Making sense of Russian Women Profiles

[IAmZon]

I have spent time going through the many links referenced at RWD affiliate portal.  That exercise has created questions in my mind that I am hoping the group can help out with.

Why is the same lady on several different sites?
(If all the agency is REALLY doing is providing email; address; and coordinating meetings in a given city ... I presume the agencies copy content from other agencies.  So a woman is not agency specific / loyal?)

There is a built in conflict of interest within the Agency concept.  How is it reconciled?
(I see more clearly - especially after reading AVman's Trver TR - that it is TOTALLY against an agencies self interest to loose an attractive and very marketable lady to a marriage!  Obviously! Now I see the term "agency girl" in a much brighter light.)

Lastly, how would you suggest I perceive the fact that an excessive amount of interest exists on the part of RW to meet an AM?
(There seems to be a lack of deliberation on the woman's part for "serious" consideration.  I dare say a "false" interest in some cases. I think an AM is prone to make more out of a correspondence that a RW.  When the two meet, the RW THEN becomes deliberative, establishes the fact that she has little to no interest.  And the man feels scammed.  The only solution SEEMS to me to accept the numbers game ... meet a lot of ladies ... make a lot of trips.  This is may be a marathon, not a sprint?)

[Bruce]

Thats why I always advocate just going to a target rich environment with a reputable agency / guide to help you.  Just do it baby.  Get off your arse and go.  Pick a place with a reputation for a lot of single women that is reasonably easy to get to, or not if you want to go more off the beaten path.  By the way, its called WNVM (write none visit many) or announce you are comming ie. write the ones you are interested in with a letter about yourself to the agency girls you would like to meet, say you are visiting from such and such time and then go  . 

[Vaughn]

FWIW, if I had to do it all over again, Bruce's
recommendation makes the most sense to me.
For me, profiles create only fantasies, personal
meetings shed far more light.

[jb]

rivardco,

You have probably already mentioned this, and I apologize for having missed it, but when do you plan to make your trip?  Have you even yet settled on the destination?

I think Bruce has the right idea for someone in your shoes, if you don't have contacts in the FSU to introduce you to a good woman, then the "shotgun" approach would probably best suit your needs.  It has worked well for quite a few members here.

[KenC]

I have spent time going through the many links referenced at RWD affiliate portal.  That exercise has created questions in my mind that I am hoping the group can help out with.

Why is the same lady on several different sites?
(If all the agency is REALLY doing is providing email; address; and coordinating meetings in a given city ... I presume the agencies copy content from other agencies.  So a woman is not agency specific / loyal?)

The same reason you read many sites!  She is just using more than one resource to put herself out there.

There is a built in conflict of interest within the Agency concept.  How is it reconciled?
(I see more clearly - especially after reading AVman's Trver TR - that it is TOTALLY against an agencies self interest to loose an attractive and very marketable lady to a marriage!  Obviously! Now I see the term "agency girl" in a much brighter light.)

Not with a good agency.  A good agency puts your best interests first (as well as the woman's)  Stick with good agencies.

Lastly, how would you suggest I perceive the fact that an excessive amount of interest exists on the part of RW to meet an AM?
(There seems to be a lack of deliberation on the woman's part for "serious" consideration.  I dare say a "false" interest in some cases. I think an AM is prone to make more out of a correspondence that a RW.  When the two meet, the RW THEN becomes deliberative, establishes the fact that she has little to no interest.  And the man feels scammed.  The only solution SEEMS to me to accept the numbers game ... meet a lot of ladies ... make a lot of trips.  This is may be a marathon, not a sprint?)

This is the tricky part.  Too much attention and expressed affection should be a red flag, but don't get overly paranoid.  You could find the woman of your dreams and run away from her because she likes you too much!

If you are a fsu virgin, I would reccomend staying with a full service agency for your first trip.  Start communicating with women a month or so before you go to weed out the obvious noncompatibility issues ie: children/no children, smoking/nonsmoking etc.  Nothing too deep, but getting your list of possibilities down to as many as is reasonably manageable for the length of your trip.  At this stage you are only looking for possibilities, after meeting you may actually have some prospects.  Consider your first trip as a learning experience only.  Try not to fall in love with the first girl you meet.
KenC

[IAmZon]

Nope ... I am still open.  and KenC that is the real question:  To advance a trip with introductions and expectations;  or to make the trip introductions only.

I was surprised how much understanding I gained in Avman's TR - write none visit many.  There were many things about Turbo's TR that make me strongly consider going with Jack for the first time - but that will not be until May!  And then, there is my new friend KUNA that will show a contrasting approach - write many - filter, filter, visit few.

