Newbie Questions

[IAmZon]

Several points have been raised in recent threads that create questions in my mind.  Could those who know, please clarify ...

1, Regarding the Newly Rich in Moscow and St. Petersburg, what does that mean?  I realize that these city's economies have improved over the last 15 years.  But I can not imagine the setting being like LA; Boca Raton; the Hamptons.  Is the wealth not very concentrated?  What are the costs of living as they relate to say Atlanta?

Are the major metropolitan areas similar in this regard, whether in Ukraine, or Russia?

2, Is it not true that in the communistic era everyone had about the same thing ... and that thing was minimal (apartments, cars, etc...)?  If this has changed so dramatically, what is the distribution (only criminals are rich / those who work hard)?

3, Why does there seem to be 10x the amount of women listed on dating sites from the Ukraine as compared to Russian and the other FSU countries?

4, There seems to be a lack, or at least a disproportionately lower, number of agencies in Moscow and St. Peteresburg.  Why is this so?

thanks

[Turboguy]

I will take a stab at part of this. 

New rich is usually mafia.  This can involve some very big bucks sometimes.  The new rich could often probably match or exceed what you see in wealthier communities in America.   The costs of living in Moscow are the highest in the world but for an average person living there it is not usually the case.   The income and living costs for Moscow are far behind San Francisco and other areas in the USA.  The cost of visiting may be much higher.

In the old days in theory everyone was equal, in practice they were not.  The Communist vision statement was "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"   In practice a card carrying member of the Communist party was given favoritism.    Those who became favorites were often given favors.   This could be in some cases a sexy woman.

I think in reality there are not 10 times the women available in Ukraine, it just seems that way.  Perhaps on a per capita basis it may be two or three times though and I think the economy may be a factor.

I can only guess about the low number of agencies.  Perhaps it is because a lot of the men going to those cities were brought there by US agencies, such as those who did romance tours.  Otherwise I have no idea.

[William3rd]

I can only take a stab at #3.

1- Moscow and St. Petersburg are "overfished." There are only a finite number of women genuinely interested in seeking a foreign mate.

2- The economy has changed dramatically since 1997. Jobs and salaries are much more plentiful and life has improved, further depleting the numbers of eligible women seeking foreign husbands.

3- The newness has worn off. Documentaries abound about the problems of international husbands and unethical agencies.

I think JB is probably one of the better qualified to answer most of this question.

[KenC]

Several points have been raised in recent threads that create questions in my mind.  Could those who know, please clarify ...

1, Regarding the Newly Rich in Moscow and St. Petersburg, what does that mean?  I realize that these city's economies have improved over the last 15 years.  But I can not imagine the setting being like LA; Boca Raton; the Hamptons.  Is the wealth not very concentrated?  What are the costs of living as they relate to say Atlanta?

Are the major metropolitan areas similar in this regard, whether in Ukraine, or Russia?

After the fall of Communism, Russia's economy was in complete disarray.  There were the super rich, made up of Oligarchs that stole or were given by Yeltsin the countries wealth producing assets ie: oil industry,telecommunications, manufacturing etc.  There was also a *another* group of criminals (mafia) that took control of the next tier of income producing activities.  And then there was everyone else!  No middle class to speak of. There were the poor and just above them, the almost poor.  That's the way Russia stayed until Putin took over. 

Now there is a small but growing middle and even upper middle class.  Entrepreneurship is growing and wages have stabilized and are in an upward trend.  Of course with the prosperity also come inflation too as prices have also jumped considerably.

2, Is it not true that in the communistic era everyone had about the same thing ... and that thing was minimal (apartments, cars, etc...)?  If this has changed so dramatically, what is the distribution (only criminals are rich / those who work hard)?

NO, there  were favored people in the Communist era.  Military Officers always got favored treatment, with preferred flats and a better retirement program for example.  Also government workers, especially managers got a better deal.

3, Why does there seem to be 10x the amount of women listed on dating sites from the Ukraine as compared to Russian and the other FSU countries?

Economics, geography and familiarity.  With the improving economy in Moscow and SPB the economic need to look for a a foreign spouse simply isn't necessary.  Believe it or not most RW would prefer RM to AM.

