Estonia

[START2]

LoL,,, that will be my defense when I face off with Saint Peter at the Pearly Gates,,, "but, Sir,, I know I've made mistakes, but I never ever set out to intentionally screw anybody.  I was never a used car salesman."

That ought to get me through the doors... Don'cha think?

 jb,
 only if you confess and have asked for forgiveness. but maybe you've never sinned? if that's the case, then YOU have nothing to worry about. Maybe now that you're married and  made your wife an honest woman as they say, your past is wiped clean. Do you suppose all the married men here waited until the I Do's before there was intimacy? If so then I will have to admit to being this forums only resident sinner and you will surely be holier than thou.

[jb]

Start2

I'll admit to having made some grievous errors in my life.  However, I don't believe having intimacy with a woman before marriage is a sin. I've read the Commandments carefully and it does speak about adultry, which is another matter.  As far as I know I haven't broken that rule yet.

But thanks for looking after the wellness of my soul. 

[START2]

One other thing jb. I have no desire to joust with you. You are by far superior. My telling DKMM, yes boy go, but don't have to much of a good time would sound quite ludicrous. He has every right to explore a possible relationship with this girl. If nothing comes of it then he will have an adventure to remember. Do you think it possible to do that without sex? Maybe in Texas no. To think otherwise assumes to many scenarios.

[jb]

I have no desire to joust with you. You are by far superior.

I think you'd have to search far and wide to find a place where I claimed to be superior about anything.  If anything, you'd prolly find me less superior to anything if we ever met in person.

If nothing comes of it then he will have an adventure to remember.

Maybe so.  Frankly I doubt it will come to that.  My guess is that a week or 10 days on an Caribbean Island resort with a very beautiful girl who does not relish his touch will be enough to sour those fantasy ideals.  Regardless of all other justifications, I still think it's a waste of valuable time and resources.  Time and money better spent in pursuit of a woman who is more into the notion of marriage and relocation.

But it isn't my call, is it?

Do you think it possible to do that without sex? Maybe in Texas no.

Now where did that come from?  We still like sex in Texas.  We still believe in lasting relationships in Texas.  I still believe (I can't speak for all Texans) the best way to sort out feelings about a potential lover,,, is to be intimate with that lover.  And lots of it.  How else does one get close to another person on that level of intimacy that's gives you a clue about the really important things in life? 

Maybe I didn't understand the question????  Not feeling very superior at the moment.

[Gator]

Leslie,
Why do you suggest that DKMM return her money?  He would still travel to the Caribbean because his trip is prepaid, no refunds.  He would take one of his locals and have a naughty thrice a day, yet he would have little interest in anything else.  Which is a better choice – a very special woman who is slowly warming to him or someone with no potential?

DKMM has admitted his misgivings about the trip.  I think the best advice is that which would give DKMM a higher chance of success rather than remind him about his spilt milk.  It is quite possible that nothing will happen, but give the bloke a fair go.  Besides, my older son is his age and I know directed encouragement is helpful when facing a challenge.

To me it sounds as if DKMM is approaching his J as he would an American woman.  He has to win her heart and she his.  Great!  She represents a challenge, and I personally think that is the best category of woman to pursue – a woman who has to love you before she will forgo her country and live far from her family.  During a jaded period I admit to dating a couple of desperate women.  They would have been easy, yet I found the experience empty, pitiful and absurd - not positive experiences.  Never again.

Times are changing.  Russian companies are buying American steel companies, and the better women are challenges because they have choices in the FSU. 

With a challenging woman comes a possibly great reward as well as a relatively high risk of failure.  Of course!  The key is whether the man is willing to accept the consequences of failure and still be satisfied that he went to bat. DKMM seems to be such a man.
 
Leslie, you spit out advice about finding a wife in a straightforward process within a compressed timeframe.  Your advice is appropriate for men who have limited time and money.  It functions very well with women who have already committed to leave and who are just looking for a “likable” man.  Such women are not challenges.

