hey everybody!

[Jazzyclassy]

As it is a tradition here to break the ice:)

I decided to write a few words, just I heard of this site from my good friend and thought I would pop up here and just enjoy the great discussions:)
I like writing and sharing exchanging opinions with other people

I do not know the site yet but will try to adopt quickly:)))


welcome to my world and I hope you 'll welcome me into this forum:)


have a great day full of bright moments:)

Jazzyclassichka:)

[I/O]

May God protect us all.  The consience of Moscow has arrived.    Well I guess other than welcoming Jazz, I should give something of an introduction.  Jazz, you will find this site quite different from others you have seen.  The number one ethos here is to find and also share good, practical and logical advice with those who are new to the pursuit of international relationships, particularly Russo/Western relationships.

There is several people here about to be married across borders or across oceans and a number who have been married this way for a good number of years.  There is a certain directness here which is quite outstanding in the world of forums.  I have no doubt you will fit in quite well.  Nobody here expects instant agreement, but all expect rational and logical debate.  I am sure you can add to that from the Russian woman's perspective. 

RWD members, Jazz, my fiance' and I met by almost accident and I happen to hold her personal integrity in very high esteem.  I think most will agree that when a person goes far out of their own way to assist another to whom they owe nothing, it is rarely forgotten.  Such was mine and my experience with Jazz. 

Some have tried to imply over time that the Muscovites are snobbish.  I can vouch for the opposite.  When one who is educated, highly employed by a western company and can pick and choose who and when they mix with, will go out of their way to fetch products from a supermarket and drug store for one whom they have never met, simply to extend the hand of friendship is no snob. 

Jazz, I am glad to see you eventually arrive here, but I do fear for our collective virtual ears henceforth. Hopefully the senior members here can keep you in line.

I/O

[Mir]

Jazz

wellcome

So is it true that there are no good men available in Russia and therefore beautiful,educated and well off young girls like you have to look for middle aged foreign men? (Please don't take this as a pun on your relationship,it is a real question?)

[jb]

Jazz,

Welcome to the RWD.

I too am married to a Moscovichka, have been for 5 years now.

Moscow is my favorite city in Russia, for it is the home of some of the world's best and friendliest people. It is also home to some of the world's most beautiful and interesting women.

[CaptB]

Jazz,

Welcome to the board. Moscow is also among my favorite cities in Russia. My wife and I were married in a small town just outside (South East) of Moscow......Zhicovsky (sp).


Capt B

[KenC]

Jazz,
Welcome to RWD.  It will be our gain to have another Russian woman's perspective here to set us straight.  Information form the "horses mouth" is far more valuable than from the other end of the horse, which we find all too plentiful here.   I look forward to your input.
KenC

[catzenmouse]

Information from the "horses mouth" is far more valuable than from the other end of the horse, which we find all too plentiful here.

... and poor Dan never gets a chance to put down the shovel!~ 

Welcome Jazz! We'll look forward to your thoughts.

[SANDRO43]

... from the other end of the horse, which we find all too plentiful here.

Unless it is a horse of a very special, compact breed (hence with a reduced output ), like my all-time favourite (who came up with it originally ?).

[catzenmouse]

Unless it is a horse of a very special, compact breed (hence with a reduced output ), like my all-time favourite (who came up with it originally ?).

That was Vaughn's avatar for awhile. He's to blame for all the half-horsedness around here! 

[Jazzyclassy]

Dear everybody how sweet of you to welcome me so warmly hahaha never thought

Special thanks and honours  to great I/O:)

Mir, Jb, CaptB, KenC, Catzenmouse,Sandro43 thank you:) was so pleased  by such attention:)

 First of all I would like to comment on Mir's post , well it is not actually so , Russian men are educated and very smart in a way it is just there are not enough of this educated guys for the whole bunch of girls in Russia:)))we simply have less men than women , as you all know for 10 girls only like 5 guys are available and in this case they do not try to be educated , knit  and tidy looking, smart , they do not pretend to read books and bla bla bla , they know for sure that without any kind of qualities they will have this or that girl as there is no choice for a girl simply:P (cos she will be alone if she wont choose that loser guy)

