Prenuptial agreement - yes or no?

[Gator]

A few disjointed thoughts:

-  A good prenup must take care of the woman.  Also, a RW should have two attorneys:  one from the jurisdiction where she will be residing and another from Russia to help explain this complicated process.  She should sign the prenup before leaving Russia.

-  Yes, a man should know his woman, yet women change and life changes as well.   It would be great to be able to predict the future.  It would also be good to know the attorney whom she will retain if and when there is a divorce. Some are bloodsuckers and know how to play the game, a game that is beyond control. 

-  Where can I sign up for the 10k and back to Russia?  Few RW would want to return home, so count on her staying and you having the responsibility to make sure that she gets on her feet here.

-  To be fair, a prenup should cover not only divorce but what she receives at the man's death as well.  After all, most of us are many years older than our RW, and women outlive men anyway, suggesting we should marry women older than us (now there is a concept).  Rather than leaving your money to your children, don't you think you should provide for her too.

-  For men with minimal assets,  I recommend that you not sign a pre-nup.  Many of these RW are smart and determined.  In a few years she probably will be a better income producer than a man without assets, and if the two divorce, she may be paying alimony to the man.

[Globetrotter]

If you have substantial assets, you need to keep the love and the money seperate.  (Just ask Paul McCartny if he now wishes he had one!)  By marrying, you are forming a corporation as the law sees it, and giving power of attorney to your wife.  Sure, you want to marry the right girl, and hope she is marrying for love, but it's not always the case.  Plus people change, finances change, situations change, feelings may change.  No pre-nup?  Just which court of law do you think your wife will use should you divorce?  The Russian court where she gets nothing, or the American court where what she gets would be substantial?  

Pre-nup in Russian written by a Russian lawyer, and translated in English, and the same by an American lawyer, signed by both here as well as there, many months before the marriage is what we will do if we pull the trigger.  We discussed it and agreed it's the right thing to do.  Sure, it's still contestable, but I'd rather have one and be able to defend it than not have one and "throw myself on the mercy of the court."

OK, you marry.  You own the house, and a Ferrari, an AC Cobra, and a grocery getter.  Five years later, she wants a divorce.  The judge says, what was your house worth 5 years ago, and what's it worth now?  Please pay her half the difference in past versus current value.  The cars...even though they are yours, where did the money come from to maintain them?  Oh, the joint checking account?.... she has an interest in them, and you owe her appreciation on them as well.  That's what happened in my divorce, and I won't let that happen again.  Even my 67 Shelby which I'd owned since I was 19, was in limbo, as she claimed ownership to that as well.  I did OK, but it took 3 years for a judge to decide, and it was 3 years of Hell.  If you lay it out beforehand, the pre-nup is fair to both, you've eliminated years of legal wrangling.  Again, just ask Sir Paul if he now wishes he had one!!!

[prince_alfie]

I would never base my idea of marriage on Paul McCartney. First of all, I think that he loved that Heather gal for her looks and she was a cad anyways.

Prenups don't even protect the financial interests of the man or female. Personally, marriage may be ripe for abuse. But I would make the right choice the first time again and walk through the valley of relationships very careful because jumping in 2 feet first.

Divorces are messy regardless of whether it is amaciable or not. Seriously, I think that if less selfishness were at the heart of the situation, then this issue would not come up in the first place.

[Globetrotter]

Prince, I have absolutely no idea of what you're trying to say.  And, yes, the idea of a pre-nup is to protect financial interests.  Anyway, we have both discussed this and are in agreement. 

If you have ever been married before, just remember how much you loved your wife when you married.  Now ask yourself if you feel like the lucky one who will be part of the 50% who will stay married.  Kind of like Russian roulette...If someone said there was a 50% chance of being electrocuted when you turned on the light switch, would you do it?  Better to have a small insurance policy, don't you think?  Simply put, if you have lots, do what you need to do.  If you have little or nothing, no need.  Anyway, you do it your way and I'll do it mine.

