Introduction and Request

[smsmsmsm]

Hi

I just joined this site, and I would like to introduce myself and request permission from people here for my presence. I am currently a researcher at the university. I am researching the issue of mail order brides. I am particularly interested in the perspectives of men who have communicated with and are interested in foreign women. I am also looking to interview people. This is totally legitimate research. I decided to take a chance with this site to see if you are open to this.

I don't want to be intrusive, so I would like to request members' permission for me to join the forum and communicate with you. If you need more information about me, I would be happy to disclose more, including the university, the research, and limited personal information. My research really needs your assistance, and I hope you can consider this request. Thanks!

Ada

[KenC]

Please do tell us more.
KenC

[BillyB]

Ada,

Most people who I've seem come to the forums who do research, interview or ask guys to participate in an article or tv show end up adding to a not so good stereotype of the people in this endeavor. If you do lots of reading here. you'll get a feel of the type of people here in this forum. Many more successful and intelligent than the average person. Their wives and fiancee's are also that way too.

[solomon]

Ada. I would probably disclose more about yourself to try and allay concerns of chilling communication.

[ScottinCrimea]

In addition to telling mor about yourself, I would request that you ask permission from anyone involved before using any quotes, stories, etc.  While I have no problem with a study of this area, I think we all want to keep this a safe place to discuss personal issues without fearing that it will show up in a tabloid.  Also, I have some concern with your use of the term "mail order bride".  This is a misconception that I hate to see propagated.

[smsmsmsm]

Hi ScottinCrimea,

Thanks. Yes, I will definitely ask for people's permission to use stories and quotes. You are definitely right about respecting people's privacy and providing this a safe space for people to discuss their personal issues. Yes, I agree with you that mail order brides is not the right term. I am struggling to find a term that would best suit the crosscultural correspondance dating or marriage. Thanks for reminding me of that. I really appreciate it.

Ada

[Gator]

Ada,

Do you know about the scientific survey done by Chester Arthur (deceased) about three years ago?  It was about to go into peer review when he died, and what happened is not known.

I copied and retained some of what he posted at another forum (and that is also gone).  His summary:

MARRIAGES BETWEEN RUSSIAN WOMEN AND AMERICAN MEN

After 30 years of living and working in Russia and observing many romances between Russian women and western men, I decided to begin a study of this phenomenon. The focus of the study is the so-called Mail Order Bride who is courted via mail and electronic means and periodic, though typically brief, personal visits.

Background: I am a UK born, Canadian and US citizen. Was married for over 40 years to my childhood sweetheart and a few years after her death, married a wonderful Russian lady. We have been married for 10 years.

Methodology: By examining the marriage records in selected areas and performing a follow-up examination of public records as well as conducting interviews with individuals and couples, an interesting set of statistics has emerged regarding the characteristics of Russian-American romances. Additionally, many interviews of Russian women were conducted in several metropolitan and a few rural areas to determine the knowledge base and attitudes of the women seeking western men.

Study Participants: Statistical analysis and basic research was performed by students and volunteers. Interviews were conducted by mature same sex persons with professional medical or psychological training. Interviews of Russian women were conducted by native Russian speakers who are well trained in eliciting accurate answers. Conflicting and contradictory statistics and interviews were discarded.

Study Weaknesses: There is no way at this time to insure that any part of the study represents any valid statistical sampling of any group. The general conclusions may only be regarded as indicative and certainly not as definitive. Future analysis and correlation may alter significantly some or all of the indicators presented. Additional data may also alter significantly the statistics. Marriages which occurred overseas are presently excluded, due to the methodology employed.

1483 Russian women who are listed on one or more introduction services were investigated and 345 in depth interviews were conducted. 86 Russian women who would never allow themselves to be listed on any dating service were interviewed in depth. 1721 Russian-American marriages were identified and tracked and 334 in depth interviews were conducted with both spouses (or former spouses). Additionally, 217 men were interviewed whose spouse or former spouse refused to be interviewed. Marriages from 1 January, 1996, through 31 December, 2001, were included in the study. This study began in June of 1997 and continues to this day.


