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Author Topic: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?  (Read 11099 times)

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Offline ConnerVT

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2006, 07:41:53 PM »
So, I repeat again do not consider RW and UW to be stupider than they are. Many RWs and UWs are going to America have knowledge that far not all Americans are rich. 

vwrw, your pretty knowledgeable for someone who hasn't experienced the differences in economies from both sides.  Most of the RW I've met here (quite a few) found their perceptions and reality to be quite different.

You still haven't acknowledged that there is a big difference between wealthy (as you put it, "rich") and one's salary.

Your threshold for "rich" is also interesting.  From the May 2005 National Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates from the US Dept. of Labor survey of over 130 million wage earners, the mean US salary was $37,870.  Less than 1% of those 130 million (less than 1 million) fit your definition.  CEOs, doctors/dentists, and airline pilots were the only professions that average more than $120,000 annual salary.

Interesting web site: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#b00-0000

Offline jinx13

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2006, 07:50:32 PM »
VWRW,

  That's actually pretty close to the number I had in mind, but like jb said it depends on where you live, but I would say a guy that makes $120,000 a year is doing pretty good for himself.

 Of course the more money you make, the more you spend, and maybe the more debts you make for yourself. If you buy a home in California the average price in the bigger cities is about $600,000, so you can see how easy it is to spend your income. I live in modest house in a gated community on a golf course, sounds nice right? Well ok, it is  ;)  but after paying my mortgage and other expenses there is very little left over for fun, much less saving anything.

 So although I, and other Americans might look rich from the outside, or from a RW/UW point of view, the truth is most are not, but that is partly our fault because of the lifestyle we choose to lead, and the importance Americans put on material possesions. Guilty as charged  :-\


Offline jb

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2006, 08:05:23 PM »
Ya know, I know many illiterate Mexican truck drivers who make $75-80,000 a year, but they are never home.  A lot depends on the lifestyle one is willing to lead.  You can make lots of money and not have a life, or you can try to have a life and not make so much money.  On the other hand, a recent graduate engineer will be offered about $50,000 as a starting wage and work his way up to $90,000.  Unless he goes back to school for post-grad work he'll top out at about $100,000 for a career high.  That's not too bad until he gets a divorce at age 40-45 and loses everything and has to start all over again.  Doctors and Lawyers tend to do better.

In the best case, it's not a good thing to count your chickens before they hatch.  Life's a baitch.

Offline Admin

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2006, 08:08:24 PM »
I posted this once or twice before. It is a bit dated now, circa 2000, and it was prepared for Canada - so the absolute figures are lower than most American cities.

Still, it is written in both English and Russian, and with an explanation about the fact that prices have risen, but the proportions are still pretty accurate - and it should suffice as an introduction to finances in North America.

Enjoy,

- Dan

Offline Turboguy

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2006, 08:09:57 PM »
I think you have a good point about geography.   In New York City or San Francisco $ 120.000 would not make you rich.   In 60 % of the rest that would be a good benchmark for Rich and in another 15% or so that would make you super rich.

jb, that is pretty good practice for an interview.   You hit two of the questions Luda missed on hers.  My guess is right now after 5 days together the only one that might give VWRW trouble would be my street address.

Offline KenC

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2006, 08:23:20 PM »
I posted this once or twice before. It is a bit dated now, circa 2000, and it was prepared for Canada - so the absolute figures are lower than most American cities.

Still, it is written in both English and Russian, and with an explanation about the fact that prices have risen, but the proportions are still pretty accurate - and it should suffice as an introduction to finances in North America.

Enjoy,

- Dan
Dan,
I always think of that document when people raise this question.  Who put it together originally?
KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline Admin

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2006, 08:47:15 PM »
Dan,
I always think of that document when people raise this question.  Who put it together originally?
KenC

Ken,

Del from Alberta Canada put it together initially. I asked a friend to do the translation into Russian.

- Dan

Offline Jumper

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2006, 09:54:51 PM »
Quote
Like it or not, the majority of folks in the FSU will assume you are rich. You can even explain that you're travelling on a budget or you don't own a home or you drive a 89 Camry and it will still get you nowhere. Unless the person you're meeting has travelled and seen a lot of the world, their assumption is: all Americans are rich, so you must be rich. In my experience, unless you're a millionaire, explaining where you fit in on the financial scale will be very difficult and it's something that your girl will only understand with time and repeated conversations and examples.