To me, this endeavor is about finding enduring love, and such does not follow a linear, 1-2-3 process.  I do what makes me, and those I am with, happy.   It is not a continuing pursuit of pleasure as your name calling states.  If love develops, wonderful!  If not, I see no reason to marry.

[Son of Clyde]

I sat down and read 90% of DKMM's trip reports.
It sounds like real life to me only he went 3,000 miles on a first date that was less than perfect. Over time he saw J as less than perfect, even immature. DKMM, she is only 21 and most women are not so mature until they have married and had children. This girl has no responsibility and seems to have wealthy parents to support her. So I see it pretty much as a failed first trip report but not a total waste of time. Maybe now you can start writing to many women from 19 to 28 and maybe find someone in her mid to late 20's who is on her own and can survive on her own. Thanks for sharing this less than perfect experience and I hope the next time you will be prepared to meet more than one lady. Sorry Gator I was ready to send my post and saw one was posted in between. I hope the continuity is not lost by my thoughts.

[START2]

jb,
  It's true. You didn't understand the question because I didn't text it correct. It was not a shot.
  I believe that in my first post all I was trying to say was, at the moment I read about DK's trip, it took me back in time. A younger time when life was different for me. I enjoyed those years. I would have never listened to a bunch of old codgers advice on how to have a little fun. Come to think of it, I'd have never asked asked for their ideas about it.
  For DK, I think there's nothing wrong with a little side trip. It isn't a waste of time or resources. Hell, he's 28 with lots of time and $$. It doesn't make his search for a real relationship less important. Who knows, if I had known about Ukr/Ru women and their obvious advantages over AW, I might have been visiting earlier than I did. My first visit was to visit friends I'd met in Alaska. After that first time I must have reverted back to days gone by. This summer I looked in my passport and saw 8 entrance stamps. That was in a 3 1/2 year period. I couldn't get enough. Woops, this ain't about me.
   Dk, as stated before. Go have a good time. My oldest son is 22. If he told me about this planned trip, right or wrong, I'd tell him the same. Adding of course, BE CAREFULL!!
  You guys with older children. Sons of course. If they came to you and asked or told you what they were going to do, what would you tell them? Those with daughters I'm sure would lock them in a chastity belt.  
  

[jb]

Which is a better choice – a very special woman who is slowly warming to him or someone with no potential?

Forgive me, Gator, but you are assuming facts not in evidence.  So far this woman/girl hasn't shown much interest in taking things to the next level.  It's kinda a pig 'n a poke thing at this point.

I'm just not into rah-rah cheer leading a guy into thinking something is better than it appears to be.  Better to be prepared for the worst outcome than to pin one's hopes on something that's not likely to ever be.

Just my 2 cents.

[Gator]

JB,

I agree mostly with your first paragraph.  Yet, I sense that the glacier is melting.  Who knows for sure?  DKMM's job is to take measurements of the melt rate and decide if it is worth the effort. 

Your second paragraph is you, and many successful people are wired that way.  I am not.  I readily admit that my optimism has blinded me at times, but not many.

DKMM has now received advice from two perspectives.  And that is the purpose of this Board.

[IAmZon]

Leslie -  Have not read many of your posts ... but it seems that if one was to  insert coal in your arse, it would produce diamonds in a short time. 

And the reason I offer a comment is to echo what Gator/Phil/Buck says:  If one is looking for "OK" than a method of 1,2,3 works.  I, like Gator/Phil/Buck am looking for the "Fantastic".  And this curiosity is but an element of that larger pursuit.

DKMM ... you can find "OK" in your own back yard.  "OK" sucks! Swing for the fence, kid!   You have all the time in the world .... and it is the journey that is the reward ... have FUN:)

[Leslie]

Well Phil,

I did not want an argument with you but when you make assertions about me which have no foundation in fact I will get NYC polite and set you straight.