[WmGO]

Has been quite a while since I felt motivated to post something. This topic motivates me to make an LP style post. Shouldn't because it isn't polite. But I will anyways.

It is questions likle this (prenup yes or no) that reveals who the reall dumba**s are: catzmouse, mir, kuna, bc, princeallfie.... and who the folks with brains and backbone are:mando, dkmm, jinv, billyb, globetrotter, etc.

Reality #1 is that if you don't have significant assets you probably don't need one. This applies to 90% or more of WM seeking foreign brides. If you fall into that category - don't make a meely mouth mushy idiotic wimpy post about "it's not romantic", "you should know you partner", "it won't hold up", etc (of course, even if you do have assests it would still be stupid to say these things - actually even more dumb).

Reality #2 is that you have to look to your jurisdiction: most American States will enforce a prenup. You just have to do it right (get a lawyer - for you and another for her including one from her own country that is exclusively advising her).

Reality #3 is that you should have a prenup if you have significant assets REGARDLESS of where your bride is from - foreign or domestic. IF you own your home outright and/or have a substantial retirement account you need one. Even if you have nothing you may still need one to make clear that you have absolutely no alimony obligation in the event of divorce.

Marriage is not supposed to be about economic gain for the woman. Divorce is not supposed to be about economic windfall for her either. Divorce should only be about a permanent parting of the ways. A good prenup properly done can make that a reality in most American States.

Let the buyer beware!!!!

[prince_alfie]

Prince, I have absolutely no idea of what you're trying to say.  And, yes, the idea of a pre-nup is to protect financial interests.  Anyway, we have both discussed this and are in agreement. 

If you have ever been married before, just remember how much you loved your wife when you married.  Now ask yourself if you feel like the lucky one who will be part of the 50% who will stay married.  Kind of like Russian roulette...If someone said there was a 50% chance of being electrocuted when you turned on the light switch, would you do it?  Better to have a small insurance policy, don't you think?  Simply put, if you have lots, do what you need to do.  If you have little or nothing, no need.  Anyway, you do it your way and I'll do it mine.

I disagree. For example, if insurance collects the premium and doesn't do the payout then what was the point? In fact, nowadays there are so many clauses for insurance companies to avoid paying out (e.g. no flood, earthquake, or acts of God protection).

Same with pre-nup agreements. Doesn't do much at all in fact. I think that people need to make the right choice in the first shot and if it's wrong then the consequences need to be doled out accordingly.

This is more of cop-out solution than anything else.

[BC]

Has been quite a while since I felt motivated to post something. This topic motivates me to make an LP style post. Shouldn't because it isn't polite. But I will anyways.

It is questions likle this (prenup yes or no) that reveals who the reall dumba**s are: catzmouse, mir, kuna, bc, princeallfie.... and who the folks with brains and backbone are:mando, dkmm, jinv, billyb, globetrotter, etc.

Interesting... I'll call your shot.  Anyone that has ever had prenups, take a copy, wipe the personal information and attach them to your post.

I'll be the first to admit I never had them although was married twice before.  I treated these women (especially when kids were involved) above the minimum applicable laws and with respect even though they were raising all kinds of hell.  Even their lawyers advised them to take a decent deal now rather than fighting for years until there was little or nothing left.  They both had good, honest lawyers that worked in their clients interest instead of their own.
 

OK, you marry.  You own the house, and a Ferrari, an AC Cobra, and a grocery getter.  Five years later, she wants a divorce.  The judge says, what was your house worth 5 years ago, and what's it worth now?  Please pay her half the difference in past versus current value.  The cars...even though they are yours, where did the money come from to maintain them?  Oh, the joint checking account?.... she has an interest in them, and you owe her appreciation on them as well.  That's what happened in my divorce, and I won't let that happen again.  Even my 67 Shelby which I'd owned since I was 19, was in limbo, as she claimed ownership to that as well.  I did OK, but it took 3 years for a judge to decide, and it was 3 years of Hell.  If you lay it out beforehand, the pre-nup is fair to both, you've eliminated years of legal wrangling.  Again, just ask Sir Paul if he now wishes he had one!!!

