Kuna's Ukraine Trip Report

[ScottinCrimea]

So now you get to experience the real Ukraine!

[tim 360]

A really excellent trip report Kuna and a fun read at that.  Keep it coming. tim360

[jb]

I/O recently brought up and excellent proposition regarding the girl spending time in my world too... That's something else to consider.

With all due respect to the esteemed I/O, I disagree.  You can only get to know her on her turf. she will get to know you on your turf.  She will be the fish out of water on your turf, not natural, not comfortable, not the real person.   Since you are paying the bills I recommend you spend more time on her turf.

Read CaptB's comment for a better explaination.

[I/O]

With all due respect to the esteemed I/O, I disagree.  You can only get to know her on her turf. she will get to know you on your turf.  She will be the fish out of water on your turf, not natural, not comfortable, not the real person.   Since you are paying the bills I recommend you spend more time on her turf.

Although this really shouldn't be discussed at length in such a great report thread, for the record, I'd like to clarify my view of this.  I have never said that her being on your turf is any great advantage in getting to know her, although there can be some helpful aspects.

My contention of the importance in her visiting your country and preferably your location is on the basis of simple "Fair Play". It gives her the opportunity to see you in your natural surroundings, meet your friends and thus develop an informed opinion for her self which is unclouded by your sales pitch.

The second point is that, although yet to be proven in my case one way or another, I theorise that it will be helpful to her when she arrives permanently.  Example: Much of the light discussion now between mine and I is centred around what she would like to do in this or that room of my home in order to improve or perhaps even "Russianise" it a little.  She now has a picture of my work place, she knows where and when to go to get this or that. 

All of my arguement for this is simply based on helping her to assimilate.  I happen to think it is vitally important, but that is very much opinion.

I/O

[jb]

The point I would make is this, I/O,,, you've already made a decision,,, Kuna has not. 

He needs to learn a great deal more at this juncture, that's all.

I still think he needs to spend more time in the FSU at this point, bringing her to AU would be counter productive at this point.

[Michelangelo]

Kuna, these guys can debate it for hours...but here's my prospective, and it's recent, and it's from real-life experience...

Spend time with the girl in her home country, and in her hometown.  Meet her parents.  Meet her friends....

BUT-that is just part of the equation...she might indeed be a very different person in your home environment.  There she will be under stress, and will likely be under confusion.  Even though her English might be good in Ukraine, in AU the accent will be strong and native speakers will use more slang and speak much faster. AND--the drivers will be driving on the WRONG side of the road!    LOL

So, it's not whether you should spend time with her in Ukraine, OR in your home...

You have to have BOTH before you know for sure who she is as a person.

[jb]

M/A,

What's your point???

By the time she meets all your requirements, she will already have been a wife for several months....

What you are suggesting is just not possible.  At least under our visa laws.

What I'm saying is that a man must have a good feel for how well she will adapt before she sets foot in your homeland.  This is only possible with lots of face time in her country.

[Admin]

Guys,

Let's give Kuna the respect he deserves and allow his excellent T/R to continue without thread drift.

If something he writes sparks a controversy - take that controversy to a new topic. Please.

- Dan

[jb]

Dan,

There is no controversy in my mind.  Kuna is embroiled in a mess of his own making.  Too many good looking women wanting his body.

 
I remember those days...

[viking]

JB

You can remember that far back?  Man you have some good brain cells. Now, about your new avatar......

Kuna

Keep the flow going. You seem to be on a roll, enjoying yourself and you make for good reading.

[jb]

Now, about your new avatar......

Don't worry about my avitar, she's doing well.

[jb]

I have her in three sizes,,, toy, miniature, and standard.

[Michelangelo]

M/A,

What's your point???

By the time she meets all your requirements, she will already have been a wife for several months....