My greatest attraction to this entire FSU thing is how amazingly analytical one can be at the beginning!  The very evolved structures that are in place to locate a mate.  And the general willingness of the ladies to explore possible compatibilities.  The benefit is You can squeeze 5 lifetimes of dating and meeting in one year.  If there is any truth to the notion of selecting your mate with great care; then surely, something good has to come from this?!?

With regard to which approach: I am leaning to beginning correspondence at the first of the year - write many / visit few.  I think that 2 - 3 months of correspondence can accomplish a lot of filtering; it can separate the fantasy from reality; it can establish more mental and value based compatibilities that would be hard to find in a several day visit. I also am inclined to think a that a 2 - 3 month correspondence as too long for the impatient girls who are not serious in their interest of me; just short enough for one who is REALLY interested.  Such an approach can also develop reliability and trust in advance. An important consideration if I were to meet someone special and then have to leave all over again.

That puts me travelling in late March / early April (when the Spring comes). It is hard to develop an accurate destination without experience ... it is just imaginary.  But how could one go wrong with Kiev? 

Thank you for your patients Bruce, JB, et all.  There are a million nuances that can make one more or less successful.  I am trying to note them all.

[Mir]

Hi

Kiev is allways a good destination but can be quite cold most of March.
One problem is that it is a city which has become quite accessable, you might find it difficult to find girls who are not sort of serial daters if not outright scammers.So by all means use Kiev to meet girls but perhaps aim for girls from other areas of Ukraine. And if you like them then visit their home town which can be quite a contrast c/w Kiev.

[KenC]

rivardco,
You're a sharp guy, but you have some very basic facts ass backward IMO.

I think that 2 - 3 months of correspondence can accomplish a lot of filtering; it can separate the fantasy from reality;

Sorry, but just the opposite might be true.  The more you correspond without meeting can create all sorts of fantasies.  Ever see a movie made from a novel you had read?  They rarely live up to what you imagined while reading it.  The same can be true while corresponding with women.  Yes, you will know more facts about the woman, but your imagination may make her into something more than she is in real life.  Communicate long enough to get the basic compatibility issues out of the way without creating a fantasy that no woman could ever live up to.

My greatest attraction to this entire FSU thing is how amazingly analytical one can be at the beginning!

Key words here are in the beginning.  In the beginning, most men look through a website and are somewhat practical about their choices in women.  Then the next time through they get a little bolder by picking a little younger and prettier women.  Before you know it, they are picking the youngest and most beautiful. :noidea:
Hey, I know because I did it too!  The truth of the matter is that you are in no position to accurately judge RW until you actually go there.  The rules are different from what you now know.  You can read and learn all you can before going over, but you won't truly understand this until you have been there.

But how could one go wrong with Kiev? 

Some will tell you that the higher percentages of sharks swim in the big city waters of Kiev, Odessa, Moscow, St Pete.
KenC

[BillyB]

Why is the same lady on several different sites?
(If all the agency is REALLY doing is providing email; address; and coordinating meetings in a given city ... I presume the agencies copy content from other agencies.  So a woman is not agency specific / loyal?)

My fiancee posted one profile at the dating site bride.ru and within months she was listed at 5 or 6 other sites and her profile was either stolen or bought from bride.ru. I'm sure some women are asked to sign an agreement to be loyal to certain agencies too.

I still promote writing to women before visiting. Av8ror did a good job judging compatability and discarding women he met on first dates on his last visit but he also had been to the FSU numerous times to find a woman he's compatable with.

Writing will not help a guy if he is in love with a photo or not capable of visualizing the person behind the words. But over time, with enough words, I know I can judge a persons character, personality, temper, wisdom, intelligence, and even heart at these forums.

Not on the first letter but a few after, you can ask the ladies about their thoughts on hot topic issues if they are issues with you. If you're big or small on religion or for or against abortion ask them how they feel about those issues. Ask them how they feel about a man's and woman's role in a family. It may or may not be what you want. If they avoid questions important to marriage, then they may not be as interested in you as you thought, not ready for marriage, or not marriage material. Remember, some women aren't looking for a husband but a free ride. You may click with a woman on the first few dates but one person may be extremely conservative and the other liberal. Stay away from politics. A few questions on hot issues may eliminate over 50% of the women you don't care to be with thus avoiding picking a woman out of catalogue based on her profile and photo costing $50 a meeting. Once you connect with a woman through letters, call her. You could tell through her voice if she's into you and thrilled you called or tries to keep the conversation short with her. If you can't hold a conversation with the woman on the phone, you won't hold a conversation with her on a date.

