened to make a flippant remark to Turbo.  A remark that, if I may add, was right on the money.  I guess we are to see more of this from you and Turbo.  Already he is following your posts with, "that's brilliant, Honey.*

For the record, jb's comment followed this Turbo post:
"Yes, KenC.   I will agree there is a difference between a 12 year old and a 22 year old.   I think when you are talking gals in the early 30's to early 40's the individual differences will outweigh the chronological differences by a long shot.   We are dealing with people, not gingerbread men."

That sure could be thought to be a "justification" of his relationship to a woman 38 years his junior.  Please keep in mind that my own wife is 25 years younger than I.  There is no way I would ever think my wife is the same as she will be in another 10 years.  I knew she was her age when we married, and I dealt with her youth, I didn't hide behind the concept that she was no different than a woman 10 years older.  The idea that people don't change over a 10 year period is ludicrous at best.  Personally, I think if you and Turbo are going to make a go of it, you need to keep your eyes open to your huge age difference and not turn a blind eye to it as Turbo seems to be doing.
KenC
(Sorry Gator, for taking this thread off track)

[Turboguy]

The disturbing part to me was that jb's imagination was creative enough to find a tie between my comment and my situation.   My post was to try to express my thoughts about Gators situation.   My post had nothing whatsoever to do with the difficulties of age differences.  It had nothing whatsoever to do with my own situation.   

The point I was trying to make which seems to have sailed right over jb's head and yours was this.   MOST people are in about the same stage of life at 31 & 41.   If I look at my own life at 31 and 41 I had the same business, the same wife, the same children, the same house, the same golf Buddy's, the same hobbies, read the same type of books watched the same type of movies and was equally miserable.   To me most people are living the same life stage at those two ages.   Yes, at 41 we are getting close to a point where we Analise our life a little more and realize that if we are going to make changes it is the time to do it.   That would actually put the cossack at a more unfavorable point in her life. 

I tie in the self actualization stage more at the time when someone gets closer to retirement.   When some people start looking for a deeper or more enjoyable meaning to their life after a lifetime of working.   The term Gator has used which is not my favorite is "Golden Years"   Gator says the Cossack is wanting her "Golden Years" at age 41.  That is fine.  There are lots of 21 year old Russian Gals who would like their golden years too but I would not want to marry one.    I would not want anyone looking for their Golden years unless they were in them.   We are in a world full of people who are all different.   Call someone who has no knowledge of RWD and ask them:  What age do you consider the start of the Golden Years?   See how many answer 41.

As far as any tie in with VWRW what does life stages have to do with my relationship.   I have not known her through life stages.
jb was the one who took this back off track with his absurd post.  If we need to discuss VWRW and me, lets take it to one of the posts we are already doing that in and talk about Gator here. 

As far as Gator goes, I still have the same opinion I did in my last post.   If you have to Analise it, save the brain power and flip a coin.  Since it is going to be a marriage of convenience what difference does it make.  If you loved either one you would know it and would not have to Analise it.  If it were me I would drop both of them.   Gator, I am not meaning any of this as negative towards you or your situation.   You are a great guy that deserves happiness.   I just don't think you are in love with either.   Lots of people never find love.  If you are content with happiness go with whichever makes you happier.

[BC]

Turbo,

Hate to differ with you but your previous post was addressed to KenC's post regarding age differences.. I think anyone reading it would interpret it exactly as KenC describes.

Bucky is doing just fine..  he's here asking questions and evaluating instead of flipping head over heels and/or talking himself into a relationship.  I think he's past the initial infatuation phase, seriously taking a look at his choices..- that's quite healthy.