Childish Bickering

[Admin]

So am I saying I think jb should be banned or jb should leave permanently.  No, not at all.  I think jb knows his stuff and has a lot to add.  He has the ability to make posts that add insight and are right on target.  I think people would get his point more if he spent less time inserting needless insults against someone in them.   My feelings about jb are that he is a well meaning individual who presents his information and help in the wrong way.  I think it would be fair to say that Jinx, PG and I have been the three most often on the receiving end of jb's tirades.  I don't take it personally.  I let it go in one ear and out the other.  I know it is jb and that he means well.  I try to keep my posts civil, positive and helpful even when jb is on a roll.

It has been stated many, many times - but the answer lies in addressing the ISSUES in a posted message - NOT the person who posted it.

I think jb and KenC are probably our two best resources when it comes to living with a RW.   I think they need to realize too that it is not the only thing that gets discussed on RWD.   jb might be great on some aspects but he would admit himself that he has no knowledge of WOVO vs WMVM.   There are a lot of people on RWD with experiences he does not have.  A lot of the guys who are making good posts like Kuna, Gator and I/O may not have the experience in some areas that jb does but their posts are great.  They may have things to learn yet but it has been said the best way to learn something is to teach it so when they make posts helping someone with less knowledge than they have as long as the information they present is good the fact that they may not have experience it first hand is not relevant.   Good information is good information whoever it comes from.  Sorta like if I see someone ask about Confidential Connections and say they should avoid them.  I have never used CC and never been on their website.  I know they are bad from RWD and helping a newbie avoid them is a good thing.  It is not important that I have no first hand knowledge of them.  It is still good information.

I have a couple of comments about this:

* Yes, jb and KenC are terrific resources. It is important to recognize that a person's experiences are subject to obsolescence. For example, I wrote a very descriptive piece to help guys circumnavigate the entry procedures at Odesa and Kyiv airports back when you were required to have a visa and mandatory health insurance had to be purchased at time of entry. That process, along with the OVIR/VVIR process was complicated and the detailed write-up helped save guys tons of time and aggravation. That information is now relegated to the dustbin of history as it is no longer valid. Same with my experience of making the slog from Kremenchug to Kyiv to Warsaw for the K-1 interview - no longer valid.

Much of what Ken and jb (and numerous others) have to share is valuable because it offers rich context and principles and values to be considered. Some of what the old-timers experienced is NOT valid any longer and the board needs a constant flow of members in ALL phases of the experience.

We need a fresh flow of inputs and experiences from all members - not only a few.

* Insofar as addressing issues without first-hand experience - that is a tough one. By its nature, this is a discussion forum and we are going to be subject to opinions and innuendo which have little (or nothing) to do with facts. Sometimes, and it seems more true with gossipy negative innuendo, rumors take on a life of their own and become community 'fact' even though if they were closely-inspected objectively, the truth may not support the rumor-mill. I think it is important to qualify comments which relay information picked-up through the rumor-mill. Provide whatever substantive material is available - qualify the information - and provide enough to allow the reader to conduct their own investigation and draw their own conclusions.

Just FWIW

- Dan

[KenC]

I find it funny that this thread seems to be hyperfocused on jb.  There are many participants to the latest flurry of childish bickering besides jb, me included.  I think William said it best:
"Some of you who have felt the JB lash are certainly not any better (although you try to claim the high ground) because you keep throwing barbs at him or making posts that are decidedly lacking in depth or experience or downright childish. Some of the posts I see are completely anal and are misleading. While you have the right to speak your piece, your words also show what you are made of and also your biases. I have biases as well. . . ."

In the recent flamefest in Ada's section there were multiple offenders of childlike bickering:Turbo, Photo, me and of course Jinx had to add his words of wisdom although almost after the fact.  We all have our "hot buttons" that set us off.  Mine is when members dole out advice on subjects they have no first hand knowledge of.  They just seem to overstep their own limits and to make matters worse, they argue to justify their ignorant opinions.  Now as some of the previous posts have chosen to put jb up for inspection let's look at the rest of the players.