And if you manage to find someone to get serious with, she'll have to deal with myriad problems she's not yet dreamed of because all her friends and colleagues will think she's got a rich boyfriend.

My fiancee is having a difficult time at work because her colleagues are brazenly poaching her clients. One SOB, whom I met twice, waited until her day off to steal one of her clients who had agreed to buy her $25k kitchen. When she angrily confronted him the next day, he simply shrugged and said, "but you have Mark, he's rich, you don't need the money as much as I do."
 


a second that..

and jb and connervt brought up some excellent points as well-
that America is vastly different geographically/economically..
and that trrue wealth is far different than salary,, and the fact credit is a relatively new thing in ther FSU and certainly not as ingrained in everyday livlyhood as 90% of america.

My wife is pretty clever,higher degree,  had good english,  and was well informed, still her thoughts on how things "are" in America is far different today than when she moved.

misconceptions about life in the USA,,  are far more common than accurate perceptions.
even with my wife now directly telling her friends and family, they generally strongly hold to those older misconceptions.


rivcardo-
its simply your job to
 explain as best you can.
youve gotten some great advice..

but to be honest.. the cultures are quite different.
the perceptions are fairly ingrained.
(for example my wife was fired as soon as they knew of her engagement,, and her nieghbors, once friends became combative and nasty)

I think its like riding a bike, you can tell someone how it is,
what its like, how to do it,
 a million times, in a million ways.
and YES, they can get the jist of it,,
 understand generally how it works,,
the fundamentals of what to do ..
but wont truly understand the feeling untill they ride it themselves?

in my case my wife knew my salary wasnt anything like she had hoped her future husband (from anywhere, including Ukraine )
might make,..
I mean every little girl wishes/dreams/hopes for a prince right? princes arnt poor or middle class afterall? lol
and princes drive white mercedez instead of white horses..

in fact as VWRW explains,
 she did have a pretty good understanding of salaries/costs
 and wondered how i could even survive?
She was initially disinterested in me over that! (first date) because of an understanding in her mind, that my job wouldnt support a family!
 RW pragmaticism at its best!
..why marry a guy, from anywhere if he cant support a family?
kazmear! ,,  if you are going to do that.. marry the man next door and stay close to your family?
 afterall she dint want to leave ukraine anyway!

so see rivcardo?
 sometimes despite the misconceptions -
the shoe is on the other foot LOL
luckily her mother loved me,told her she was a foolish girl not to  date me.(even was going to find me a nice girl if Tanya wasnt interested lol)   
also i was not at all  overbearing- but was persistant!
and charming ;)
 and very very open and  honest about my "means" and had to win her heart.. my wallet sure wasnt going to do it!

so hopefully ecomomic understanding wont be a big factor in our romance anyway!!

good luck!

.

Offline Kuna

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2006, 11:04:28 PM »
By such a standard,,, I'm not rich.

How many do this?

Yes... Among many other questions, like;  "What are the names of his children?", "How did you meet?",  "How much time have you spent together?",  "What is your fiancee's exact birth date?", "What is the name of the town you will live in?", "What is the address of the house you will live in?", "What does he do for a living?", "How many times has he been married before?", "Where did he go to school?". There are many questions that you must know the exact answer to, few of these many questions are known to you after only spending 5 days together.  If you miss one question the officer will begin to ask extra questions.  This is the point I've been trying to get you to understand.  You must prove a lasting and viable relationship to the Consular Officer to get a K-1 Visa.  It's not as easy as you think.  It's easy to get things wrong and mess up a visa interview.

Are you serious????  They ask those questions? 

Sheeesh... my ex (who was an Aussie) wouldn't have known the answers to those questions!  In fact after 4 years she STILL didn't understand what I did for work... "Computer stuff" she would say, but that wasn't remotely true!   ;D

Often after meeting someone new at work the girls would often talk about their partners etc and I swear, every single time this happened she would come home and want a serious discussion so she knew what to answer when she was asked next time.  We'd discuss it,  she'd ask questions, I'd draw her diagrams, and eventually she'd say something like "Ohhhh, I get it now, so you're into computer stuff then right?"

Hmmm...  but we're not together anymore.  hahaha!


Anyway, I've read up on the immigration process in Australia and I believe they ask you some basic questions about your knowledge of your partner but mostly they look for evidence of the relationship:

- # trips the man has made to FSU;
- Photos of you together;
- Email and correspondence history;
- Phone bills showing continued contact;
- Etc.

