Question to Kvinna

[miranda]

I see Admin closed the topik about "Dating Werewolves" book. Sad...
Kvinna, I want to ask you something.
How about the sex tourists that go to Russia to f**k Russia girls for free? Half the men in that book are sex tourists and share with others how they can do the same and have free sex with young chicks in Russia. Is this what your London friend wrote about too?
It seems like you are a cameleon. On antidate you write about how bad are those men and here you write how nice they are. Very weird! What kind of game it is?

[Jooky]

It might be just me, but I always thought that free sex was normal. I've never had to pay for it. Am I doing something wrong?

[miranda]

If you are travel to russia to have different girls every day like sex-tourists do, then yes. I think you don't do that way. When met go to "romantick tours", they know very well why they do go there. 
If a man corresponds with one girl and go to meet her, and they like each other, why can't they have sex then? They can. But when he corresponds with a bunch and meet them and use them, he is a bloody sex-tourist. Is sex-tourist a good thing? I am sure it is bad. 

[Admin]

I see Admin closed the topik about "Dating Werewolves" book. Sad...
Kvinna, I want to ask you something.
How about the sex tourists that go to Russia to f**k Russia girls for free? Half the men in that book are sex tourists and share with others how they can do the same and have free sex with young chicks in Russia. Is this what your London friend wrote about too?
It seems like you are a cameleon. On antidate you write about how bad are those men and here you write how nice they are. Very weird! What kind of game it is?

Yes, I *did* close the topic because it was devolving into an argument with no productive outcome.

While Kvinna certainly does NOT need me to defend her - I will say that she has NEVER suggested the sex tourists are anything more than scum of the earth. In that regard, Kvinna has found an ally at RWD. There are, in fact, some efforts underway in which RWD and Antidate will collaborate (I hope) - and we will be united in opposing scam activities of ALL sorts - both men and women.

Miranda, I will suggest to you again - that *if* you wish to be a contributing member of RWD, please take the time to re-post your Introduction. Make the effort to try to get to know us here - rather than just becoming embroiled in the debates. If you do NOT care to do any of that, quite candidly, it appears you are here for purposes we often refer to as "trollish" - and those behaviors are prohibited by the Terms of Service of the board.

I do not want you to leave. I want you to make the effort to become a contributing *PARTICIPANT* before you launch on your crusade - whatever that may be.

Please consider what I have asked.

- Dan

[miranda]

Dan, I did.


I found several chapters that it is possible to read for free!  On booksie. Google it and read. Pretty cool.  I almost finished it today. Had fun.  Never knew that scammers are so sly. he he
Kvinna I hope we will not be enemy. We both are on the same side.

[miranda]

I am not sure if it a good idea to copy here a part of a chapter. Dan, if it is bad, please, delete this post. Thanks'

[Admin]

Miranda (Yulia),

I need to make a couple of points - and then I will ask the other members to pitch in with their comments.

First, re-posting part of a published work violates the author's copyright - even if you make attribution to the author. It is also bad form.

Next, you seem obsessed with this book. Why?

There is SOOOO much other material here to review - and to inquire about - why are you fixated on this book?

For example, have you reviewed any of the following:

* ScamCard - a small tool for quantifying whether someone may be scamming
* Anti-Scam Table - a listing of sites containing anti-scam information
* The ACoE (Agency Code of Ethics) - designed to promote ethical and honest behavior by Agencies - now in Russian, BTW, found here -- http://www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

Any, or all, of those references - along with the posts in the open forum - are VASTLY more informative and TIMELY than the book you reference. Why then - are you so focused on that book?

- Dan

[miranda]

Why then - are you so focused on that book?

Because I read it now and it is so funny.  I will not mention it again. Just wanted to share. Was laughing many times when I read it. he he
I agree, it abuses a copyright. Please, delete that post. People who wants will find it anyway.  I found another book by Elena Petrova and would like to read it too. Did anybody read her books? Are there any other cool books about scammers? (not too expensive though. hehe)

[Kvinna]

thank you, Dan, for kind words

also I really wonder why such strong interest in scam and scammers?
For women in current situation is more useful to read anout human trfficking and traffickers

[miranda]

For women in current situation is more useful to read anout human trfficking and traffickers

Yes, very interesting subject too. Actually I was lookinf for some information already. As I said, I'd like to learn Immigration Law so all the information is useful. You never know.
Could you recommend some books or webpages about human trafficking?

