Prenuptial agreement - yes or no?

[FunIndieBloke]

Hi guys, I was talking with a mate of mine about this RW thing, and he was of the opinion that you get her to sign a prenup before taking the plunge, in order to protect yourself, as he heard of someone who married a RW, then she divorced him as soon as she got her British passport.  Well I would like to believe that this is a small minority of the RWs out there, he was telling me to be careful.  But still, how many of your married guys got a pre nup?  How do most RWs react, for those who brought it up?

I guess that if you feel you need a prenup, you should not be marrying this woman, but one's impression could be wrong...  How long did most of you guys spend getting to know your RW before you married her?

Thanks,

[catzenmouse]

I guess that if you feel you need a prenup, you should not be marrying this woman

I'd say that about says it all.

Didn't want one, ask about one, or use one. If you don't know her well enough to trust her then there are bigger issues to be dealt with.

All, of course, IMO.

Ken

[Mir]

So what will you put in that pre-nup? That she will not divorce you when she gets her passport?

Frankly I don't think pre-nups are worth the paper on what they are written.
Of course if you are an ageing rockstar and marry a 19 year old model then pre-nup can be of value since the court will not believe that she married you for your personality. But if you marry a RW and she wants divorce from you then the fact that you forced her to sign that she gets nothing if she asks for divorce will not protect you, at least not in a British court.
What I would suggest if you are so worried is that you live with your FSU wife in FSU for the first 2 years and only then move to UK.
Getting divorced in FSU is a piece of cake (or so I am told)

[I/O]

How long did most of you guys spend getting to know your RW before you married her?

Quite some time and we ain't married yet.  As for the rest of it, Ken summed it up.

I/O

[Dar]

Hello!
Good, u started this subject, I think, its very important question.
I'm a lawyer in Ukraine and I specialize on Civil Law. My husband is American, we married last summer. We didn't sign any kind of agreement. We truly in love and we trust to each other. But...
Ur mate was completely right. A lot of scammers around and most of girls, who join to the MA, have a goal to move abroad and to get the citizenship there( don't be disappoint of that, u may be that one lucky guy which won't end up with that kind of woman).
A quick story. I was sitting in MA with my husband one day, waiting. An agency employee was answering a phone call. She spoke to a lady which wanted to join the agency. Here those questions, she was answering to: what kind of men write to u? how wealthy they r? what city is best to live in? how quick usually they offer to marry? I translated this to my husband - he was shocked. Me too.

And what exactly do u want to determine in antinuptial contract? that she can't leave u after she gets the permanent residence, yes? that's silly bcs if she wants to do that she will do. And when u offer her to sing that kind of agreement, she, at least, be very surprised. She may think, u don't trust her. In particular me, I don't mind to sign an agreement, but there must be taken into my rights, as well.
As a lawyer, I can tell, that in Ukraine/Russia the legal culture of people very low and institute of marriage contract was brought in only a few years. Its unfamiliar for people here, they are not accustomed to sing agreements like that.

Another thing. For a lady it also scary to marry a stranger. I heard a lot of bad and sad stories about girls who married a foreigner. My husband was very unhappy when I told him what some other people around keep to tell me. That wasn't about him in particular. So.. I even insist on the making of contract bcs it more security for a woman too.
I know my husband well, respect him and love so I am not considered to sign a contract with him but that is a good idea to do that for both contracting parties, for sure.
  

[viking]

Seems to me the whole purpose of a pre nup is the protection of assets. If a man has many, or is wealthy he may want some protection that his new wife does not make off with all his assets and leave him high and dry, not to mention his children, if any, from a previous marriage. It basically outlines what she can get in the event she divorces him soon after marriage. Some of them are quite generous. But it can also outline what she can get for HER own protection, to ensure she is not left high and dry either, in the event he divorces her. Most people want to believe that their love is true and they will be together forever and that nothing else matters. Most people who worked hard to achieve a small fortune are least likley to put themselves in a position that will allow all that to just disappear. On the other hand, if all you own is a beat up 20 year old car, then who cares. Generally speaking.

[Son of Clyde]

I had thoughts of doing a prenup but the more time I thought, the worse it sounded. Marriages are to be built on trust as Ken has indicated. I am not mister moneybags either,  so there are no yachts or summer homes to worry about.

[Kuna]

IMHO...

1. If you don't know her well enough to be sure of a successful marriage you shouldn't be marrying her. and;
2. If you're not emotionally capable of understanding if you know her well enough you shouldn't be marrying her.

Number 2 if difficult because you may not KNOW you're incapable until afterwards!