A couple of other differences I've noticed...
- In Australia the Fiance Visa gives you 9 months to marry within Australia, and;
- If your lady has a skill that's listed as "in demand" in Australia they'll fast track the application.

From what I've read the entire process (including her ability to work if she chooses) takes 6 - 9 months.

I say all of the above without being through the process yet but I'll be sure to let you know if I do go through it.

Cheers,

Kuna


Offline PeeWee

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2006, 11:31:28 PM »
You don't...

If you go fishing with the "Green" lure the only thing you will catch is a ton of scammers.  It is better to down play the lifestyles of the rich and famous until you can figure out if she loves you for you, not what you have or the fatness of your wallet.

Eddie Murphy played it best in "Coming to America" in the retelling of the classic "The Prince and the Pauper". In both the King, or Prince, pretends to be a poor man in order to find the woman who will love him not for his money. A hard trick to pull off when on considers how money oriented woman are.

Peewee

Offline PeeWee

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2006, 11:37:28 PM »
Guys,
Do not consider RW and UW to be stupider than they are. Most women very well know there are rich, poor and middle earning people in America. And most of the women who looking for husband abroad even know how much a man has to earn to belong to one or other of the levels.


Peewee is not suprised to learn this. The word "woman" is but another way to spell the word "money". Coincidence both words are 5 letter words.

Peewee

Offline jb

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2006, 04:48:47 AM »
Kuna,
Quote
Are you serious?Huh?  They ask those questions?

Yes, actually they do.  As far as the U.S. Consular Officer is concerned, every application is suspect.  Visa fraud has been rampant in the past and it is their duty is to try to detect insincere visa applicants before they get into the country.  Sort of a case of being guilty until proved innocent, if you know what I mean.  A visa application can be denied for any reason that arouses the hair on the back of his neck.  One thing that jumps out at them is huge age gaps between sponsor and applicant.  38 years is sure to get their attention.  I'm quite certain that if T/G files a K-1 app for vwrw, she will be questioned far more closely than someone with a more age appropriate sponsor.  In making an application for a foreign fiancee, the forms are designed to build a case of believability for a Marriage Based Visa and by extension, a successful marriage and immigration.  One thing the BCIS and U.S. Department of State does not want is quasi-legal aliens running amok if the engagement doesn't work out and she might decide to overstay her visa, or just remain here in any event and take her chances finding another husband.  If she is unable to answer his questions in detail, and present a believable story, I would not be surprised to see the visa turned down. 

T/G knows the drill, he's already had trouble of this sort with another young girl's application.

'Sway it is.

Offline Turboguy

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2006, 05:30:47 AM »
I had a list of about 100 questions they might ask in an interview and when Luda went last year, they asked two not on the list.

There is no standard for what they might ask.   I have heard of cases where the only question they asked was "How are you today?"   Typically they will ask 3-5 questions  that may be in the range jb mentioned.   Miss one they think you should know and the grilling may add a few.   

Missing a couple of questons is not an automatic turn down.   Luda missed two questions.  We got what they call a 229-G.  They just looked a little harder at our relationship.   Had she not missed those questions it would have sailed right though.

About the age difference.   They are not allowed to judge a relationship.  In theory if someone had 80 years age difference or was Tom Cruise marrying a gal whose nose had fallen off with leprosy that is officially none of thier business.  You know what they say about love being blind.  In practice they may look just a little harder because they see it as a slightly higher risk of someone not really being a couple but rather someone who is trying to get a visa on false pretenses.   It is usually not that big a deal.

Offline jb

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2006, 06:11:25 AM »
T/G,

Quote
In practice they may look just a little harder because they see it as a slightly higher risk of someone not really being a couple but rather someone who is trying to get a visa on false pretenses.

You are the master at understating the obvious.  When I first started dating my wife way back when, the K-1 visa process was very uncomplicated and straight forward.  It was virtually automatic.  A I-129F application used to run 3 months, tops, from the TSC, it was running 9-12 months last time I looked, now they don't even publish a time frame for processing a Fiancee Visa application.    Post 9-11 it has been one new stumbling block after another placed in the path.  First it was the complete shutdown of the system and a lengthly review of all regulations, then the shuffle of INS into the Department of Homeland Security, followed by the addition of the *new* National Visa Center, passage of the Patriot Act brought about the addition of the *new* FBI/CIA/Interpol name checks requirements, when before they just looked at the gal's local Police report.  The clear instructions to the Consulate to assume all visa application are bad until proved otherwise, (read the Handbook)  It is obvious to the most casual observer that the US is attempting to close it's borders to legal immigration, or at least make it so difficult that the less determined applicant will just throw in the towel and quit.  Any, I repeat, any, irregularity in an application will result in a denial these days.  The more red flags you throw into the mix the better is the chance of refusal. 

