Opening a can of worms

[IAmZon]

I would like to gently open an issue that could quickly get out of hand. So everyone , please, take a deep breath, be patient, and contribute your thoughts.  There is a clear benefit of "trading up" at work here.  It seems to me that "Trading Up" takes two primary dimensions beauty and youth.

It seems that the "trading up" factor is less than a decade ago.  It seems that it is greater in selected areas - secondary cities.  Age gaps are well covered in other threads.  But beauty .... not attractive, not pretty, not well proportioned.

BEAUTY (let's forget all other IMPORTANT things for a moment: education, grace; sexuality; age gaps; charcater).  Beauty lives in the eye of the beholder - BS!  Beauty is easily and universally recognised by all - look at all the heads snap when a beautiful woman walks by in a crowd.

I have heard again and again that more women are more beautiful in Russia.  And I am an enthusiastic believer. 

BUT, as I critically examine the profiles on several large sites ... I do not find an excessive inventory of 9's and 10's:)  In our fantasy Anastasia's site would be real- I am sad to admit it is not. 

I remember reading one of Thor's recent posts where he warns: "it is almost impossible to find a very beautiful Russian wife." This is comming from a person who has expended great effort to do just that (and presumably succeeded).

So, my friends who know, considering Beauty alone:  what is the reality today?

[Nando]

The amount of average good looking girls in Odessa, the town I visited is much bigger than in west cities like London, Paris, Amsterdam and so on.
The probability of finding a good looking and good one is bigger than in the west.
The limiting factor is TIME spent there...
we simply do not have enough time.
Once you go there you become hooked
You want to return 

But if you want a model 10 prepare your wallet

[ScottinCrimea]

I think it's a combination of things.  I do believe that the FSU has a much higher ratio of beautiful women than the US.  The first few times I visited I was doing double takes every few minutes as I walked down the street.  I also spent an entire summer at the beach on the Black Sea and observed women from all over the FSU.  Another thing is how they carry themselves here.  You're not going to see a Russian woman going out shopping in sweats and flip flops.  They dress well and they dress like women.  They aren't afraid to be feminine.  They'll wear high heels in all weather as well as make-up. It seems in America, women are trying to be more like men in everything, including the clothes they wear.  And one really important factor in attraction is that they are not aloof.  They are approachable with little or none of the "attitude" you see in beautiful American women.

[jb]

So, my friends who know, considering Beauty alone:  what is the reality today?

Hard to say, but as the economy continues to expand over there, more and more younger RM are having the ability to vigorously pursue the local 9's and 10's.  I think that was the gist of Thor's thoughts. 

Five years ago it was common to meet with Russians who earned less than $300 - 500.00 per month in Moscow. Now even the younger guys just out of university can easily land jobs which pay $1,500 - 2,000 per month in Moscow.  I have anecdotal evidence of this.  If he is still living in the family flat, and not in debt to the eyeballs for toys, cars, and such, that is a huge jump in disposable income for the local RM.  He's also there 24/7, speaks the language, understands the culture, and can take the girls out on a steady basis.  As a sometimes visitor to her town, you can't compete with that.  The unmarried 25 y.o. knock-your-socks-off, movie-star-beautiful, drop-dead-gorgeous, 10 girls, are not lacking for attention.  The competition is going to be fierce for her heart.

I've been saying this for some time, the old days when a Blue Passport and a fat wallet could win a beauty are prolly over forever.  The truly beautiful girls were never really so desperate, they always had other options, but a few could still be bought with promises of the good life as seen on Beverly Hills 90210. 

If trading up for the sole sake of beauty is what you are after, then I think you are in for some tough days ahead.

[Michelangelo]

Well said, JB.  The times they are a changing.

And my two bits-- You don't want a "10" anyway.  Such girls are spoiled.  All their lives they have received special treatment--not for their goodness or merits--but simply for their looks.