[miranda]

* Anti-Scam Table - a listing of sites containing anti-scam information

Saw some. Boring.  Better to watch a move or read a book. Also, I read scam scenarios and found them boring as well. It seems like all those scenarios are same again and again. And I just can;t believe that people get it today. So, te really new scenarios people keep in a secret as I think. All the antiscam sites write the same. Same girls, same emails, same OLD scenarios. But scamers are not sleeping and they find new ways fo full people around. And it was very weird that people on the ANTIscam forum tried to quite me when I wanted to tell about new thing. I will not! If you want to know some new you will do it yourself. I tried and you said it is a span or what. OK, think what you want. You guys are not really interested in ANTIscam and I understand because you have an agency and try do not people know how usually agencias work. I read about it today and now I understand why you guys were so aggressive when somebody tried to say the truth. That easy. he he

[Kvinna]

Yes, very interesting subject too. Actually I was lookinf for some information already. As I said, I'd like to learn Immigration Law so all the information is useful. You never know.
Could you recommend some books or webpages about human trafficking?

here

[Bruno]

* The ACoE (Agency Code of Ethics) - designed to promote ethical and honest behavior by Agencies - now in Russian, BTW, found here -- http://www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

Just take a look at www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org ...

Stage 1 is at a reasonable price ( 5$ )... but the stage two, about the ethics, at 500$  Lucky that i am not more in the business... 500$ was the expense for the host, the domain name and the internet connection for one year...

Is it your "certification" only for big agnecy, these who make a lot of $$$... what about the free site or these like Richard was make only a few kopek each month ?

And i hope that you will not add 2 zero more for the stage 3...  :hairraising:

[Bruno]

Better to watch a move or read a book.

Your book is a novel... a story invented... certainly based on the real story find in forum or antiscam site...

You guys are not really interested in ANTIscam and I understand because you have an agency and try do not people know how usually agencias work. I read about it today and now I understand why you guys were so aggressive when somebody tried to say the truth.

The truth  You will find here on RWD or place like antidate... ANTISCAM and agency... i don't believe in all these antiscam site... almost all these site are owned by agency... they post profile from concurrence... and place hundred of their own banner...

Dig in these forum and you will find really scary story... a good begin is the maxx story about GCG... and these story is real, not boring, ...

[Admin]

Just take a look at www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org ...

Stage 1 is at a reasonable price ( 5$ )... but the stage two, about the ethics, at 500$  Lucky that i am not more in the business... 500$ was the expense for the host, the domain name and the internet connection for one year...

Is it your "certification" only for big agnecy, these who make a lot of $$$... what about the free site or these like Richard was make only a few kopek each month ?

And i hope that you will not add 2 zero more for the stage 3...  :hairraising:

Hi Bruno,

Re: Stage 1 Certification. Yes, it is VERY low-priced - but even at that, it is surprising to see how few agencies are actually operating legally.

Re: Stage 2 Certification. $500 is probably the income from one or two (maybe less) additional customers they would NOT receive if they are not certified. Pricing had nothing to do with consideration of the size of the agency. It only addresses the fact that it takes time to review the materials and someone must do that - and be compensated for it.

Re: Stage 3 Certification. Yes, it is certainly possible it would be an additional 2 zeros. But consider what the service consists of. It requires someone to travel to the location of the agency (or at least, nearby) and spend at least one full day reviewing documents and speaking with people. It is imposible to provide that service without there being a significant cost. Yes it is expensive.

Now look at it from the perspective of the end user - the guy (and gal) who is trying to find an honest agency to work with. What resource will you use to identify a good agency? You can use a forum - such as RWD - and that is recommended - but as we see here at RWD and elsewhere, there are MANY disputes over whether an agency is honest or not. The *other* thing to consider is that it is a moving target. An agency which is honest today - may change owners and become a scam next month. That is why the CMA ACoE program ALSO includes the ability to report an agency for bad behavior.