Turbo-By far the most gentlemanly man of the group only gets involved with such volital topics to aide the weaker side whether he agrees or not.  He is sympathetic to the guy getting whacked around, in this case Photo (again).  He is a true humanitarian but in fact, by trying to balance the fight, prolongs the fight.

Photo-Great guy personally and has a most romantic way at looking at things.  Too romantic in my mind.  His romantic leanings lead to some very off track thinking and has even led him to revise his own history.  Talk about rainbows and pink glasses!  But as I said earlier, his tendency to dole out misinformation on subjects he has no knowledge of, drives me crazy and I will hammer him every time he dose it.

Jinx- is so blinded by his hatered for jb that he cannot think straight.  I think he searches out jb's post just to aggravate him.  It is clear that his goal is to make jb's life here as miserable as possible. (and it is getting very old)

Me- I am just an arsehole that speaks his mind.

I have no doubts that some childlike bickering will now ensue.  have a good day.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Not meaning this to be negative but I think some people should repeat to themselves "I will attack the issues and not the person" about 10 times before they log on to RWD.

Good point about the obsolescence.   I am sure even jb and KenC's thoughts about the issues they faced in the early days with their new wife are starting to fade away a bit as a distant memory (I am not saying this in a critical way) and may have less relevance than SOC's or Voyagers who have just gone through it.  Again everyone is different.  I can tell already that I will be facing totally different issues with VWRW than I did with Luda.

As far as the newbies, I think a lot of the value is in their attitude.  If they come here with pre-conceived ideas that may be flawed but are open to suggestions and comments then their expressing their opinions will lead to meaningful communications that will benefit all.  If they come here with pre-conceived ideas and they are going to do it their way and know everything and no one is going to tell them anything and they are going to convince the world that they are right, yes, it they are going to do more harm than good.  I see good info being posted by lots of guys who have yet to make their first trip.

I have said what I want to about this topic for now.  This is a side note to explain my comment about dealing with different issues with Luda and VWRW.   I have a feeling someone would pick up on that anyway and I apologize for going off topic.  With Luda, homesickness was a zero in anything it was a non issue.   She did not miss home or even think about it.  The biggest issue I dealt with was her confusion about where she wanted her life to go.  With VWRW I expect issues about where she wants her life to go to be a non issue and a zero in our relationship and I expect the biggest issue that I will have to be homesickness.  My job will be to make her happy enough and to let her stay in touch enough that it stays at a tolerable level.  Sorry for going off topic.

[Son of Clyde]

If you guys don't stop this childish bickering I'm gonna hold my breath until I turn blue.

[William3rd]

OH YEAH, CAMEL BOY- I can hold my breath longer than you can, Nyah nyah. . . .

Nice call, Ken. . . . although I dont find you to be an arshole. I dont find JB to be one, either. Arseholes can be put on ignore. . . . I have 3 there and a couple that I would but I may want to respond to their more inane posts some day.

Some things change but a lot of things do not. Human nature does not. . . . Countries rise and fall. . . .

If someone looks back at this in ten years, what will they see?

Too philosphical this early on Saturday. . . . .

Got a family law case to see this weekend- foreign bride- I get the USC husband. . . . naturally, her english will drop by 90% by the time we get to court to enhance her spousal support request. . . .


Off topic I know-but. . . . . reality beckons.

[Turboguy]

KenC,

To be honest that was probably the most accurate and complete analysis that I have seen on RWD.   I think you are right on all accounts except perhaps for your self description.

My reason for focusing on jb was primarily because while he was gone there was zero bickering on RWD.  

I don't bear any bad feelings for jb.  I feel as you do that Jinx and PG do.  I can understand a lot of the dynamics that are going on.  with some of the bickering between jb and Jinx and PG the bickering is not because jb said something to cause it in that thread.  It is just because he is there and pent up hostilities are coming out.  Some of the others need to "let it go"  I can agree with that.  