Kuna found three women who is very interested in him through writing and phone calls and he interested in them. Assuming he knows what he's talking about, all women seem sincere and want to take vacations dedicated to him in preparation for his arrival. That's big since they too are making an effort time wise and financially from not working. He's bound to find a decent gal out of the three that's right for him. The rest is up to him to choose wisely.

[Gator]

Rivardco,

Why is the same lady on several different sites?

As BillyB wrote, agencies will “sell/barter/trade” profiles of their best women to other agencies without the woman’s knowledge much less permission.  This is not significant.

There is a built in conflict of interest within the Agency concept.  How is it reconciled?

Not true.  After you meet a woman the agency has no control over what the woman will feel or say.  If there is conflict, it is the difference between what the woman may be telling you and the truth.

Lastly, how would you suggest I perceive the fact that an excessive amount of interest exists on the part of RW to meet an AM?

Because most RW listed with agencies are serious about meeting foreign men with the hope of love and marriage.

I think an AM is prone to make more out of a correspondence that a RW.

True, hence KenC’s advice to just answer some “deal killers” and look for fatal flaws.  Nevertheless, on my first and second scouting trips I followed Kuna’s plan and met many quality women, and each gave me little concern.  Last summer I did a WLVM (L for little writing) and met a few quality women, yet each gave me doubts that could not be reconciled in the tima available.

But how could one go wrong with Kiev?

I agree.  Do not confuse a shark with a picky woman, and women in Kiev are picky (they have a lot of choices partly because many men think like you and choose an easily visited destination).  From Kiev you can travel easily to other cities.

Two recommendations:

If you are very serious about finding a candidate for your future wife - join Elena’s models, write many women without giving much thought to destination, and see what develops.   You will find yourself attracted to some particular women.  Organize a trip around those you could visit in the time that you have available.  Plan your trip, allowing 3 days per destination.  Address backups in your planning.  Something akin to Kuna; however, he had the added objective of researching his ancestry.

My recommendation if you wish to just see what this is about and possibly finding that candidate – choose a smaller city with 2-3 agencies, write introductory letter to many women, address questions such as babies and work, and then go there.  Use one agency to do everything, but have another agency for backup.  Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Kherson, etc.  Something akin to Jerry's just posted Tver trip.

[Kuna]

If I may comment (as an absolute newbie who might turn out to be a chump)...

My initial intention was to wmvo.  I tend to be overly critical about personality and character issues so I thought I would be able to start with about 20 emails and find 1 girl I wanted to meet. In selecting the girls I wrote to, I almost entirely disregarded the photos.  Yes, there were some that I just though "naah" from the pics,  but it wasn't a matter of rating them with numbers, it was more about deciding if they fitted into an "acceptable range".

The initial selection criteria I used was:

- Age (27-30).... narrow I know, but I didn't want to meet anyone too young or "too old".  I want to meet someone I can spend some time with and develop some memories with before popping out kids;
- Height (<5'7")...  I'm 5'10" and generally don't like girls I need to stand on my tip toes to kiss;
- Location (Not too "small town", not Moscow or Petersburg) Because my city has 1.5 million people I didn't want to move any girl to a location vastly different than their own;
- Profession (No students or "models")
- Smile in photo (Call it "potentially artificial" but after seeings BillyB's fiance's smile in THAT photo I think it's a justifiable indulgence I'll allow myself)
- Grooming (More about how they dress and hair fashion than checking out their finger nails and ability to accessorise)
- Contact details in profiles (Email address like "makeyourlegsshake@mail.ru were unacceptable... I think you can tell at least something from some email addresses and no emails for girls that didn't have phone numbers) - This only worked for Elena's Models because you don't get to see on Freepersonals.ru

Other things were important (The most important things) once the correspondence started, but there was no way of seeing that from the profiles.

Some responses to my first 20 emails were slow so I went to another site and sent about 20 more (not sure of the exact number, I guess I could count them huh!)

I found the first round of "qualification was pretty easy".  Girls who's English wasn't good enough to really communicate with, the obvious scammers, ones that just didn't feel right... goneski!  (No, I'm not afflicted by some strange Russian speech impediment acquired only by men looking for a RW/UW. Those who have seen the Australian "Footy Show" will appreciate the term "goneski")   

As the communcation continued it wasn't always easy to qualify the girls but I had to go on gut instinct in some cases.