And those who are educated , smart and with a certain goal in life oh I beg your pardon they are all occupied for a millions of years before I was born

And if you think that all young  girls are searching for middle aged and old guys you are Wrong!:) and at the same time I do not blame anybody and being online for quite a while I understood my mistakes  that one should never judge people by their preferences, yes I confirm there were times I did not understand young girls having old guys as a hubbies but once again if it is 10 years gap it is ok if it is like 30 or something like that , still we have no right to judge, but what I realised is that woman needs peace , stability comfort and simply to be loved and  experienced guys can give that to her, they will appreciate and evaluate her and I met a several couples who suit each other so so so perfect and amazing that I just struck myself, telling Love sees no age in some way and it is none of my business which age gap they have as long as they are happy and bring positive to each other and other people , I am so glad for them:)

My boyfriend is my age so I hope everything will be great with us in the future:)

[I/O]

And those who are educated , smart and with a certain goal in life oh I beg your pardon they are all occupied for a millions of years before I was born

Lucky them...!!!   Jazz, I suggest it would be fair to say that Moscow is one of the more affluent areas of the FSU, so I assume the attraction of a better economic situation in the west is less relevant to the women from Moscow than perhaps some other areas.  Therefore, is it simply lack of numbers of suitable men which maintains the interest of some Moscow women in Western Men or is there more to it than this? 

What I am digging for here, is what do you think gives the western guy a shot at the Russian and particularly Moscow women, because it is obvious these women are not exactly desperate for a better life, when they have a very fine lifestyle right there at home.  Surely for a woman to pack up her life and leave all behind in order to start a new life in another country, this man must have some very special qualities to catch her attention even before she falls in love with him.

There was another topic where a few items were raised which may make a man unsuitable for this pursuit, form the inside what do you think are the "Must Haves", before a Russian/Moscow woman will be prepared to give him more than a passing thought. Please feel free to be blunt and direct.

BTW Jazz, please don't include that he needs to be a recently graduated ATC.

I/O

[Mir]

Jazz

Thanks for your prospective. I think this article echos your thoughts:

Dating Industry Offers Escape From Loneliness
Created: 03.11.2006 14:00 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 14:18 MSK

Ivan Marchuk

Imeyesh Pravo

The latest census has revealed that as many as 50 percent of Moscow residents are living their lives in solitude, without burdening themselves with any long-standing commitments. But many still dream of finding a significant other.

Last year the Center for Demography and Ecology at the Demographic Forecasting Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences released the final results of the 2002 census. Sadly, it transpires that nearly one-half of adult Russians had no spouse at the moment the census was held, the magazine Imeyesh Pravo wrote this month.

Anatoly Vishnevsky, head of the center, says that in the early 2000s, out of 1,000 Russian women of all ages 175 had never been married at all, 180 were widows and 110 were divorced. In Moscow the situation was somewhat better, with 219 women who had never been married per 1,000, 101 widows and 106 divorcees.

The situation with male residents is more optimistic but only because men are fewer. Russia has 1,147 women for every 1,000 men.

At first it may seem that solitude is the deliberate choice of many Muscovites. The average age at marriage has risen over the past years. While in the early 1990s people tied the knot at the age of 21 to 22 these days brides on average are 23 y.o. while fianc?s are 25. Moreover, the public opinion on institution of marriage is changing.

According to statistics cited by Natalia Markova of the Institute for Socio-Economic Problems of Population, today 78% of Moscow residents back the idea of living in an unmarried partnership, 10% shun any commitments and favor free love and only 12% are for building a traditional family.

“For women to get married there should be men willing to tie the knot,” says psychologist Boris Novoderzhkin. “But Russia suffers an acute shortage of such men. To begin with, men are fewer; secondly, the economic situation sows certain fears in them. For example, many fear they will not be able to support their families. The same is the reason why women are unwilling to get married. Emancipation is flourishing. The woman thinks first and foremost of her career — again out of fear of being left penniless. The higher is her income the tougher are her requirements.”

Meanwhile both men and women suffer from loneliness. A recent survey held by the public opinion center ROMIR reveals that as many as 60% of Moscow residents said loneliness was one of their main problems. Each third call received by psychological aid hotline is made by people who have no-one to talk to, to tell about his or her problems.

