Who created Scamming?

[Son of Clyde]

Ok, there is no answer to this question.
Scamming has been going on since the beginning of time but when did scamming begin in the FSU?
Did some freewheeling American man cruise into the FSU tossing around a wad of money?
We are quick to judge scammers, but if you look at behavior modification, some Western guys are actually encouraging this behavior.
If a guy is a sex tourist and the woman knows that if she gives him sex he will in turn lavish her with expensive gifts, is this completely her fault?
Some very decent guys are scammed because the scammer does not differentiate whether the victim is a nice guy or a jerk, he is another victim.
I was driving to work trying to think when this began in the FSU?
Was it the fall of the Soviet Union and a few Americans went on a tour and started spending a lot of money?
All it takes to snowball is one guy and one woman. The woman tells her friends it is easy money. Pretty soon many women are posting profiles on marriage sites. Some agencies are legit but some are scams. A guy tells his friends they can have a great time with the women in FSU.
I am just thinking it is a two way street. If the guy is not behaving properly he could be adding fuel to the fire.
I hate to see decent guys scammed and I in turn hate to see women's lives ruined if they are unjustly accused of scamming.
Finding a good woman in the FSU is something to be thought out and planned.

[I/O]

I gotta admit that I have sure had my fill of scamming topics on these forums, but for about the 4000th time, a lot have people have got to get it through their heads that the very vast majority of scamming is not undertaken by women. 

The group of 200 (Not one woman among them) arrested in Yoshka Ola (Spelling..!!!) some months ago had a cash flow going from men rept off the MOB sites of $100 USD per minute, 24/7/365.  The lone wolf women out there cutting guys up for peanuts are miniscule by comparison.

If you look at where the real money is flowing, you then get the clue as to the origins.

I/O 

[Mir]

Scamming is a type of fraud.
So if the opportunity is there some will succumb to the temptation. Others who are more criminal minded will use much more elaborate scams.
Of course in the context of this board it started when well off western men started to look for women in FSU.

[William3rd]

The first incidence of scamming that I know of personally occurred in 1997. The scammer and agency were pretty open-Grigoriy Green of Flamingo Agency.

I received a letter and photo from a really cute Russian girl. When I answered, asking for more information, ol' Grigoriy responded and told me I had to deposit $50 to continue communications with the girl.

I actually had 3 or 4 emails with grigoriy telling him that he could have 50 after I was told exactly how the woman had found me. His emails were pretty hard sell about how I would lose the future love of my life.

My research showed that flamingo was a translation service and not a marriage agency. Last time I looked them up, they were delivering flowers

I didnt send the 50. . . .

[Jack]

SOC unfortunately don't have the time to go into the scamming I saw from the early days to present. It will probably take one or two full chapters of the book I hope to write someday.

But very briefly, in 1992, 93, 94, 95 and 96 were the real days when almost any American despite his age and appearance could get that beautiful 9, 9.5 or 9.7 model type Russian woman. It was everywhere. Women who were 7.5 and 8's were also having many older men seeking them and they jumped at the opportunity just to leave what was at the time a pretty rough and wild Russia. One such good example was the nice insurance man from Winchester Kentucky who met and married a young woman from Moscow almost 30 years younger than him. It took him five years before he knew how bad he had gotten scammed. Any guesses out there?

About 1997 and for sure 98, as the internet first began to take hold, scamming changed big time. Two main reasons. (1) The fine, fine ladies, the 9's, 9.5's, were realizing from the many efficient catalogs out there they were getting their choice of the top men. These ladies were getting 2000-3000 letters. And I did say letters. So they were picking the most handsome of the wealthiest guys, with age not being to much of a factor but a little.

I personally began to see the Green card scam as a whole begin to change and lessen in the late 90's and for sure within a few years of the turn of the century. Don't get me wrong their are still Green card scammers but not anything like it was compared to the early and mid 90's.

And  (2) of course the second main reason for the change, the internet. The internet for the most part introduced the money scam.

I have many, too many, personal experience during the early years of internet scams. Still see two of my early scammers still working today. Lubov Baranova from Chernvisti and Julia Petrova from Lugansk. What two amazing stories here. Luba was smart, she sent to Anastasia and European Connections some photos of some of the most beautiful women in those catalogs, as well as Club Prima, Cherry Blossoms, Scanna to name a few. Baranova knew what she was doing. Anastasia and European Connection didn't catch on for years and Baranova kept those beautiful photos of women coming.

