View of the world

[Son of Clyde]

Maybe something is wrong with me.
I used to think living a modest but comfortable lifestyle was ok.
Never did I go hungry, I could have decent clothes and afford to eat at a restaurant several times a week and even attend a concert now and then.
I am seeing in my younger brothers an intense materialism that I never had. Both are earning in excess of $150,000.00 a year.
My younger brother and his wife live in a $900,000.00 house and have no children. Both brothers have to have the most expensive gadgets money can buy.
My older brother's wife has a $36,ooo.oo mini van with a built in GPS system and a dvd player for the passengers.
Am I missing out on something?
Maybe money is everything.
I am seeing in my wife a slight look of sadness whenever we visit my brothers. I try to tell her these things come with time.
You cannot buy everything now.
We own decent things, but nothing like my brothers own.
Maybe growing up in the 60's was not so great after all.
Maybe I am too much an idealist and not so much a realist.
After Thanksgiving I am thankful for my family and I still do not need a lot of material things for myself.

[Son of Clyde]

If you are wondering why I posted this thread, it was a result of our Thanksgiving. I am extremely thankful for my wife and stepson but maybe they are getting a skewed viewpoint of the US.

My parents were not from wealthy families. My father's family were farmers and my mother's family were Italian immigrants. Her father owned a construction business that did ok but made him no great wealth.

My parents were teenagers during WWII when necessities were often rationed. My mother showed me a card she had to complete at age 14 to buy a new pair of shoes. During the war you had to justify, in writing, the need for a new pair of shoes.

My parents split up when I was 13 so I also saw from a very young age the need for hard work. I found out later in life that mom had to sacrifice just to afford to buy me a Christmas present.

I want to instill in my wife and stepson that the material things you want come in due time.

My wife has a new car, my stepson has a new pc and more video games than I can imagine. They both wear nice clothes.

In time I hope to move near Asheville, NC but not this year and maybe not until the boy graduates from high school.

[BillyB]

I am seeing in my wife a slight look of sadness whenever we visit my brothers.

Hopefully it isn't about envy. The people with the money aren't there for her, you are Clyde. Concentrate on being the best man, within your abilities, for your wife.

[Turboguy]

I think if someone is prone to envy someone else who has a little more it is just part of them and something for which there is no cure.  If you were earning several hundred thousand a year, living in a big new home and had a new mini-van with GPS, they could find someone else who earned a few million, drove an s class Mercedes and had servants to be envious of.

No matter what you have, there is always someone with more.  Material things can not buy happiness.

Some of the most unhappy people I have known were those with a great deal of wealth.   Some of the happiest were people who had little except each other and a loving family.   

[Son of Clyde]

You can't blame a FSU woman for exhibiting a little envy.
In a land with no middle class to speak of she is thrown into a country that does have a middle class.
I am not making up these words either because our interpreter was saying with the economy the way it is in Ukraine there are only the very rich and the very poor.
My wife is learning a few lessons in economics from living here.

[ScottinCrimea]

Your brothers are just doing what American culture tells them they must do.  From the first commercial we see on TV we are taught that the way to happiness is through material possessions.  Unfortunately, there is always a bigger house, a nicer car, a new toy to aspire to.  We look for the pot at the end of the rainbow and it's always just out of our reach.  I had the nice doctor's income, the big house, nice car and more toys than I knew what to do with, but I had no time to enjoy them because I was always working for more.  I chucked it all for a simpler life in Ukraine and a view of happiness based on relationships with friends, family and charity work.  Unfortunately with your wife, this will be difficult to learn.  She got a little and of course it made her happy because she got a relationship along with it but now she's developing the mindset that the more things, the more happiness.  I don't know how you change that when you are surrounded by it.

[calcowboy1]

Gawd, MONEY IS EVERYTHING!!!!!

Ok, Ok, just kidding, hehehehehehehehehehehehe

I would bet serious money your brothers are not "Liquid" and up to their eyeballs in debt.  Explain that lovely invention called "Credit" to your wife. 

ok, back to work, this is costing me money!!!

Cheers!!
Calcowboy

[SANDRO43]

My mother showed me a card she had to complete at age 14 to buy a new pair of shoes.

Wartime ration card for shoes, eh ? Aah, you wealthy Americans : http://www.floriani.it/documenti-eng.htm

[SANDRO43]

Your brothers are just doing what American culture tells them they must do.  From the first commercial we see on TV we are taught that the way to happiness is through material possessions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

[ScottinCrimea]

Taken from the wikipedia link offered above:  "He defines spirit of capitalism as the ideas and habits that favour the rational pursuit of economic gain"...

I'm a diehard capitalist, but what we're talking about here is not capitalism, it is materialism and it is by no means rational.