You are not seeking married life.  You are an old goat (your own words) who has retired after selling a business.  It would be a terrible idea for you to marry and have children.  After all  the best you could hope for is your younger wife pushes  your wheel chair into your child’ high school graduation.  You may well be tucked up in your cemetery plot by then…

What was the age difference with your last girlfriend?  Pushing 30 years if my memory serves me correct.  You are a smart guy.  You KNOW this type of relationship has no long term future.  Two or three years of having fun then move on.  The wheels come off relationships like this if you try to make more of them.  Of course you claim to be searching for “the one” but you will be pushing your walking frame up the hall of a geriatric hospital before that happens !

You are a generous guy.  To my recollection you bought your girlfriend a car,  paid for lengthy first class vacations in south east Asia. Put her on the payroll.  Both of you had fun. Many good looking FSU women spend a period as the mistress to an older guy.  You understand this is normal in FSU culture.  Indeed if a rich middle aged guy has not got a young mistress the gossip about him being “Gomik” will be unstoppable!  You are playing this same field.

The difference is a Russian guy KNOWS he is paying for the relationship. You con yourself and the other members of this board that you are not! 

The only lasting connection between you and a good looking Russian woman who is half your age is the money you are spending.  Thinking otherwise is akin to believing there are fairies living at the bottom of your garden…

Do your adult children know and approve of your activities?  How about the smart set at your country club.  You might wonder what they say behind your back.  Well I have just said it to your face…

[Bruce]

Rivardco - All I know is that Leslie is almost always spot on with his comments.  The only diamonds he spews are the words of wisdom he chooses to write.  If I were you I would take heed!

Forget about this particular thread, but it pains me to see tried, true and current advice given to newbies on multiple threads, only to see the newbies turn their back on that advice only to pick and choose the worst advice given.  If one guy meets, marries and has a successful marriage on a WOVO all of you want to write letters for months in the hopes of repeating the success of the WOVO when the majority of the happily married guys either were on ground in the FSU for a lengthy period of time and met their wives through day to day activities or went over meeting many women on one or multiple trips, painstakingly narrowing which women they like and over a period of time finding the one. 

Advice from playboys, philanderers and dirty old men seems to be the pools of wisdom the majority of the current newbies on this board hang their hats on.  Go ahead, give it a try.  Chances are we will never get to hear your trip reports because you'll be too embarassed.  At least DKNM has the guts to tell it like it is.  I hope he also has the guts to send the girl in the FSU her money back and take a local on his caribbean vacation if he can not get out of it totally.  All he will be doing is wasting his time and the girls time.  Now, some of you say, oh to be young and stupid again............thats why the guy is on the board.  He is smart enough to ask for recommendations of guys who have been there and done that.  If his goal is to  find a potential wife, establish a serious relationship, get the girl back to the USA and be happily married DKNM needs to make decisions that have the highest probability of achieving his goals.  To waste ones time on low probability decisions will achieve success rarely.  Never the less, its his life and as long as he is enjoying it, more power to him!

[Mir]

The strength of women comes from the fact that psychology cannot explain them. Men can be analyzed, women merely adored (Oscar Wild)

[Gator]

Hi Leslie (having a bad week?),

Twice you have attacked me personally in this thread rather than the advice I give.  This is not proper debating style.  Why did you do this?  Was it because you saw nothing positive about DKMM’s situation while I saw a half-full glass?   Was your personal attack intended to discredit me?  It came late because earlier I had already disclosed that I am not married after 4 years with different RW.

JB, who has a reputation for not holding punches, took exception to my advice and did it very gentlemanly and did it with merit and foundation.  It seems that a south Texan has shown much more class and analytical skill than an Englishman.  The gracious English style has certainly deteriorated over the past few decades.  I am much more impressed by the gentlemanly behavior of our Aussie members who evidently could teach the English a few lessons.

You stated that your reason for attacking me is that I made unfounded assertions about you.  Leslie, I called you “wise and experienced” on Dec 11 at 11:07.  My apology - I did not realize that you are not a wise man.  I also bragged about you when explaining to DKMM how you too did not throw money around in Ukraine when hunting for a bride.  Was I wrong?

