How necessary English?

[Rvrwind]

That would be the little bugger all right
I'll try your method & see what happens
In reality thats two letters,not one!!

[SANDRO43]

In reality thats two letters, not one!!

Richard, ы is a single letter (though you might arguably call it a digram, because it consists of two separate, though close, graphic symbols), sometimes called "yeri", and is a guttural-velar vowel that only Russian has (I don't know about other Slavic languages). No equivalent sound exists in other languages as far as I know (none in Indo-European languages, or in Japanese or Arabic), hence the difficulty in mimicking its sound, since we have no phonetic analogies to draw upon.

I was suggesting muy since U is also a velar vowel and therefore closest to it in our known phonetic repertoire. Gradually slurring the U should bring you close enough to make it discernible to Russian ears .

[Rvrwind]

I also figured sitting on the toilet & trying to lay a big one closely resembled the the desired vocal effect.

[ScottinCrimea]

That's the one that seems to give everyone problems.  One suggestion is to push your tongue toward the back of your mouth with your finger while trying to say it, forcing the sound to come from your throat.  Not too polite socially, but okay for practice.  Whenever they give me a hard time about how I pronounce this, I just ask them to say words like "her", "gutter", "born", "hair", etc that they have difficulty with.  They shut up pretty quick.

[SANDRO43]

I also figured sitting on the toilet & trying to lay a big one closely resembled the the desired vocal effect.

Quite so. However, inviting your Russian friends to the toilet for a chat might be seriously misinterpreted, but not as bad as puking on them as Scott's suggestion might entail .

[Stirlitz]

Oh, guys… Yeah, languages can be tough. I can see it.

[Rvrwind]

Quite so. However, inviting your Russian friends to the toilet for a chat might be seriously misinterpreted, but not as bad as puking on them as Scott's suggestion might entail .

TFF Sandro...ROTFLMFAO
Not only that, but Scotts suggestion don't work so well with false teeth which also seem to hinder some of my vocalisations!!! Dang, just gets tougher, LOL.

[Vaughn]

Richard, is this the letter giving you problems

ы

as in Mы ? Try prononcing that as muy in Spanish initially, then gradually make the U sound indistinct.

   Sandro, in all the years I've been studying the language, even with initial tutoring by ex-Soviets, that's the best and simplest explanation I've read to date regarding ы's pronunciation.
That one's usually tough, I still flub it. My brother-in-law urged
"relaxation" when I struggled with "являаеться", contorting my mouth with over-effort.

  I can identify with Richard Riverwind - six years ago, I pulled out the dusty Russian/English dictionary and began to restudy after years of neglect, with the goal of native pronunciation at the forefront - for me, it was just a dream. My pronunciation bites, but I've added many nouns, verbs and adjectives to the arsenal.
If I can somehow keep the endings correct, it'll all make sense.

  Scott wrote something about careful choice of English words that
prevent misunderstanding by the RW. Very astute, yet for most intelligent men that discovery comes naturally (perhaps after a few misunderstandings, some coupled with tears?). One thing I learned early on was never to ask in the grocery store: "Do we need _____? (salt, garlic, whatever...)"  She would reply "Есть" (we have some) in Russian, and I thought she was answering "Yes"
(we need some). I changed to "Do we have?"No big deal, but it clued me in that careful choosing of words and phrasing of questions in English was going to be necessary. That's all history now - but for those couples who have little competency in one another's language encounter gliches of a greater magnitude. One fellow I know told his wife about many American food products being loaded up with preservatives. "Impossible" she said. If one pronounces "preservative" like a Russian with the accent on the last syllable, one's just referred to a "condom".

  We speak a mix of English and Russian here in the household, but with English surely winning out.

 

..regarding WM's learning Russian language...

While hard to master, (i never will) it is not THAT hard to get some basics down, or get a fundamental vocabulary .

no! you wont have the endings or correct grammer! but you shouldl be able to acheive  a "dog level" with a little effort on your part

  "Dog level", LOL !!! Don't underestimate AJ's assertion. Unless you're totally in an agency's coddling hands, you'll meet many who won't know a lick of English - and communicating with them, even on a rudimentary level, will benefit you greatly. I think it was TwoBitBandit who long ago wrote (and I paraphrase), "95% of you will never know what I mean...." Her family and friends will love your mongrel style of speaking their tongue, and will help dispel an all-too-common perception that WM's require hefty allowances.

   

[Jumper]

Vaughn -
my wife  thinks my understanding of the language is pretty good, like richard, i can catch the drift of most conversations in a group,
and *one on one* can do a bit better..
however,
she  jokingly says i speak with a thick Georgian accent
(thier Georgia) , which is kind of meant humourous/derogatory.
i asked to her to explain why it would be generally derogatory?
and she said it would be meant something similar to  hillbilly or redneck.
 
