Less than 90 days or more than 90 days?

[Photo Guy]

I chose the 90 days for this topic arbitrarily, just like it was chosen arbitrarily for the
K-1 visa period. Yes, I wanted to marry her. I did not want her to return to Ukraine. 
In retrospect, I think that would've been too hasty. We weren't ready, for a number of reasons.
After 85 days of face time, we were not ready. How many guys here decided to marry
with way less than 90 days? Yes, to make a decision to marry after a week or two
of face time, is ridiculous. Get lots of face time before making the big decision to marry.
85 days of face time was not sufficient for us. And there are many happy couples here
who have spent far less than 85 days of face time together. I am not going to
condemn them.

BC, when a guy spends time with his gal in the FSU or a tropical beach or
hometown USA, it may be experienced with serious intentions and
the proper attitude for discovering and learning about each other.
-not necessarily a casual 'field trip', as you say. 

[Turboguy]

Well, I am sure I am going to get a lot of people who disagree with me strongly on this thought I will be throwing out but I think the 90 day period or any period doesn't mean a lot. 

I am not sure if I can explain what I mean or not, but 90 days is a measuring point.  One mile is a measuring point.   One mile can mean something a lot different if you are in a BMW or on a bicycle or walking or crawling.  90 days can too.    Trying to relate that to learning about a woman and compatability, some women can be very open and communicative  (a BMW).   Some women are very private (a crawler) some are in between (a biker or walker)   

If I relate that to the two RW that I have been most involved with, my former fiancee Luda and VWRW, I spent perhaps 130 days of face to face time with Luda and truthfully didn't know her at all.  She was a very private person and you had to pick things out and read between the lines to learn about her.   With VWRW it is totally the opposite.  She is very communicative and open with me and after much less face to face time I feel I have a very good handle on who she is.  I enjoy being with her very much but as far as learning new things about her I will be surprised if there is much more to learn.   

[William3rd]

Back to the 90 days being chosen arbitrarily- keep in mind that the K1 is no longer being used for what it was designed for. It was originally designed to have a marriage occur here in the US-not for you all to get some get acquainted time here. When the K1 is filed, you are already intending to marry your fiancee.

EVen the instructions for the K used to say that some evidence was letters from the person to officaite ande evidence of wedding plans.

[Photo Guy]

I guess 90 days does make sense for setting up a gigantic elaborate wedding
and reception. The government knows best...    I could probably make arrangements
in a very quick 30 days, but hey, that's just MY point of view. 
The K-1 visa is antiquated. The tourist visa discriminates against
various poor countries. The work visa isn't working.
Question authority.

Let's face it- the government should facilitate face time in the context of
international dating. The government should not impede the process, in my opinion. 
Sure the government should protect us from potential threats by closely scutinizing
visa sponsors and applicants. There would be far fewer K-1 failures if there had been
a proper visa program in place, allowing time for the couple to gain more face time,
in a no-pressure situation.

If I want to sponsor a Visitor's Visa(a new hypothetical visa type) for a gal, why
should the government be concerned? It's my love life, not theirs.   

[William3rd]

The 4 categories-

Citizen- the person living there with no restrictions
resident- the guest living there
visitor- those with visas there temporarily
undocumented-those who are here without invitation

And then we come to the visitors- poor countries are discriminated against because their citizens do not leave when they are allowed in. Those countries whose citizens leave on time end up not needing visas to come at all. They can always EWI but that is no fun because they have no rights to work, drive, have bank accounts, etc.

[Photo Guy]

William,
A Mexican citizen who wants a tourist visa, has the same difficulties
as a Russian citizen?

Where can I find the surveys and statistics that you are referring to?
Which are the 'poor' countries on the 'risky' list?

Undocumented immigrants in AZ can obtain driver's licenses.
What is 'EWI'?

Citizens who overstay- Couldn't this problem can be solved simply
by strengthening the sponsorship requirement?

[jb]

Personally, I advocate getting rid of the K-1 visa altogether.  It would stop the abusers who use it as a "trial marriage". 