[KenC]

rivardco,
Boy, you ask some good questions!  MY opinion is that RW appear more beautiful than AW because of a few reasons.  #1 they are thinner and take more pride in their bodies than AW  #2 RW are not afraid to be sexy and are in general more feminine than AW  #3 They work hard to look their best at all times in public.

jb is also right on the money as far as availability of the better looking women.  There was a time when a RM just couldn't afford to get married and support a wife.  It wasn't that there was a severe shortage of RM (as some say), but a shortage of RM with the where withall to financially enter into the marriage vows.  As the financial standing of RM improve, there will be less and less women looking to relocate.  The best looking women will disappear first.
KenC

[FSUrookie]

I see we have an interesting post, heating up quite quickly. Well, where to begin....
I have to say there are many good and valid points made by the posts in this thread thus far. Now, I will jump in with a few comments of my own.
1) MANY Russian (and Ukrainian) women still only earn an average of $100 - $200 a month while in school. This represents a large chunk of women (18-24) that many men on this board pursue.
2) If you can get a 9 or a 10, go for it, just as long as she has something on the inside too, as THIS INNER BEAUTY is what will sustain a marriage for the long haul.
3) FSU women are slowly becoming more like AW. More stuck up, more conceded, even looking like they just walked out of one of our fancy shopping malls and Saks Fifth Avenue. (I will add, nothing wrong with feminine, as this is good, but HIGH-MAINTAINANCE is the danger word here).
4) There are still many good catches in the 7-8 category, as "Good" Russian men are still hard to find (good meaning having morals and not drinking or cheating on their women all the time). Plus, most of the good responsible RM are taken at early ages.
5) The hardest thing I have found about the chase is finding a good woman in the 25-30 age category. If there are a few left in this group, many times they are the rejects, but not always. Otherwise an AM must choose under 25 or over 30+ which can be a problem if you still want your own kids.

I could go on forever, but I will end it with the bottom line.
Dating there is becoming like dating here in the USA.
The main difference for us AM is that it really SUCKS to get burned, rejected or scammed after spending a few grand over 5000 miles away, while for the FSU woman, it is just another date.
Oh well, the chase goes on........

[Son of Clyde]

I agree, Russian women are extremely fashion conscious and fastidiously clean.

Even a 7 or 8 Russian woman is far better looking than a 7 or 8 American woman. Or maybe it is my imagination.  ???

So in many ways a 9 or 10 Russian woman is probably a scammer or a model used to promote an agency.

[IAmZon]

Thanks for the comments so far -

JB, I am not ONLY interested in beauty (it is not the most important criteria for me, actually).  However, I wish to UNDERSTAND the notion of beauty as it is applied here: the myth, the availability?

The levers, it seems, are TIME and MONEY (as it always is, and always will be).  Then, how much has the economy improved?  And, in what regions?  Importantly, what does this improvement translate to in real changes in lifestyle?

How about the nature of RM?  In the agency hype, one is to believe that as soon as a RM is 23 he becomes and abusive drunk.  While this is certainly not the case, there does seem to be much evidence to support the idea that RM, generally, are course, self-centered, and without high prospects.  True, or false?

[IAmZon]

PS - High Maintenance is a deal breaker for me!  I could deal with leprosy before that.

Just the thought makes me want to run to the bathroom BLAAAAAA

[ScottinCrimea]

According to the latest statistics I've seen, the ratio of women to men in Ukraine is 117 to 100.  The qualities that a woman looks for in a husband are, in no particular order, the financial ability to care for a family, not abusive, not a heavy drinker, educated and emotionally stable.  That narrows the field considerably.  There are just a lot more women with the qualities that men want than there are men with the qualities that women want.  In Ukraine, the law of supply and demand is in our favor and, while it is slowly changing, you old farts still have a window of opportunity.