Your words sound so much like a bitter, angry, rotten babushka that you probably retain water.  Hopefully this is just a temporary condition, because you have excellent experience to share.

You can insult me as much as you like.  Knock yourself out.  Insults do not bother me – I am a self-deprecating kind of guy.  In fact, I appreciate clever sarcasm.  You, Leslie, were not clever.  Worse, you were malicious and slanderous.  Not just in the above post but everything you wrote in this thread, starting with calling DKMM a sex tourist. 

I am happy that you found a wife and now have a beautiful baby.  It would seem, however, that this would make you a happy man who would have a positive outlook.

While you are welcome to insult me, I think it is despicable to suggest that my ex-fiancée was a mistress.  You do not know her, and again you jump to conclusions based on my reports of the past.  A few points in response to your comments and questions:

1.  In my 3+ years with her, she never once said anything bad about anyone.  To me that is one sign of a good woman.  How many people are like that – anyone that you know?   She certainly has more class and character than you have exhibited in your writings.  I was and am still proud of her. 
 

2.  Is it her fault that I am an optimistic and generous man?  I bought her a Lada (BFD at $6500) after 15 months of an exclusive relationship.  I did other things not on your list.   Why?  I wanted her to have a car and a better life – not live in near poverty while I enjoy a grand life.  I am that kind of person.  I think a number of RW would call you a “greedy” man, and “greedy” people do not like generous people for obvious reasons.

3.   Yes, our age difference was a problem.  I have never disputed that fact.  I also admit that I may have wasted three years of her life because she wants to get married and move to a country where she can realize her true merit as a businesswoman while balancing a relationship with a husband (she is more AW than RW).  However, she does not feel that the time with me was a waste and has volunteered such to me.

4.    She has found a Euro man, 6 years older, good looking (we share photos), with a big income.  He has asked her to marry him.  She so far has hesitated, waiting for me.  This made me feel uneasy.  I reported this in a recent, long thread and I revealed all about my age and the like.  Can I assume that you do not read most threads and perhaps you missed it?

5.   My younger son has spent over a week with her in Moscow plus the two months when she was in the USA.  They get along fine, and her two children adore him.  His comment to his mother, “If these three do not become part of my family, I will be greatly disappointed."

6.   The country club set mostly leered at her and shook their head at me.  But they know I am one of the last of the world’s great adventurers.  My younger friends asked if she had a sister. 

So what do my faults have to do with DKMM and his upcoming trip?  Very little.  DKMM came to the board to discuss his situation.  He received advice from several people.  Some of it was conflicting.  This is good!  DKMM can now sort through all of it, digest it and live his life as he decides.  He certainly seems competent beyond his years. 

And by the way, I think many of the other younger men are also capable of considering diverse opinions and making a reasonable decision. 

In closing, I have one other comment.  You wrote that if a man wants to date for fun, follow the advice of the “seasoned hedonist” Gator.  I chose to ignore the hedonist part because it is not a nice word suggesting I am Albert's twin.  How about the fun part?  Please tell me what is wrong with dating for fun?  Every relationship with every woman I ever knew started out as dating for fun.  If we had fun, the relationship continued, and sometimes the relationship grew into something serious.  When the fun stopped, the relationship stopped.  I can understand that you do not know how to have fun, and would probably even frown upon having fun, considering it a distraction from a man’s mission to choose the best puppy and put a collar around her as soon as possible.  In my opinion, if it is unreasonable to have fun with a RW and become friends before deciding about marriage, then this endeavor is indeed warped.

As far as you and me, you seem to have had a hardon about me for four years because I interrupted your trip report with rookie comments.  I was learning at the time.  You have had little to say to me, and all of it has been negative, as if you consider me a personal threat.  Over 4 years I have never said anything negative about you until this moment.  Tomorrow I will probably regret it    but you should not have insulted a woman who still means a lot to me. 

Have a good day.

[Gator]

Bruce wrote,
 

If his goal is to  find a potential wife, establish a serious relationship, get the girl back to the USA and be happily married...