Ukraine's economy is not doing as well as Russia's, so the economic need for the ladies is greater.  Ukraine is also a rather small geographically in comparison to Russia so the concept of seeking a foreign husband travels well from one city to the next.  It is also easier for agencies to spread their data base of women in the smaller area.  As Ukraine's economy grows, look for the Russian hinterlands and other fsu countries to be mined by agencies.

4, There seems to be a lack, or at least a disproportionately lower, number of agencies in Moscow and St. Peteresburg.  Why is this so?

thanks

See above.
KenC

[Michelangelo]

And don't forget that Ukraine can draw more American visitors because of no visa requirement and no registration hassle once you get there.  It's easier and less expensive to travel to Ukraine.  Hence, more clients means more robust agencies.

[KenC]

Michelangelo,
Good point but that is a rather recent change and the effects will not be known until the future.
KenC

[Jumper]

Is the wealth not very concentrated?  What are the costs of living as they relate to say Atlanta?

Moscow is certainly one of the worlds most expensive cities to live.
it normally ranks #1 each year..
but always in the top three.
and always will ahead of US cities like LA or NY.
 
costs of living vs atlanta?
the "what cities are the most expensive to live "
 studies-
 generally include the average salary vs what it cost to to live ..

atlanta is seldom in the top 20 i doubt?

in any case no comparison to Moscow


as fars as wealthy?   Moscow likely has more multi millionares than just about any US city.,and likely more billionares..??

but i wouldnt think the wealth is speread as evenly
thru a true and large middle class..

they do have a quickly growing middle class though

Are the major metropolitan areas similar in this regard, whether in Ukraine, or Russia?

Moscow out strips the others quite  a bit in cost of living, ,it also
ot strips the others in salaries..
 
in Russia,  there is Moscow, then there is everywhere else?
its almost its own country.. or entity.


as far as provincial citries -
if you had a normal western salary in dnepropetrovsk,  kharkov,
Simferopol ,Volgograd , Rostiv on don etc..
you would find the cost of living quite good.

if you had a provincial city *salary* , in a provincial city..
youd be pinching kopeks,
but nevertheless getting by quite normally ,
much as the general population does in those modern cities.

salaries have gotten a bit better,,
but inflation is rising quickly,,

There seems to be a lack, or at least a disproportionately lower, number of agencies in Moscow and St. Peteresburg.  Why is this so?

Moscow is viewed as the epicenter of the world by most people in that culture..and it is a nice modern city ..with a lot to offer , and in thier own language and culture,..

St pete is likely #2 most desirable place to the general publics eye to live?
it's Kiev, for Ukranians..   but most of them would also  jump at a good oppurtunity in  Moscow.


IF someone from that culture  lives there already , or relocates there..

This  is like you ,ricardo, moving to a spot you find as the VERY most attractive place , that  offers the best amneties ,job oppurtunities and lifestyle in the US.,.
with plenty of availble single folks as well.

now would you then be looking to move?

*shrugs*

[IAmZon]

I was aware that there was a very very affluent top to the Russian economy.  But I was not aware that it created an "affluent norm" which is what I implied by referencing LA, South Beach Miami, and the Hamptons.

A requirement for success is to find a woman who is open, willing - no, probably, aggressively seeking - a new environment.  This strongly suggests that the RW is in a  "compromising" position to me ... any mule or knight will do, just get me outta here.

Am I to understand that ladies from Moscow and STP, by and large, are more content and do not want to leave home?  Similar to ladies in Finland, or Prague? Am I to conclude that ladies in the "stans" and Ukraine (especially the economically depressed areas of the country) are highly motivated to relocate?

[jb]

Am I to understand that ladies from Moscow and STP, by and large, are more content and do not want to leave home?  Similar to ladies in Finland, or Prague? Am I to conclude that ladies in the "stans" and Ukraine (especially the economically depressed areas of the country) are highly motivated to relocate?

I think you are starting to get it.  There are some places you could visit and within days meet pretty women and ask her to marry.  You would fall into that group know as "One Week Wonders".  If you tried that with a equally pretty Moscovichka, she'd probably look at you as if you had suddenly grown horns.