[FSUrookie]

Hey Scott, what about us middle-age farts?
lol
Anyway, I'm a decent looking guy, and have a good job, and am certainly not an alcoholic, in fact I seldom drink, however, I have found that it is still quite a challenge to land even a 7 or 8 FSU woman.
The main reason for that is time & distance, as has been mentioned here many times. I do like the fact that you can get more for your money there (in terms of looks and beauty), AND even get good qualities such as; traditional and family-oriented.
I've had decent success considering that I have only made a few trips to Russia and Ukraine, and only dated a small number of FSU woman. I figure if i have enough TIME and MONEY, I will be successful because I do have some qualities to offer to a good FSU woman.
Heck, I even dumped a 22 year old Russian girl who wanted sex all the time, because she had nothing else to offer me in terms of being a family woman (so I found). That would be unheard of for the typical American male mentality; SEX first, worry about everything else later.... Of course I am oversimplifying, but it is very much true for many men.
Anyway, bottom line is, if you have something to offer, the playing field is much more level in the FSU, at least for now it is, but as we know, that is changing by the minute......

[jb]

1) MANY Russian (and Ukrainian) women still only earn an average of $100 - $200 a month while in school. This represents a large chunk of women (18-24) that many men on this board pursue.

If you are young enough to date school girls, this may be true in the backwoods.  If you go to town and date adult women you will not find this to be the case.

Hey Scott, what about us middle-age farts?

I assume you are talking about 40-50 y.o.'s here. 

I don't want to rain on your parade, but I see some "wishful" thinking going on here.  Middle aged old farts chasing 18-21 year old girls will generally yield a negative result.

The main difference for us AM is that it really SUCKS to get burned, rejected or scammed after spending a few grand over 5000 miles away, while for the FSU woman, it is just another date.

Then you are prolly dating over your head and out of your league.

[KenC]

rivardco,
My impression is that RM make better boyfriends than they do husbands.  They will spend their last ruble to make an impression on their girlfriend and certainly would never ever accept going "dutch".  After marriage is a whole different thing though.  Are they all alcoholics? No, but the rate of alcoholism is much greater than here.  Do they all abuse their spouses? No, but the Russian laws are very lacks on spousal abuse and there is some bases for the Russian saying, "No beat, no love" in reference to husbands smacking around their wives.  Do all RM cheat?  I have to say no, but almost every RW operates under that impression.  There fore I would say while RM may make better boyfriends, AM make better husbands.
KenC

FSUrookie,
 "I do like the fact that you can get more for your money there"
Very crude.
KenC

[jb]

rivardco,

JB, I am not ONLY interested in beauty (it is not the most important criteria for me, actually).  However, I wish to UNDERSTAND the notion of beauty as it is applied here: the myth, the availability?

You are the one who established the criteria for the thread when you said:

So, my friends who know, considering Beauty alone:  what is the reality today?

[Turboguy]

Now I am happy jb.  You finally said something I can disagree with. 

As far as your statement:

MANY Russian (and Ukrainian) women still only earn an average of $100 - $200 a month while in school. This represents a large chunk of women (18-24) that many men on this board pursue.

If you are young enough to date school girls, this may be true in the backwoods.  If you go to town and date adult women you will not find this to be the case.

If you only take Moscow into account yes you are right.  Anywhere else an I don't agree with you.   Even in Kiev there are lots of people making $ 200.00 a month with a reasonably good job.  Luda when she worked in the workshop in N. Novgorod made $ 200.00 a month and considered that a good income.  The last I heard she was working as a secretary for a large company and making $ 110.00 a month and struggling with that income.   Go to someplace like Lugansk and you will find teachers and nurses making under $ 100.00 a month. 

The main difference for us AM is that it really SUCKS to get burned, rejected or scammed after spending a few grand over 5000 miles away, while for the FSU woman, it is just another date.

Then you are prolly dating over your head and out of your league.

Not everyone finds Miss Right on their first trip and it is common to make a WOVO and come away very disappointed.  I am likely the all time champ at doing exactly that.   What FSU said is just part of the process.  It does not mean he is out of his league.

[FSUrookie]

Thanks Turboguy. Considering my limited number of trips, I feel that my endeavours have been meaningful. Some guys get a little too worked up on this forum, and I'm just putting my 2 cents worth in. As for dating FSU women, seems like there are many unique situations, and it helps to be armed with all the information possible.

P.S. Having made a number of good friends in the FSU countries, I have found that most salaries remain ridiculously low, as said. Exclude cities like Moscow and Kiev because they are the exceptions not the rule.