My feeling on the prenup?  I wouldn't have one because I think it sets a poor foundation for a marriage BUT if I had lots of assets and a low income it would be difficult to NOT consider it.

My income is "OK" so I know if I did lose half of my assets I would get it back! In Oz I don't think you can contract away your support obligations for your children, and neither should you anyway!

Kuna

[DKMM]

This is a multifaceted question and different situations apply to guys on here.  First of all, there are differences between American, UK, and other European courts point of view on these things.

My family requires that I get a prenup if I marry a FSU girl, so its something that I can't view as a choice but more like a how.  I think someone on here once recommended a good way to do it, like get her a better lawyer etc.   Now I don't think I should get one in Russia or Ukraine, but if we get married there I'm not sure we have a choice (or if they exist there, Dar?).  But also if we do marry there we can divorce there and that's always a better idea than here.  It all depends on if her motive is to A fleece you and stay in the US or B fleece you and return home.

If you are asking whether a prenup is necessary you probably don't need one, as long as you aren't some old guy marrying a girl half your age.  I highly recommend putting your assets in trust before you are married.  Roll your 401ks into an IRA!!!!

Nobody is planning on getting a divorce but they do happen.  A prenup is more important in situations that you to avoid an incentive for a girl to marry you to take your money.

[Mir]

DK

When you divorce it does not matter where you got married.
The law of where you divorce will be applied.
Also how come you let your family decide what you should/should not do? (like have a pre-nup)

[Gator]

how come you let your family decide what you should/should not do? (like have a pre-nup)

I am guessing that DKMM is involved in a family business.  There are many reasons to have a prenup.  Protecting a family business is certainly near the top.  When your assets are liquid and solely in your name, you can do whatever you wish.  When you are involved with a family business, there are many reasons to shelter the business from attack by a divorcing spouse and her/his pack of lawyers.

P. S.  In Tokyo awaiting a flight.  Very litle sleep, but still going.

[Turboguy]

You are in Tokyo waiting for a flight to Bangkok and I am in Bangkok waiting for a flight to Tokyo. Sorry our schedules were no a bit different. We both would have enjoyed meeting you.

[groovlstk]

...and he was of the opinion that you get her to sign a prenup before taking the plunge, in order to protect yourself, as he heard of someone who married a RW, then she divorced him as soon as she got her British passport. 

This single, very simple sentence can resolve so many similar angst-filled posts:

Know your woman and make sure she knows you before you do something so serious as propose marriage.

[William3rd]

The laws of the state of residence at the time of divorce apply unless your prenup specifically states what jurisdiction will apply (however- you need to be living in the jurisdiction(state)when you are signing the prenup).

I remember a guy trying to apply the laws of China to his prenup in a divorce a few years back.

Judge- have you ever lived in China?
Dork- uhh- no
Judge- was your wife from China?
Dork- Uhh- no.
Judge- Have you ever even been to China?
Dork- Uhhh- no.
Judge- Have you ever resided outside of California?
Dork- Uhhh- no.
Judge- Well, welcome to California Family Court!!!!

[Son of Clyde]

It's probably not a bad idea to see a marriage attorney if you want to protect your assets. The attorney can advise you as far as a budget and how to establish bank accounts. Since with every budget you should pay yourself first, it is not a bad idea to have an emergency stash.

[Nando]

Even if you know your wife well and are "well married" some years later you can be facing a divorce with disaster financial consequences.
This has nothing to do with the woman nationality. It doesn't matter if she is Russian, American, English or Portuguese. I have seen many cases in my country where the guy in the end says "why didn't I married within the split assests regime?"
I use to answer "because you were young and naif".
If I don't care if she is rich or poor why should her be worried

I know this comes from a guy who deals daily with money. Money affects many people and changes its personality.

[jinx13]

IMHO...

1. If you don't know her well enough to be sure of a successful marriage you shouldn't be marrying her. and;
2. If you're not emotionally capable of understanding if you know her well enough you shouldn't be marrying her.

Number 2 if difficult because you may not KNOW you're incapable until afterwards!

My feeling on the prenup?  I wouldn't have one because I think it sets a poor foundation for a marriage BUT if I had lots of assets and a low income it would be difficult to NOT consider it.

My income is "OK" so I know if I did lose half of my assets I would get it back! In Oz I don't think you can contract away your support obligations for your children, and neither should you anyway!

Kuna

 Kuna, I think you are a stand up guy from what I have read from you, but this post you made sounds like it came from a guy who has never been married and subsequently divorced. It's a romantic vision to think you "know" your lady, and she would never be unfair with you, let me just tell you that when it's over, it's over, and all bets are off. That woman you fell in love with and that in turn loved you with all her heart can turn into someone you don't "know" anymore....trust me on this one.