Psychologists claim that people in large cities have ceased making acquaintances with each other. Generally cautious and tightlipped, most confine themselves to a narrow circle of childhood pals or colleagues.

That is why so many people have affairs at work. “All ’serious’ girls I met after graduation were my colleagues, and my wife is no exception,” lawyer Andrei Vassiliev says. “There was no other place to meet someone. You spend ten hours a day at work and then go home. On weekends you meet your university pals. As a result, the only place to meet a girl is your office. Even more so as there are things to discuss.”

But some still meet each other the old-fashioned way. “Just like before people meet through friends, in places where like-minded persons meet, such as gyms, theaters, movies or even through online forums,” psychologist Yelena Golunova says. And although it is commonly believed that marriages are made in heaven sometimes they happen on the Web. A popular website for motorists, www.auto.ru, was a venue where five couples found each other. “Polls reveal that some 70% of Muscovites do not object to getting acquainted on the street or in public transport. The main thing is to make the first step, to take the risk,” Golunova says.

Moscow is believed to have several locations where a girl has good chances of hunting down her Mr. Right. Those are all sorts of VIP parties, opening ceremonies of fashionable boutiques, restaurants etc. For example, a famous Moscow marriage broker catering to the affluent clients, Pyotr Listerman, recommends posh restaurants Vanil, Galereya, Maria and Vogue Caf?, as well as restaurants operating at luxury hotels as best venues for finding a date.

Those who are not very sociable and do not have time to spare may turn to an online marriage agency or look for a new love in personal classifieds. Others may attend parties, organized by specialized firms for people to meet each other. Founder of one such company, Flirtanika, Valery Bocharov, launched his project three years ago, after his friend had parted ways with his wife and asked Valery to help him meet someone new.

The friends decided to throw a party for their acquaintances and urged their guests to bring their own acquaintances along. The party proved a success and people started asking Valery when the next party would take place. So he held one more party, and then another. These days Flirtanika hosts parties each week, attended by 80 to 120 guests. The ticket costs $30. Dress code is casual but no sportswear is allowed.

People attend the parties to find a wife or a mistress. One guest, Bocharov recalls, was looking for a secretary. They all look perfect during interviews the client explained but he said he wanted to look at them in real life. A professor of a Moscow university met his student at one of Flirtanika parties, Valery recalls. “Sometimes people intentionally conceal their income. I remember two men coming here wearing T-shirts with funny inscriptions. Then I was told that one of them headed a large Russian firm. He did not want women to cling to him because of his money, so he concealed his identity. He took his deputy along, in order not to feel bored,” Valery says.

Finding a wife or a husband through a marriage agency in Moscow costs $500 to $1,500. Respectable agencies advise their clients on how to prepare for the first date, order a table at a restaurant for the future couple and call both afterwards to find out about their progress. Women are offered services of professional hairdressers and cosmetologists. Applicants are required to fill in a detailed questionnaire, indicating among other things their bad habits and past criminal record (if there is any) but few agencies look deep into their clients’ past. Therefore, there is no guarantee against fraudsters, although agents claim they know a fraudster when they see one…

Moscow also has a variety of dating clubs, many of which have existed for decades, hosting dancing parties that are very popular with the seniors, for example. Also there are clubs for making friends with people who have the same interests or hobbies, or even religious affiliation. Charity Jewish foundation runs the club Mishpuha, which stands for “family” in Yiddish.

RE: http://www.mosnews.com/feature/2006/11/02/homealone.shtml

[Bruce]

Mir, nice article which gives us current insight into the Moscow dating scene.  Welcome Jazzyclassy!

I tend to think that the chance of a Russian woman staying married to a guy who is within five years or younger then her age for ten or more years is less than if the guy is between six and fifteen years older.  I also tend to think if the guy is between fifteen and twenty years older the chance of the marriage lasting ten or more years also is higher.  These are not based upon statistics, only my encounters with divorced Russian and Ukrainian women over the years.  It was uncanny that the majority of the men they married were the same age or a few years older, they were  married young and the guy tended to either run off after a child or quickly the marriage ended in divorce.  I have also met one Russian woman who was a mistress of an older guy for twelve years, from age sixteen to twentyeight.  I also have heard of many single Russian women happy to become mistresses of older men.  Any comments???