On one side if jb posts something on Sunday and gets criticized for something he said a year ago that is not jb's problem on that Sunday, it is the problem of whoever criticized him.  You made a good point there.  

All in all I think jb's advice would sway more minds if he dealt with issues and not people and that some of those who have been the victims of jb's posts need to think if they have allowed the bitterness to change them in a way that is not for the best.

PG for instance.  I agree he is a romantic.  That is not bad but yes, sometimes it can cloud our judgement and we make mistakes.  We romantic's think it is a more perfect world than it is.  In his original posts he went through some comments that no one should have had to go through.  They were bad enough that Dan pulled the whole thread.   He showed himself to have some great qualities in the way he dealt with it.   I think he can be proud of that.  Just as he needs to move on past Larisa and find his happiness he must move past the comments made to him and let the bitterness pass out of his system.  I think it would be easier for him to do that if the past was not thrown in his face.  He made mistakes.  He learned.  We all need to move on, PG, jb and everyone.  

Jinx is a very different kind of person from PG.  He had to put up with having everything he said questioned and everything he said called a lie.  He proved he was right and that jb was wrong.  jb is seldom wrong and probably would not admit he was wrong then but he was.   Jinx needs to forget the past too and move on.  

I think it is probably correct that 90% of the bickering comes from something related to jb but yes, jb is not the only guilty one.  I think the calm when jb was gone shows that what I just said is true to a great extent.

There are no solutions.  I think RWD is better with less bickering.  I think RWD is better with jb here but less bickering.  There are no answers.  We just all need to keep in mind that we need to be dealing with issues and not personalities and we need to all use a little self restraint when it comes to the little barbs we insert that do not add to the point we are trying to make but do start another round of bickering.

[KenC]

Not meaning this to be negative but I think some people should repeat to themselves "I will attack the issues and not the person" about 10 times before they log on to RWD.

Good point about the obsolescence.   I am sure even jb and KenC's thoughts about the issues they faced in the early days with their new wife are starting to fade away a bit as a distant memory (I am not saying this in a critical way) and may have less relevance than SOC's or Voyagers who have just gone through it.  Again everyone is different.  I can tell already that I will be facing totally different issues with VWRW than I did with Luda.

I don't think the memory or the relevance of Lena's trials and tribulations in adjusting to America have faded one bit.  I will agree that the landscape and mindset of the RW may have changed though and that there are many new avenues to pursue than there were available when I was involved.  If there is any obsolescence in my experiences it would be in that area.  Even though LTP still operates the same as when I went, but the attitudes of the ladies may have changed.

As far as the newbies, I think a lot of the value is in their attitude.  If they come here with pre-conceived ideas that may be flawed but are open to suggestions and comments then their expressing their opinions will lead to meaningful communications that will benefit all.  If they come here with pre-conceived ideas and they are going to do it their way and know everything and no one is going to tell them anything and they are going to convince the world that they are right, yes, it they are going to do more harm than good.  I see good info being posted by lots of guys who have yet to make their first trip.

I completely agree with you on this.  To take it a bit further though, the flawed thinking goes beyond annoying to intolerable when it is doled out as "advice."
KenC

[KenC]

Turbo,
One slight correction in your last post:

In his original posts he went through some comments that no one should have had to go through.  They were bad enough that Dan pulled the whole thread.

Dan pulled the thread because PG asked him to so that he (PG) could re-write his new an improved trip report, which of course had little similarity to the first.
KenC

[Son of Clyde]

If someone looks back at this in ten years, what will they see?

I think it is very probable that todays so-called clueless guys may be tomorrows success stories.

[Jack]

Turbo, everything jinx said was the truth?  So one has to have a sponsor if they win the green card lottery as jinx said?  I think not Turbo and jinx was proven to be wrong. Their are many individuals who do not require a sponsor. jinx's girl is one who did.