 I knew my ex very well, we had a 7 year relationship, with 3 1/2 years of marriage, I would never, ever, EVER believe she could be as vindictive and greedy as she has become now. I just came back from court yesterday, so excuse my mood, but I am still paying this woman even though she is remarried and they both make a VERY comfortable living. It's rediculous, but mostly my fault because I didn't put a clause in the marriage settlement saying it ends when she remarries, yeah I'm an idiot, but you can be too, it's easy.

 Put your romantic vision of marriage aside guys, it's a document, a piece of paper that binds you to that person, and that includes your finances. Protect yourselves, get a pre-nup.

[BC]

I am guessing that DKMM is involved in a family business.  There are many reasons to have a prenup.  Protecting a family business is certainly near the top.  When your assets are liquid and solely in your name, you can do whatever you wish.  When you are involved with a family business, there are many reasons to shelter the business from attack by a divorcing spouse and her/his pack of lawyers.

P. S.  In Tokyo awaiting a flight.  Very litle sleep, but still going.

Gator,

You mention some scenarios here where a prenup might be recommended by a legal advisor.

If you really need one your lawyer will let you know.  If you have to go find a lawyer to discuss prenups chances are you don't need one. 

PRENUPS ARE NOT AN INSURANCE POLICY FOR BAD CHOICES IN INTERNATIONAL MARRIAGES. 

Get that into your head folks.

Good prenups that stand in court will give your ex at least as much as applicable law does.

I think one would have a very hard time finding a lawyer to prepare a prenup for an international marriage that will GUARANTEE it holds up in court regardless of the conditions.. 

Sure, go spend 5k to have a great prenup prepared.. and later spend 15k trying to defend it.

Still sound like a good deal?  Heck for a short RW/AM train wreck you can probably settle for 10k to get her back on her feet at home and a one way ticket...  If she wants a GC, what the heck, just negotiate for the best terms and make it easy for her.

[Dar]

" I think someone on here once recommended a good way to do it, like get her a better lawyer etc.   Now I don't think I should get one in Russia or Ukraine, but if we get married there I'm not sure we have a choice (or if they exist there, Dar?)."

Yes, they r. Any lawyer who specialize in Family Law will do prenup as well.
But, really, it won't protect u from the wrong choice like BC have told here. And... what if u but not a women will decide to divorce??
U night never heard of stories I know about that. Western man take a RW woman, marry her and then... one day he decide, it was not right choice and what he does? - he just send her back home! with only ticket in one way... but if they have children he wants to keep them. She can't do anything.... and kids r happy in their country. But what about mother? he just doesn't care bcs he was thinking only about his interests. Some guys more kind - they sending children with their mom... those stories r sad, but it happens, often.

[prince_alfie]

I don't like pre-nup agreements... Protection of assets suggests something a little too sinister for my liking. Of course, I think that if one makes a bad choice, the consequence ought to follow swiftly.

[Mir]

Like said before: A pre-nup only works if it is obvious in court that the basis of marriage was material rather then love/commitment.
So if a 19 year old beauty marries a 90 year old millionair who dies on the wedding night then the pre-nup would protect his other inheritors(to some extent).
If a FSU woman wants to marry a US man with some as they say jingle in his pocket.The man insists on a pre-nup.Later on he wants to divorce her or she wants to divorce him then she can present herself as a vulnerable,naive young lady away in a foreign land. The courts will not give a toss what was written in the pre-nup.

[viking]

I never had a pre-nup. Don't know if I ever will. But this document does form a basis for anything legal in the future. Two people agree to something, and divorce courts will look at this to form an opinion going forward. Also, a doc like this can establish what a woman may receive if the guy throws her out. He agrees to, say, give her a certain amount of money based upon the length of marriage. It can be a two way street. Protection of his assets and protection for her future. Most men simply do not have the 'jingle' to warrant one.

And Jinx, you are right on. Men who have never been married, and divorced, cannot understand how the love of their life turned into something totally different. Not all the time, some divorces are amicable, but some can be brutal.

[BillyB]

Some of you guys are stereotyping pre-nups as people stereotype men who seek foreign wives. Not good. Some men say pre-nups are a joke for men who don't trust their woman. I guess those men can guarantee their woman's character and integrity. In real life, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Don't ever think you're smart enough to choose a woman to where you could guarantee you won't divorce. Even if two people start off great, people change over the years. Some get better, some get worse.

If you are in a family business or with others, you have an obligation to protect the people who helped you build the business. That's not only wise, that's what a good man will do.