   

Globetrotter,

IMHO marrying a woman includes her in the appreciation of value during the time you were married.  Sure you paid for maintenance, insurance etc for your 67 Shelby, improved your house..  On the other hand who was cooking your meals and washing dirty underwear while you tinkered endless hours away in your garage, buying every accessory imaginable while your wife bickered with you for new toilet seats till the day she popped the papers on you..

I know I may be reading a bit of fantasy between the lines of your post, but I do find your attitude a bit self centered.. something a prenup won't help you with either.  I'm not picking on you personally but your post presented a good example for my thoughts.

Those thinking 'This is mine' while considering marriage are train wrecks waiting to happen.

Sorry, that's not what marriage is about.

[Globetrotter]

Prince, still you make no sense at all.  I will explain "insurance policy" in the vein it was intended...flipping on the light switch.  The "insurance policy" in this case would be...to maybe turn on the light with an insulated pole.  Get my drift?

My business does mega-$million contracts in several countries, the house is over a mil and appreciates 10%/year, the car collection could buy 3 new Bentlys, etc.  Our pre-nup would have her keep her house and car in Russia and as HER rental income used any way she wants.  My business, house,  cars and other assets no matter what they may appreciate to, stay on my side of the ledger.  She is a top surgeon and hospital manager, and would be in any country.  I will do everything to help her to practice here, courses if needed, etc.  Her money, which could be $175K yearly would be hers to spend, invest, give to her family (they don't need it).  If we were to buy another place in Colorado (might do as she is an accomplished downhill skiier) she would own half of that.  She would be given health insurance for life if her job didn't provide it, she would get a good sum for every year married, etc., etc.  This simply protects me, as well as her.  She visits here, has a multi-entry visa, has seen how I live.  She doesn't know the scope of my business, but knows I travel to many places and that business is good.  She will know when she sees my tax returns...if we pull the trigger.  I am not "buying a wife".  I live, as she would, comfortably.  She knows she would be covered very well if I turn out to be a jerk.  Now that is fair.  I won't though, be subject to give her a fortune if things don't work out, and she knows this.  She is comfortable with everything.  She's not sure if she wants to move here yet, and she doesn't need to.  She's very respected in her profession, loves her family, country, and lives well.  The only thing that would bring her here is ME.  We have discussed all of this and she agrees to all.  

I will visit her for a week after business in London, and stay with her for a week.  Then she comes home with me for 2 weeks, then back home.  

If you still think that "love conquers all"...think again.

WmGo...very well said!!!      

[Globetrotter]

BC, you are right, you don't know me.  To answer your questions, both times she was here, I cooked every meal, I did all the laundry (mine as well as hers)
took a month off work, and just got to know each other better.  Oh, I also cut the grass, and never "tinkered" in the garage.  Actually there was a car show on a Sunday I really wanted to attend, but also a flower show.  We went to the flower show.  When bathrooms needed cleaning and the carpets vacuumed, we did this together. 

She's 45, I'm 55.  She's not a "10" on the outside, but certainly is on the inside.  She wants to be a Mom, but I'm sure her biological clock has ticked to a close.  I said, we'll adopt.  You want a girl, fine, a girl and boy, twins...OK.  You want to be a doc, a research scientist, also OK, a stay at home Mom?  It's up to her.  If she wants to travel with me on every overseas business trip, that's OK too.

She picked out the kitchen counter tops.  I will add on a library/office for her...the "Russian Room"...with a fireplace.  The house has more bedrooms than I can count and 4 bathrooms.  (None need a new toilet seat.)

You are dead wrong!  Because she and I choose to seperate love from some of the money, this is now a "failure in waiting?"  Get real!