[SANDRO43]

Scott, one of Max Weber's most relevant points, IMO, is :

Weber traced the origins of the Protestant ethic to the Reformation. In his opinion, under the Roman Catholic Church, an individual could be assured of salvation by belief in the church's sacraments and the authority of its hierarchy. However, the Reformation had effectively removed such assurances...
In the absence of such assurances from religious authority, Weber argued that Protestants began to look for other "signs" that they were saved. Worldly success became one measure of salvation

[ScottinCrimea]

I'm sorry, I have just never met anyone who sees the collection of worldly goods as the way to salvation.  It seems this directly contradicts what Protestant churches teach today.  Maybe IU'm missing something.

[DKMM]

I think what you are seeing here are two types of people, those who haven't "made it" yet and those who have.  We all have different ideas of what that point is, but when we reach it, some of us realize that it really isn't all that great.  Most who aren't there yet want it more than anything.   Scott, you obviously already been there done that and seen how happy it makes you.  I work with guys that don't have a life except work.  I would never trade in my extra 4 weeks of vacation for that extra 5 grand.   

SonofClyde I know exactly what you are talking about, I'm sure most of us here have had friends or family that go through this same cycle.  I know for certain my friends that outwardly appear wealthy, and have the highest income actually have debt issues.  And vice versa. 

On the other hand, money is incredibly important.  But only to a certain extent.  As long as you have enough money to not worry about the future and do what is important to you (comfortably middle class), who cares about the toys and fancy crap?  Its relationships with other people that will make you happy... that is reinforced whenever you go to Russia.  You can't fill the void with a 7 series.

[Turboguy]

To me it is not an issue of who has and hasn't made it.  It is how wisely they use their money.

A long time ago I knew some people.  He was a brain surgeon and she was also a surgeon but I forget her speciality.   They had an income together than most of us would not even know how to start spending.   I was in their new house.  Their kitchen was the size of many houses and had 3 stoves and 3 refrigerators.   Their exercise room on the second floor was about 25 X 40.  The house today would be about 15 million.  It had a big circular drive with a fountain that shot water 40 feet into the air.  They spent all their time worrying and arguing about money.  Their water bill was $ 5000 a month.  (back then).   I could go on but I think you get the picture.  Did they have it made?   Made to me is not what you have it is not having to worry about paying for what you have or what you might have to deal with.  If you have peace of mind on the financial aspects of your life you "have it made"

[Jet]

Am I missing out on something?
Maybe money is everything.

Nah! You're on the right track Clyde, the tough part is that the only way to really convince your wife of that is to show her, by derlailing off that track or hope she comes around in time. I've made and lost several *small* fortunes in my life, owned my first sportfish yacht outright at 34, and have literally had to count pennies to pay for a pizza since then. There are several problems with "stuff". Unless it's stuff that's been a longtime dream that you had to bust your ass to aquire, it usually ain't so great after you get it and you discover you never really needed it to start with. The other thing is that for the guys out there letting outher parts of their life backslide, in the pursuit of money and/or stuff, they'll find out sooner or later that what they've accumulated really ain't worth sh!t, if they have nobody special to share it with.

Liliya went through a bit of this when she first arrived. Where we live, it's not uncommon to see 2 Bentleys, a Masserati, an Aston Martin, a couple Ferraris, and an occasional Lamborgini all waiting at the same traffic light downtown. Mercedes S600s are a dime a dozen, as are Jaguar XK-8s and Hummer H³s. There are more than a handful of $10,000,000+ homes within walking distance from our apartment. One of the biggest things to turn her around was to meet a fellow teacher who's in a similar situation to your brother - huge house in prestegious part of town, no kids, new car every year (the difference is that his money was old family money). They've become quite close, and when she started to learn of the day to day dynamics of his home, his wealth, and his marriage, she really began to grasp the idea of money not being everything, and how a person could have it all and still be miserable (behind closed doors of course).

[Gator]

There are two versions:

1.  "Those who say 'money does not buy happiness', don't know where to shop."

2.  Clyde's philosophy.

I agree with Clyde (and I have some jingle in my pocket).

Mensa members are considered highly intelligent, yet obviously arrogant to want to be recognized as a Mensa.  Do you know a large percentage have low stress ordinary jobs such as delivering mail?  Are they so smart that they realize that the materialistic rat race is not the path to happiness?  Or, are they social misfits unable to work with others.  I think it is more of the former and a little of the latter.

[ScottinCrimea]

a big point that you have to keep in mind with the Soviet mentality is that their outlook is very short term.  They have gone through significant changes so many times in their lives that they really don't have a good grasp of saving for the future.  When they have money, they will spend it because tomorrow there may be another upheaval and they may lose everything.  My wife's parents were considered fairly wealthy until the government under Gorbachov seized the private bank accounts.  They went from rich to poor in one day. My wife at one time saved to buy an apartment only to find that the bank had gone under and she had lost everything.  They still have a healthy distrust for keeping money in banks as do many of the people here.  Not knowing what the future will bring, they have difficulty planning for it. We in American have been spoiled by an economy and government that have been very stabe for a long time.  We know what to expect five years, thirty years down the road so we can plan for it.  By all means don't trust your budgeting to your Russian wife because it's a foreign concept to most of them

[AUsteve]

Money is definitely NOT everything. If you believe it is then your god is materialism.