A few interesting results:
1.   Less than 40% of the men who marry Russian women participate in internet discussion groups on the topic.
2.   Over 98% of the women seeking western husbands via introduction services are aware of the ability to file violence charges against a western man
3.   84% of the women seeking western husbands via introduction services have no moral or ethical qualms about false domestic violence charges if it serves their purposes.
4.   Currently, 52% of marriages fail within a year. 67% fail within two years. This is a considerable increase from the beginning of the study.
5.   Male "Positive thinking" advocates have a higher overall failure rate in the first two years than the "Negative thinkers."
6.   60% of the women did not love their husbands when they married
7.   99% of the men 'loved' their wives when they married.
8.   Marriages that result from a proposal during or just after an initial meeting of a month or less fail within two years 92% of the time.
9.   Marriages that result from a proposal during or just after an initial meeting of two weeks or less fail within two years 97% of the time.
10.   Marriages that involved a woman in a rebound state (new serious relationship which began less than six months after the breakup of a relationship) failed within two years 89% of the time.
11.   Marriages that involved men in a rebound state (new serious relationship which began less than ONE YEAR after the breakup of a significant prior relationship) failed within two years 94% of the time.
12.   Marriages that resulted from 'normal' introductions among women who would never allow themselves to be registered with an introduction agency failed within two years 11% of the time (but the number of these is quite small).

At the beginning of the study the common wisdom in Russia was that a woman should simply marry the first marginally acceptable male and suffer for two years until the permanent residency was assured (Day 731 syndrome).  A major shift happened in Russia early in 2000 and the emphasis has increasingly been to grab the first gullible male, and file a DV charge as soon as practical or whenever justified.

ADDENDUM

In no way do we imply or state that Russian women from the agencies are familiar with all the particulars regarding immigration.

The information regarding ways to avoid and even manipulate the system with claims of abuse are quite readily available and it is written in Russian.  Finally, this does not imply that the women intend to use this information in a nefarious manner, just that the information is quite available and very commonly known.

My primary interest is to understand a bit of the dynamics of the men and women from North America and Russia who are engaged in seeking each other out for marriage and perhaps ascertain a bit of the overall prospects for fulfilling unions.

In the time I have lived in Russia, I have witnessed a very large number of marriages between Russians and Americans (USA and Canada). The dynamics of these relationships are quite interesting to me and to my Russian wife.

Contrasting the disasters and the quite successful and balanced marriages may offer a bit of insight to some who are interested in traversing this path and perhaps will enable a few to improve their chances for fulfillment.

We selected women who were listed on agencies who had a significant presence in one or more of the major cities in western Russia. There certainly is the possibility that there is some bias in the methodology that was used. Measuring the extent or lack of the presumed bias is not possible with the knowledge that we have at this time.

In contrast to this sample, the circle of acquaintances that the study team has also are quite aware of the possibilities of women utilizing western laws to promote a selfish agenda.

The entire point is to be aware that your lady probably has at least a passing understanding of the techniques that may be used to insure their continued stay in the west. If discussion reveals disgust with the actions of unscrupulous women, this would tend to be a positive and affirming sign.

Russia is a society based to a large extent on rumor and innuendo. People talk to each other in great detail about all manner of topics.

The best question that has ever been asked is your concluding one:

"It will be interesting to see where the final numbers fall, but with so many variables, will it really paint a clear picture? "

To the western mind no amount of statistical information, analysis and interpretation will ever yield a clear picture regarding Russian culture and the Russian people. This certainly applies to those who decide to build a family with one of these wonderful, but completely alien creatures. Western men must simply love with great tenderness and patience their Russian ladies. The same applies to western women who marry Russian men, but that is a topic for a far different forum!!

Even with the dramatic changes in Russian society in the past few years, the Russian people (from the western perspective) remain contradictory, enchanting and wonderfully frustrating.

It is certainly possible to establish a relationship with a Russian woman that results in a rewarding marriage for both. This does require considerable maturity, patience, dedication and wisdom. It also requires that the men be honest and straightforward with their intended and most importantly, with themselves.

[Bruno]

Gator, your statistic are interesting...

but have you something about the success rate of marriage when the man choose to live outside USA... we have already some members living in Ukraine or Russia, some who have move with the bride to other country ( by example Italy )... until now, i have never hear of misluck marriage when it is the men who move to a other country or both who move to a other country...

[Globetrotter]

OK Ada, I'll play.  Since I'm about an hour from you, you can meet me as well.  And, if we were to do this the week of the 20th Dec., you can meet the doc as well as she'll be here for Xmas. 