Take a look at the Certification Seal (graphic) at the Khersongirls site. Hover your mouse over it. You will see that each and every Seal is individually assigned to a specific agency. Each one of them allows a first-hand customer of that agency (men or women) to report back to CMA if they have ANY problems.

It is not a perfect solution - but it is VASTLY superior to anything available at the present time.

We recognize that the advanced Certifications are expensive - but they are worth it for the agencies because it will (eventually) bring them new business. We also believe the Certification program is the very best of its sort in any industry. We seek demonstrated honesty and integrity on the part of the agencies who subscribe. If they fall short of the standard, they are de-listed.  For the customers, there is no better indicator of honesty and integrity anywhere in the world.

The ACoE and the Certification Guide was recently made available in Russian - and it will soon be available in Spanish. Soon after, we will make it available in Chinese.

I welcome any other thoughts and/or comments - maybe in a different topic.

- Dan

[Admin]

Saw some. Boring.  Better to watch a move or read a book. Also, I read scam scenarios and found them boring as well. It seems like all those scenarios are same again and again. And I just can;t believe that people get it today. So, te really new scenarios people keep in a secret as I think. All the antiscam sites write the same. Same girls, same emails, same OLD scenarios. But scamers are not sleeping and they find new ways fo full people around. And it was very weird that people on the ANTIscam forum tried to quite me when I wanted to tell about new thing. I will not! If you want to know some new you will do it yourself. I tried and you said it is a span or what. OK, think what you want. You guys are not really interested in ANTIscam and I understand because you have an agency and try do not people know how usually agencias work. I read about it today and now I understand why you guys were so aggressive when somebody tried to say the truth. That easy. he he

Yulia,

I had some difficulty following your logic. Are you saying that you think we, here at RWD, are agency owners - or have an interest in promoting agency business? I do not own an agency - and I have no ownership interest in any agency - and I never have.

Some of the most active and contentious debates on this board have occured in the Scammers section. We have a number of members who are quite adept at identifying scammers and pointing them out. Interestingly, many of those same scam-hunters are the very quickest ones to defend someone who is wrongly-accused of being a scammer.

When this section of the board first opened, I made the point of telling people to be cautious about their accusations. We do NOT want to label someone a scammer unless there is compelling evidence to support it. And part of the problem is that a discussion forum - ANY discussion forum (or website) simply CANNOT interject itself as an authority on scammers - for a bunch of reasons. They have no investigative authority - they cannot equitably determine the veracity of one position over another - they simply are NOT in the position to be objective in the determination. In short, it is FOLLY for a website to assert itself as an authority on individual scammers as they are NOT the police and NOT a court of law, and have NO RIGHT to act as judge/jury.

The result is - we have a section of the board which is open to scam reports by our members - and those are often challenged vigorously. Each individual member will draw their own conclusions from what is posted.

In terms of the changing face of scamming - your logic is simply flawed by arguing that the Werewolves book will have better information than a discussion forum. We have guys who just returned last week from the FSU - we have guys posting who are there RIGHT NOW - we have guys who LIVE THERE and post their experiences. This forum is, by far, the most popular internet discussion forum on the topic of RW in the world and has the most current information to be found - anywhere.

- Dan

[miranda]

In terms of the changing face of scamming - your logic is simply flawed by arguing that the Werewolves book will have better

I never sadi so. I said that (for me) it is more interesting to watch a movie or to read a novel. Forum has lots of information, I agree. I don't agree with one thing and everybody know that it is an abuse - when people post pics about other people on internet or anywhere else. It is an abuse and a person easily can sue those antiscam sites or antidate site with pics. If I'd be a person from thos pics, I would sue antidate or antiscam site and will win because nobody has a right to post my pic without my permission. The only one reason that there are pics on antiscam sites (yet) is that those girls are far or don;t know their rights. I know some girls who had a profile in agency and the agency just stole their pics from another dating site and made "real profiles". Girls wrote them and aksed to delete their pics and didn;t get any answer. I'd sue such an agency and will win and the agency will close or will pay me a lot.  Same with antiscam\antidating sites. If one will sue them once, they will never open such a site again. 
The better is do not post pics of people you never seen and knew, but to tell people how do not be scammed. And all the ways are good - forums, sites, movies, novels, media. You will never help others by posting pics or personal information because there are too many offended or just mad men who post their ex-girlfriends or just girls who didn;t want them and say that they are scammers. If one sent money and can show WU papers, that doesn;t prove that the person who got that money is a scammer. He can tell just anything.  No one court will believe him. It is not enough. How can I be sure that somebody is a scammer only because other person thinks so? I donlt know his reasons to say that she is a scammer. What is if he just avenges her for some reason? I saw it too many times. This is why I believe that the better way is to tell the way scammers act and think than to post pics or personal information. Too many girls (good girls) had problems because of mad "hunters" and everybody knows that! I believe, soon, all those "antiscam" sites will be closed because they abuse human rights.