[jb]

T/G,

It seems you pour over my posts looking for a typo or something, anything, with which you can disagree.  I've never intimated I was expert on small city or hinterland women, or their wages.  When I comment on wages I always specify Moscow because that's what I'm familiar with.  It is also a fact that most of the young people with anything on the ball migrate to the big cities because that's where the jobs are.

My youngest step-son is 21 y.o. and not even out of University yet and he is earning in excess of $2,000 a month right now.  Of course, I think he is exceptional.  However, he does live at home in the paid for family flat, he is not in debt to the eyeballs, is not an alkie, and he has seen a rapid and steep rise in recent disposable income.   He's one of the young RMs who dates the 9's and 10's of Moscow and is having a great time in the process.  He's a very good looking young man, stands over 6' 2", will graduate with the Red Diploma next spring, very intelligent, speaks three languages with fluency, and has a very bright future.  That's the kind of guy who gets the 18-22 y.o. 10's in Russia.   I don't think either you, FSURookie, or rivardco could compete in a beauty contest with him and his friends.

Please lighten up and stop being so defensive, I'm merely pointing out a growing trend WRT to the beauties of the FSU,,, picking out a cute puppy is not as easy as it used to be.

[Turboguy]

I don't worry about typos jb.  I didn't even mention prolly. 

I think your step sons earnings of over $ 2,000 a month is well above the norm even for Moscow.  I am sure I could not compete with him for the same women.  I doubt if I could have when I was that age for that matter.   The nice thing is I don't have to. 

I won't dispute you basic premise that life is getting better or that the really beautiful woman have more options.   I was just disputing the facts you were quoting and your assumptions about the FSU.  I too am aware that most of your experience is with Moscow and in the case of your statement about FSU that you never had any experience with meeting women the way most of us have to.  What he has experienced is normal and usual.

[Rvrwind]

RM do make better boyfriends than husbands. I have been told this many times by RW.
The biggest mistake I see guys making is not wanting a woman with a child. I can understand a guy 35 or under with this criteria but over that, get over yourself.
I have met a lot of very nice sexy, charming & well adjusted ladies 25-30 with a young child. Most guys don't even give them a second look, or a first for that matter. If your over 40 thats exactly the group you should be targeting & you might have a chance at success.
These ladies sowed their wild oats with the RM & now they want some stability. So she has a kid, so what? No biggy if the kid is under 6 in my opinion.
You can find some real hot ladies in this group & ones that are more settled, more stable & will make much better wives. Times are a changing & 40 year old dudes trying to get 20-25 year olds is becoming passe & unobtainable. The days of picking a puppy off the shelve are long gone. But you can still have that 9-10, however, she may have a little mileage & a little baggage!

[FSUrookie]

RM do make better boyfriends than husbands. I have been told this many times by RW.
The biggest mistake I see guys making is not wanting a woman with a child. I can understand a guy 35 or under with this criteria but over that, get over yourself.
I have met a lot of very nice sexy, charming & well adjusted ladies 25-30 with a young child. Most guys don't even give them a second look, or a first for that matter. If your over 40 thats exactly the group you should be targeting & you might have a chance at success.
These ladies sowed their wild oats with the RM & now they want some stability. So she has a kid, so what? No biggy if the kid is under 6 in my opinion.
You can find some real hot ladies in this group & ones that are more settled, more stable & will make much better wives. Times are a changing & 40 year old dudes trying to get 20-25 year olds is becoming passe & unobtainable. The days of picking a puppy of the shelve are long gone. But you can still have that 9-10, however, she may have a little mileage & a little baggage!