My point is that in this strand, and other places this week, some posters are blowing smoke, saying that if the girl is fine in her own country, she will be fine in yours.  Your home turf presents an entirely different set of challenges to her...and there will be many adjustments she will have to make.  I've talked to dozens of men married to RW, and except for a rare few, all their wives had a long period of time in making adjustments to their new life here.  Yes, the basic character and goodness of the person remains steadfast; however, you'll see emotional extremes on your home turf you never saw on hers. What I'm saying is that each step is a challenge, and a newbie should be prepared for the long haul.  What Kuna is experiencing now is actually the easiest part of the process, or journey.

JB~ that avatar is unnerving 

Kuna~ we are nervously awaiting a report on Ms. C!  LOL

[CaptB]

Kuna,

Good trip report....mate! There seems to be something in part of your writing style......that is also part of mine. Now I know what it is...................DOTS................................................. ..
.......................................................................... .................................................

Stick to your guns. Meet the women you were going to meet. As strong as you feel for Ms. D........you may be equally.......or more so.......surprised by Ms. C. The nice thing about you visit to Ms. C.......is that you are meeting her in her hometown. If feelings turn out to be strong for both women (there is the pesky "decission" word again).........I think meeting miss D......on a second trip......on "her" hometurf..........may help in a decission. In any event.......you don't really need to worry about such things.....until you have been "home" awhile. It is amazing how that "hometime" reflection..........affects your clarity of thinking.
For me it meant letting one woman go......I had strong feelings for.........but realized.....ultimately.......she was not the one. It also meant realizing that all the things I was feeling.......for the "last" RW I met......were the same.....whether in Russia......or at "home".................................................................and who is now.........my wife.

Have fun on your trip.........and save the mental anguish........for later..............at home


Capt B

[CaptB]

Michelangelo,

I am one of the "smokeblowers"......I guess. I would never disagree that if possible.....it would be nice to have your prospective future Mrs. vist you on "your" turf........BUT.....this would mainly be for "HER" benefit. This will not help "you" much......to determine the person she is........only being with her in the environment that shaped her.......will you know who "she" is. Guys who duscuss her "changing" after landing in your country.......are the real "smokeblowers". If you did your homework.......took all the time necessary getting to know each other......I don't think a woman who is "genuinely" affectionate (real...not imagined) to you......and displays all of the positive qualities most of us are looking for......will ever change her "true" nature........in another environment. I have met too many other couples over the years that mostly bears this out. I think a woman dramatically changing (negative traits) after landing in your country will be the product of:

1)  Very good acting on her part............and inattentiveness......on your part.

2) How she is treated......by you and others.

3) Your failure to aknowledge red (and pink) flags.......when at least others could clearly see them.

RW/UW want to be/live.......with their man. If you have chosen a "woman".......and not a "girl".........she will do whatever it takes to adapt......and adapt quickly. Will there be some growing pains......adjustments.......homesickness..........yes. But these have nothing to do with possitive vs negative traits (showing up because of a new environment). If you have done your work......and she is the "real deal" at home.......she will be the "real deal" in her new home.................adjustment pains aside.

Appologies to Dan, Kuna......and others......for off topic rant.........but I was "compelled" to address the comment.


"Blowing smoke."......as usual................   Capt B

[jb]

JB~ that avatar is un-nerving

It's just a picture of a typical RW/UW,,, what's your problem?

[SANDRO43]

It's just a picture of a typical RW/UW,,, what's your problem?

For the benefit of newbies, you should specify which end is RW, and which UW .

[viking]

Too high maintenance. She will need 2 pairs of shoes at a clip. Not to mention a groomer in addition to a hair stylist.

[Kuna]

Gentlemen gentlemen, some patience please!

OK, this may not be a highly detailed post because I'm running on some limited time.

A couple of things though..

My trip from Kiev to Cherkassy

I was going to take a private car at a cost of $80, then was told it was going to be $140.

I thought "stuff that!" so I decided on taking the bus and just getting my guide to help me arrange the bus.

I'd heard som bad things about the bus so I called another guide and got a quote of $200, then a call back from that guide a little later saying he was tired and confused and his quote was $150. 