An example is a phone call I had with one.  The phone call went well BUT at one point I commented on wanting to learn some Russian before my trip and she "snapped" at me saying I should learn Ukrainian because it's the national language blah blah blah...  (Yes, she was from the west).  Anyway...  after the phone call I went back to my list and she failed the "Sensitivity" criteria I set.  She may have been totally right and be able to justify her beliefs... BUT...  I wouldn't tolerate someone snapping at me like that in my everyday life so I wouldn't tolerate it from a "Ukrainian Beauty". 

My intention was always to qualify down to one so I visited just one.

The problem was,  as I continued to probe, ask questions and get into more complex communication there are three that are absolute standouts from the others.  It has nothing to do with their looks, yes all three are attractive, but their personal qualities kept me interested. (If these personal qualities are consistent when I meet them I'll be very happy,  if not I'll go to the next city.)

By the way BillyB... I think it was you that mentioned the dilemma I would have if all three were "great"...  I've worked out my answer to that... Simply, the one that displays she's MOST "into me" is the one I would ultimately choose.  It has to be genuine interest but I wouldn't be in a difficult position if I didn't think she was genuine.  I just like it when girls aren't afraid to show their affection (though too much in public can feel smothering)...

It's interesting to reflect on it now because all 3 have careers, are successful in their own lives, and don't give the "Russian men are drunks" excuse for them looking abroad.  Personally I don't believe that all Russian men are drunks any more than I believe all Western Women are b!itches.

All three also answered my questions in ways that rarely surprised me.  I'm not saying their answers were predictable but they were consistent with how I see the world working, not how we might like to imagine it works. They also asked serious questions, both on the phone and email, and I could tell from their questions that they were qualifying me too.

By the way, my intention hasn't been to simply impress them.  If anything I want to "under promise and over deliver".  I've sent some unflattering photos (though not initially).  When talking about travel I've explained the distance from Australia to Europe and any trips "home" need to be planned well ahead. I've also explained to two of them the difficulty in transferring their careers to Oz.  I've also discussed  the difficulties I've read about with being Ukrainian and living in a new country, and all had obviously put serious thought into the subject.

Most of all, they all appear to be discerning women.  I don't want to end up with a girl who simply wants to get out of Ukraine.  When I asked the question about "the possibility of living in Ukraine" generally the thrust of their responses was that it would be their preference, but they think when I visit I'd rather live in Australia, and they think it would be better for children to be raised in Australia.  At no time were they critical of their country, but they were critical of their politicians, economy, weather, etc...  but all loved Ukraine.

One said in just the last few days that initially she hadn't seen me as a serious prospect because she wanted to live in Europe if she left Ukraine, but she's read a lot about Australia and life down here and she's decided "it’s no important  for me – what  country  or  continent...because my  future family  and my  husband, child  it’s  will  be  my  country..."

Finally, my intention is to meet all 3.  I'm not exactly sure of the process or order I'll meet them in yet but I will definitely finish my initial meetings either in Kyiv or Dnepropetrovsk, cities that I can implement the backup plan if needed.  My backup plan is to choose one agency in Kyiv and Dnepropetrovsk and if all else fails I'll do some "speed dating" for a few days.  If I do this though I won't be doing any speed dating within the last 4 or 5 days because if I did find someone I wanted more time with I want to spend that time to get to know her.

My return flight is flexible and I have some flexibility at work at the time so if I need to push back for an extra week I will... (I might even do that anyway because one of them has her birthday 2 days after I depart, so if she is "the one" I will stay for her birthday.

Anyway, that's basically the process I went through.

It's hard to have much faith in the profiles because 99% of them are so similar.  Photos gave me no indication of who would appear most compatible with me.  It was only the writing, phone calls, probing  and (quite) harsh qualification of the conversations that allowed me to identify 3 that were appealing to me.

Well.. .that's my approach and I'm sticking with it... right up until the moment I change it. 

 Yes, I might change it, but for now I'm happy with my decisions thus far.

Kuna

[BillyB]

By the way BillyB... I think it was you that mentioned the dilemma I would have if all three were "great"...  I've worked out my answer to that... Simply, the one that displays she's MOST "into me" is the one I would ultimately choose.  It has to be genuine interest but I wouldn't be in a difficult position if I didn't think she was genuine.  I just like it when girls aren't afraid to show their affection (though too much in public can feel smothering)...

Yes, the one "into you" is the correct one to choose. Your favorite woman isn't neccessarily the best woman for you. It's important that the woman enjoys being with you too. There are two people in a relationship that need to be happy, not just one. That is why I chose to visit my fiancee, Natalia. She displayed great interest in me and enjoyed it when I called. She'd leave the shower wearing only a towel with her hair dripping soapy wet and take my call. I tell her I'd call back later but she said "no" and she wouldn't let me go.