Good points Rivrwind.
However, it's not as easy as it sounds. Ok, I'm 40, and I am one of those guys that looks 30 (based on my dating experiences in the USA). I'm not going to argue what you said, because I agree with most of it. However, as I and others have said many times on these forums, finding an available and good woman in the 25-30 groups has proven difficult. Seems like the 21-25 gals jump for me. Maybe I am an exception, but I was a professional skier / snowboarder until 2000 and now I bodybuild in my spare time. So I think i can compete with anyone. Of course I understand that 25-30 is the ideal group, I just haven't found anyone that I am attracted to in that group, with or without kids. The only thing that I worry about concerning an FSU woman with kids, is the possibility of difficulties in obtaining a VISA for the child and the divorced husband releasing custody. I met a 34 year old woman thru a reputable agency in Ukraine, and she is the best that I have met thus far at any age, problem is she has a 14 year old daughter and we don't know yet if the husband will release custody. Plus, once you go over 30 with any woman, chances begin to decrease for a man that wants his own child. So, no matter which way you go, there are issues to deal with.

[Rvrwind]

Seems like the 21-25 gals jump for me.

Wrong - they don't jump for you - they jump for the ticket outa here! I can give you thousands of examples. He!! I still get hit on by 18 -25 year olds, but I ain't stupid enough to think she actually cares one iota about me. Soon as they understand I live her & ain't a tourist & have no intention of going back to Canada I can smell the rubber as the brakes come on & she makes a u-turn to anyplace I ain't!
Sure there are times that a kid can put a bit of a kink into the situatin & so can the ex, but it really over all, isn't that often. Most RM could give a ratz azz if they ever see the kid. There are some sexy ladies in that group , many I would easily class as 9-10 & a he!! of a lot better looking & in better shape after having a kid than any WW I have ever met.
Doesn't matter what you do or what age group you are chasing, your gonna have sh!t to deal with, just different for each group. I'm just saying if you wanna increase your odds of getting a 9-10, stop looking in the wrong places.

[jb]

I don't worry about typos jb.  I didn't even mention prolly.

Prolly is a good word in South Texas, It means "probably", just less formal and a lot more friendly.

[Kuna]

What is beauty?

If you just consider "eye candy" as beauty then you've very different to me.  Maybe I'm wired differently but to me the "physical lump of person" in front of you just can't be judged as "beautiful" without connecting all the dots. Being with a girl that stops a room when she enters is not important! Being with a girl that stops ME in a room is what matters to me.

How many times have you met someone who was stunning at first site, yet much less attractive when you realised she couldn't walk in heals?

For me it's things like how she dresses, her voice, the way she walks, sits and moves, her laugh, the way she dresses, her reactions to very simple things, her "sense of self", and and way she treats others around her. Beauty ISN'T skin deep!

That's the kind of guy who gets the 18-22 y.o. 10's in Russia.   

IMHO there are no 10-22 y.o. 10's, and I say that from experience.  Two girls I dated in the past left me totally unfulfilled physically because there was just no spark after the initial headrush.  I'm not looking for a headrush!

It's easy to attract the "hot" young ones but I haven't been able to remain satisfied for long.

One, a 20 y.o. professional dancer (not a stripper  ) wasn't a 10, she was off the scale.  She wasn't "beautiful" though because she was incredibly selfish (Not so much inside of our relationship, but when it came to her friends and family her behaviour was terrible).  YUCK!

I met the other when she was 19, I was 36.  She was Dutch and definitely delicious, so much so that my mates would squeal like 16 yr old schoolgirls when we were out and she walked away from the group.  The problem with her was that she just asked the dumbest questions.  Even when we were at home alone I would feel embarrassed for her because she had the intellectual capacity of an 8 yr old.

My selection criteria starts with a "range" of looks I can appreciate, and then the deal breakers are tested.  I think if we were to scour the sites for only the hottest eye candy there will be a lot of unhappy men returning from FSU.

Maybe I'm wrong, but after someone is inside of "the range" I don't care what others think.

Kuna

[Gator]

Rivardo, 
I am sure you will meet many fine looking women in the FSU.  They will have silky hair, smooth skin, playful eyes, hard body and pouty lips.  One may have thick ankles, and while this could bother you, hopefully one day you will look at her ankles and think how beautiful they are because they are her ankles.  On that day you will not notice her skin moles.  Nor will you notice that her breasts have dropped a little from nursing your child.  On that day you are a very happy and very lucky man to have complete feelings of true love.