[CaptB]

Photoguy,

I'll have to disagree that spending time "with serious intentions in the US, on a tropical beach (in a place other than the US or FSU) are not the same. If you are serious about learning about an RW you really need to be with her on her home turf........first......and probably for most of your visiting time. On "vacation"......or even in the US (or future country of residence) there are many important things you can "never" learn about her. You can't meet her friends, family and coworkers.......and see how all of these important people (possible inlaws, new friends etc.)..............regard "her" as a person. All of the great people in my wife's circle of family, friends and coworkers regarded her very highly.....as one of the nicest persons they knew. I observed her interactions with all these people....her friendship....work ethic.....negative traits.

Second choice would be how she interacts on "your" turf. For all practical purposes this won't happen for most.......except during the K-1 (or equivalent in other countries) visa period. I think if you observe long enough and carefully.....there is no reason to believe she will not basically remain the same person once landing in your country. My wife displays the same affection, humor, open-mindedness, williness to learn, work ethic. My immpression is that she would adapt easily to any environment during my observations in Russia. I was right about such things......when she arrived here.

Such importent things that you can observe about her on "her" turf.......you will never witness on "vacation"......somewhere else. I have to be blunt here. For those with the time and money to see their RW for all the time they deem necessary to make a proper decission......that she is the "one".......and throw in a vacation to an exotic place........good for you. But I see guys making a first or second visit.....in a vacation spot outside the FSU.....and I don't understand it. Most will agree......time in this venture is very limited when comparing it to the time you would spend at home. Only the rare individual will spend the same amount of time making a decission about marriage to an RW........as he would at home to an AW. Vacations are fun. People don't always act on vacation.....they way they would at home (What happens in Vegas......stays.....in Vegas ). I know two guys from RWG
who spent more "facetime" with their RW than average. But more than half in each case was .....on "vacation"........in another country. Many old-timers would immediately know one of the individuals......the other guy I met in Russia at Shemetyevo......and kept in touch with over the years. Both uttimately brought their RW over on a K-1.......and both were ultimately......divorced.
They thought that playing "nice" on vacation.......translated to good match.

On "vacation" you can "ask" alot of serious questions......but only in the environment that shaped the person....."she really is".........can you "observe"......firsthand.......the answers.
The answers my wife gave me........were backed-up many times over.....by those who knew her all her life. You are not going to get such insight...............on vacation.

Capt B  

[Photo Guy]

That's amusing jb. <grin>Practicallly every week, I have heated discussions with
those around me who are constantly complaining about the hundreds of abusers.
The abuse really disrupts society, harms the economy, and creates an
environment of turmoil here in the West. (tongue-in-cheek) My home
town is bordering on pure anarchy, because of those many visa abusers.
It's almost a worse situation than the many motorists I've seen lately
driving OVER the speed limit. When a K-1 couple spends 90 days together
and actually decide NOT to get married, it creates a ripple effect through
society - almost as terrible as collapsing skyscrapers, and partial
birth abortions.  ...Okay, I'll stop now.  Sheesh.

Now about REAL abuse:
Terrorists who pose as students and arrive by way of Student Visas....

[Turboguy]

Back to the 90 days being chosen arbitrarily- keep in mind that the K1 is no longer being used for what it was designed for. It was originally designed to have a marriage occur here in the US-not for you all to get some get acquainted time here. When the K1 is filed, you are already intending to marry your fiancee.

Even the instructions for the K used to say that some evidence was letters from the person to officiate ande evidence of wedding plans.

I have a feeling that a lot of the failed K-1's are situations where one of the partners is working in good faith and one is trying the waters.   I think that was the case with my first.   I think that happened to some extent both with PG and myself in my first K-1.  

CaptB,

I think you make some good points.  I can't argue a bit about the importance of meeting her family and friends.   I think a vacation together can have different meanings.   Yes, you are in an artificial atmosphere that does not relate to real life.   If you spend 16 hours a day in high energy enjoyment it gives little indication of what your life will be together.   You can however spend a lot of time communicating and being together and not worry so much about the entertainment value of where you are.

jb,  The way things are going I would not be surprised to see it happen.   I can't even say I disagree with you.  It could be better to do away with it.   I think there are a lot of things about the processes as they are now that could use some changing.  

With VWRW even though I have at this point a lot less face to face time with her than I had with Luda we have discussed all kinds of things such as wedding dresses, size of the wedding, who we were inviting and lots more.  I don't think either of us is looking at it as a trial period to see if we are suited for each other.   Of course we have also had long discussions about our life after the wedding.  

Back to the point that I made in my last post, I feel like I know VWRW a million times better than I did Luda even though we only have a fraction of the time spent face to face.   I think the openness of the communication can have more effect on getting to know someone than does the number of days you spend together.