[BC]

You are dead wrong!  Because she and I choose to seperate love from some of the money, this is now a "failure in waiting?"  Get real!

Globe,

In case you didn't notice, I was referring to the prior relationship split/ordeal you mentioned upstream and that I quoted, not your current flame.

I guess your lawyer (I assume you had one) really dropped the ball regarding your settlement/separation agreement last time round.

[Globetrotter]

Well BC, the first time around I didn't have a pre-nup.  It was necessary then because I had assets, and more necessary now. 

My ex traveled all over the world with me...India, Pakistan, SriLanka, Singapore, all over Europe, we lived in the UK for 6 months and traveled home from Southampton to New York on The QE2.  She was told every day she was loved, drove a Jaguar, didn't need to work, got flowers every week.  I did then as I do now, some cooking , my share of housework, etc., etc.  I don't drink, never did drugs, worked my tail off, but always planned special times for us.  She got plenty...some of which she deserved, and more that she had no right to.  It won't happen again.  Hope for the best, but know the worst just might be in the cards.  Enough said...you do it your way, I'll do it my way.   

[BC]

  Enough said...you do it your way, I'll do it my way.   

Yes... we live, we learn.. - hopefully..




 

[Turboguy]

Some thoughts I have on the topic. First, a good pre nup should not be designed to protect your assets. It should be designed to protect you both if the unexpected happens. She has given up a lot to be with you. She needs to feel comfortable that her life will not be ruined by an unexpected mistake.
A good will should also be part of the package.
With most AM-AW marriages both go in believing it will be forever. The same is true with MOST AM-FSU marriages but there are a small percentage where the woman has a hidden agenda. There can never be enough protection in these situations.
Most people getting divorced start with the plan to stay friends and be fair. It usually does no last once th lawyers get their fingers into it.
I have only seen on AM-FSU woman divorce close up. The legal fees totaled about $ 50,000 and she got about $ 25,000 out of it with the same in legal fees. $ 10,000 of that was arguing over a $ 10.00 snow shovel.

[Turboguy]

VWRW and I have talked a lot about finances. The plan is to have both a pre-nup and a will because no matter what happens I don't want her to have to worry and I don't want to have to worry about her survival.
In my case I do have a family business. My son has worked in it for 10 years and my Daughter for 5. My son-in-law also works in it part time. I do not want to see it destroyed and that is my only self interest.
I am not very concerned about a divorce and neither is VWRW but life does have it's surprises. I have told her the only way I would divorce her is if she cheated on me or turned into a total monster. She says then I am stuck with her because she will not do either.
I think a pre-nup is not neccesary for everyone but is wise for some. I do think it needs to be good for both. For those who remember our former long discussion and former member Tiger Paws, his pre-nup gave her an airline ticket home. If you are doing a Pre-nup and love someone it should not be one sided.

[BillyB]

Also, I'm not in a community property state so it will be not so difficult for me to protect what I'm bringing into it, namely my interests in the family partnerships. 

Just because you live in a State that recognizes separate property, do not assume your separate property is protected. Once you are married, your income becomes community property. Once your community income is invested in separate business or making payments on a separate home, it starts to become community business and a community home. Judges in family court are allowed a lot of discretion when making rulings and you might be surprised the business you thought was separate and protected according to law is not.

TG has the right idea. If he dies next year, it may prevent a fight between the wife and children and looks out for everybody. He earned all he's got and he should have some right to say how it gets distributed in the event he gives up the ghost.

I don't know if Anna Nicole Smith had a pre-nup but she sure got into a legal mess with her husbands children. I believed the old man promised her on paper something if she would marry him. The 1993 Playmate of the year married the 89 YO man worth hundreds of millions of dollars. He died the next year and the fight for the money was on for many years all the way to the Supreme Court. 11-12 years later the fight still isn't over until she died a few days ago. But then again the men fighting over who's the real father of her baby may fight on behalf of the baby to claim some money.