Jinx had a good point but even if you marry a good woman and you get divorced, a vicious/good attorney and the courts could tear all you built apart anyway.

How do you ask your fiancee to do a pre-nup and she'll love and respect you more than ever? A pre-nup done by a man with integrity will not only protect his assests, he would generously guarantee his fiancee something too, maybe even more than the law would provide as long as his business is guaranteed from being destroyed. He could also increase her share based on length of marriage and/or other factors. The stereotpye is people think pre-nups are always a one way street favoring heartless, selfish, greedy men who don't trust their woman.

With a pre-nup, two people know what they're getting going into the marriage and they'll know what they're getting if they want to leave the marriage. With money issues aside, the two people can focus on marrying for love. Penalties can rack up with each case of infidelity according to some of those Hollywood pre-nups.

DKMM, if you do a pre-nup with a foreign woman, it must be done with two attorneys, one for you and one for her. You'll also need a certified translator no matter how good you think her English is. Do not sign a pre-nup near the end of 90 period for the k-1. A good attorney in divorce court would claim she signed under pressure.

[DKMM]

I was just trying to give an example of where a prenup is necessary.  Gator is close to being right on the money as always.  I know I'm getting one and my lawyer does too.

The general consenses out there is if you have assets you are bringing into the marriage, those need to be protected.  If your net worth is negligible but you earn a lot of money, then good luck with that prenup.  I think once your married, you split everything you earn even if she sits at home all day.  So do the courts for the most part. 

Also, I'm not in a community property state so it will be not so difficult for me to protect what I'm bringing into it, namely my interests in the family partnerships.  And there are other ways of dealing with that, even if she tried to take a share.  We could allocate the taxes to her and give her no distributions if she wanted to play funny... but I'm 99% certain that I'll never divorce so its really just a formality. 

[Bruno]

... he was of the opinion that you get her to sign a prenup before taking the plunge, in order to protect yourself, as he heard of someone who married a RW, then she divorced him as soon as she got her British passport...

...But still, how many of your married guys got a pre nup?...

My ex-russian wife have ask the divorce the same day that she have receive the Belgium nationality... i was without pre nup... and i will never make one in the future...

Our marriage have happen in Russia but the divorce was in Belgium... following standart rule writen in the law : all assets before and after marriage are personal, all assets during the marriage periode are shared...

If you marry a GCG like me, a pre nup don't really protect you... they have own strategy for suck the maximum of you... by example, almost one year before she ask the divorce, we have hire a new appartment... but when she have sign the contract for us, she have say that she was already divorced ( so, the contract was only on her name and i was trow out of the appartment by police )... during all the time we was together, she have keep all the bills from everything we buy ( TV, video recorder, washing machine, computer, etc )... since she was with the bill, law have say that everything was from her... justice have never take care that she can't buy everything she claim to be her since she was without income ( never work in 5 year )...

If you own your own house before marriage, it is not a problem in Belgium... but if you buy it during the marriage, pre nup or not, 50% of the value is for the wife, same if she have never give a cent... about own business, here in Belgium, it is something separated from familial life...

In short, if you are not lucky and marry a GCG, a pre nup will never protect you... first, so women know better the law that yourself, she will build long term strategie for suck your money when the right time is coming... the best protection is read forum like these ( by example, the Maxx topic )... Since the beginning, it was red flag with my ex-russian wife but i have not see them... by example, she have always refuse a marriage at church ( and she was very religious ), she have never accept the adoption procedure for her child ( so i have not right on the child that i have grow up )... if i have know these forum in 1997, i am almost sure that i have never married her...

Some here seem to think that pre nup procedure are the same that with local women... not true... say that you have your lawer who ready the document... she sign it... and when the divorce happen, she say that she have not understand what she sign, that you have say to her that it was a document needed for marriage... yep, you are busted... the pre nup will be not valid... be sure to have it translated in Russian, having her sign that she have good understand... same so, not sure that you will be able to save yourself, specialy with American where false DV is so easy...

In my case, the divorce expense was only 52 euro... but the moral damage was high... i have become suspicious of any women... assets is one thing... but a wrong initial choice of lady lead to other damage that money cannot repair... time loose ( 7 year ), trust in women, missing of a child that i have grow up during a long time, etc...

Pre nup are not needed... was is needed is make the right choice in the beginning... think with you brain and not with your lower brain... inform yourself ( these forum is a right place for it )... take your time, never hurry, a marriage is a life decision...

In any case, for our US friend, don't count on the US laws... the US laws are make for help ladies, not you... i am for equal right between women and men but it seem to me that US give MORE right to ladies that to men...

For any  people ready these forum, you are on the right way... the best protection is education...