Yeah mate naah but naah mate thanks yeah!

When my guide arrived on Thursday morning to help me arrange the bus tickets (the day before the trip) he had a driver waiting (I would have though we would have just got a taxi to the bus company) so after feeling a little "stung" from the Train station episiode (big cost blow out in relative terms) I said to him "Wait, before we go anywhere let's go for a coffee and a talk".

So, off we go down to O'Briens and I ask him for a detailed quote:

How much for the driver to take us to the bus, wait and bring us back?;
How much for you to come to the bus and come back?;
How much will the bus ticket be (Approximatley of course)?;
How much vaiation is in this quote?

I already knew approximately how much the cab ride would be from the bus terminal in Cherkassy to the hotel because my friend told me a range.

I added it all up and it wasn't a lot less than the $140 second quote so I decided, after taking some private counsel from some members here (and wives) that I would take the private car.

Now... I never knew a 4 cylinder car could wind up so much speed, brake so heavily, bounce around and drift all over the road without coming off the bitumen once.

We were stopped 3 times by police (twice for speeding and once for overtaking going up a hill) and the one time HE stopped to talk to the police they searched the car and claimed there was something wrong with the passenger door and had a long "talk" to him inside the police car.

He says he wasn't fined "Only Protocol" but he is either the sweetest talking erratic driver on earth or he paid them off.

He was a nice enough guy and I'd ride with him again (because we made it here safely) but I wouldn't put anyone I loved in a car with him.

So...  scary as hell... and I'm serious about that!

I've got some pictures but I'll have to wait until I can use my own notebook instead of sitting at someone's office desk...  though from what I saw yesterday I should see if I can find her and see if she's single. 

OK, dinner with Ms Cherkassy, and a bit of a recap.

You might remember a while ago i asked a question about religion in Ukraine.  She was the girl that told me about her Sunday church visits etc.

We met at my hotel and I wasnb't surprised at all by her looks.  Maybe her face was even prettier than I| imagined but everything else contained no surprises.

I was surprised that her English wasn't as good as I expected however she had explained before that it's difficult for her to speak English if she is tired and I have to admit it was a bit of an effort for her to come to see me straight after work.

We sat in the upstair lobby of the hotel for an hour and a half or so waiting for an appropriate time to go to the restaurant.

I'd brought some books for her on my city, koalas (her favourite animal she says) and Australia in general.

We sat and looke dthrough the books and had a good time.  She asked some good logical questions about my city, my family, etc.

When it was time to go to the restaurant we started walking even though it was pretty cold.  I wasn't sure I would have enough cash for dinner so I asked about credit cards and she told me she didn't think the restaurant would take them.  During our walk we were checking out cash machines trying to find one that took my card type and eventually we had success.

So, off to the restaurant it was.

I was pretty happy to see that the restaurant wasn't only traditional Ukrainian it was also set in a replica "historical" Ukrainian home.  We went in and found our table and I asked her to order us delicious traditional Ukrainian fare.

Dinner was lovely!  I really enjoyed it.  I'm not sure about everything that we ate but I can tell you that everything came out in relatively small portions and there was lots of variety.

She asked me what I wanted to drinka nd as I'd remembered (that like Ms D) Ms C said she "very much liked Georgian wine but it is too expensive to drink" I'd seen the menu and found the wine page and nothing on there was TOO expensive so I suggested we have Georgian wine.

Now, every now and then it's worth having a punt so I added, "Is this a sweet wine, I like sweet wine sometimes".  She had a very big grin on her face and said, "Yes, this is sweet, I very much like sweet wine."

Now.. normally I'd drink a big ballsy red, a shiraz, something that's going to "handshake your tastebuds like a bushy at an outback camel race".  The wine was fine though, not my first preference but if it made her happy, I could be happy.

Conversation over dinner was stilted but I kept in mind that she was tired and Engoish was her second language. What did concern me was that she was freqently looking over my left shoulder.