[Turboguy]

Another thing Anna Nicole brings to my mind is we all assume when a young woman marries a much older man that she will outlive him by a wide margin.  She demonstrated that there are no certainties in life.

[catzenmouse]

I spent some time looking at this from wmgo's point of view and I'll wear the dumbass badge of glory quite happily rather than live with such of view of life and my marriage.

I see nothing wrong with protecting your business or your childrens future but what I see here are folks thinking more along the line of TigerPaws (I also thought of him when I saw this thread) who care more about their toys, status, and bank account than they do about their partner.

This is what I had to do to get the same perspective as our esteemed members:

[BC]

LOL Ken!

I share your thoughts.

I still stand by my thoughts that:

A prenup is not insurance for bad choice.

If you need one your staff legal beagle will let you know.

If you need one you won't be asking for advice around here.

As no one took up my offer to post their last prenup we are as effective as monday morning quarterbacks discussing this subject.

Even with our prenup king TP, prenups were only half the story - the other half is keeping your money where the judicial system can't even touch it.

Is a bit funny how guys will spend thousands upon thousands to 'woo' their women but in the end try to penny pinch their way out instead of working with their soon to be ex wives and reach amicable agreements.  Some will balk at this and blame leech lawyers, bad judges, bad law but you really can do something about it if you really want.. don't get married in the first place or reside elsewhere where the legal climate is more inline with reality. Why do you think Boris Becker's wife filed for divorce in Florida?  Boris made a big mistake buying a house there in the first place..

I've read a few prenups.. and quite honestly they are very similar to employment contracts.

Another thing Anna Nicole brings to my mind is we all assume when a young woman marries a much older man that she will outlive him by a wide margin.  She demonstrated that there are no certainties in life.

TG,

I sorely hope you are not using this example to rationalize your relationship.  I also don't buy your 'save the firm, save the family' justification for your upcoming prenup.  Don't you think your future wife would be as interested as you are to see your business succeed in the future?.. or do you think she will try to 'cash out'?  If the intent is to prevent the latter you might be best reconsidering or taking more time to establish your relationship instead.  After all I cannot find any evidence to support the thesis that folks in their grave really turn over. 

[Turboguy]

TG,

I sorely hope you are not using this example to rationalize your relationship.  I also don't buy your 'save the firm, save the family' justification for your upcoming prenup.  Don't you think your future wife would be as interested as you are to see your business succeed in the future?.. or do you think she will try to 'cash out'?  If the intent is to prevent the latter you might be best reconsidering or taking more time to establish your relationship instead.  After all I cannot find any evidence to support the thesis that folks in their grave really turn over. 

No, BC,  I just was using it as an example of the uncertainty of life.   Age does not mean as much as we think.  My dad's first wife died in her 20's.  His second, my mother always had a lot of illnesses but is still alive and kicking and about to turn 94.   I was on VJ earlier and a post talked about a member who used to post there, CastAwaySailor who, when I lost track of him was moving to Russia to be with his woman.  He was a very nice young guy.  Today on VJ they were saying he never made it.  He died in a car accident.   

There have been some posts on here that indicated marriages with an AM-RW are very high risk and I have seen failure rates as high as 95% +/- listed.   Neither VWRW or I are very concerned about that possibility.   We talked again about our financial planning a few days ago.   When we talked about protecting her in the case we would end up divorced, her response was "I don't care about that".   Still I want her to not have to worry about any financial problems no matter what would happen.   By the way we are both very comfortable with how well we know each other and the course we are taking.   

I do agree with you about the turning over in the grave part.  I have had a lot of financial people try to talk me into something that will take care of someone or something after I would die.   I have often answered that I don't care about it because it won't be a problem for me.  I will be dead.  I won't have a problem in the world.  I do however listen if it makes sense.   In the case of VWRW it is a different situation.   She is a very wise, intelligent and capable person but she will be a while getting herself positioned to really live up to her potential in America.   I want to make sure whatever happens she will be ok.   