I just wish the same effort would be applied to the illegal immigration problems going on down south.

BTW, has anybody else noticed the complete redesign of the USCIS web site?  I used to be very familiar with the old site, I guess I've got a lot of reading to do if I want to sound credible in the immigration advice area.

Offline Turboguy

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2006, 06:38:55 AM »
I won't disagree that it is more complicated than it used to be.  Still the K-1 visa has a very high rate of approval.   They still consider it a right of an American Citizen to marry the woman of his choice.  They have to have a good reason to suspect fraud and they are not supposed to be judging the couple themselves.   They are there to determine if the intent is good not if the couple is good.

You missed the part about the IMBRA mess earlier this year.  Approved visas were put on hold if the passport had not been mailed while they waited for criminal background checks.  The entire system was virtually in limbo.   People using the only form available got RFE's because the only form they had did not have the information they wanted.

The system is running a little smoother now.  Groov just set a world record for post IMBRA with her visa in hand about 4 months after mailing the K-1 to Vermont.

As far as VWRW and me, she may get an extra question or two, otherwise the age difference should not create a problem.   Of course there are no guarantees and any couple can run into snags no matter what their circumstances.

Offline jb

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2006, 06:47:00 AM »
Quote
You missed the part about the IMBRA mess earlier this year.

No, I didn't mention that part, nor did I mention that the number of K-1's a man could apply for was reduced from *all he wanted*, to 2 in his lifetime.  It sure seems to me that the thrust of the BCIS effort is to weed out the players from those who really are serious about their future spouses.  I don't how to stress the immigration clampdown any more forcefully than this, people don't like the clue bat much but some people just aren't getting the message very well.

The handwriting is on the wall, read it and weep.

Offline Turboguy

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2006, 07:08:52 AM »
Why weep when you can smile.  I have the biggest smile on my face I have ever had.   Yes, I only have one shot left at a K-1.  I only need one.

Back to the topic.   It seems like most of the guys try to downplay the financial side of things which is good.   I am sure there are many women who come here expecting to live in a palace with servants and a Rolls Royce.  I am sure some of the Newbies going on their first romance tour do it the other way and they are setting themselves up for disaster.

From what I have read the differences in the way the economy and financial dealings work here vs there seem to create a steep learning curve for FSU women and sometimes some problems in the marriages.   Of course even in marriages with AM+AW money is often the root of a lot of difficulties.

Of course on the other side of the coin with all the fixed and variable expenses,  debt service, 401-K contributions and the like many Americans seem to lead a fairly comfortable life and end up with enough net worth to not have to worry much.   The other side of the coin also includes things like as we are making those hefty mortgage payments we have a nice house to live in, the mortgage amount is slowly coming down and the value of the property is increasing and the gain in real estate value for many is where their financial stability often comes from.

I have a question about terminology.   Wealthy to me is someone with a lot of assets.   Rich to me is more ambiguous.  It could be a high income or a lot of assets.  It is someone who can comfortably lead an above average life style.  I guess in my mind it might be the next step above wealthy which would imply more than some of the income levels we have talked about.   The other class is someone with a lot of income.   That may make them wealthy or rich.  They could also spend money like water and not have a thing to show for it.  I can not think of a term that is one word that describes someone with a high income.  Anyone have one.  Just curious.

Offline jb

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2006, 07:46:50 AM »
Edward Wolff, a noted professor of economics at New York University, says 1% of the population in America own 38% of all the wealth.  The top 5 percent own more than half of all wealth.  The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth.   These are the people we could probably list as *rich*.  Their income from assets exceed their living expenses by such a hefty margin, they will continue to get richer no matter what they decide to buy tomorrow or next week. The bottom 20 percent basically have zero wealth.  In between we have 40% who constitute a growing middle class.

You measure wealth by ownership of assets, either liquid, or real estate, stocks, bonds, cash out value of life insurance, etc.   You cannot compare the incomes of people to determine richness, i.e., two families with the same income live in houses of the same value, but one has a mortgage and the other owns the house, these two are not in the same category.  The family who owns the house is better off.