I do not mean to create controversy, but this seems to be a good thread to discuss these points.

[Jazzyclassy]

     I also have heard of many single Russian women happy to become mistresses of older men.  Any comments???  do not mean to create controversy, but this seems to be a good thread to discuss these points
   

Well a lot of comments:)
Here you go

The classification of girls who are happy to be mistresses of old guys , carried out in a classical way with jazzy elements:P:)))))))

There are such women but again not the majority  of them, there are some women like that who obviously had no father in their childhood or had a very bad relationships with their fathers I connect it with some psychological problems of some girls. This is one category of such girls who are happy to be the mistresses of older guys.
 And by having this older very mature man they just picture him unconsciously to be their father who will always protect, give great wise advice, financially support her and be always there for her and wont actually leave her ever , as he is old and he should be happy being with her so young and fresh and so unique.

Second category simply just want money , they are scammers so to say, when any other better prospective moneyoldbag comes, she immediately leaves old one for another maybe even older one but who has much more money, I am sure you know whom I am talking about such kinda girls are everywhere... unfortunately

Third category of girls are mostly genuine they were just struck by love and really they found older guys more understanding and very true soulmates and amazing listeners and they just feel so comfortable with them , the most important for such girls is to be understood and to find a soulmate and to be loved and to truly love themselves, they do not fall for superficial youngsters, such category of girls are unique , if you met her hold on to her , cos you will never meet such girl again........

Fourth category I guess it is the last by now in my list:P these are girls who just simply do not want to be alone, they just want to have a person by their side , so they do not care about his age , they just feel that they can not find the guy of their age so they just go for old guys in order to create a family and be happy.

There are also other points why young women are together with old guys sometimes, cos old guys always want young meat , they need new sexual games and healthy sexual life and they search for a potential mother of their kids , it is animal instincts which people can not control , so sometimes it is not only  women's initiative to be with old guys.

I would like to say that this is my personal vision of the topic and of course every person sees it different 

As I already claimed it on the other forum I want to grow old with my partner and I want to learn the world together with him

and I also want to point out that I do not judge girls who are with old guys , just personally me I would better think twice before  committing to such relationship, my point of view is influenced by my up bringing by my family  and I do not know maybe with time I'll meet the situation where  I would need to be with old guy, but I strongly hope and pray that it wont happen to me:))

Jazzichka , who knows classical relations:P:P:P

[Shadow]

Welcome Jazz,
Having a Moskovicha as fiancee I have enjoyed the city and seen a lot of the 'normal' life outside the tourist areas.
While Moscow is not as far from Western Europe and the US as other places in Russia, there still is the Russian mentality and way of life. Which can be enjoyable if you manage to be open minded about it.

[Jazzyclassy]

      there still is the Russian mentality and way of life. Which can be enjoyable if you manage to be open minded about it.
                     

Oh nobody even argues about mentality it is a different question:)

thank you for your greeting me by the way:)))

I thought  mentality and why young ladies are happy to live with older guys are different things:P:P

God save you from thinking that all young girls have the mentality of being happy living with old guys

that is just nonsense

If you say such things about Russian mentality Can be enjoyable  if  one is open minded, then you know nothing about Russian mentality , so how can you make statements:)

Russian soul is very mysterious enormously kind and always ready to forgive at least has the ability to forgive , it has wide options  very many -sided soul , if you think you've been to Russia a couple of times and you already know the mentality , you are completely mistaken...

I can not tell if I know this or that mentality of any nation, I can only depict some specific features but I am ready to learn more about their way of thinking ,

I never claim I know everything about Americans, English people, french , Spanish or German,  that takes a lifetime to know about their mentality!

[Shadow]

I guess living with a Moscovicha that manages to endure me and still love me learns me a lot about Russian mentality 
And to be honest, somehow I might have a Russian soul.... I found it easier to understand people and relate to them in Russia as I find in my own country. 

[Jazzyclassy]

       I found it easier to understand people and relate to them in Russia as I find in my own country.             