With Julia Petrova I did not directly deal with her but one of the scam women she had taught very early on. Julia started scamming in Lugansk about 1998, again just as the internet was taking hold. Man she was writing a lot of men, they were sending money. She had such a volume of men she had to hire a helper, then another helper just to keep up with the volume of e-mails, letters, trips to Western Union. At one point one of the helpers Julia had trained saw the magnitude of this and she left Julia and went on her own. She was successful, ....oh my, ..my Tatiana. Left me waiting at the Borispol airport for three hours like a fool. Tatiana was also successful and couldn't handle everything herself so she had to hire help.  Julia Petrova's other helper saw this and she left Petrova and started her own scam out fit. Now it's about 2000, 2001 and Lugansk has three very efficient scam operations.

This is how Lugansk got started and earned the dubious title of scam capitol of the FSU. Today that titled, only in my opinion of course, goes to the scam triangle of Yosh-Ola, Kazan and Cheboksary. The amount of scam coming out of this region today is much more than I ever saw coming out of Lugansk.

It's an interesting story how Julia Petrova got caught.

Julia was doing well. She had two flats that she owned outright, paid for cash. Nice car, all new appliances. One of the flats was big and nice and in the center. One flat was a little more modest. And when men came to Lugansk to see her she was always in the little, modest flat, the one that could use new appliances. The Black widow, as Julia became known, really lured each of these men into believeing her. She was very, very attractive and she had no problem using, offering sex to get all she could. 

Julia would have two to three men visiting her a month. She began to remodel her small flat and at this time had to work out of her nice flat. So one of her victims is in Lugansk and it's late one morning and their sleeping in late and Julia tells him she's going to go to the store for a minute and she'll be right back.  Julia leaves this guy in her flat while she goes to the store. Julia also forgot her little black book. Uhh-ohhhh.

He later said he was amazed by what she had in her flat, the wide screen TV, new remote air-conditioning, heating, Jacuzzi, washer-dryer. As he was snooping around he found her little black book and he opened it. Most was written in Russian, he saw his phone number. He saw other men's phone number and he began to write them down.

When he returned to the states he began to call these numbers one by one. He asked one guy if he knew Julia Petrova and the guy said yes, she was his fiancée. This guy told the other guy she was his fiancee also and he had just spent the last  week with her. This one guy couldn't believe. The guy who called said, yea, as he began to describe the flat, "and she has this new big-screen TV" and the other guy said he knew that, he bought it for her. So this guy called another man and another man and soon there were several men it was discovered who were also writing, seeing, engaged to Julia Petrova.  And this is how she got caught.

[Son of Clyde]

I started this topic because I am realizing it is not always the woman who is scamming. it could be that guy who writes but never visits or visits just for sexual fulfillment and nothing else. It is more than just the art of scamming.

[groovlstk]

Some very decent guys are scammed because the scammer does not differentiate whether the victim is a nice guy or a jerk, he is another victim.

A scammer does not fail to "differentiate whether the victim is a nice guy or a jerk." A successful scammer could care less about your intentions, you're simply meat to her.

[wxman]

Is this the same Julia Petrova? This one lives in Odessa.

http://www.premier-v-marriage-agency.com/index.php?uri=catalogue/Odessa/Julia_Petrova.htm

[jinx13]

 I would have to think the mafia has a lot to do with the creation of scamming. Organized crime is always on the lookout for a sucker, and the target doesn't get any bigger than a lonely westerner with a fat wallet looking for his "other half".

 Let's face it guys do a lot of stupid things for a pretty face, and with the internet it just makes it that much easier to lure men into scams. All those  photo's of beautiful women, the hope of meeting them, romancing them, marrying them, having sex with model type women. It's easy to see how a Russian man or woman with no prospects could find it very easy to fall into the scammer life, we are just such easy targets, the temptation is just too great. Forget about one girl asking for visa and airfaire, think about an organized crime group that knows what they're doing and are very clever...it's like stealing candy from a baby.

 I also tend to believe the lack of religion during Soviet Russia has a lot to do with the moral fabric of these scammers. They didn't grow up fearing God, they feared the government and got by anyway they could during difficult times. In the U.S. and it's mostly Christian population we were taught that stealing, lying, and cheating is wrong. Scammers think, "better you than me" and do not have the guilty feelings associated with these crimes.

 New guys, don't let all this scare you, just remember the tablets of stone, you can't get scammed if you don't send money to someone you never met, it's pretty simple. Well, you can still get scammed, but at least you will have seen a pretty face first! 

[Mir]

Well it is not pleasent when you travel all the way and the lady does not turn up.
And it is possible that plan B,C,D don't work either.

[Gator]

Jack, 

I appreciate your candor to admit you fell for a scammer and waited anxiously for a woman who had no intention of ever showing.   You had experience and you are a wise man, yet it happened to you. 

Most of us want to believe.  And if we were not that way, we would frighten away those RW with a good heart and sincerely interested in us.  Do we have that much to fear?  Not if we use common sense.