I think these are everyone's goals.  The first three can be done in a 1,2, 3 step.  The "happily married" part is an entirely different matter. And one man's definition will differ from another man's.  Some men want a friend, some enjoy an intellectual connection and challenge, and others want a submissive sex slave and frugal housekeeper.   

...DKMM needs to make decisions that have the highest probability of achieving his goals.  To waste ones time on low probability decisions will achieve success rarely. 

In business management one needs to evaluate the risk:reward ratio.  Many men chasing RW indeed go for the big reward in a high risk situation (e. g., become engaged in one week, choose a woman out of his league in looks and age and intelligence).  The difference is that successful businessmen understand that failure is a possibility and they are willing to accept the consequences of failure and move on.  Businessmen also endeavor to control events rather than be controlled by them. 

The highest probable success would be to go after desperation: a village girl of average looks and with young babies.  Ah, the reward is too little.  So let us increase the potential reward, and with that comes more risk.  And some men go balls out!  Some people are risk takers, some are risk averse.  People are different, and each will approach this differently, end up with a different woman, and live life differently.

[Mir]

Aha Gator, so you also disrupted someone’s TR a few years ago? 
The only difference was that you disrupted a genuine TR from a real person and not a make believe TR posted by an impostor calling himself : The Anonymous One. 

[tim 360]

Rivkardo,  It is not very nice nor wise for you to bait Leslie like that.  He is a top-notch class act and does know what he speaks of; as you most certainly do not.  Play nice,  Cheers, tim360

[groovlstk]

Aha Gator, so you also disrupted someone’s TR a few years ago? 
The only difference was that you disrupted a genuine TR from a real person and not a make believe TR posted by an impostor calling himself : The Anonymous One. 

Mir, you look like my high school math teacher so I'll be nice. I know AO and his adventures are genuine. If you take issue with his methods or ideas, feel free to challenge him. But his TRs are not manufactured, they are based upon real experiences.

Talk about disrupting TRs...

[tim 360]

Gator/Phil/Bucky,  Instead of hijacking other posters threads (trip reports) maybe start some of your own.  You sure have alot to say and type and this would keep your opinions more comprehensive and on-point.  Cheerio, tim360

[DKMM]

Hello again,

What fun, this short trip of mine seems to have generated more action on this forum than it did in real life.  

I admit to being hasty - and not thinking the whole thing through - when I committed my still limited time & resources to pursuing a woman that I have a low chance of long term success with.  I made a decision two months ago to put off another trip to Russia by instead going to the Carib with this girl... that may have not been the best idea looking back on it now because my goal is to find a wife, not just seek thrills.  

The reality is this, I leave in 13 days on a trip that I already have set aside and paid for.  I cannot take another trip until late April regardless of whether I go to the Carib or not (guess my line of work).  And its too late to try and make plans to visit Russia in less than 2 weeks.  So I'm going for certain.  Now to keep J from going I'd have to give her money back, spend even more money to take a local , and forever lose my current best friend over there.  That would be stupid... her not going is simply not an option.

I am going to follow Gator's advice.  Not because its filled with best case scenarios but because its the best (and only) path to success with J.  Despite the many shortcomings, I think there may be a chance.  Her behavior does make sense as she is a young and nervous girl.  She told me the reason she does not have boyfriends (or even want one) is because of "nerves".  The only reason she would ever have such a relationship would be if she knew it was going to lead to marriage.  Thus, she only wants a "friend".  

As far as courage to emigrate, she already proved that by moving to Moscow alone away from her family.  She told me she does not want to stay there and honestly does not know where to settle down.  She's been to America 3 times and does like it here.  We think a lot alike when it comes to values, goals and our view of the world.

Ultimately, the time to walk away would after this upcoming trip, if it is a flop, not before it.  I'm sure that it will be obvious whether to devote time & resources into her after 10 days together.  She is very proactive in follow up conversations since I got back and everything in her mind seems to be fine, like in Michelangelo's Turkish Delight trip.  And I've always been a high risk/high reward person, that's how I achieved some success investing.