BTW, Natalia only had one photo in her profile and she wasn't smiling in it. But if you write to hundreds of women, you can afford to write to the non-smiley ones too. You just never know who's really behind that profile and photo until you write to her.

[CaptB]

Ricardo, Kuna.....others

Back in the ancients day of the RWG.......there were alot of crash & burn stories......especially from newbies finding that forum "after" a first trip. Experiences of others, discussions, comparing notes, trip reports, contacts etc........made planning a first trip easier. After 8 trips......and the "best" wife to show for my efforts.....there are things I would do differently (as is almost always the case "after" one gains some experience).

FIRST TRIP

This is where jb and I will always butt heads. Jb was fortunate to have many business trips to Russia....over many years. If he were a stone-cold newbie......his views on this subject may be different. An agency trip is not inexpensive. But the shear volumne of women, in terpreters, organization and efficiency.......can't be beat. Ultimately a "good" agency may be the "cheapest" option in the long-run. If you are not sucessfull the first trip......with experienced gained.......you can return......using the agency on a more limited basis for a return visit. I think the biggest mistake folks make is to "try a new city" each time (they are unsuccessful). If it is a nice city........stick with it..............you will "build" on your experiences there. Subsequent trips will be easier.......and more comfortable.

SECOND (or more) TRIP

Return using an agency on a more limited basis........or go it alone. Many agencies offer large discounts for retuning clients........or offer services "allacart". Returning to the same city will increase your comfort level. Get past the "failure feeling" of the first trip. Fight the urge to go from city to city. Contact several agencies.

It is good to "research"........to a point. Ricardo.......you wear me out reading your posts sometimes (no flame). "Over-analysis will make make you stagnant and indecisive.  I like cameras and photography. I used to read all the equipment reviews......lens test etc. I regularly frequent the Rangefinder Forum. $2,500+ Leica camera bodies........$1,500 - $4,000 M lenses. Scared the crap out of me. Then I started to look at the photo galleries.
99% of the photos (with very expensive equipment) were very plain and uninspiring. But some photographers using an old Canonet GIII rangefinder ($50 - $125 on E-bay).....or some very cheap FSU Zorki, Fed, Zenit cameras (but the lens glass is very good)..........and some photos were breath-taking.

My point. I came to realize that most camera equipment....expensive or not.......probably has more capability than I will ever attain. The equipment does'nt matter that much anymore. I now enjoy...........taking pictures. A good photo will always speak volumes.....whether the "technically" perfect or not. We are looking for a "wife" here. You can analyze, worry, research all you want........and in the long-run may not contribute to your success. Nothing will ever be more eye-opening than that first trip......with actual eye-to-eye contact. An hour in each others company will tell you more than 6 months worth of correspondence.

Letter writing has worked for some. They wrote one. Met one. Married one. It can happen. But if you read trip reports......did a poll........there are many, many more "crash & burns" by those who focessed too keenly of letter writing. Scammers are more patient.....and are learning the right things to say. Nothing beats meeting a women in her home environment.
You can see how her friends and colleagues regard her. She may say her city is boring.....and wants most of "your" visit to be a chance for a holiday trip for "her".......I would tell her maybe on a second visit. If she is too insistent.............walk. A nice vacation somewhere........maybe "after" you connect. You will never get to know the real her.......on vacation. Your chances are better (getting to know her).........in "her" hometown.

IN A NUTSHELL

IMHO extensive letter writing is a waste of time. You will weed-out..........nothing. If using an agency for a first trip......send out intro letters stating you will be in there city in several weeks and would like to meet. No carbon-copy letters. Mine had a basic format, one page or less......but personal. Usually a good agency will have you fill out a "want list" of women you would like to meet. This way they can contact the women and set up appointments and be ready for your arrival. Perceived "chemistry" .........writing letters for six-months.......may evaporate in minutes.......by either party......after an actual meeting. Losing all those expectations can be draining.....emotionally. Letter writing is attractive for those.......on the "cheap". But to follow through this process until the end.......will not be. That is a finite reality. Pick a city......make a plan......go. In most cases all of this "overanalysis"......will be a nice hobby........but will contribute little. If you can only have one vacation a year.....this probably is not for you. After meeting my (future) wife.......much more than 3-4 months appart became difficult. Why wait until late Spring or Summer? Hop on a plane November, January, February etc. Fares a cheaper. If you connect with someone.......that Summer visit will be much more fun.......because you won't be spending the time "looking".