[Admin]

Turbo, everything jinx said was the truth?  So one has to have a sponsor if they win the green card lottery as jinx said?  I think not Turbo and jinx was proven to be wrong. Their are many individuals who do not require a sponsor. jinx's girl is one who did.

Let's let it go. It has been addressed already in previous topics.

- Dan

[I/O]

If there is to be a cure, first the disease must be understood.  The disease of forums such as this is comon, that is, a group of people with vast experience and much enthusiasim for the subject form the basis.

After a period of time, they fall into the pattern of seeing the new comers ask, say, do, run, pontificate the same things over and over again.  Why won't these idiots read what is written and has been written here for weeks, months, years, seems to be the legitimate question the lifers will ask themselves.  They make a few suggestions to the new boys which is nice and then assume they will read for themselves and hopefully learn. 

Forums just don't work that way.  The frustrations of saying the same thing over and over again to new people to a given subject are understandable.  But again, it just doesn't work that way.  People who come to internet forums do so for two reasons, to hear and be heard.  Very few people will sit and passively read for months.  If they do, they are probably the type to buy a book and read it in bed.

If RWD wants a complete book, then the answer is for all past threads to be locked and any new posts to be vetted before posting.  Now how ridiculous is that? Very. Forums like this will continue to evolve and part of that process is the same questions will be asked over and over again.  All need to accept that.  All.  If postings and  responses are based on "Objective comment on the subject, rather than subjective comment on the Object" and thought through a little, the nonsense can be limited.

Newer posters, (At least here, me included) need to understand that the lifers have a bit to offer, a very big bit to offer, but the lifers also must accept that they will, if they want a forum to survive and thrive, have to go through the same old things day after day after day.

One of the big difficulties I have found here, is the different styles and understandings of writings and this is exhasebated by differences in UK and USA English.  They are more different that many realise.  The latest round of nonsense broke out because I failed to get my point accross in a way that all could understand.  Someone missunderstood and reacted and I counter reacted and away it went.  I have much improvement to make in my style of writing before all will understand.  Whether or not I will have the time after this weekend is another question.  I am sure some if not all will be pleased to hear that.

But my final sting on this subject having been a moderator of several forums which is a "Sod of a Job" is this.  No mater what, if a post cant be responded to with a degree of civility and decorum it shouldn't be responded to at all.  Civility and decorum are not snobbishness and have no geographic boundries.

I/O

[William3rd]

Any chance of locking this thread up soon? I have an idea who may get in the last word and I dont think it will be me. . . . . :noidea:

[jinx13]

 No need to lock it up William, some very important things are being said here. If you're worried about my response to Jack, forget about it, it's not worth my time, he can send me another 2000 word PM if he wants, I'm bored with that topic.

 I actually have moved on from that debate awhile back, jb offended me then but I got over it, I don't actively seek out anybody's posts as KenC suggests, I do like everyone else, I read the current topics and comment where I see fit. Maybe Ken only see's my responses to jb, but I post in many different topics and interact with lots of different members here. Jb's posts stand out because they are meant to shock, and I have been gullible enough to let myself be sucked in again and again, but then if I just ignore it, and others ignore it too, than it almost becomes like 'well it must be true if no one questions it'  I am the type person that speaks my mind, and if I see someone posting something I absoultely don't agree with, I will respond. Doesn't matter who it is, could be a newbie, or a vet like jb.

 I think a little of whats going on here is the old guard being a little threatened by the new guys. There have been some recent additions to RWD who have some very good writing skills and have a fair and balanced way of looking at things. I for one appreciate it, I wish I could write so well    I also appreciate the guys who have been here a long time, their experience is invaluable. I just don't like when someone tells me my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not married to a Russian woman yet, I live with a Ukrainian woman, and I do have a few years experience. We all have something to offer here.

 

People who come to internet forums do so for two reasons, to hear and be heard.  Very few people will sit and passively read for months.