You are lucky on  one hand but on the other hand that is so sad not to understand  their way of life of the people  in your own  country and to feel foreigner in your own country
but well I just think cos you are with Russian woman you adopt to her but generally it is very difficult to know , understand and feel the same about the other culture, you must be very lucky person:P

[Mir]

Or maybe Dutch are very difficult to understand

[Dar]

It's great to see another clever girl here!
I discovered this website and found it very interesting, really different from others. I'm sure u'll enjoy spending ur time there.

U'r wellcome!

[Gator]

Jazzichka,

You are very wise for a young woman of 23.  In regard to your comment,

God save you from thinking that all young girls have the mentality of being happy living with old guys

I agree.  In fact, I would think very few young girls (your age) would even consider an older man, much less date one. 

You listed four categories of such women, and indeed each of these happen.  There is a fifth category:  a smart, inquisitive woman who is endeavoring to learn about life and discovers that a particularly experienced (i. e., older) man can teach her wisdom, not just information.   These relationships happen and usually last no more than a year or two.     

Then there are women who are motivated by most if not all of the five qualities.  And their relationships with an older man can endure if true friendship and love evolve and if the man continues to satisfy all five qualities.

By the way, do you consider a 30-yo woman to be young, to be a dyevushka?  Does it matter if she is a mother?

[Jazzyclassy]

Thank you Dar very kind of you , I hope so too 

To Gator:)

Thank you for greetings , the same very sweet of you

Adding things to my  comment

     God save you from thinking that all young girls have the mentality of being happy living with old guys

                 

  yes and plus they  all dream about young beautiful , brave princes on white horses with kind heart and who is living in the Castle , that's funny but in almost every cases it is true!

About your question can 30 y.o be devushka  -yeah for sure  that is still very very young and even if she has a baby , now all the prejudices are fading away with the thing that if you have a baby that means you are a woman , technically yes, but if you look so young ,fresh and possess yourself as a young lady -you are always devushka no matter what age you are:P

I am glad that a lot of men understand why young girls are with them ,we can look again at the categories:P , that men have no special illusions.
To my mind this is a temporary phenomenon maybe in 10 years old women will be with young hot fresh guys hahahahah

we never know.........

[Mir]

Gator’s fifth category defines the ideal of Platonic love.
The Greek philosophers admitted their attraction to youth and beauty; however they thought that instead of letting lust take over the relationship the basis of relationship will be the teaching of knowledge and wisdom to the youth. They believed that such a relationship is more satisfying then a sexual one. Of course the gender that attracted them was male rather then female and there has always been the argument that such love is not possible between a man (and a much older man by definition) and a young and pretty woman. 

[Nat]

Jazzyclassy, just wanted to say "hi!" and support Dar's comment:

It's great to see another clever girl here!

Indeed, it's really pleasant to read your messages
PS: Wow, it appears that there are a lot of us, Slavic girls, here

[LEGAL]

Gator’s fifth category defines the ideal of Platonic love.
The Greek philosophers admitted their attraction to youth and beauty; however they thought that instead of letting lust take over the relationship the basis of relationship will be the teaching of knowledge and wisdom to the youth. They believed that such a relationship is more satisfying then a sexual one. Of course the gender that attracted them was male rather then female and there has always been the argument that such love is not possible between a man (and a much older man by definition) and a young and pretty woman. 

According to ordinary notion about love, Platonic love is love separated from sensual attraction. If you turn your attention to the origins (Platon's works)you will see Platon never was against sex. He was against to turn Love into  sexual simplicity.
Love,  in Platon's opinion, is bridge that connects the physical, sensual with the  spiritual - exalted.
Eros, according to  Platon, is not pretty angel. Eros is  archaic God. When there was the Chaos in the world Eros put Universe in good order - levels, going from Spiritual Heaven  to Physical Earth. Love has special forms, which are answering the  levels.
Primordial Love is inconceivable Strength capable to put all in good order, unite and give the form and life.
Levels of Love:
Love is the Wisdom (Idea)
Love is  the Energy
Love is the Life on all levels.
Love, according to Platon, bigins from Idea and then finds sensual expression, uniting the Mind and Sexuality.

Olga.