Somehow No Scammers

Almost 5 years ago old, I wrote over 50 women and 67% responded.  Of those only one ever asked for money.  I feel that all others were good women.  I took risks.  For example, I sent $300 to two women to meet me in the big city (that was when monthly income was $100-150/month).   Both showed (both by train with new cell phones), and both stayed with me for several days.  I met 5 other women in that first round and all were good women. 

More than Luck

Yes, I was lucky because I did not know about forums such as RWD.  Maybe I bought attention from two women with money.  Yet, there was more than luck and money.  Hopefully it will not seem arrogant if I list for the benefit of newbies what I avoided initially and subsequently eliminated:


-  Did not speak English (contrary to what I did three years later). 
-  Provocative photos, showing breast size, wearing a bikini, etc.  (one tall slender Volgagrad woman showed up with 39D and I never had a clue from her photo).  I believe most men instead let their little head do the thinking.
-  Younger than 30 yo (two exceptions were well worth taking the risk).
-  Glamorous photos with movie star looks; I like earthy women and not prima donna (yet, my ex-fiancee was gorgeous and one very experienced man sincerely said she is the most beautiful RW he had ever met). 
-  Did not reply to what I wrote, or wrote short boring comments. Perhaps they had a busy life; however, I was not going to travel 7,000 miles to meet someone who did not try to know me. 
-  Started talking about her difficult life; eliminated not because she would probably soon ask me for money, but because I want a cheerful woman. 
-  Mushy letters (too soon, we had never kissed).
-  I felt no connection after a long correspondence.
-  And finally, those not approved by my bisexual ex-girlfriend who knew her women. 

My "No Shows"

I did have two "no shows".  One got busy with her work and could not take the time to meet me (imagine if she were the only one I came to meet).  Another was bad work on my part.  I went to meet her in her town Yalta, called upon my arrival, called again when she was one hour late, got a strong male voice and stupidly did not hang up but asked for her by name, and heard what must have been a long stream of Russian profanity (something about $hitting in my mother's soup).  She called a few minutes later saying "Filipp, I can not come" (click).  I failed in our telephone calls to uncover that she was not serious or at least had a boyfriend. 

[SANDRO43]

I would have to think the mafia has a lot to do with the creation of scamming...I also tend to believe the lack of religion during Soviet Russia has a lot to do with the moral fabric of these scammers.

As you probably know, Mafia originated in Sicily, and that is a VERY devout region of Catholic Italy. I do not think atheism and scamming are much related. How about Nigerian scammers, incidentally ?

[wxman]

Scamming has no boundaries or affiliations. It's universal in all cultures. Some people will take advantage of any situation to make a dollar, ruble, grivna, etc. Just look at all the infomericals on television right now. No basis for their claims, and they flim flam people to make millions every year. Those infomercials make the MOB scammers look like amateurs.

[Jooky]

Here's a little story I posted elsewhere about a year ago. Enjoy!

Here is the story of how one young woman became a scammer.

On a wintry afternoon Sexy Olga sits at coffee with a friend, complaining about her dreary life, her boring job, and how difficult it is to find a good man, a man with money. Yoshkar-Ola is a dead end town. Her friend has an idea. She's recently heard of a marriage agency that can introduce them to men from overseas: healthier, wealthier and better men who can take them away to a land of sunshine and opportunity.

So off they go. A few studio photos are snapped and profiles are put into catalogs and posted on the net.

The letters pile in.

The men are not as advertised. Most are older and out of shape slobs. Some are perverts. Some are desperate with their hasty declarations of love and loyalty, which they make not only to Sexy Olga, but to her sexy friends. Yes, these women compare notes.

These men certainly have money though, and they offer a better life. They shower Sexy Olga and her friends with frequent and lavish gifts. They send cash. They invite them on romantic vacations. They promise the world.

A few seem to be decent men, decent enough to meet.

She is swept away to Turkey by a nice older man. She's making a compromise but he is gentleman and very generous. He courts her by taking her shopping and buying her whatever she wants. They arrive in Turkey and the man drops his gentleman act. He demands sex and when he doesnt get it he whines, moans, and worst of all cuts off Sexy Olga's gift supply. No new leather jacket. No exotic perfume.

Sexy Olga is furious. She enjoys what the man has to offer, but she does not  enjoy the man. After experiencing his desperation and tantrums, any hint of attraction is gone. Worst of all, this man has the nerve to think he deserves something in return for his gifts. Sexy Olga is not for sale.

A younger gentleman comes along, also with gifts and promises. Off they go to the French Riviera. This man is more fun and more attractive, but once they arrive to the beaches in France he goes to far. He insists that Sexy Olga join him in threesomes with the local girls. His purpose for coming to Russia becomes clear. Hes on a sex vacation, and Sexy Olga is no better than a prostitute to him.

A year goes by and Sexy Olga's life has improved. Shes been on exotic vacations. She has fancy coats, expensive jewelry, and a bit of cash in hand, but she does not have a good man.