There was lots of hand touching, many sweet looks, lots of comments about being happy I'd made the trip, but all in the same it was very formal.

Towards the end of our meal the table behind us got up to leave and when they were putting on their coats one enormous bloke turned and looked at me as if I'd just run over his dog.

After they left I asked her if she knew the people at the table and she said "just one man, he works in my building at work, why?"

"Because the guy with the mostache looked at me and gave me a smile."

"Yes, that's him."

Well, right then her phone rang and she got up to answer and just as she stoo I looked through the window to see the four men from "that" table walk out the front door and stand in the courtyard.

I decided that it would be a really good idea to watch them because if any of them were on the phone it might be a good idea to make a quick exit stage left and avoid the worst possible outcome for a dinner with a new friend in a far away and strange place.

I'll say at this point that Cherkassy's street are quite dark and it has none of the International feel that Kiev has.  I Kiev I felt safe at all times but I'll admit some of the dark streets we walked down on the way to the restaurant had me touching my wallet every few minutes and keeping my hands LOOSELY tucked into my pockets incase I needed to get them free quickly.

So, there they were standing in the courtyard, smoking and talking, all of them looking at least 6'2" tall and at least as heavy as I am.  As they stood there I was thinking to myself, "If worst comes to worse and there's no safe exit from this "pub" take the biggest one first and hardest because you probably won't get a second chance."

They walked off and Ms C came back to our table and explained it was her sister.  We joked about her asking, "Is he OK? Are you alright? Are there any surprises? What time will you be home?"

I looked back out the window and couldn't see the men, and then looked at Ms C and could tell she was very tired.  I suggested we made a move so I helped her with her coat, put mine on, moved my hotel key to my right hand coat pocket and went to the bar to pay the bill.

I'll make a quick comment here about the bill.  We had a big dinner with lots of small dishes, two glasses of red for me, one for her, juice and water for both of us. When I got the bill it was only 152H, or about $50 Aussie dollars.  That was MUCH more reasonable than I expected.  Since being in Ukraine I've been struggling with the number of small notes I get so I just pulled out two 100H notes and after some chatter between Ms C and the lady behind the counter she said to me, "You gave them too much," turned and started walking out.

What??? Where was my change?

I decided that we'd make a mental note of that for later!

Anyway,  off we went towards the door, me with my hand in my pcoket, key in hand, wondfering if "those giants" were still outside.



Guys, I have to go now... she'll be here in a few moments so I'll have to update you on the rest of the night when I get back from our day out.

Hav a good day now!   

(no spell checking and a strange keyboard so who knows howmany typos are above... hahahah!)

[Mir]

Yes semi-sweet is what all of them like

I cannot believe Kiev to Cherkassy by bus is $150!! Right now you can travel from Kiev to Simferopol in Cirmea by air for $42, I don't know what guides you have but it just shows that using guide does not always save money.
Also someone I know recently travelled by taxi from Borispol airport to Kremenchuk (a bit further down the road from Cherkassy) and paid $120.
Otherwise it looks like you are having fun

[ScottinCrimea]

     I agree with Mir that you are getting jacked around with the prices, and the typical practice of increasing the price after the fact seems to be in play.  I would keep this in mind if you choose to use this guide again.  He's sizing you up and adjusting the price accordingly.
     I wouldn't be so worried about the dark street.  I can walk all over, dark or light and never have a problem, and I see women and children doing the same.  It's much safer than any big city in the US so relax a bit.
     It sounds like Ms C had the prearranged call set up that would give her the oportunity to excuse herself for some sort of emergency if things weren't going well.  If that's the case, it's not a good sign.  I also worry about her distraction with the gentlemen at the other table, especially with the fact that she didn't speak with them.  It suggests to me that she wasn't so happy to be seen with you, but then again maybe her co-worker is just a big boar and she was afraind he would come over and embarass her.  Just some thoughts from the outside looking in.
     Good to see that you found out that in most of Ukraine you can get a good meal for a very reasonable price.  I think in Kiev you were steered to the foreign hangouts and paid accordingly.