[IAmZon]

(I have just tried to find recent threads that explore the differences between Big city girls and country girls; and the definition of "villages - neither really apply to my next comment / question)

BTW, I am tying to select destination. 

So, in secondary cities in Ukraine especially, Russia too, does the level of education and  sophistcation drop off fast and deep?  My definition of "sophistication" here is  refined manner and grace. 

Personal story:  Several years ago, one of my employees invited me to a birthday party.  She was Philippine.  I did not know her well but I felt obligated to make an appearance.  I did not know she was a "mail order bride" (I hate that term used for the FSU, however, it applies much better in the Philiipine example).

At the party there were e about 20 other ladies with their new American Husbands. The ladies were all very nice, not ugly.  The men were all a little off.  There was  primitive element to the group that reminded me of scenes from The Island of Dr. Moreau. More than a little creepy.

Another Personal Story:  I recently travelled to Caribbean and Central America.  It was easy to meet ladies.  I met ladies from Brazil, Argentina, Dominican Republic, and Columbia.  It would be difficult to find women more beautiful any where in the world.  But again, I saw this primitive element at work.  I was with this one girl I met on business ... she was particularly beautiful.  At dinner, she picked her nose - long and hard.  That sort of killed it for me.  (Am I being too picky:)

I imagine this primitive element is not in the major cities in FSU.  I wonder if manners and grace drop off in the secondary cities and provinces?

[Turboguy]

Rivardco,

I think if the only motivation of these women were to latch onto the first mule who will carry her away to a better life the long range odds of happiness would be about zero.

I think those who think the economic reasons are the only reasons are about as on track as the agency's who portray old fashioned values and submissive women which we all know is a crock of .....

I also think the stories of RM being a bunch of drunks, of the shortage of men and the like have some element of truth but are overblown.

My thoughts are that first there is a small percentage of women who are misguided.  They see too much TV and think all Americans are rich and they want to be rich or they want to get to a better life in America and will use anyone or do anything to get where they have a shot at the big time.  

I think for a lot of the women they see themselves in a culture that does little to help the average person.   Where the average person if they are smart and eductat ed can do little more than get by.   They see a culture where the men tend to not be real faithful or real family oriented.  Where if a guy is successful he tends to have both a wife and a mistress.  Where, when she looses her looks he will run off with a younger woman.  Where women are not really treated as equal to men.  They see men who don't make good fathers, who are a bit spoiled and self oriented and who sometimes drink too much.  

I think it is pretty normal that if a gal is in a place where she can make a good income they tend to be more willing to put up with the other issues.  If she is struggling to make ends meet and worried about wanting to help her aging parents then her life does not look so good to her and she is apt to spend more time thinking about how to make it better and a foreign man who she may see as more devoted and better husband material may seem more appealing.   It does make the places where the economy is not good a better place to hunt.  It is only logical that if the economy is better and she has more choices in a suitor she is going to be more selective.

[IAmZon]

I don't want to be a one week wonder ... don't want to grow horns either ... don't want to be a fantasizer .... and, I'm not a Nerd.  Your glass of cold water has finally found its home on me, JB. 

So, It is virtually impossible to have an "even and just" introduction, because of an implied and constant compromise that has ALREADY taken place.  The girls want out - first and foremost.  Any selection she is doing after that is damage control.

sway it is?  I am stil trying to determine my proper place.

[Turboguy]

I imagine this primitive element is not in the major cities in FSU.  I wonder if manners and grace drop off in the secondary cities and provinces?

In a word, NO!

Class and sophistication mean different things to different people.  What we want in a woman is different for all of us.

If your definition of what you want is manners and grace it does not drop off at all.  If what you are talking about is a woman who does not pick her nose in public, who chews with her mouth closed, does not act like a lout, who does not pick up a steak with her hands to eat it, who cares about her appearance and is polite and has manners and courtesy, who enjoys things like a symphony, who is eductated and intelligent, who can discuss issues, perhaps with a bias but also with a depth, who has a nice carriage and composure you can find that in most any part of the FSU

If your definition of what you want is someone who can appreciate the advantages to a $ 1000.00 dress, discuss the nuances of virtually any opera or classical composer,  appreciate the differences of a good wine and a truly fine and rare wine, who can hang with the new rich and take command of the gathering, who would not be caught dead shopping in anything but an exclusive store or eating in anything but one of the finer restaurants then Moscow may be the only place.