Avery nice guy.....Japanese American......early forties, fit, nice looking.......I met in Tver, Russia. He was an accountant. He said he researched the hell out of this (process) for about a year. Came in to the office of LTP with a hundred-fifty pages of notes and graphs.
He was convinced tha being armed with this "book"......he would find his soulmate. After a week of frustration we had a few talks. He realized that I was really enjoying my time in Tver.......but to him it felt like work. He began to realize all those charts and graphs.......were pretty useless. The next day he came into the office......sans.......his notebook. He decided to just savor and enjoy his visit.......and lightened-up. He met....and enjoyed the company......of many women. And did find his match. They are married......and very happy.

1) Forget about long letter-writing campaigns.

2) Pick a city.....makes some plans.......just go. Winter is a great time for "looking". Save a Summer vacation "after" you find someone.

3) Visit her in her city. Save vacations for "after" you have found someone.

4) This endeavor will cost you thousands.....do you have it?

5) Can you take off several times a year (not as critical for looking.....but after you have found someone) ? Don't take this factor lightly.


Capt B

[IAmZon]

Capt B.

Thanks - great advise!  Very timely for me. Well taken; I assure you. 

Yes, I am surrendering my tendancy to use charts and graphs; over-analyze. Sorry to have worn you out with newbie BS (what about this ... and what about that .... and, ho yea, what about this, again). 

When I frist arrived I was too uncertain and too excited.  I' better now:) 

[Kvinna]

Lastly, how would you suggest I perceive the fact that an excessive amount of interest exists on the part of RW to meet an AM?
(There seems to be a lack of deliberation on the woman's part for "serious" consideration.  I dare say a "false" interest in some cases. I think an AM is prone to make more out of a correspondence that a RW.  When the two meet, the RW THEN becomes deliberative, establishes the fact that she has little to no interest.  And the man feels scammed.  The only solution SEEMS to me to accept the numbers game ... meet a lot of ladies ... make a lot of trips.  This is may be a marathon, not a sprint?)

hm... thee AMs are not such popular among women from FSU as it is shown by MOB propaganda
if you meant why they want to meet in real life as soon as possible,
to not waste time with men who is'n fit for them. And this you can find out only during meeting in real life.

[BillyB]

Letter writing has worked for some. They wrote one. Met one. Married one. It can happen. But if you read trip reports......did a poll........there are many, many more "crash & burns" by those who focessed too keenly of letter writing. Scammers are more patient.....and are learning the right things to say.walk.

I've read a lot of trip reports and the number one crash and burn comes from guys who didn't correspond enough with their woman before a visit. Any time you read a crash a burn trip report, most likely it's because the man never made a single call to the woman. If he did, he might have figured out he couldn't hold a conversation with that woman. Call often and the insincere women would not be able to maintenance a high level of enthusiasm when a guy calls.  A woman into you would enjoy your calls. Tons of guys had gone over multiple times and dated multiple women only to come up empty handed. There could be 1 out of 20 women compatable with you. You might find 1 out of a 100 that's perfect for you. You can go on 100 dates with random women to find the perfect one or you could use letters and phone calls to weed out most of them and concentrate on the ones who enjoyed corresponding with you.

There should be no worries about scammers either. If a woman doesn't answer all your questions, then she's probably not interested or a scammer. One time I wrote "I'm feeling ill today". Some women didn't address the situation. And I didn't address them anymore. Who cares if they're patient and can wait it out for months. They give themselves away within the first few letters if the man is thinking with his big head.

CaptB, what your advocating to men is no different that telling him to throw a dart at a map of the FSU and the closest city to the dart is the city a guy should go wife hunting. That would be a poor excuse for a sane method for searching for a wife overseas. If we are to increase our dating pool and the goal is to the pick the best woman, not a city, then we should give ourselves the best chance for finding the best woman before going to any city.

I know not everyone is good at understanding a person behind typed words or through phone calls but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand a woman who type her words as the one who did here for two days: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3244.0

Some great minds and leaders have used letters to get a powerful message across to ladies and it may take a great lady to appreciate great words. Ronald Reagan wrote over 600 letters to his wife Nancy before and after marriage. Sometimes he'd write her a letter while sitting in the same room in the White House or place a simple note of love on a table only for Nancy to find it later. Nancy has kept every letter Reagan wrote her as she valued his every written word. If you can find a woman like that, she could very well be a keeper.

Ben Franklin wrote love letters to ladies too, even after he met them. Unfortunately he wrote letters to ladies while married to another.