Bruce, its not like I'm K-1'ing the girl, we should be able to have fun if nothing else can come out of it.  The only reason I would cancel it and send her money back was if I was not interested in her, and she was in me, as that would be unethical.  I don't think its a waste of my time and she certainly does not view it that way.  But you are right, I'm on here because I don't have anyone in my real life that understands what I'm going through so I seek advice from here.  And even though I'm not doing what you and Leslie suggest don't think I'm ignoring what you are saying either.

I'm going to try very hard to get my TR out in progress.  I'll probably have dead time as we try to merge our time zone differences...

[Bruce]

DKMM - more power to you and best of luck.  "A person who has not failed has done nothing." 

[Gator]

Tim,

Who is hijacking the thread?  Who is doing the baiting?  Who turned a debate about DKMM’s travel choices into a personal attack, again and again?  Using words such as sex tourist, hedonist, mistress, etc. I ignored it until he insulted a woman who is one of my true friends. 

This is not proper.  It is not the behavior I expect from someone whom I too have respected for four years. That person asked me questions and I simply answered, albeit with a lot of wind.  End of story.   

DKMM has made his final decision.  He will likely and hopefully start a new thread about his forthcoming trip. So it is best that we all move on to other threads as this one is concluded. 

I think it best that we all wish DKMM a good trip. Bruce disagreed with DKMM's approach, and Bruce is frequently frustrated by giving advice to Newbies only to be ignored and later read about a train wreck.  Yet Bruce is a gentleman and is the first to wish DKMM the best of luck (and forgive me Bruce about my New York comment which was intended as humor).

I find DKMM's story very interesting, something to enliven this place.  We may very well discover that Bruce's assessment was correct. 

In closing, Rivardo’s comment about being tight assed was hilarious.  It is good to have a new crowd willing to express an opposing opinion, not with malicious name calling but with wit. 

[BillyB]

DKMM,

I'll be waiting to read your trip report. Just remember, if there is too much resistance from this woman, move on. There are plenty of women out there who'd accept you  with open arms and you'll be missing out if you waste too much time on a lost cause. After this trip, if she just wants to remain "Just friends", then don't hesitate to date other women.

[tim 360]

Gator,  I too think DKMM should have a good time...he is afterall locked into it and I'm confident he will make the most of his trip.  It is his best option now.  From what he wrote the young girl could be a handful,  again HE should have a better idea than we of just what he is getting himself into.  All we know is through his prism,  none of us know the girl at all.  Hopefully he will have a good time.

I am all for intelligent divergent views so no problem.  It was the long windedness.  Or to use an old writers quote,  "My apology for the long letter,  if I had more time it would be shorter."  Ciao, tim360

ps:  I did not mention that you baited anyone.  That was for another.

[IAmZon]

It was I ... I am the baiter.  You are right, I do not know the man "Lesley".   Evidentally, he has a history of well informed participation.  I only judged from what I read here (which clearly does not fit the former defintion).  Perhaps I judged too quickly; perhaps I offered too sharp of barb.

I intended only to lighten the mood. 

These discussions - at times - take on a greater sense of importance than perhaps they, objectively, should.  I certainly did not intend to cause spite. 

And you are ABSOLUTELY correct that I am new, never been to FSU, and have asked more than my share of dumb questions.  (I think I am over that now).

However, the central issue here is men and women, is it not?  Of course there is the very unique aspect of FSU women; with all the peculiar generalites and specific logistical requirements ... but that is just "stuff".  Any good boy scout can figure that out with time.

On the central issue, I am NO newbie. Nor am I challenged in this regard. I enter the discussions with far less handicaps, compulsions, social disfunctions, unrealistic expectations, and unfulfilled desires that often characterize men interested in this pursuit.  I try to be agreeable and well mannered - even helpful, if I can be.

So for all that which I admittedly am not ... please note that which I am.