For your info, I'm 54, she's 44, both highly educated, neither in a hurry, neither needy or dependent or co-dependent, both well traveled, both financially secure, both with good and fulfilling jobs, both with lots of hobbies and interests,  both from loving, caring families, etc.  There...I've started the interview.  You can continue right here, via phone, or at Ditka's....who pays for lunch depends on whether you earn a professors salary!

Cheers 

[jb]

Gator,

I read the so-called Chester Arthur reposted AM/RW marriage failure rate 5 or 6,,, or was it 7 years ago.  Very shortly it was revealed to be an internet hoax.  Written by some very anti-AM/RW constituencies.  Probably written by some college girls who were pissed about getting passed over in favor of a RW.

Chester A. Arthur was the name of the 21st President of the United States and his name was assigned to this hoax as a tongue-in-cheek gaff.

I wouldn't put too much credence to any of those numbers if I were you.

[Gator]

JB, you were around RWG 4-5 years ago when this study was posted by Cameraguy (Marty).   Cameraguy met Chester and spoke with him IIRC. 

I will send a note to CG and get a confirmation (of the conversation).  CG and I spoke recently and we talked about the study, wondering what happened.

[jb]

Camera guy did not initiate speculation about this so-called study.  As I recall it was introduced by an another party.
We figured out it was bogus all by ourselves.

Marty may be married to this theory, but I doubt it.  I know he's nuts, but I don't think he's that nuts.   You can look around at the number of married guys here and discount the values listed in that *scientific study* through simple deduction.  Simple logic should tell you something.

[BillyB]

4.   Currently, 52% of marriages fail within a year. 67% fail within two years. This is a considerable increase from the beginning of the study.

8.   Marriages that result from a proposal during or just after an initial meeting of a month or less fail within two years 92% of the time.

9.   Marriages that result from a proposal during or just after an initial meeting of two weeks or less fail within two years 97% of the time.

Gator,

My biggest concern with the study is the alarming failure rate within two years for proposals that happened within a month or less but the study also says there's an overall failure rate of 67% within the first two years. But to reduce a failure rate of 92%-97% to 67%, the proposals that come after one month of an initial meeting must be a respectable number. But we need more info on how this study was conducted and if it truly represented the entire population. I'd like to see where the people sampled lived and what their background is like. It would be more believable if the study said the failure rate was high or spiked "after" two years instead of "within" two years due to some GCG's wanting their green card.

Reading a study like that can scare a lot of people entering into this endeavor but if one is wise, normal or above average, has a decent job, honest with their woman about their life, doesn't propose in their first meeting, honest with themself and chooses a woman that matches well with them, then one might have a 90% chance their marriage will be successful past two years. Otherwise, if you're deceiving your woman, getting a trophy wife when you're nothing special, and propose to a stranger after a two hour meeting, then you can expect a 99% chance your marriage isn't going to last. People who do that can affect a study in strange ways, creates stereotypes and does not do justice for the many normal folks who do have solid marriages.

[Gator]

The interpreter I use was a 6-hour wonder.  Her American husband proposed to her 5 1/2 hours after they first met.  That was 10 years ago and they are still married with children.  So that throws a lot of theories out the window.

By the way she gives great 3-way phone service at a reasonable rate.  And she gives very wise advice, even evaluating the tone of the woman's voice.

Elena Henrickson's email:  elen@cmspan.net

[Gator]

I attempted to post a long reply here but was forbidden access.  Here is the first part that does pass the police.

In response to earlier posts CameraGuy (CG) attempted to post; however, his account was forbidden. CG sent me the following note to post about the Chester Arthur study. 

As you can see, CG is a stickler for facts and balanced journalism, obviously related to his photojournalism assigments (including travels to the remotest parts of Russia such as a Gulag near the Artic Circle).

The reader can decide for himself.   And a good detective would have fun with this one. 

Note - By deleting email info I was able to enter all of CG's post instages.

[Gator]

From CG:

My former fellow RWG moderator Bucky (Gator) kindly sent me an email to say that he'd referenced me in a thread regarding the preliminary results of a study that I first read on RWNA-TT (another RW forum founded by "Shane Neff" and George H., aka "Yutch"), which I re-posted on RWG in 2002. I usually wouldn't betray the confidentiality of personal correspondence, but I'll make an exception to help RWD members decide for themselves the validity and veracity of Chester Arthur and his purported research study. For the record, I still believe that both he and his study were authentic, but I could never verify any particulars. Former RWG owner Spencer Forrest privately expressed his doubts to me, saying that based on emails and other factors, he thought Chester Arthur was a "troll". I'm not sure there will ever be a definitive answer, but it makes for an interesting discussion, even though his preliminary marriage failure results -- if in fact authentic -- sound extreme. Based on my personal knowledge of AM/RW marriages over the last 5-6 years whose success rates are running about 50/50 (or even less), it could very well be true.