I don't advocate a long letter campaign either. I wrote 600+ women in a week and made a decision in a month and a half. I don't take notes, keep charts, or over analyze anything. Heck, I didn't even read women's profiles but quickly picked their profile based on beauty and focused on their character through what they write. Some women found out the type of guy I was and said "Sorry, we're not compatable" and I said the same thing with some women too. While writing and phone calls doesn't guarantee compatability, neither does a first face to face meeting. But like a first face to face meeting, letters and phone calls can determine who is not compatable with you. This only happens if you use your big head of course.

I've had some women ask me to visit them on the first letter. I tell them I will visit a woman and have the means to do so but I will not visit a woman based on her photo. I tell them to take a little time to get to know me through correspondence and if we are compatable, then I will visit. Some women never write me again  but some respect my words and give me the effort I requested of them. Which woman would give me the best effort if I visited them? The woman who gave me what I previously requested or the woman who never wrote me a second letter or spoke to me on the phone?

[IAmZon]

Excellent views, BillyB.  How could anyone argue with that?

I too think a lot of letters - I enjoy reading and writting them.  Although it is not foolproof, if a woman who can capture my attention and imagination in the exchange of words and ideas, that's a 100%  better bet than a photo alone. 

And yes, phone calls reveal almost everything about a woman's emotional orientation! If you wake her up in the middle of the night - and she is excited to speak - that is a good sign.

I always appreciate your remarks.  When you wrote to ladies, did you use email, or snail mail?

[CaptB]

Billyb,

You focus on one comment I made......but taken out of context. My opinion of writing to many different women........THROUGH AN AGENCY.........with a brief introductory letter......is sound advice. A (good) agency will help keep you out of trouble (if you listen to them and do not disregard their opinions of certain women). I DO NOT ADVOCATE WRITING A BRIEF LETTER TO ONE WOMAN.....HOP ON A PLANE.......AND JUST GO.

Unfortunately......unlike the RWG.......not much info. is given upfront about an RWD member's
actual experience (ie. times traveled to the FSU..........married, engaged to a RW). When each member posts..........you see how many posts a member has made, how many trips to the FSU he has made.......and his status......ie. married, engaged etc. I have made relatively few posts here on the RWD......but I have made 8 trips to Russia......and have been (happily) married to an RW for over three years. I am not saying that many trips gives more weight to my opinion............many folks have made twice as many trips.......and have nothing to show (fiancee or wife) for their efforts. What I  am saying is.......even "one" trip will tell you so much more ....................than someone who has never been there.

I see people with hundreds of posts............but no trip yet. Many opions on the outcome of "letter writing".............but no trip yet.......to see what happens. Yes........some of you will write many letters......fewer still will make some phone calls (highly recomended).......and may even get "lucky" and have things work out. But RWG trip reports number in the hundreds (since I became a member in 1999)........of members who put all their cards into letter writing and even a few phone calls.........met his RW........and knew (he or she......or both).........that they were on the wrong track.......all in the first thirty minutes of ACTUALLY meeting. ACTUALLY meeting..........even briefly..........is worth more than 100 letters. You can't read "body language"..............in a letter. You can't read a persons face........in a letter.
You can't see how the RW's own relatives, friends, coworkers etc. regard HER.........in a letter( the biggest reason for meeting her in HER town most of the first trip......and not at a vacation spot).

Letters can only take you so far......even hundreds of them. They can never tell over a long period of time..........what you can learn in a brief time........face to face. Find a woman which will determine the city.........or choose a city first......then search for a partner.........really does'nt matter which........if you want to debate the point. Choosing a city lets you determine that returning again and again.......will be a possitive experience........if you enjoy the city. I know of several AM who dread trips back to the FSU because their wife's hometown is a dreary place. Find the woman.....or the city.....first. Does'nt really matter.

Most of the folks who put so much stock into letter writing......and vigorously argue the point........have not made a trip yet.

My argument, BillyB, for brief letter writing........was to many RW at one location........and usually through a good agency. You need to read and understand my previous post......as a whole.......and not just bits and pieces.

Letter writing is easy, cheap and pleasant. But it is only the tip of the iceberg. This endeavor will cost not only alot of time........but also money.........and emotional wear and tear.

I know Rivardco has not been over yet. BillyB have you made any trips? No flames......I only come back to help some folks.......as those did......who helped me out.......years ago on the RWG. This can be a difficult trip at times (like my friend jb waiting for his WIFE to arrive here in the states...........after a 14 month wait.......on a K3 !!!!). We need all the help we can get.