[Photo Guy]

Capt,
Yes, time on her turf is important. I wish I had done more of that.
(As I've stated before)

Face time is important -and we probably all agree on that.

Types:
1- time in her country and time in her city or tiny village
2- time in another country, often a 'vacation' setting
3- time in your home town, the West.

I think all three types can be beneficial. No?
Choice number 2, is probably a little less beneficial than
the other two, but far from not being beneficial at all.

[jb]

geesh~! P/G,

I was referring to curbing the divorce rate between RW and AM who had spent not enough time to get their sh!t together.  I am not talking about plugging the southern border's many leaks.  That's a whole 'nother topic.

You really do take everythiing personally, don't you?

[I/O]

P/G Dont get yourself all bent up of the "Abuser" word.  I think you have missed the point in the context it was used.  I read it as those who "Abuse the visa system" by using it as a trial marriage, which it was never designed to do.

Visa abuse is the issue here not people abuse.  Although, IMHO the two are often linked one way or another.

I/O

[Photo Guy]

Hey I'm sorry- maybe I overreacted.
My take on it is-  If it doesn't work out between a RW and a AM,
it is NONE OF THE BUSINESS OF THE GOVERNMENT!!!!

Is the govt in the business of managing romantic/marriage
relationships? !!   I question that outlook. It scares me
that some would think the govt has some kind of
business in our personal lives.  I want them to
facilitate the pursuit of happiness, and not invent
a strict rulebook.

[I/O]

P/G The thing is, the Gov't is not inventing any rule book.  The rules for you guys are remarkably similar to ours and to start whinging about it now is not much use to anyone. 

The basic fact is We new what the rules were before we started.  If any of us didn't and got ourselves all twisted about changing things, then come visit me and I'll take you for a walk down reality street.  The first thing you'll see is the sign that says, "It ain't gunna happen".

The issue I have is poor and inconsistant application and administration of the rules, but again, that is a very seperate subject.

I/O

[CaptB]

Photoguy,

Actually......real immigration abuse.....is a guy who brings an RW here......things are nice for about 40 days.....a nice house......the guy is a good actor......they get married........THEN......she learns the house was only a temporary rental while he took some time off to find a wife. He was a trucker......who did not own......or lease.....a home. He expected her to be on the road with him......living in the truck with him.......but with no home to go back to (with the promise of maybe someday). This really happened. Lots of other similar bizare cases.

Real common abuse. The guy who is bringing an RW on a K-1 visa here. As her to "quit" her job.....sell unneeded posesstions.......maybe give-up a flat.........move here on a K-1.........and then find they are not compatible. I always advocate not burning those bridges.....until marriage. Sure it may mean another trip back before you are ready for "vacation".........but it is most fair......to the woman. My pal jb was forunate that his wife was here in the US on other business in her past.......hence she knew firsthand what the US was like. My wife was not fortunate to have visited the US......but her extensive studies on American history, literature, culture......bore no real big surprises when she landed here.
Within weeks she was very comfortable. Both jb and I advocate knowing you want to be married prior to exercising a k-1. That being said......I will add that the best laid plans...."could" change during the ninety day visit. She may not like the US.....it has happened. Maybe the dynamics of interaction between you change.....once being ........"here" .....together. I think you need to know you are getting married prior to activating a K-1. Don't burn "her" bridges until you are a done deal.

Capt B  

[jb]

P/G,

it is NONE OF THE BUSINESS OF THE GOVERNMENT!!!!

You are absolutely correct with this.  The gov doesn't care who you marry, or even if you marry.  Personally, I think the gov would prefer you stay single for tax purposes.

Is the govt in the business of managing romantic/marriage
relationships? !!

No way, the gov is in the business of trying to keep our borders secure, and at the same time allow trade to happen, which is the life blood of the nation.  Your love life is the least of our worries.

It scares me that some would think the govt has some kind of business in our personal lives.

The government is involved in your life from the time you get your SSN, 'til you die. 

I want them to facilitate the pursuit of happiness, and not invent a strict rulebook.

You are indeed a dreamer, because of the abusers, there have to be rules,,, it's very simple.  There is a bigger picture out there than P/G's misadventures in the Ukraine.  Sorry, Bro, but in the overall scheme of things, you are very small potatoes.