[SANDRO43]

The only one reason that there are pics on antiscam sites (yet) is that those girls are far or don;t know their rights.

Yulia, you're either naive or confused. The  MAIN reason is that those pictures were attached as a lure to emails by girls who subsequently asked for money under various pretenses.

I know some girls who had a profile in agency and the agency just stole their pics from another dating site and made "real profiles". Girls wrote them and aksed to delete their pics and didn;t get any answer. I'd sue such an agency and will win and the agency will close or will pay me a lot.

So you are the only smart girl around, and the rest are ignorant fools ? OK, easy enough to verify : gives us YOUR picture, we'll report you to an anti-scam site, and then you can make a LOT of money by suing them. Deal ?

there are too many offended or just mad men who post their ex-girlfriends or just girls who didn;t want them and say that they are scammers.

These cases do exist, however their percentage is probably marginal, compared to the rest.

If one sent money and can show WU papers, that doesn;t prove that the person who got that money is a scammer.

What does it prove then, in cases where, for instance, money was requested for visas, travel tickets, letter translations, etc. and the girl suddenly disappeared after cashing it ?

[miranda]

Yulia, you're either naive or confused. The  MAIN reason is that those pictures were attached as a lure to emails by girls who subsequently asked for money under various pretenses.

If I'd steal your pic and say that you are something you are not, you probably won;t be so happy, right? How can you be sure that they pics were not stollen somewhere? You can prove that only if you said that person in real life and you have at least two witness. If not, your words will be only words. And who knows why people posted those pics there. 

So you are the only smart girl around, and the rest are ignorant fools ?

Could you show me where did I say so? If you could not, you lie or try to show me as a liar.

gives us YOUR picture, we'll report you to an anti-scam site, and then you can make a LOT of money by suing them. Deal ?

Ha ha! How funny! 

Are you really thinking I am so stupid? What of you will cut the head and put with some porn pic and post on some porn-site? My privacy is my privacy. And I am not going to roov anything. I know my rught.

These cases do exist, however their percentage is probably marginal, compared to the rest.

If so, they discredited all those real scam reports because now you can not be sure what is really truth. You never know the truth here, in internet. Only in the real life. The better woulod be to give a chance for "scammers" to tell their story. I understand that it is not possible. But I know too many wonen who finished in the black-list without any reason. So I don;t think that it is a good idea to post pics. Noone can post a pictures without permission. We have laws and have to live with laws, right? If one were scammed. he has to go to the police, to write to Interpol or to Russian police departament. It works. But no one has a right to post somebody else's pictures in internet!

What does it prove then, in cases where, for instance, money was requested for visas, travel tickets, letter translations, etc. and the girl suddenly disappeared after cashing it ?

Yes, good question. And I don't have an answer yet.
Don;t send money! Send e-tickets. SHe will not be able to charge it back and get money. Ask the Embassy how much visa costs and write here this information. it is possible to make a visa without any agency. And a visa costs 100$ only.
Send her a link to online-translator so she can translate the letters. But better do not correspond with a person who doesn;t even can talk to you because she doesn't speak english!  How will you fall for her if you don;t understand her? If only you are not after a young body only... 

[Kvinna]

Yulia, you're either naive or confused.

   She is not naive, she knows a lot about scam, I am sure, merely she is interested to market the book, so the longer we will keep discussing this issue, the better for sale

[Bruno]

  She is not naive, ...