[Gator]

More from CG (evidently CG's format had forbidden access; no conspiracy)

Additionally, I feel compelled to respond to a RWD member who's taking severe liberties with the facts. I really detest it when people do
this.

Gator,

I read the so-called Chester Arthur reposted AM/RW marriage failure
rate 5 or 6,,, or was it 7 years ago.

None of the above -- it was four years ago.


Very shortly it was revealed to be an internet hoax.

Not true.


Written by some very anti-AM/RW constituencies. Probably written by
some college girls who were pissed about getting passed over in favor
of a RW.

More BS.


Chester A. Arthur was the name of the 21st President of the United
States and his name was assigned to this hoax as a tongue-in-cheek
gaff.

I wouldn't put too much credence to any of those numbers if I were you.


All total BS. Sorry to say this jb, but based on various fallacious
statements, instantaneous judgments and a few re-written histories I've
read from you over the years, I wouldn't put too much credence in
your posts.

You can look around at the number of married guys here and discount the values listed in that *scientific study* through simple deduction. Simple logic should tell you something.

Simple logic tells me that guys who've had failed marriages with RW
don't hang around forums like this, constantly crowing about their
omniscient expertise.


Marty may be married to this theory, but I doubt it.  I know he's nuts,
but I don't think he's that nuts.

Thanks jb, I love you too.

BTW, I second Gator's recommendation of Lena Henrickson. She's an
excellent interpreter.

[Gator]

More from CG (with email addys deleted),

23 September 2002

Dear Martin,

Thank you very much for your kind and gracious letter.

I did go to the forum you mentioned and scanned through a few of the
items that were posted.  There were some good comments that are quite certainly worthy of consideration and discussion.

I will seriously consider entering my thoughts in the forum if the list
owner is interested in such a discussion.

There were some references to an "INS Study" in the threads.  It would
be wise to read the referenced paper in detail, since it has some very
good information and conclusions.  The statistical base of the Scholes
study measures primarily Filipina-American marriages.  Until recently
the statistics regarding Russian-American marriages were quite scant.
Filipina-American marriages have been happening for many years and have been studied in detail by a many researchers.  Russian-American
marriages are increasing dramatically in number, but do not yet have
large numbers and long history behind them.

Additionally, the two year failure rate of American-American marriages
is approximately 8 percent overall.  The lifetime failure rate of
American-American marriages is just under 50 percent.

In our study there are many statistical analyses that could be quite
pertinent to developing a clearer picture of Russian-American
marriages.  These include: age differences, ages of the partners,
number of marriages, children and their ages, etc.  As the analysis is
completed and verified, these will be presented, along with other
items.  At this time we expect that it will take between 9 and 12
months to complete the analysis and validation of the data we have
gathered.  At that time, the complete paper will be published.

If you have further questions, feel free to present them to me.  I will
be returning to Russia soon, but will have my access to my western
email regularly.

Thank you for your interest.

Chester

[Gator]

5 Dec 2002

Hi Martin,

I have just returned to the US for a short visit and Finally (!) can
take a break to reply to your letter.

I did 'join' rwguide, but have not been invited to participate by the
moderator, as far as I can tell.  Therefore I have not responded
directly to the group about the status of the study.

As I recall, when I first received your letter and tried to view the
discussion, there were some really good questions.  Now I can not seem to find the discussion again.  I should have written the items down!

(Here are a few answers from memory - Forgive me if I do not recall
exactly)

It is true that I am relatively advanced in age, but fortunately am
blessed with good health and an inquisitive mind.  My wife is a
practicing scientist and when we began the study with her and her
colleagues, it seemed to be interesting and worthwhile.  I have no
regrets regarding the study, but I would very much like to conduct some 'classes' for some of the men who are doing this.  I also realize that the men who need the most assistance are the very ones who will listen the least.

The snippets of information we have shared is not the complete
statistical data and is not at all the scientific paper.  It is simply
an small overview of some of the things we have noted that appeared to be interesting to us at the time.  The complete paper (now about 130 pages in length!!) will contain the standard charts, graphs, tables,
disclaimers and other appropriate material for a study of this nature.

