How would you handle this "ethical" dilemma?

[Kuna]

When I first decided to arrange some "catch-ups" during my holiday I decided I would join an agency, write to a few girls, filter down to one, and visit her when I arrive in Ukraine.

My intention was to take a very casual approach to the "meeting" because I don't believe anything is real until you meet "in the flesh".

Since then I've written X number of emails, had some interesting correspondence, phoned a few different girls, discovered some mutual interests, "dis-engaged" from some, and now I'm left with something that feels like a dilemma.

There are 3 girls who I'd like to meet (at this stage) and unfortunately they're all in different cities.  I would like to visit all 3 (I'm there for 3 weeks) but don't know how to handle the process of "It's been a great week, now I have to go to someone else to meet them".

I'm sure others have been through the same process and I suspect there's some good advice out there.

All of the girls are different,  all are interesting in different ways, and it would be nice to keep it relaxed and get to meet all 3...  the issue I have is...  How can I meet them all to see if there's any spark without looking like, and feeling like, I'm on a shopping expedition?

Kuna

[Bruno]

...  the issue I have is...  How can I meet them all to see if there's any spark without looking like, and feeling like, I'm on a shopping expedition?

It is not a shopping expedition... take it more like a lotery... each girls is like a lotery ticket... only one is the jackpot, some are big price, and some are looser ticket...

Very few people win the jackpot... if you goal is to reach the big price, it is a number game... more lotery ticket, more chance to win... nothing wrong to visit several ladies for make a choice, a lifetime choice... and don't worry, the situation is the same on the woman side... if she is very good, she will have several suitor...

[Turboguy]

Well first off if you have a dilemma you have to take your number and wait your turn.  We only do one "dilemma" at a time.  We just finished up Wiz's.   We are working on Gators and your number will be called when we finish Gator.   Just kidding.

You could tell each gal you were coming for a week to see them.  Then fly to each city for that time.  Keep some agency numbers for backup in case it goes bad.  That is probably the way I would work it.  It is probably easier than dealing with three gals in the same city.  If you say you are coming to their city for a week to meet them it is not even a lie.

Truthfully I like to keep my first visits to no more than 5 days and sometimes fewer until I have met them.   If you hit one where there is no chemistry and she has gone to a lot of effort for your meeting such as taking off work then I always felt bad about bailing if the chemistry wasn't there and 5 days with someone with no chemistry can be a long time.

It is also possible to bring the gals up to Kiev for a meeting so you can use your time more effectively.   Many gals enjoy a vacation away from their city.  If you go that route you should pay for their travel and arrange a hotel or apt for them.

You seem to be going about things very well.  I am sure it will be a good trip for you.

[Gator]

T/G, Wiz has a dilemma, I have a quandary, and Kuna has a predicament.  And we will not ask JB what you have.  

Kuna,

The women know the game.  They do not ask – the same that you do not ask them about their boyfriend(s).  Just say that your quest next takes you to another city.  If these women like you, they will even see you to the train station and help you through the Cyrillic-laden maze of buying a ticket. 

There may be a woman who do ask particulars.  She is the same one who expects you to fly halfway around the world just to meet her and only her.   It is an uneasy situation, and you should say “poka” to such a controlling person.  Others may wish the same but are too polite and friendly to demand such.

You may find that there are no sparks after a day or two.  If so, you should excuse yourself.  One week in Kiev is more than enough.  You will be able to see all the sights in 2-3 days (about half the time as in the summer when some interesting parks are open).  To experience the people takes much longer.

What are your two other cities to visit.  Some may be interesting.  Others may be tedious.

Good luck.

[Turboguy]

LOL gator,   Thanks for qualifying the situations more exactly.   Me, I have not got a problem in the world.  I have to agree with Gator, knowing which cities you are considering may help. 

I would suggest that you have a list of good agencies in each city you visit and if the visit is not going well cut your losses and try to find some people who are right for you while you are there.   Sometimes as I mentioned in my first post it seems best to ride the visit out even if there is no chemistry but in reality it is better to save her the time and effort and to save your trip and move on.  Of course it is possible you will have great chemistry with all the gals and then you can post your next dilemma, which of the three wonderful gals you should spend your next visit with.  You seem to have your head screwed on right so that will be a big help.

[Kuna]

Turbo, Gator, Bruno...  thanks for you comments... and sorry if this turns into a long post.   

The cities I'm visiting are most likely to be Kiev, Zaporozhye and Cherkasy.  Keeping in mind the first week is for Hamburg and Riga, but then I'm allowing myself 3 weeks in Ukraine... maybe a few extra days?

All 3 girls so far seem quite different from each other but all are equally interesting. 