[Turboguy]

First off.   They do call it a Fiancee Visa.   I guess if they called it a "Come see America and see if you might like to marry that guy you hardly know Visa it would be a rather ackward name.   CSAASIFMLTMTGYHK Visa does not even make a good acronym.   I guess they had some reason to call it what they did.   I am traveling and don't have a dictionary handy but I have a feeling if I did, the definiton of "Fiancee" would be something like a couple who are romatically involved and have announced plans to marry.   I have to think they picked the term Fiancee Visa for a reason so I don't think there is much wrong with the idea that people who apply for one should have the intention of getting married.   I also would not have a problem with the NVC setting up a new row of file cabinets and taking applications for those who want a trial marriage.   They could accept the fees and file the application in that file until Washington authorizes such a visa then dig them out and start processing them if they could track everyone down to thier retirement homes they now live in.

I guess in an ideal world we should be able to send the $ 170.00 in with the statement that I am a good guy and she is a good girl and we are in love.  Send the visa.   The reality is people do thier best to circumvent rules and so we all must go through the circus hoops we must becuase of it.   If everyone who wanted to visit was a good person and would go home when they were supposed to then anyone should be able to come here but it is not what happens in real life.   I would not be surprised if everyone who does a fiancee visa got married and lived a long and happy life paying lots of taxes to our government that they could do a way with a lot of things.  It is just not real life.   I don't like the way the government does a lot of things but I have to think we don't leave them other options. 

jb, the government likes marriages.  It is the American way.   They also like taxpayers, particularly ones that vote and may vote for them.

[William3rd]

William,
A Mexican citizen who wants a tourist visa, has the same difficulties
as a Russian citizen? ABOUT THE SAME ALTHOUGH MEXICO IS SUPPOSEDLY A MEMBER OF NAFTA AND SOME VISAS ARE EASIER FOR THE WELL OFF. THERE IS ALSO A STEADY STREAM OF IMMIGRANT VISAS COMING OVER. OUTSIDE OF THE FEW MILLION ILLEGALS

Where can I find the surveys and statistics that you are referring to? I DONT THINK I MENTIONED ANY SURVEYS OR STATISTICS. YOU CAN LOOK AT THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE VISA WAIVER PROGRAM, I THINK.

Which are the 'poor' countries on the 'risky' list? OTHER THAN THE VWP COUNTRIES, ALL COUNTRIES ARE SUBJECT TO VISA ISSUANCE. I THINK YOU CAN READ SECTION 221 OF THE INA.

Undocumented immigrants in AZ can obtain driver's licenses. THEY CANT IN CA, THEY HAVE TO BUY PHONY ONES
What is 'EWI'? ENTRY WITHOUT INSPECTION

Citizens who overstay- Couldn't this problem can be solved simply
by strengthening the sponsorship requirement? OVERSTAYS DONT NEED SPONSORS. THEY ARE VISA APPLICANTS WHO APPLY FOR A VISA AND THEN ARE INSPECTED AND ALLOWED ENTRY. THEY THEN VIOLATE THE TERMS OF THEIR STAY.

AS FAR AS THE GOVT INTERFERING- THE SOVEREIGN HAS THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO CONTROL WHICH ALIENS ENTER ITS BORDERS AND WHO CAN REMAIN AND UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES. THIS IS TRUE FOR ALL COUNTRIES WHICH IS WHY YOU NEED A VISA TO RUSSIA.

[jb]

jb, the government likes marriages.  It is the American way.   They also like taxpayers, particularly ones that vote and may vote for them.

 

If this were true, why is there a "marriage penalty" in the tax code?  Married couples have always been penalized with higher taxes than a single person with the same income.  You comment doesn't fly well in the face of fact.

[viking]

I went to a cabaret club (gentlemans club?) a few months ago. Ok. I was slumming that night. Every single woman was from the Ukraine. When talking to them, they were all here on a 'student visa'. When asked what school, or courses they were taking, the replies were quite funny. Not one had a correct name. And how many students can work to the wee hours of the morning and still make classes. Hmmmm. So the point here is that if you have the right connections, and the money to pay for those connections, you too can have the object of your desire here for an extended time without any 90 day limit. But how many of us want to know guys who walk around with a 9mil in their back pocket?