The men that seek her attention are no healthier, kinder or better than the men back home. They are simply wealthier, and they arrive with the attitude that they can buy her love and devotion. The men back home did not have this attitude.

She gives up on foreign men. To her they are far worse than the men she could meet in Russia, and she has no respect for them or their culture. But she does not give up on their money.

Sexy Olga and her friends begin to notice a pattern.

The most desperate of men fall in love after but a few letters and these are the men most likely to offer monetary aid and send fancy gifts. They are also the most hesitant to come to Russia and prefer to invite them overseas instead, offering to pay for all expenses.

So Sexy Olga begins to accept and encourage these offers. Her casual mentions of her poor lifestyle become deliberate. She mentions sick relatives and with sympathy comes more money. Instead of waiting for the overseas invitation she insists on it.

Before long Sexy Olga is bringing in $25,000.00 a year tax free in a time when her friends and family make less than $100 per month.

The word gets out.

Her new boyfriend gets involved. Her friends follow her lead. Their friends join in on the fun. Translators at the agency catch on to what shes been doing and get in on the business. Photographers at the agency studio hoard away the sexiest photos and begin to write foreign men. Scam agencies are formed.

And Yoshkar-Ola begins to earn its reputation as the capital city of scammers.

[William3rd]

Anybody seen any documentation of this mafia connection? All the arrest reports seem to revolve around individuals and small groups of con artists. . . . .

[wxman]

Scammers only exist because there are gullible people. And these gullible people are always looking for a quick fix instead of doing it the right way, which in many cases is not very easy.

[Rvrwind]

Scammers only exist because there are gullible people. And these gullible people are always looking for a quick fix instead of doing it the right way, which in many cases is not very easy.

And therein lays the truth in two simple sentences.  :brightidea: Nothing more needs to be said.

[Jack]

wxman, not the same Julia Petrova.
Here is photo of the Queen of scam, Ms. Julia Petrova.
By the way interesting side note to Petrova I did not disclouse earlier.  Shortly after Petrova got busted she kind of disappeared. I figured she was going underground for a short time and would re-emerge as different person, different photos so I was watching hard for her to reappear in her new disguise. One year, two years, no Petrova. I thought maybe she had retired.  Well what happened was a few months after she got busted she got married. She married a local guy and had a child. The marriage last about three years and then last year Petrova got a divorce from the local guy and well, you can guess what has happened, yep, Petrova is back!



William, and I agree with you. Anyone who thinks the mafia has a lot to do with the creation of scamming probably does not know what they are talking about. I won't saw it's impossiable but in my opinion at most less than 2% (just in case their might have been one or two isolated cases).

I've seen a lot of scam and scammers. I have never seen a single scam or scammer that had anything to do with the mafia.  I think their are two reasons for this. (1) The take is too small but the main reason (2) is that the goverment of Russia, and Ukraine, have told the mafia, you don't mess with tourist, especially American tourist. This was told to me directly by a member of the FSB during my personal tour of the old KGB building in 1998. The mafia knows they have it good today and all they have to do is stay within the bounds and rules set to them by the police and goverment.




Hey Gator, how you doing?  Gator this incident with Tatyana at the airport happened 10 years ago and yes I was still quite wet behind the ears and learning. I don't see me, knock on wood, waiting three hours at anymore airports for any scam woman. With any suspect women now a days my associates buy the plane ticket and give it to the lady once she get's to the airport. Then I get the call that she has boarded the flight and that is when I head to the airport (or train station the next morning).

By the way Gator, the list you made for the benefit of Newbie's I agree with 100% ( with exception of approval by bi-girlfriend  )

[Son of Clyde]

Too bad there is no magic guide for reading women's minds.
Julia Petrova is an attactive looking woman, I would not say great looking, but attractive. Her features are rather intense if you look carefully. The dark eyebrows, very long dark hair, tattoo on her arm and the extremely long fingernails.

When you mix two cultures it can be impossible to detect a scammer. The personalities of Eastern and Western women are very different.

I can usually see signs of AW who are not very honest people but a RW would be a real challenge.

I corresponded for six months with my wife and still I had no idea what to expect from our first meeting. I am very glad I did not visit her after only corresponding for a month or two. We knew a great deal about each other from the letters, phone conversations and sms messages.

[wxman]

Jack,

Perhaps the Ukrainian and Russian governments could go one step further and ask the mafia to take care of the scammer problem. Of course that might eliminate some of the tourists. I hate catch 22. 

[Son of Clyde]

My intention in posting this thread was to give my opinion that men can just as easily be scamming Russian women if they visit with no intention of marriage. The sex tourist for example. The men who write but never visit. It is a two way street in my opinion. We tend to see mainly the male view as the ones who get scammed. It can be man or woman.