I'm not certain about Ms. Kiev yet, but she's certainly piqued my interest.  A definite career girl, successful, independent, well travelled and obviously highly intelligent. One downfall so far is that she's a "fast talker" and our conversations on the phone usually end up with me saying "pardon?", her telling me I'll have to listen more carefully, then she slows down for a while but gets excited again so goes back to "fast-talking".  hehehe

It's interesting because I'm almost "pathologically inquisitive" so through the use of a transliteration site and our good friend "Mr Google" I've found her career profile on her employers web site and discovered little pieces of information about her recent past (education, career, travels).  It might be an unfair advantage but I was able to ask questions I already knew the answers to, and everytime she fulfilled my expectations and STILL surprised me.   

My intention in Kiev is to meet her and see what happens, and if there's no spark I'll definitely contact some agencies to arrange other dates.  I also have contacts I can use in Kiev (My best friend's in-laws - who I've met) to just get out and about and fill up some time.

Ms. Cherkasy is a career girl, travels frequently inside Ukr and seems to have a soft side that I find very appealing.  Very beautiful, but it's her internal qualities that have enticed me to continue the correspondence. This is evolving, but I'm expecting to go to Cherkasy.

Ms. Zaporozhye is definitely the one at the moment that I've connected with most.  I think she's living a tough life but seems to have good people around her.  She started our correspondence very honestly but with great positivity.  She's the first to tell me not to waste money on hotels because she'll arrange an apartment,  told me to be careful in Kiev because people will realise I'm a foreigner and has constantly warned me about jackets, sweaters, gloves, scarves, hats and everything else she expects an Australian to forget.

Once, and only once, she sent an email and sounded very upset with her "position in life" and to be honest I was expecting the next email to turn bad (asking for money or something).  In the email she apologised for being negative and of course I said it wasn't an issue. I resisted responding directly to the "tough life" comments altogether though. (To be truthful I liked the "reality" of the exchange we were having because we all have down days and I know sharing some of her problems was a good, thing not a bad thing) 

Anyway, the next email came a little later than usual (by a few days) and she apologised for the delay but explained that she was tired of struggling so much so she's gone out and got a second job as a translator.  "Nice," I thought!  Gutsy!

I've talked to all 3 on the phone (several times),  but with Ms. Zap I've also been able to talk to her friend (even though she was in the background and the friend was laughing because she was trying to ears-drop).

Another thing... when I was researching Zap I stumbled on a website that really got me thinking and I'm on a bit of a mission there too.  It's an orphanage that has a great site about the kids, their families and the struggles they have.  They're asking for some basic stuff... blankets, jackets, educational games for the kids with learning difficulties, doors and windows to keep out the draft.  I've put a lot of thought into it and I've decided to arrange a visit while I'm there and to take some bits and pieces that will help out...  (I've already coaxed some friends at home to front up with some cash... Don't worry, it's not all mine...)

I'll take some picture books of Australian wildlife too because the orphanage director mentioned they are always trying to find new was to create interest and provoke thought in the kids (especially those with learning difficulties).  Anyway...  I imagine that'll take up a day or two...

Sorry.. this is long... BUT...   

Basically my plan is to meet the girls on day 1 in each town and if it doesn't work either stay in town and meet others, or possibly with Zap travel up to Dnipro and contact agencies there.

My "holiday" is a holiday and I'm looking forward to getting around the country a bit.  As I said in my early posts I'd be very happy to meet a great girl while I'm there but I'm not hard up for dates at home...  I'm just not finding the one I want to settle down with at home.

The process thus far has been "interesting" At least at home you have the benefit of making confident decisions based on personal interaction...  Emails and phone calls hide the key requirement for a relationship, sparks!

So...  the original question was about explaining that I'd enjoyed my time with them but I was heading off to meet others...  What I think I've learnt tonight is that I don't have to explain, I just need to accept each meeting for what it is... (?)

Would be interested in your comments.

Kuna

[Sohkay]

Kuna,
It sounds like a good trip plan.

First, it's "Kyiv" not "Kiev", and it's pronounced "Keev".

If Miss Kyiv is a fast and dominant talker, remember she will only be more so in the future. Be sure you have a personality that can live with this.

Gotta' tell ya' though, Miss Zap sounds like she has some good qualities, but be careful about having her arrange apartments. It's probably better, on your first trip to arrange your own and see where it goes from there. This will show her your resourcefulness and increase the chances of getting an apartment you will be comfortable in.

Have a good trip and good luck!

Sohkay

[jb]

Kuna,

Kudos, it sounds like a great trip.  I know you will enjoy the people but the orphanage will probably break your heart. I've seen a couple of them and those poor kids live in absolute squalor.

BTW,

First, it's "Kyiv" not "Kiev", and it's pronounced "Keev" {/quote}

I was under the impression both were equally correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev

[Kuna]

First, it's "Kyiv" not "Kiev", and it's pronounced "Keev".