We also shared some of the information gathered from the interviews we conducted in Russia and the west.

Much more is to come once we have verified and validated the data.
This is a long and cumbersome process.  We conducted a symposium in Russia recently and had some very good responses (both positive and negative) to many of the items being studied.

Once my email address was revealed, I have been overwhelmed by hate mail.  There has been some sincere correspondence (like yours), but a huge amount has been downright filthy.  I was also subscribed to a number of quite offensive sites and am being bombarded by a large amount of really sick sexual material.  This tends to affirm the
suspicion that there are some rather unsuitable and unscrupulous men
involved in this process.

As an interesting aside, I am very proud of my nationality, as I hope
you are also.  In my public statements, I have claimed to be a "Brit"
as well as a "Canadian."  I have never actually stated on any of these
discussion groups the actual physical location of my birth, just my
"nationality."  Several people have railed at me for the apparent
discrepancy.  One gentleman, a yank from Texas, actually had a very
good remembrance of British and Canadian history and wrote me a letter asking if "thus and such" would resolve this apparent contradiction.
Of course, he was spot on in describing the events that resolve this
situation.  Bright fellow, even if he is a Texan!!

Thanks for your letter.  I hope to hear from you again.

Chet

[Gator]

The last from CG,

This is a snippet of an email I received from "Shane Neff" after I
asked him if he could verify the authenticity of Chester Arthur:

"...Chester Arthur is George XXXXXXXX's (aka "Yutch", a RWNA--TT
co-moderator's) best friend of nearly 30 years. He'll be happy to
verify that he's a real-person and not your's truly:

In 2003, I wrote to "Yutch" after hearing reports of Chester Arthur's
death. This was his reply:

15 Oct 2003
 
Martin,

Thank you for the inquiry.  Chet died this summer after a long battle
with cancer.  His wife and several associated are continuing with the
work. Once the details of his estate are settled, we expect several
more publications and symposia to result from the work he initiated.

Marina, Chet's wife, is a doctor and one of the primary investigators
in the MOB study.  A few weeks before his death, they presented several
papers overseas related to the findings to date.  I expect that early
next year publication of the results will resume and the team will
again be actively investigating the Russian marriage phenomenon.

Yutch

[Bruce]

"In response to earlier posts CameraGuy (CG) attempted to post; however, his account was forbidden. CG sent me the following note to post about the Chester Arthur study."
 
Why was CG forbidden to post  ????  Dan, what is going on that CG can not post  ?  It seems quite odd to me since the only posts I have seen from him have for the most part been very contributory  .  CG is a very experienced informed poster who has a tremendous amount to add to any board  .  I know he has had tiffs with an agency owner or two from time to time but posters like CG should be welcomed  .

[Admin]

"In response to earlier posts CameraGuy (CG) attempted to post; however, his account was forbidden. CG sent me the following note to post about the Chester Arthur study."
 
Why was CG forbidden to post  ????  Dan, what is going on that CG can not post  ?  It seems quite odd to me since the only posts I have seen from him have for the most part been very contributory  .  CG is a very experienced informed poster who has a tremendous amount to add to any board  .  I know he has had tiffs with an agency owner or two from time to time but posters like CG should be welcomed  .

Relax Bruce.

CG is not banned. It *is* possible that he got caught up in one of the few IP bans - but I just checked the ban list to be sure, and CG is not among them.

I need to check with Gator to get more specific detailed information about the problems he experienced, and then I should be able to sort it out.

Yesterday, when I increased the posting limits to allow large manuscripts to be posted, I noticed some odd behavior that I am still tracking down - so maybe it is somehow related to that. I noticed Gator said something about emails having been a factor.

Anyway, I just need more information to be able to understand what is happening - and resolve it.

- Dan

[Michelangelo]

In academic circles, an unpublished manuscript or research study cannot be considered as accurate.

It has not passed the test of peer review of experts in the field. 

Without such a litmus test, I'd be skeptical of such a "study."

[Bruce]

Thanks Dan and Michaelangelo makes an excellent observation  .

[tim 360]

Correct Michelangelo,  without publishing and devoid of methodology, sources, actuarial weighing and peer review and concurrence of said theory and controls and accuracy of the sampling..... it is whimsy.  Or another internet hoax,  however well intended the originator or it's supporters may be. ???