[William3rd]

Hint hint hint-  . There are many semi real "language" classes where all they have to do is pay between 1000 and 3000 a quarter and sign the sign in sheets once a week.

They still have to get a visa over here but. . . . .

[Vaughn]

jb, the government likes marriages.

Married couples have always been penalized with higher taxes than a single person with the same income.  You comment doesn't fly well in the face of fact.

I would think the government loves the concept of marriage based on the higher tax rate....Still, there's just no universal rule.
Where there is a wide discrepancy in their earnings, taxes can be somewhat lower for married people filing jointly than if they were single. And, couples with only one spouse working and earning might even realize a marriage "bonus" rather than a penalty. Hardest hit
(not in total dollars, but as percent of joint income) are the practically disenfranchised, say, a couple who each earn 10K/year.
Their personal marriage penalty could top 4K alone.

Way way back there Turbo wrote:

I enjoy being with her very much but as far as learning new things about her I will be surprised if there is much more to learn.  

Ray, that's a bold statement - fasten your seat belt. You've yet
to see her operate in your home environment, not to mention assimilate to just about everything foreign to her here. One thing
I've learned in nearly four years with Elvira: I'm surprised when there
are no surprises in any given month...

 

[Turboguy]

Vaughn I can agree with the things you say.  I think my statement was not so bold as you might think.  I have seen enough to know how she reacts in a lot of different environments with a lot of different people and a lot of different situations.   I am not nieve enough to think there will be no surprises.   I do think there will be no major surprises.   I have never  expected anyone to be perfect.   For the things that are important to me, she is.  I think the surprises will be more in the catagory of what she does when she gets her hands on my thermostat or other things that every man goes through in adapting to life with an FSU woman or helping her adapt to life in America.   I have had some experience with that and I think I am better prepared than many to handle it with success.  I really feel I know who she is and I think she has a good handle on who I am.   Those sure do sound like words that would not be tasty if I have to eat them in the future but I don't see that happening.   Of course I am also aware that life can always throw us a curve ball. 

[BC]

Let's face it- the government should facilitate face time in the context of
international dating. The government should not impede the process, in my opinion. 
Sure the government should protect us from potential threats by closely scutinizing
visa sponsors and applicants. There would be far fewer K-1 failures if there had been
a proper visa program in place, allowing time for the couple to gain more face time,
in a no-pressure situation.

If I want to sponsor a Visitor's Visa(a new hypothetical visa type) for a gal, why
should the government be concerned? It's my love life, not theirs.

 

Hey I'm sorry- maybe I overreacted.
My take on it is-  If it doesn't work out between a RW and a AM,
it is NONE OF THE BUSINESS OF THE GOVERNMENT!!!!

Is the govt in the business of managing romantic/marriage
relationships? !!   I question that outlook. It scares me
that some would think the govt has some kind of
business in our personal lives.  I want them to
facilitate the pursuit of happiness, and not invent
a strict rulebook.

I find the above views contradict.  It seems, on one hand you want the government to facilitate international relationships and on the other hand stay out of your personal life.

What I have learned over the years is that immigrant and non-immigrant visa standards are quite similar worldwide when it comes down to the basic prerequisites The actual differences are slight and the playing field quite level.

Sure, I balked a bit about the forms and processes involved, but the deeper I looked into these matters I found all can go quite smoothly if you are not trying to shortcut the true intent of the 'system'.  As William3rd seems to state we here are but a very small part of the immigration world and as I/O says we knew the rules and conditions going in.

We all chose a very difficult task so it seems quite unreasonable to put the blame for our failures on government policy.

I submit that if one complies with the letter and intent of immigration laws they will have very little difficulty with the initial visa. I realize there are some AOS problems down the road but that's another topic.

Recently we saw some 'loose rope' reeled in for those applying for DCF.  Those that continue to disregard the true intent of K1 policies should not be surprised if sometime in the future that this avenue is also further restricted to include only military service members and government contractors.

In many respects the government is providing you with the benefit of doubt, but don't expect their patience to be endless in light of large numbers of folks using the K1 loophole for their deviant agenda.

Looking back at the K1 experiences reported here and elsewhere, the basic failure as I see it lies with commitment of the couples involved.  Either one partner or even both lacked commitment.  Take whatever time is necessary to ensure that you both are truly committed to your relationship and prepared for whatever hurdles lie ahead. Don't expect support here or from your government when you clearly put the cart in front of the horse.