Changing the subject I think to some extent what men seek and what they offer tends to determine where they seek.   I have also noticed that men who want a wife who is subservant tend to look more at the Asian sources.   They sure are not going to find that in the FSU.  I think too the guys with less to offer do the same.

[Turboguy]

So, It is virtually impossible to have an "even and just" introduction, because of an implied and constant compromise that has ALREADY taken place.  The girls want out - first and foremost.  Any selection she is doing after that is damage control.

sway it is?  I am still trying to determine my proper place.

Someone said, and I believe it, that you can find whatever you want in the FSU.  Some gals just want out.  They are in the minority.  Most want a good man and a good husband and are willing to sacrifice by leaving their friends and family to find that.  They, like us, just want to be happy. 

There are enough examples of guys who have found their special person this way that it is obvious it can be done.  Look at Vaughn, Voyager, Michaelangelo, both Kens and lots more.  jb does not want to see people hurt and their lives ruined and sometimes he gets a little too blunt in his efforts to help them.   One side of the coin is that if you are not careful you can get a GCG or find some hot honey who is not really a good match but you don't find out until too late.   The other side of the coin is that you can never find success in anything if you don't try and there are good women looking for a good man.

[Infoman]

Nice post, Turbo.

I am by no means an expert or even very expereinced in these areas, but I do know one thing...and I am going to be doing this very, very soon...

Meet some women.  Spend time with them.  Have a backup plan.

Odds are the picture will become much clearer during those times which women, if any, are the type of woman that YOU can see yourself in a long-term relationship with.  What works for one might be different for another.  FSU women, by and large, seem to have a lot of "core" traits and interests, and quite frankly, I really admire these.  Beyond that, in meeting face to face, your personality and her personality will shine through, and you both will know if it's something that has long-term potential.

I kind of came in on the end of this thread, so I hope my post is revelant and makes sense.  

Infoman

[Michelangelo]

The girls want out - first and foremost.  Any selection she is doing after that is damage control.

sway it is?  I am stil trying to determine my proper place.

No, Riv, that's NOT the 'sway it is.

In fact, if you have a girl who simply "wants to get out," you have the wrong girl.

I'll bet if you did a poll of married guys here, you would find that the vast majority have wives who love their countries and did not want to leave. They left to create a family with their man, who happens to live abroad.

I know my Vik wants us to live in Ukraine.  Scott actually does live in Ukraine with his wife.

Find a girl who is happy in her homeland and you'll find a girl who will be happy living with you, whereever you live.  That's the 'sway it is...

[jb]

So, in secondary cities in Ukraine especially, Russia too, does the level of education and  sophistcation drop off fast and deep?  My definition of "sophistication" here is  refined manner and grace.

Yeah, pretty much.  Regards education, at the risk of angering a certain element here, I would remind you that there are only 4 major universities in the whole of the FSU which produce a diploma instantly recognised by intitutions of higher learning here. Those universities are located in the large cities, i.e., Moscow, St. Pete. Novosibirsk, and Kiev.  Just about all other schools in the provincial cities are little more than trade schools.  The quality of some of those "Institutions" is quite high considering they were originally only intended to provide a skilled work force for the Communist State run industries, but do not expect too much in the way of a well rounded education from a Province school.

[Gator]

Joining late as usual these days:

Answers to your original questions.

Questions 1 and 2.  The “Newly Rich” in Russia are referred to as New Russians.  A few of these are oligarchs, each worth billions. And a few are in organized crime; however, this element supposedly is not as significant as in the mid-1990s.  In contrast, the term New Russians to me applies to a much larger population of businessmen clever enough and unscrupulous enough (if not outright immoral) to make a great income.   The Exile refers to them as the “minigarch”.   

http://www.exile.ru/field_guide.html

These are not young professionals with high income jobs for banks – those are considered upper middle class.  The largest number of New Russians are entrepreneurs involved in the real estate market, car dealerships, high-end fashion boutiques, fast food franchises, dry cleaning, etc. -  just like in America.   The economy is booming which allows construction companies, etc. to make a bundle. 