I then told her the irony of thier Georgia , and ours ..
(she knows the terms redneck and hillbilly , but wasnt aware of our southern states and thier somewhat common implications of those words)
 
disclaimer- it was just funny.. i mean no disrespect to the southern folks, I grew up mostly in the south ,and my grandparents
were about as hillbilly as they come.

[Vaughn]

 AJ, my wife could never figure out what kind of accent I had until she met my relatives from Pennsylvania, then it all came clear to her. My stepdaughter attended a New York wedding with us, and wanted my sisters' opinion on her accent when speaking English. The unanimous reply: Southern. She expected "Russian", but the fact is, even Yankees like me cannot help but pick up "Ya'll"
and "fixin' to". When you greet a New Yorker with "Hey!" they're reminded of Mayberry Days. Likewise, when NC locals hear me slip up and pronounce coffee as "kawfee" my heritage is apparent.

 Even with your FSU Georgian accent, the relatives must be charmed with your effort and ability to communicate. Good work!

[BillyB]

   My pronunciation bites,
   

I've been known to pronounce Russian words without an accent according to native speakers. The secret is to talk without moving your jaw. Watch Russians talk and you will see very little or no jaw movement.

[LEGAL]

The secret of studying Russian lays highly under a dome, which is named a hard palate

Olga

[SANDRO43]

Scott wrote something about careful choice of English words that prevent misunderstanding by the RW.

Vaughn, that is sound advice, albeit difficult to follow. English is a sort of 2-layer pie, a "Latin" crust (via Norman French) covering an Anglo-Saxon (Germanic) interior. Most Slavic words have almost no connection whatsoever with either the Latin or Germanic lexicons, except for a number of French terms that were incorporated in Imperial times. Therefore, saying for instance "intelligent" rather than "bright" or "clever" is more likely to be understood by Russian speakers.

I still remember my astonishment as a kid when my grandmother told me that pencil in Russian was карандаш, after presenting me with a box of the prized Swiss Caran d'Ache coloured crayons .

[Bruno]

Most Slavic words have almost no connection whatsoever with either the Latin or Germanic lexicons, except for a number of French terms that were incorporated in Imperial times.

Hmmm... my knowledge of French ( Latin origine ) and Dutch ( German origine ) have help me to understand some Russian words... once resolved the problem of the alphabet...

фармация for "pharmacie" in French... some russian say "apteka" who is similar to "apotheek" in Dutch... Same with поли-клиника... etc...

You can find hundred of example with Russian words related to one or other language...

[LEGAL]

Studying Russian you study other languages.
Russian lexical system in its modern kind has appeared not at once. Process of formation of dictionary structure long and complex, closely connected with history of development of Russian people. Russian lexicon included the Polish, Bulgarian, Hungarian words and so on.
For example: the Polish words - квартира (the apartment), замша(shammy-leather ), кофта (a jacket), рисовать( to draw).
Loans from the Greek language have started to get into Russian lexicon during the general Slavic unity.
For example: крест (a cross), хлеб  (a bread), кровать (a bed), philosophy, history, икона (an icon), ангел (an angel), свекла (a beet).
Loans from Latin language have played a significant role in enrichment of Russian, especially in the field of scientific and technical, public and political terminology. Most of all Latin words has come to Russian during with XVI on XVIII century, especially through the Polish and Ukrainian languages, for example: school, an audience, the dean, office, a vacation, director, a dictation, examination, etc. (In it the role of special educational institutions was important.) it is a lot of words of a Latin origin make group of the international fund of terms, for example: dictatorship, the constitution, corporation, laboratory, a meridian, a maximum, a minimum, proletariat, process, public, revolution, republic, erudition, etc.
In Russian it is a lot of words from the Tatar language that speaks historical conditions (a long-term Tatar-Mongolian yoke). Especially many words remain from military, trading and household speech: the caravan, a holster, a barrow, a quiver, astrakhan fur, кистень -bludgeon , клад-treasury, деньги-money, a three-copecks piece, a market, коврига (kovriga), raisin, a water-melon, a basin, утюг- an iron, the center, епанча - yepancha, wide trousers, a belt, a sheepskin coat, arshin, groceries, noodles, a stocking, a boot, a chest, a dressing gown, a fog, mess and is a lot of others.
Loans form  the West-European languages form the one of numerous groups (after old Slavic). Words from the German languages (German, English, Dutch), and also from Romance languages (for example, French, Italian, Spanish) also have played an appreciable role in XVII -XVIII (in connection with Peter's I reforms).
A number of words of trading, military, household lexicon and words from area of art, a science and so on: the bill, a stamp; the corporal, camp, a staff; a tie, a workbench, a chisel, фуганок - smoothing plane - Rauhbank ; spinach; the easel, the conductor, a landscape, a resort concerns to German words. The Dutch words are some seaworthy terms: an iceboat, shipyard, a pendant, harbour, drift, the pilot, the sailor, spot-check, a flag, fleet, etc.
From English language till XIX century some sea terms also have entered: the warrant officer, a boat, a brig, but is much more than the words connected with development  of a public life, technicals, sports, etc. has entered into XX century, for example: boycott, the leader, meeting; a tunnel, a trolley bus, basketball, football, sports, hockey, finish;  the fruitcake, a pudding, etc. have especially extended English words (often in the American variant) in 90th years of XX century in connection with economic, social and political transformations to the Russian society. Loans of the end of XX century have concerned different spheres of a life: technical (a computer, the display, a file, byte), sports (bobsled, an overtime), financial and commercial (barter, the broker, the dealer, the distributor, leasing), arts (a remake, a current-show, a underground, a thriller),  political (a briefing, a rating, impeachment, a lobby), etc. Separate loans XVIII-XIX concern to French, type of household words: a bracelet, a wardrobe, a waistcoat, a coat, body stockings; a broth, fruit candy, a cutlet, a toilet,  and also words from military lexicon, art and so on: attack, artillery, a battalion, garrison, a cannonade; the actor, the poster, the play, the director and under.
From other West-European loans musical terminology of the Italian origin is allocated: an aria, allegro, the libretto, the tenor, gallantly, buffoonery, a sonata, a carnival,  cavatina ; some household words have entered also: vermicelli, macaroni (has come via French), a gondola, etc. Insignificant quantity of words has come from the Spanish language: serenade, castanets, a guitar,mantilla , then: a caravel, caramel , a cigar, a tomato, etc.