Does that answer your question?

Offline Turboguy

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2006, 07:52:04 AM »
Very good explaination jb.  I agree with that totally.  Sometimes we talk about the differences in the way Russians and Americans think of money and some have said that many Russians don't like to leave money laying around.   I have to think that many Americans as soon as they get something paid off look for something to do with the money they used to spend for the payments such as buy something else they really don't need.

Offline jb

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2006, 08:11:38 AM »
There is such a thing as "Red Neck" economics.  I see it, I want it, I go in debt to my eyeballs to buy it.  If you can't afford to pay off your credit card debt each month, in toto, then you are accumulating debt, not wealth.  Heck, I've even seen people finance a hamburger at MacDonald's on credit cards at 18%.   Silliest thing I ever saw.

Offline IAmZon

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2006, 09:05:57 AM »
1) About five years ago, a very popular book was published that studied this in depth: "The Millionair Next Door".

2) The reason I asked the question was to get input on how we are perceived financially.  Great responses.  Thank you all.

3) I also wanted to get some ideas on how to best "frame" or give explanations without sounding materialistic, arrogant, and bragging.  Again, I thank you all for excellent advice.



Offline groovlstk

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2006, 09:07:36 AM »
My fiancee is having a difficult time at work because her colleagues are brazenly poaching her clients. One SOB, whom I met twice, waited until her day off to steal one of her clients who had agreed to buy her $25k kitchen. When she angrily confronted him the next day, he simply shrugged and said, "but you have Mark, he's rich, you don't need the money as much as I do."

I'm off topic but I can't resist following up on this. The guy who poached my fiancee's client is in for a surprise in a few weeks. Recently, their firm ordered business cards for employees and just before the order went to the printer, she changed the guy's name on the request form to "Abramowitz."

She knows well that antisemitism is rampant in Russia so he's not going to be too pleased when he gets his new business cards :)

Offline ConnerVT

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2006, 09:17:32 AM »
You know, it can be dangerous to marry a vengeful woman...  :o

Offline Gator

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2006, 09:34:53 AM »
Rivardco,

I am late coming to this thread.  You have good advice.  I will repeat, Do not mention money in your first letter.  Just mention your education and your job.  If it ever becomes a subject, say “My job as a _____ gives me financial security.  It does not make me rich, but I am able and eager to provide for my family.”   Women have some idea.  Your ability to take multiple trips to FSU is another clue.

The most important point in my opinion: 

It is not how much money you make but how generous you are.

RW use the term "greedy" and they abhor this behavior.  I think it is the top of their list, just above sex tourism.  They will look for clues that might suggest you would control them with money, spend more on yourself than them, etc.  You may not be such a greedy man, yet remember the cultural and language barriers; the RW easily could misinterpret something you say as greedy. 

If they perceive something as greedy, the RW will not give you the benefit of the doubt.  You may not be given a second chance nor even an opportunity to explain. They could just vaporize.  So be serious and clear.  For sure, no jokes about finances.

T/G, JB,

For the comments about age difference at interview, my ex-fiancée is 31 years younger and had a successful interview that lasted less than two minutes.  The officer’s first question was in Russian and asked, “How long have you known this man?”  She replied in English, “Almost three years and we have spent 180 (?) days together.”  His eyes got real big and he then fumbled through the documents for a moment.  He next asked a couple of very simple questions and said “approved”. 

Offline Michelangelo

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Re: Best way to describe wealth / standard of living?
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2006, 09:58:47 AM »
Heck, I've even seen people finance a hamburger at MacDonald's on credit cards at 18%.   Silliest thing I ever saw.
Maybe it was me you saw? Yep, I always pay everything with my credit card, McDonald's included.

I get an airline mile for every dollar spent, and have earned lots of free trips.   And yes, I pay my credit card balance in full online twice a month so I NEVER pay a finance charge.   But when I was dating, it was a big help in getting free trips to see my fiancee :-)

p.s.  JB is correct, that is, if you DON"T pay in full your credit charges each month.

p.s.s. I consider every penny and every chance to earn money important.  So yes, I will pick up a dime on the floor  :)

p.s.s.s.  It's true that FSU girls do not like greedy men.  But it's also true that FSU girls are very frugal and will pinch pennies to the nth degree.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 10:03:57 AM by Michelangelo »
The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.  michelangelo

 

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