Going back to the pre-nup topic, I agree with what some others have said.  a pre-nup like TP had is not a good thing.   I think even TP did not trust it since he hid his money offshore.   I really think a court would throw his out.   Pennsylvania is a fair state when it comes to divorce.   Basically any increase in net worth during the marriage is divided.   In most cases someone who was married for a short time would not get much in a divorce.   At this stage nothing has been decided except that we are doing a pre-nup.   I am not sure what the lawyers will advise but I want to make sure VWRW would get at least what she would in a divorce in ours but I do not see it ever being a factor.   If I thought there was any likelyhood of a divorce, I would not bother to get married. 

[DKMM]

Good discussions going on around here.  I appreciated hearing Globetrotter's thoughts.  I also agree on the "take care of her as well" approach.

BillyB, my point was that my share in the family LP will always be my share and nobody elses, even a wife's.  Its not a representation of what I earn on my own at my job, or what I will earn and buy on my own including investments down the road while I'm married.  That all will be jointly owned shared and enjoyed.  And as long as we are married my wife will enjoy the benefit of the income (although there isn't any now, its 100% reinvested).  But the FLP shares are simply my share of the family "business".  Nobody outside of my parent's lineage is going to own any part of our joint real estate holdings ever, and there are plenty of reasons for that.  The value of these interests will go up after I get married, but my x% of the FLP cannot be shared... which is what the prenup needs to accomplish. 

[Gator]

A short comment from an air conditioned room while the Cossack is taking a nap on the balcony in 90+ heat of Thailand.  Love this wireless.

Tiger Paws - T/G, I did not read RWD when he posted.  T Paws can not be serious.  If he had enough wealth to use offshore accounts, he surely could afford good attorneys.  A good attorney would never prepare a prenup giving the woman nothing because it would be valuable only for TP (tissue or toilet paper).

Estate planning - my attorney said to include estate distribution (e. g., 50%) in the prenup because the percentage could not be changed without the spouse's consent.  In contrast, a will could be changed at any time without informing the spouse. The prenup would take precedent if contested in court.

Emotional maturity - I agree that a prenup is not romantic and does indeed pour cold water over a relationship when everything is just peachy.  Yet, for some men it is not only prudent and proper, it is necessary.  A woman who does not have the emotional maturity to discuss the concept in an intelligent manner DOES NOT have the partnership qualities necessary to make collaborated decisions about other important aspects of life.  And there are many critical decisions in a good marriage.  That does not mean she must agree with some hare brained, self-serving concept such as Tiger Paws' payout.  She just needs to give it her best effort to study the concept and attempt to reach a win-win decision.  Thus, a prenup is another good test of the woman and the relationship before saying "I DO".

[Bruno]

Tiger Paws - T/G, I did not read RWD when he posted.

Maybe you can read it... 14 page of post about prenuptial agreement ( more of 200 post and almost 8000 view, number two in the experienced section ) :
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=71.0

[Zoro]

Reading this scares the hell out of me!  I don't even want to think about a second divorce...but I suppose I should learn from my last bad experience and do a prenup this time.  I bet a judge would side with a crying Russian girl who can't speak English and take everything...last time they took 90% 

[joty]

there have been some messy divorces and some greedy people wanting anything and everything they can get their hands on.  (This is the same person who once told you I would never want to hurt you ect...) If you have property or a business it would be your best interest to get a pre-nup. You would want to take care of your ex i am sure, but do you want to lose everything you have worked your whole life for, just because one day someone told you I will love you forever and i would never want to hurt you.  You cant look at it as a trust thing, I mean it is a different world out there and because of that many people have alot of influence helping them get what they want or think they deserve

[Mir]

Zoro

I doubt anyone can take anything from Zoro

Anyway the problem is not only if pre-nups are romance-killers but also that they may not be worth much.