 I agree with that statement to a point, but I was one of those that sat passively reading for months. I think I may have posted like 3 times when I was here before the changeover when Spencer was running things. Why didn't I post? I didn't have a whole lot of experience yet, I was here to learn, and to tell the truth I love reading trip reports, especially if they are written well. Since then I have been on quite a few trips myself, and now finally I am in love with a great girl. I have stuff to say now! I have learned a few things lately, and I am the type that does learn from my mistakes, I am trying to be a more 'Civil' member here, I don't want to be drawn into petty arguments.

 I will do my best to repeat this "I will attack the issues and not the person"  sometimes it's real hard to do when it's the same person stirring the pot. I'll give it a shot, and I hope others will make an effort too.  - David

[Turboguy]

I agree with David,  I think some people needed to get a few things off their chest.  I hope the thread is not locked.  If it needs any action move it to "Anything Goes". 

I think it would be an improvement if we can have less bickering. I don't really think anything we say here will have any impact on jb but I hope that maybe some of the others that have been lured in may try to not stir the pot as much.

David, as far as your statement "I think I may have posted like 3 times when I was here before the changeover when Spencer was running things. Why didn't I post? I didn't have a whole lot of experience yet, "   Shhhhh!.  I think you got lost.  That is someplace else.  Dan runs this and has always run it. 

[jinx13]

 Really Turbo?  Where does that name Spencer come from? I know it had something to do with this forum. Well, I know I was a member here, and then something changed, and we had to make new usernames and passwords, am I crazy? Was I on another discussion board before?

[Turboguy]

Yes, that is ok.  Once you start here you forget about any other boards anyway because nothing can compare.   Yes, you must have been on RWG which was owned by Spencer and is now owned by European Connectons. 

[jinx13]

 Ahhhh, it all makes sense now...when that other board changed I must have tried to find it again, and ended up here    I think you're right, this board is better anyway.

[KenC]

I think a little of whats going on here is the old guard being a little threatened by the new guys.

I  got a chuckle out of this the first time you posted it, as it shows how self important you think of you are.  Believe me, Jinx, no one is threatened by you.

I do agree that there has been some great additions to the board recently though.  The Aussie boys are a welcome hoot from downunder And Rivardco has made some of the most intelligent posts I have seen in a long time.  Of course O/I has tons of experience but even the true newbies seem to ask the right questions and grasp the concepts very well.  BTW no one is threatened by their presence either, they are a welcome addition here.  There really is no right or wrong ways to do this, but there are methods that worked and others that didn't.  To each his own.
KenC

[jinx13]

KenC,

 I wasn't talking about myself at all, I was thinking of Kuna, Rivardco, I/O, and others. That kind of insult from you is exactly what we are talking about here Ken, I guess you just don't get it.

 I also didn't say ALL the old guard feels threatened, but jb has made it obvious that he is trying to hold onto something and has made attempts to discredit and attack many, if not all the new and frequent posters. Ken, I haven't seen you do this at all, you seem to have welcomed them like I have.
 
 Since we are getting things off our chest, tell me KenC what is it exactly about me that you seem to despise so much? I know you were upset about my victory dance over jb in that other topic, but really it's been over awhile now. Why do you constantly jump in as far as jb and I are concerned? We are big boys and can handle our own differences in opinion.

 I have never said anything bad about you, and have actually said many times that you give out some great advice. I've tried to keep things light with you, even trying to talk sports, like guys that don't have much in common usually do, I'm not trying to be your adversary, I wish you would just give me a break sometimes, I don't claim to know everything, and I don't think I come off that way. What's the deal? Why the animosity?

[Kuna]

I'm glad we've been able to put some balanced arguments forward on this and I especially appreciated KenC and Turbo's views.

As for CHILDISH bickering...  it's the name calling and personal attacks that I find distasteful and unnecessary.  I think there are several people in here capable of doing that if we chose to, but if we did the value in RWD would evaporate very quickly.