[Bruno]

     I agree with Mir that you are getting jacked around with the prices,...

Not specialy... from my own experience, in Ukraine, they act like Turkisch people... specially with tourist... the announced prize is only the starting price for negociate... usually, 200 or 300% highter that for local people... if your are god in negociation, you can lower price for around 50% but never hope to reach the ukrainian level... they know you are foreign and that you have money...

One time, i have negociate a trip from Nikolaev to Odessa ( more of 150 km ) for only 1 bottle of Vodka and one good bottle of Georgian wine... unfortunaly, the trip was very long... the driver was stopping the motor at the stop of each hill... allowed gravity to make his work !!! So, negociate... but don't be to much "greedy"....

So, Kuna was not "getting jacked around with the prices"... simply he was not able to open his month for have better price... when i read his trip report, he is enough passif when it is related to money... he find some price to much high but never discuss/negotiate these price...

[Mir]

I hope your driver was not spending what you paid his as he drove (the vodka and vino)
I agree negotiate is the word.
Even without language.
Start with skolka? and then nyet with hand signs etc. repeated several times till a sane price is reached.

[Gator]

Privet mate,

I continue to be impressed by how well you express the emotions of these meetings and encounters.

There are probably five different explanations for Ms. C’s behavior; it would be mere speculation for me to say anything now.  Such puzzles mystify a man frequently when meeting these women.  Much of the mystery derives from the cultural and language differences.  You seem relaxed and patient, allowing time to reveal more before jumping to conclusions – exactly the correct approach.  Some men are not comfortable in a foreign situation and infer more than there. 


You were building suspense about a heavyweight match between you and the Charkassy version of Vladimir Klitschko (actually, four of them).    The mere fact that you are able to post suggests that you did not bruise your knuckles too severely, so I guess everything went fine.

It seems that your adrenalin and testosterone has elevated a couple of times when encountering UM at bars and elsewhere.  UM and RM are not elegant.  Their manner can be rather imposing, especially that of the “flatheads” (bearish bodyguards for the rich).   And when they confront each other, it is not rapid paced, animated and rhythmical as with the Latinos, but deep-voiced snorting and posturing.  Mainly for show, however.

That sweet wine is vile, yet many UW love it.  I have compromised in the past and shared a semi-sweet with a UW, which helps to cut the salo and all the other fats in Ukraine dishes.  Although there are a few good dry Georgian wines, yet still below Penfold’s middle shelf. 

I imagine you are getting several PMs about the prices charged by your guide. I just added another.

[Michelangelo]

We were stopped 3 times by police (twice for speeding and once for overtaking going up a hill) and the one time HE stopped to talk to the police they searched the car and claimed there was something wrong with the passenger door and had a long "talk" to him inside the police car.

Unfortunately, I have had similar experiences.  Once in Kharkov my driver was stopped twice by police, just driving across town!  Once for speeding, and once for trying to hit a pedestrian. Later, I got in the habit of telling the cab driver I did NOT like to drive fast.   It helped~most of the time  LOL

Now, every now and then it's worth having a punt so I added, "Is this a sweet wine, I like sweet wine sometimes".  She had a very big grin on her face and said, "Yes, this is sweet, I very much like sweet wine."

Every girl I dated from the fsu liked sweet or semi-sweet wine, and I like mine dry.  So I finally stopped buying a bottle and just started ordering by the glass, to make us both happy.

Conversation over dinner was stilted but I kept in mind that she was tired and English was her second language. What did concern me was that she was frequently looking over my left shoulder.  There was lots of hand touching, many sweet looks, lots of comments about being happy I'd made the trip, but all in the same it was very formal.
I'm not surprised, Kuna.  Even though you wrote her a lot and she was your favorite going in, it's just different in person than by email or phone.  Perhaps she is just shy....hope so.  But the bloke at the next table does concern me a bit, so be on guard, mate.

And good luck!