Gator's post about Mensa members doesn't surprise me, I may be able to work in higher paying positions but prefer lower stress... I'd also happily relocate to a lesser developed country in the future if it means less stress and more time with my family. Family and community mean more to me than anything money can buy.

[Jet]

a big point that you have to keep in mind with the Soviet mentality is that their outlook is very short term. 
By all means don't trust your budgeting to your Russian wife because it's a foreign concept to most of them

My wife must be an anomoly, but if she is, so are many of the other oldtimers' wives. Lil graduated university in 1991 so she grew up in socialist times and went through "the great crash" of the banking system. She is far more religious about saving for the future than I have ever been.

[Son of Clyde]

Gator is right on about Mensa members.
A close friend of mine, a Mensa member has license tags reading
Hi-Iq. She has told me about the Mensan's who are so introverted they have never been out on a date and have zero social skills. But they have a good brain.

[Muj]

Many suggest Mensa members of high profile trials, as OJ's was, as the MENSA members would never be prejudiced by the publicity.  They dont watch TV or read the newspapers.

Clyde, doesnt your wife notice the no kids situation of your brother?  Would she trade her kid for the riches?  I wouldn't trade mine.

[Son of Clyde]

Many suggest Mensa members of high profile trials, as OJ's was, as the MENSA members would never be prejudiced by the publicity.  They dont watch TV or read the newspapers.

Clyde, doesnt your wife notice the no kids situation of your brother?  Would she trade her kid for the riches?  I wouldn't trade mine.

Well my one brother has two step children and the other has an older wife. Both women are in early to mid 40's so I don't see them having children.

I can see in a way my brother's behavior. Their mother was one of 11 children shuffled back and forth between foster homes because her father was a widower and had to work. She wanted a nice home and decent things for her children. This in itself is not bad.

My parents divorced when I was 14 and as I have said before, mom had to sacrifice to buy me a Christmas present.

My brothers have earned their material things but it is not so important to me. I have my iPod, BlackBerry and PC with a cable modem, which are the only things of value I own. I still have a JVC 19" television set but I have digital cable for my family. I have a drum set from 1970 and cannot afford a new set which would cost $3,000.00 and I do not have a band right now either. I drive a 1998, Honda, Civic.

My wife is very observant but may not realize I was overly generous with her for the first 9 months until I realized I was running out of money. I was giving her an allowance of $380.00 a week for the first 6 months. She would go grocery shopping and have spending money for her and my stepson. People were telling me I was being overly generous and I saw this as the bank account dwindled. I have cut her allowance back but people still say I am being very generous. I find giving her one lump sum saves me from going back and forth to the atm machine.

[Muj]

An environment of no spare funds in a child's growing years creates a certain discipline with money in later years.  Also the adult just doesn't value the material as it was never a necessity for happiness.  Lets see, I just retired my perfectly good early 80's inherited NEC TV for a 37" flat screen.  It was the only TV for the last 15 yrs.  But have to admit we both like the flat screen.  Also find spending more time at home is fun now  .   Mine is amenable to the spending limits.  We agree she works if we decide not enough from my engineer's salary minus child support.

[Rim]

A lot of people never really take the time to come to term with what they truly believe happiness to be; I didn't until I was in my mid 30s.

In my opinion, as long as you have enough food to feed your family and a warm dry roof over your head then happiness is a choice. You can make your choice to be happy making 20k or 20m a year, because happiness is nothing more than a state of mind.

For people who are looking for things to make them happy, I think that those people will always find that after each purchase, that there is at least one more thing that they can't be happy without.

[ScottinCrimea]

I found myself pursuing everyone else's idea of happiness and it took a long time for me to realize that it just didn't work for me.  Most of my family still thinks I'm crazy to have given up an income well into six figures for the simpler life in Ukraine.  They are all still working two jobs trying to "make ends meet" and "get ahead" looking for that financial stability at the end of the rainbow. Even my father, who is 70 years old, has two retirements and a wife working as a nurse started working a couple of months ago at Wal-Mart because he couldn't keep up with his expenses and credit card bills.  He's farther behind now than he was when he "retired".  Here, I'm more financially stable on a lot less money and I actually have the time to enjoy life and spend time with friends and family.
     In the US, people spend an hour working to pay someone else to fix their dinner at a fast food place or restaurant.  Here, people spend that hour fixing the food themselves.