Sohkay,  Thanks for the tip...  I'm forever struggling with the appropriate usage of words.   

If Miss Kyiv is a fast and dominant talker, remember she will only be more so in the future. Be sure you have a personality that can live with this.

You've got that right.  Actually, the thing that I sense with her is that she may get frustrated early on because her English needs improvement, and I feel that she'll probably expect to be "productive" like she is at home pretty quickly.  This isn't exactly what I'm looking for, but at the moment it's all words and voices... It's not reality yet.

Gotta' tell ya' though, Miss Zap sounds like she has some good qualities, but be careful about having her arrange apartments. It's probably better, on your first trip to arrange your own and see where it goes from there. This will show her your resourcefulness and increase the chances of getting an apartment you will be comfortable in.

Agreed about the good qualities...  but again we'll see. It's a good tip about the apartment though... I'll take that on-board.

I know you will enjoy the people but the orphanage will probably break your heart. I've seen a couple of them and those poor kids live in absolute squalor.

jb...  Yeah, I know. I've already seen some pictures of it and was surprised at the good state of the grounds but in the photos of the buildings it was obvious they need some repairs and maintenance.  I spent a whole night on this site reading about the kids and the young bloke that's making an effort. it was more about their words than their conditions though...  Example?  This is from the website:

Praisers of the Zaporozhye orphans.

When children began visited our church in "DK Stroitel" in Zaporozhye, we have placed the post box. Every orphans can put his needs, wishes and praisers to this box. Here you can see what children praise about (during March-december 2004):
- I want to have a family
- I want anyone to take me away from the orphanage, and I want my brother don't placed to the orphanage
- I want my parents to give up drinking and to take me from the boundary school to home
- I want other children don't offend me in the orphanage
- I want have many friends and love everybody
- I want to leart to draw
- I should want God bless me by parents which love me
- I want the they let me go to home
- I should want God bless me and my brother, I need good family, I want Ann get better
- I want God bless Sasha and Yasha in their new family
- I want God help me to find my father
- I will praise You every day so that I was adopted
- My God, I want to see sister Lyuba and my mother, please, cure she from epilepsy
- I would like to receive letter
- I want family and love


For anyone that's interested here's the link:

http://www.deti.zp.ua/eng/deti.php

I thought it was very sad,  but uplifting at the same time.

Cheers,

Kuna

[BillyB]

Kuna,

If you can't fit all ladies into your schedule and all things are near equal, choose the one that's most into you. You will have a better chance that she will be a good hostess to you.

When I wrote to ladies that I made a decision on a woman. I told them I enjoyed correspondence with them and it was a difficult decision for me and I could not keep writing them because I do not play games with multiple women at the same time once I make a commitment. If it doesn't work out with the woman I've chosen to visit, I asked if I could resume correspondence with them. All women accepted and even admired me. One woman tried for months to get me to visit, even after I visited my current fiancee. Show some wisdom, consideration and character and you'll have all kinds of woman after you, even though they know you're communicating with other women at the same time. Some women asked me during correspondence if I was writing to others, I was honest but gave them an answer they could respect. Only one woman stopped writing me and the question was asked in her first letter. Sorry, I don't commit exclusively to one woman after one letter.

[groovlstk]

There may be a woman who do ask particulars.  She is the same one who expects you to fly halfway around the world just to meet her and only her.   It is an uneasy situation, and you should say “poka” to such a controlling person.  Others may wish the same but are too polite and friendly to demand such.

If the girls you're meeting are agency girls, they will know the drill. If they're attractive they've already had foreigners visit, they've seen guys poking through catalogs when they stop by the agency office, etc.

However, I'll disagree slightly w/Gator in that if you meet a girl from Freepersonals.ru or another dating site or ICQ, etc., they may have never dated a foreign man before and they will likely be offended if you let on that you're meeting multiple women. Sure it seems silly for a girl to expect you to travel around the globe just to see her, but remember: she's a woman and if she's cultivated any feelings for you she'll want to think your motivation in coming to Ukraine is just to see her. I made the mistake in being brutally honest about this with women I was planning to meet during one trip and it backfired on me. You don't have to lie, just don't volunteer information that they don't need to know. 

[Kuna]

If the girls you're meeting are agency girls, they will know the drill. If they're attractive they've already had foreigners visit, they've seen guys poking through catalogs when they stop by the agency office, etc.

Groov,

Thanks for provoking some new thoughts.  All 3 are from the same agency but two of them have commented that this is their first 'stab" at international dating. The other one has 2 friends that have married and moved (one to germany the other to the US).

I think you're right about giving too much info...