She is naive... she use the word "sue" and his derivate a lot of time... if she is really Russian, i think that she look too much at soap opera...

Yes, private live is a right... only when you respect your own duties... how much criminal have a picture of them on the internet ? And from what i remember, scammer are not angels... in several country, they are considered like criminals...

Since you say to be student in Europa... do you know that some country allow non-state organisation to take picture of men visiting hooker and publish them... so country have know a large drop of the prostitution...

And in your own country, the only type of picture who can lead to problem are these from secret military installation...

In my own country, the gouverment is discuting about making public database of pedophile... maybe these will sue the gov ?

And what about all the American who seek a foreign bride and need to reveal private information to agency owner due to the IMBRA... maybe they can sue the president who have sign these law...

Private life is something who exist no where... you use the internet, you use bank card, you use fidelity card from shop, etc... all this allow other people to know more about your own private life...

[miranda]

if she is really Russian, i think that she look too much at soap opera...

Of course, if somebody is russian, she loves soapoperas. How logic!
Bruno, you don;t know about me much so don;t make guesses, ok? Talk about yourself, not about me. I never watch soap-operas.

[miranda]

Bruno, no one can post pics without permission. Criminal database is not a forum or antiscam-site! WAY big difference! They can post criminals because they know they are criminals. But how the hell a forum or antiscam-site can be sure about people they never seen? What if some people post others for fun? Are they authomaticly are scammers? All of those girls? Are you sure? 
If I GAVE you my photo TO POST IT HERE, it means I gave you a permission to do so. If I didn't give you one, you have no right to post it anywhere and could get you prosecuted. If you were an official agency that has a right to reveal personal information, it's one thing. But a forum is NO official legislature or agency to do so. That's why all anti-scam sites and forums are breaking a law by posting personal photos without permission. I posted here a part from that book and it was deleted because the "copyright" law. Why wouldn't you delete personal photos? They are personal property of people who may not be any scammer. They can be simply a girlfriend or a classmate of a scammer who used her photo in his email and posed as her. By posting that girl photo you risk to be sued if she found you did it. It's that simple. Prove me wrong.

[miranda]

  She is not naive, she knows a lot about scam, I am sure, merely she is interested to market the book, so the longer we will keep discussing this issue, the better for sale

Kvinna, relax! I forgot about that book but you didn't, huh? You are not too happy woman I see. PMS?

[Admin]

Bruno, no one can post pics without permission. Criminal database is not a forum or antiscam-site! WAY big difference! They can post criminals because they know they are criminals. But how the hell a forum or antiscam-site can be sure about people they never seen? What if some people post others for fun? Are they authomaticly are scammers? All of those girls? Are you sure? 
If I GAVE you my photo TO POST IT HERE, it means I gave you a permission to do so. If I didn't give you one, you have no right to post it anywhere and could get you prosecuted. If you were an official agency that has a right to reveal personal information, it's one thing. But a forum is NO official legislature or agency to do so. That's why all anti-scam sites and forums are breaking a law by posting personal photos without permission. I posted here a part from that book and it was deleted because the "copyright" law. Why wouldn't you delete personal photos? They are personal property of people who may not be any scammer. They can be simply a girlfriend or a classmate of a scammer who used her photo in his email and posed as her. By posting that girl photo you risk to be sued if she found you did it. It's that simple. Prove me wrong.

Miranda,

I am not an attorney. I presume you are NOT an attorney - are you? But I believe you are only partially-correct about the photos.

For example, do you think Paris Hilton or Britney Spears - or any of hundreds of other celebrities have given their permission for their photos to be published? Britney even had VERY sensitive photos taken recently - and published on the internet - and I understand those are perfectly legal.

There are some interesting sites on the internet which describe what is, and what is NOT, allowed to be posted on the internet - and I think you are incorrect in your assertion about posting personal photos without permission. But then again, I would need to know exactly what your definition of "personal photos" is - and there are other factors which bear on the issue.

I also know that if someone COPIES the photo from one site and posts it elsewhere - that is, most probably, a violation of the original site's copyright (assuming they assert those rights).

You see - it is (in my opinion), not clearly as black-and-white as you suggest.

- Dan