...........

Olga.

[LEGAL]

I still remember my astonishment as a kid when my grandmother told me that pencil in Russian was карандаш

Russian word карандаш - pencil is word from Tatar-Mongolian language 

Olga.

[Bruno]

Studying Russian you study other languages.

And the reverse is true too... Stuying other languages, you study Russian...

But reading these post, i can see that Russian use different words for the same things...

Insignificant quantity of words has come from the Spanish language: ...a tomato...

Yes, "томат" is a Russian word... but when i was in Odessa, i have never hear it on the market... everybody was using "pomidoro"... seem that Ukrainian use more italian words...

I cannot write Russian/Ukrainian... but because of contact with people there, i have learn to understand words... immersion is the best method for learn language, specialy for people like me who are not able to learn language in school ( to much idiot )... learn Dutch by working 3 month at night in a pub... learn English during my short stay in USA...

PS : Now, about language and learn it... be carefull... some women on dating site don't really seek a husband but more a Western partner who can help her for learn english... We have the keyboard Romeo, they have the keyboard Juliet... they are not scammer, gold digger or other bad thing... simply use all mean for be in contact with english speaking men... it is a enough new categorie of girls who make the dating process a little more difficult...

[LEGAL]

Yes, "томат" is a Russian word...

Tomato is Spanish word 

Olga

[Rvrwind]

Tomato is Spanish word 

Olga

Actually Tomato is - a type of fleshy, juicy fruit, usually red, used in salads, sauces etc

[jb]

Question:  What is the English name for that fruit?

[SANDRO43]

Tomato is Spanish word

Not originally, it comes from Nahuatl (Aztec) tomatl, since the vegetable itself is Mesoamerican. And sorry to contradict you, Olga, I have some doubts that карандаш may come from Tatar-Mongolian, I do not think they were much interesteded in writing and the production of pencils . BTW, Caran d'Ache was the pseudonym of Emmanuel Poiré, a XIX century French cartoonist.

As you imply in your post, words are borrowed from foreign languages when new things arrive from abroad, AND in the absence of a strong nationalistic policy AGAINST this (witness France, or Italy during Fascism, when new words were invented e.g. for things like cognac, blues etc.). Or the case of Israel, where they resurrected Ancient Hebrew for contemporary usage, doing some linguistic somersaults to denote things unheard of in Biblical times (IIRC, their word for automobile literally translates as "fire chariot" ).

[SANDRO43]

Question:  What is the English name for that fruit?

I don't think there is one, unless you want to call it wolf peach, based on its Latin name of "Solanum lycopersicum" .

[jb]

Sandro,

In cases where a language is isolated from the developing mother tongue this is not uncommon.  Case in point is the french spoken in southern Louisiana, it is basically the same french as was spoken in France in 1800,  The Creole has not been kept up to date, (out of touch) and has become archaic.  To compensate, either English words are substituted, or older words remain in the lexicon, i.e., the word for taxi literally translates to "horse drawn carriage", or the English equivalent of a "hack".  I used to pal around with a language archaeologist who made studies of these isolated language pockets because it gives insight into older writings.

And, I actually knew the answer,,, the English name for a tomato is the "love apple", it is a member of the nightshade family.

[SANDRO43]

In cases where a language is isolated from the developing mother tongue this is not uncommon.  Case in point is the French spoken in southern Louisiana, it is basically the same french as was spoken in France in 1800

True, the same applies to Afrikaans vs. modern Dutch, for instance.

the English name for a tomato is the "love apple"

Never heard that, thanks, you add to my fund of linguistic lore .

[Mir]

We have really everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language.
(Oscar Wilde, The Canterville Ghost, 1882)