I'm just conscious of the fact that I don't want to be flitting all over Ukraine spending too little time with too many girls and coming home thinking 'Wow,  that was fun but I wish I could remember that ones name who I really sparked with".

Come to think of it it's similar to a "policy" I've implemented in my dating life at home...  but that's too detailed to go into here.

Cheers,

Kuna

[IAmZon]

Excellent advice BillyB.  Something we should all know, but in a new environment that at times is overly calculating, it is a great reminder.

Kuna ... your a stud!  I want to be just like you when I grow up:)  Sounds like you have put together an excellent trip rather quickly - even with a human mission.  Kudos to you.

I suspect this will be your first trip, not your last. 

I look forward to reading your experiences and impressions very, very much.  And do me a favor, just for experiment:  Please make several deliberate efforts (even if you don't need to) to be friendly to women who you do not know, without agencies.  I am especially curious to learn the "general response" you (or I) will (or would) receive outside the framework of internet communication / marriage agencies.

When are you going?

[Gator]

Kuna,

You are doing fine.

I can comment on Zaporozhye.  You will be able to see the highlights (hydroelectric dam built with American supervision, statute of Lenin) in 4 hours if you walk (less if you take a taxi).  There is a an interesting outdoor museum about Cossack life on an island in the Dnepir River.  However, being January and outdoors, it will be closed.

Thus, your life there will center around spending time with your friend.  Does she plan to take time off from work to meet you?  If yes, you will feel obligated to stay with her even if the time together is less than glorious.  If no, you will have much time on your hands.  If she is fabulous and has lots of time, you may wish to take some day trips with her to Dnepropetrovsk, etc.

You are correct that you can go to Dnepr ($40 by taxi).  If she gets you an apartment, you can be sure that it will be convenient to where she lives so you do not waste time standing in the cold trying to catch a bus/taxi.  The only reasonable hotel is a refurbished Soviet style In-tourist. 

[Kuna]

And do me a favor, just for experiment:  Please make several deliberate efforts (even if you don't need to) to be friendly to women who you do not know, without agencies.  I am especially curious to learn the "general response" you (or I) will (or would) receive outside the framework of internet communication / marriage agencies.

Rivardco,

I'm booking tickets tomorrow and at this stage it looks like I'll depart January 20.  I'd like to go sooner (because of work commitments) but I can only get a business class fare ($8,500) if I want to be back by the end of January.

As for "deliberate efforts to be friendly"...  I think there's a fair chance that'll happen.  I'm "quite" extroverted (which doesn't mean always loud) and I usually can't help myself to have a bit of a laugh during everyday interactions.  Most of the girls I date here I've met in cafe's, shops, libraries, bus stops, lifts, planes, etc so I'm not really shy.  And yes, I'll definitely write a trip report!

If yes, you will feel obligated to stay with her even if the time together is less than glorious.  If no, you will have much time on your hands.  If she is fabulous and has lots of time, you may wish to take some day trips with her to Dnepropetrovsk, etc.
You are correct that you can go to Dnepr ($40 by taxi).  If she gets you an apartment, you can be sure that it will be convenient to where she lives so you do not waste time standing in the cold trying to catch a bus/taxi.  The only reasonable hotel is a refurbished Soviet style In-tourist. 

Gator,

Ms Zap said she'd like to take time off work while I'm there but I'm hesitating a little over that...  It seems to add more pressure but I suspect we'll get on well anyway.  Dunno, no hard decisions yet...

I'll make sure I'm in Zap over the weekend anyway so even if she does work we'll have plenty of time to get a general feel for each other.  She's suggested Dnepr and I reckon it sounds like a good idea.  Even if we don't click as "more than friends" I'm confident that we're interacting well enough on the phone to enjoy spending time together.

Something I must address with her is her suggestion to go to Kiev together. (She wants to help me research the family thing). Again, after reading these boards I was initially suspicious of "professional daters" and scams, but as the conversations have continued I'm less worried about that (Still conscious of it though).

I'm not making any any fixed plans with the girls yet, but instead I'm trying to get good info that will help me make some final decisions.

With all of them I've explained:

• Why I'm going to Ukr,
• What I "might find",
• My logical approach to relationships (head must approve before the heart is opened), and;
• My intent to base any future relationship on genuine friendship before all else.

Thanks to all for the info on the towns.

Kuna

[RK]

Kuna,
It sounds like a good trip plan.

"First, it's "Kyiv" not "Kiev", and it's pronounced "Keev"."


Actually Sohkay, both spellings are correct. One is Russian and one is Ukrainian.

[RK]

Kuna,
It sounds like a good trip plan.

First, it's "Kyiv" not "Kiev", and it's pronounced "Keev".

Actually Sohkay, both spellings are correct. One is Russian and one is Ukrainian.