Do not forget about crooked government officials.  I dated a woman whose ex-husband is the district attorney and makes a fabulous living assuring that criminals who pay do not get convicted.  In Egypt I met a police chief from a Ukrainian city who talked to me about buying several high-end condominiums in Florida.

There is a lot of money coursing through the economic arteries of Russia.   It is not confined to Moscow, Kiev and St. Piter.  When in Dnepropetrovsk I noticed many $150,000 - $250,000 Bentleys (see photo below).

Question 3.  The economy.  Russia has always had a better economy than Ukraine.  Ukraine has no oil, and with the recent surges in oil prices Russia has outstripped Ukraine even further. 

Question 4.  There are plenty of RM making a good income in Moscow, so young RW have no problem finding someone.  See this link.

http://www.omen.ru/  -  I can not read the site, but I think it is for typical dating.  There is obviously  a sprinkling of working girls.  Notice that most women want a man around their age (the only ones interested in older men are seeking to be sponsored).

And it occurs in Ukraine too:  http://www.flirt.com.ua/

[Michelangelo]

I'll have to disagree with you on the quality of higher education in the FSU, JB.   It was and is very high.

In the USSR, there were 15 republics.  Every republic had a capital, and a flagship institution.   These were all excellent universities.  Some had pockets of expertise that made them world class in that field.

And take Ukraine...all the big cities have good universities.  Take Dnepropetrovsk State University.  My Vik's major was marketing, and they had relationships with universities in Holland (Amsterdam University) and other countires, and guest faculty came for lectures.  Her further studies in the US are demonstrating that she "knows her stuff."  Stuff learned in Ukraine.

Vik also says American education is very narrow; in Ukraine she studied everything.  I fear that this recent shift in American education to the narrow will in the long run hamper our creativity and accomplishments.

BTW- every girl I dated in the FSU had university degrees, or were in univeristy.  I don't know the figures, but my guess is that the FSU has a higher rate of college grads than most countries.

If you are saying there are some top universities in the FSU, sure, it's true.  But that does not make the other universities sub-standard.  Remember, Riv wrote "So, in secondary cities in Ukraine especially, Russia too, does the level of education and  sophistcation drop off fast and deep?"

Fast and deep?  No, not true.

[Son of Clyde]

The population in Ukraine is rather high and my wife's friends all have Ukrainian husbands. It seems to me a small portion of the female population want out. Maybe 10% and not 80% as many might think. Some women place their profiles at agencies and promptly forget about it until they receive a letter. If my wife has 10 close friends and only one other woman has moved to the US it must mean they are not all scurrying to the agencies to get their profiles up.

I liked the nose picking statement. Think of all the Americans who have this bad habit.

[KenC]

Rivarco,
You have received a lot of good information here, most I agree with.  I do think that Turbo is overstating that there is no possibility of a drop off in grace and manners in RW from a smaller city because there certainly can be as that "meat in hand" girl he referred to came from one!  But Turbo also made an excellent point when he referred to how many of the successful marriages here have come from meeting women that were not so desperate to leave the fsu.  So, with all this great input of information, as I see it you are asking "what the hell do I do now?"  How to apply all this theoretical information in a practical manner is your next step any way.

My opinion, and the way I would go about this is as follows:  I would pick an honest agency that was located in a medium size city close to one of the major cities (Moscow, SPB, Kiev, Odessa). This will provide you with two things.  Easier travel for now and in the future and the influence of the culture of the larger cities.  For example, Lifetime Partners a long established and honorable agency in located in Tver a city of 500K pop and a 2 hr drive from Moscow.  (I am going to address this from what I know and I am sure that there are others in Ukraine, but I just am not familiar with them)  Tver is heavily influenced by Moscow.  My wife, Lena, is from Tver and I met her through LTP.  Tver State University is also located there and though not as "accredited" as some of the more prestigious schools in Moscow, has given many of the Tver women what I would consider a very good educational background.  Better than most Universities here, I dare say.