Lots of letter writing may lead you to your partner..........but just as easily NOT always expose a scammer...........or an honest RW.........who is just not for you.

Capt B

[DKMM]

Not disagreeing with CaptB or BillyB here.

But I wanted to add, that when dealing with ladies who are "average" on the English skills meaning a 3 out of 5, sometimes letter writing is the best way to get to know them.  Its better than a conversation with someone who can't think of their English fast enough.  I think that is the reason for failure in the 1st 30 minutes.

For 1st timers, I think Kuna is taking the right approach: pick an area, make your plans to go and THEN write a bunch of girls from the places you will go.  Make sure you arrange with a local agency or guide to go to if you don't work out with the girl you picked.  That's the right mix for me, a WOVO with backups.  I just like to hit up a couple different cities and make it a WOVO in each city, like Kuna is doing.

[CaptB]

DKMM,

Actually my comment about everything falling appart after the first 30 minutes of meeting has absolutely nothing to do with language barrier and communication........but rather attraction, chemistry. I helped a guy several years ago plan a trip to Smolensk to see a woman he was writing. He learned some Russian......she spoke English at about level 3 on a scale of one to five. He also lined-up an interpreter to use on occaision. He had witten several letters a day with a dozen phone calls over a five month period. His trip was planned for a 10 day visit. He was optimistic.......and departed. I received a phone call a day after his arrival. He said he knew within the first hours of meeting......that she would not be for him. Unfortunately.......he did not take my advice about a back-up plan. He wanted to make arrangements to come back the next day. I told him it would become a very expensive two-day trip. I suggested he have an honest heart-to-heart talk with her. If she reacts positively.......why not stay and see Russia. The woman was very nice......and understood. She invited him to stay as a friend. He accepted her offer.....and had a wonderful experience. They still keep in touch.

If you are going to use the services of an agency (as you suggested).......long letter writing writing campaigns just are not neccessary. You could spend all that time, energy and emotions........only to find upon meeting........that she is not for you (or you for her). An intro. letter......with a few follow-up letters to learn a little about each other is helpful. If you really want to get some interest.......tell them you have made plans........and "are" coming at such-and-such a time. An intro. letter stating you are coming at a particular time will get the interest of those women who would have chosen "not" to write you for an exteded period of time. Now before you say......"I would not care about those women who would choose not to correspond for an extended period of time..."..............let me explain. On my first trip to Tver.......my interpreter told me she was surprised by several women who replied to my letters. These same women had not coresponded to other men in a long time. I asked "why"? She said because they were tired of long correspondeces......only to later be "culled" from the herd. They had written many men.......but virtually none had visted. They replied to "my" letter because I said I was coming in six weeks......and definately would like to meet. In other words.......they could accept that there may not be any mutual chemistry "after" meeting.........but at least they would like the "chance" to meet. They knew I would be meeting others......that was not a problem. I wrote around 16 letters.....all replied but two. One was already engaged......they had not yet taken down her profile. The other was out of town and could not be reached. She later contacted the office to set-up a meeting after I had been there a week. 

I was a newbie.......but I did my homework. I had conversations with my interpreter, the office manager and others......weeks before leaving. I met all 14 RW who replied to my letters........... about 6 or 7 were very interesting........any of the top 4 were keepers........just very nice women. I think in this way (brief correspondence in conjunction with using an agency)........it is least problematic, less (emotionally) draining than long correspondences...........that will ultimately lead to disappointent for the women that you weed-out along the way. I think the way in which I proceeded with the letter writing issue..........minimised disapointment..........and all of the women "knew".......we would at least "meet". Long letter writing is great for the guy.........but maybe not so good for the RW. Before writing anyone I asked the agency for suggestions.....after discussing what I was looking for. Actually meeting.......just saves both parties.......from wasting alot of time.

Capt B

[BillyB]

BillyB have you made any trips?

My ex of a 3 year marriage was a UW I first met in the States. Even though divorced to an FSU woman, there are many things I like about them. Since then I've been to Novosibirsk, Moscow and 3 times to Tashkent for a woman I'm engaged to. My first trip to Novosivirsk taught me to reavaluate how I communicate with women and not to focus on one.

My writing campaign made sense after failing after the first time. Some guys who lurk PM'd me to tell me the advantages of writing to many women over their old methods. They tell me when they concentrate on one or a few women, they force themselves to compromise to make things work when red flags show up or the woman isn't compatable. With writing many woman, if a woman says something you don't like, doesn't answer your questions, hint for money, or doesn't have the same interests, then you dump her without thinking twice to focus on the many other women who are more likely better and compatable.