The "old timers" have terrific experience to share, and the words of advice I got when I first joined haven't been forgotten. I can fully understand the frustration when newbies come in here asking "such obvious questions". The criticism of "men that have gone forth and made mistakes" also may be factually correct at times, but is it appropriate to tell someone to "Go cut your throat"?

I think on-line communities mimick real life to some extent.  You can see peoples personalities, there IS a culture that evolves over time and we all have roles to play.  The difference in an on-line community is that you don't risk a smashed nose or a blackened eye if you act like an a$$. In here we rely on good taste and decency, and moderation as a last resort.

I really don't want this is be focused on jb though.  I have great respect for him and until recently I read all of his posts carefully to make sure I wasn't missing "the good stuff" contained within.  I've read the stories of the main men he attacks and I agree with a lot of the stuff he says.  There have clearly been some dumb decisions in the past, I just don't think they need to be raised in every thread and with such voracity.

I want to wish everyone a peaceful and harmonious weekend and remind you that THERE'S ONLY 12 DAYS TO GO!  (This last week or two has just dragged... I must update my blog).

Kuna

[Darth Vader]

Jinx is a very different kind of person from PG.  He had to put up with having everything he said questioned and everything he said called a lie.  He proved he was right and that jb was wrong.  jb is seldom wrong and probably would not admit he was wrong then but he was.  

Turboguy, did you miss all those posts where Jinx initiates arguments and insults other people.  The guy who said there is something sleazy about agency parties, and by implication the girls that attend them...that they are not good girls.  My wife was one of those girls, BTW.

I could name another half dozen attacks by your friend Jinx.  And BTW- he was NOT correct about the sponsorship issue you mention. And he was NOT right suggesting the lottery is a viable way of getting a girl to the US.

So give me JB any day....at least he posts good and accurate information.

And NO, I do not like bickering. That is why I will defend anyone here at RWD who is attacked.

And BTW- correcting inaccurate posts is not bickering.

[jinx13]

 Ohhh my. The man in the black mask is back.  Never said any of that, I welcome anybody to pour through my posts and find it. There's only about 200 or so, wouldn't be hard to do. Just click on my name and you can see every post I ever made here.  Other than that, I'm not getting drawn into this again.

[Darth Vader]

You did say it and it's still there.  And when I called you on it, you refused to apologize to the ladies you insulted.  Check the poll, several men here at RWD did meet their wives at agency parties.

And stop your victory dance. You are still wrong about the lottery being a viable way of bringing your FSU girl into the states...see Jack's post backstream.

Yes, Jinx, you do catch some grief here.  But most of it is deserved, and a reaction to your insults to others.

Black mask, you say? Hey, did you catch my storm troopers in the parade in Pasadena Monday?

Here's a quote from the local paper..  "Just because they wear white doesn't mean they are the good guys."

The world is not black or white.  Truth lies somewhere in between, so let the bickering continue and let the reader decide how to shade it.

[jinx13]

 Darth,

 The grief I catch is from the same guys over and over about the same topic over and over. My girlfriend is here on a visa and green card she got from the lottery (fact) SHE needed sponsorship, it was one of HER provisions needed, but not everyone needs an affadavit of support, I thought Jack and settled that, but here it is again. I NEVER said it was way to get a woman over here as far as marriage or any kind of replacement for a K-1 visa, I went out of my way to make that clear, but here we go again. Where is my victory dance? Because Turbo relayed the facts here again, I'm seen as doing a victory dance?

 Look, lets end this "sleazy" quote once and for all. I said I thought meeting women at tour parties was a somewhat sleazy way to meet. I'M SORRY! I said the wrong words, I didn't mean to offend the women at the parties, and I really apologize for offending your wife. I screwed up, I can admit it, can we PLEASE drop it?

 Darth, i'm making a real effort to stop the bickering, bringing up things from the past isn't helping anything. We don't have to like each other but can we just co-exist? Peace?