Lena was a year shy of her degree when she relocated here. She had already been promised a position in a prestigious research center in Moscow upon graduation.  She had many friends and professional contacts in Moscow and there is no doubt that she would be living in Moscow today if it were not for me.  As I see it, she gave up quite a lot in order to be with me.  This and the fact that she was living a good lifestyle provided by her two working parents with good jobs and income set aside any fears I might have had in regard to being any sort of mule for access to America.  In fact she never had a burning desire to be here.

Now, how do you find such a woman in an agency promoting marriage to a foreigner?  Very carefully.  In Lena's own words, 90% of the women listed in her agency were looking for a good time at the expense of the men visiting or a ticket to America.  And this is with an agency that is highly regarded!  You need to try and focus on zeroing in on that last 10% of women left.  The ones that would consider leaving under the right circumstances, but are not so motivated as to do so under less than perfect conditions.  The women would have to be convinced to leave because of you. This is not going to happen in a week.

Most of the relationships between AM and RW from agencies are kind of backed into.  He comes to the table with the lure of America and that is the over riding factor in most of the RW's mind set.  Then the couple "hits it off" and maybe a true relationship develops or not.  Only time will tell.  The truth is that most of the men involved with this process are like the men you referred to at the Philippine party.  Those are the type of men that you will be competing with.  So the more you have to offer above and beyond just a ticket to America, the more selective you can be.  And in "selective" I mean the more sincere woman you can seek out.  You will have to truly woo a RW that is ambivalent about coming to America.  She will not just hop on board and sign up for a K-1 in a weeks time.
KenC
edited to add: Keep in mind that with what I am proposing you will be getting into a lot more finer details of the relationship beyond she looks good and we have fun together.  How this can be accomplished without a common language, I have no clue.  You will have to be able to "read" her responses as the 90% that I spoke of will try to give you the answers you are looking for too. 

[Michelangelo]

Let me be very direct to you, Riv.

The best place to find a mate for an American guy is in America.  All this stuff about American women being bitches and work obsessed is over stated.

Now, if you do want a successful international marriage, it is possible.  But very very difficult.

It will take time to locate the right girl and lots of time with her to be sure she is the right girl.  And guess what?  FSU girls are harder to get along with than American girls....FSU girls are VERY stubborn.  And cultural diferences will be a real challenge.

For me it was worth it....but the price was high. And for every success story- you find a multitude of failures....real crash and BURN stories.  Cept not many people report those.

[SANDRO43]

And it occurs in Ukraine too:  http://www.flirt.com.ua/

But ALL of the new entries on that page are from Italy (2 girls & 2 boys) ???.

[IAmZon]

Michangelo wrote: "Let me be very direct to you, Riv.  The best place to find a mate for an American guy is in America.  All this stuff about American women being bitches and work obsessed is over stated."

Generalizations are a bitch. And you may well be correct. 

That would be good for me. I do very well with AW.  I would be looking for the same type of woman.  Probably, have to kick up my age criteria 2 - 3 years.  Probably would have to be more accepting about past life's baggage.  But we all have it; and, as long as the woman can carry it, it is all good.

I just want to take a look around before I find myself in another relationship.  You know, relax and enjoy the process.  I really think that much can be gained when two people invest in each other as is the case with International dating. I think that can create a unique glue that holds two people together.  That is my attraction to the process.

[Turboguy]

It is possible to find a woman with little in the way of grace and manners anywhere because some of that comes from individual upbringing.  I think where every you go in the FSU you can find a woman who will qualify. I really have seen women with little in the way of grace and manners far more anywhere in the USA than anywhere in Russia.  Of course many AW do also possess it.

I think Ken's thoughts and Michaelangelo's were both good.   I think you need to look inside yourself and see if it is right for you and I think to the extent you have done it so far I believe you feel it may be.  I will also agree that it is not easy.  I have done enough and been around enough to know that.  The world has many people who look for the easy path in life.  This is not one of them.  Those who seek the easy path through life seldom accomplish much and you don't strike me as one of those.   Take your time and don't settle for the first beautiful gal who seems warm and affectionate.  Make sure there is real compatability.   Extra time in the searching process will pay off.