Double standard well and alive

[Albert]

In organizing my upcoming trip, I received this as part of message two from a particular lady: 

"May be you organized a parade of "fiancées". Isn't it true?  If so, you may forget about me. If I am wrong, I am sorry for my directness.  I would like you to come only to me with the exception of your business."

Just today, a couple of weeks later, I received message five from same lady: 

"You are interesting man but I have already been aquainted with someone for sometime and have become very close. We are planning a soon meeting away so I will not in city those days you come. Of course till the meeting we have not decided anything but  things look good. I wish you best of luck in finding also someone with whom you can get close."

Imagine if I had followed the WO procedure with this lady starting three weeks ago.

And imagine if I had been commited to VO at this late date.

[TheArrow]

But do not think that all women are the same.

[Bruce]

Thats why the majority of people do not recommend a guy go to the FSU on a WOVO fact finding mission ie. always have a back-up plan!

[Photo Guy]

Yes there is often a double standard. And maybe all women are not like that. It reminds of the time I was dating a woman and we were starting to get serious, when she told me she was getting back together with her ex-fiance. I was livid. I decided not to take her so seriously and I began to look elsewhere. A few days later she 'caught' me charming another beautiful woman. She went crazy with anger and never forgave me for that. So, it was okay for her to go back with her ex-lover, but NOT okay for me to look elsewhere. Women!
     Doug,  ...about to meet Larisa, who has told me she has never met
another foreign man. Well, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

[tim 360]

Males and females do not think in quite the same way.  Never have.  Never will.  This has led to great confusion and numerous break-ups, divorces, and outright murder down through the ages.  This non-confluent thinking has also led to numerous marriages, births,  and love.  Go figure.

I am not sure?  Could be the wiring?

'Tis a human dilemena,  it is.

[Bruno]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Yes there is often a double standard. And maybe all women are not like that. It reminds of the time I was dating a woman and we were starting to get serious, when she told me she was getting back together with her ex-fiance. I was livid. I decided not to take her so seriously and I began to look elsewhere. A few days later she 'caught' me charming another beautiful woman. She went crazy with anger and never forgave me for that. So, it was okay for her to go back with her ex-lover, but NOT okay for me to look elsewhere. Women!
Doug, ...about to meet Larisa, who has told me she has never met
another foreign man. Well, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

Around the same story with my ex-russian wife... during the marriage, she have cheat me... after the divorce, i have begin meet other woman... she have not accept this, she have visit my new girlfriend, send letter, several of his friend make report on all my move...  what a hell... result, i have chance of city for life in peace... and have some privacy...

 

[tim 360]

It is much like dog behaviour.  A dog may have a bone which to all appearances---the dog does not like or want.  But,  let another dog come and touch her unwanted bone...and there will be a fight.

Moral:  The best and tastiest bone is the bone other dogs want.

[TheArrow]

[user=62]tim 360[/user] wrote:

It is much like dog behaviour.  A dog may have a bone which to all appearances---the dog does not like or want.  But,  let another dog come and touch her unwanted bone...and there will be a fight.

Moral:  The best and tastiest bone is the bone other dogs want

We say here in Russia - a dog in the manger

[Journeyman]

Albert,

Over several years of trips to the FSU, I've been involved in several serious relationships.  In each case, the girl proclaimed that it was an exclusive relationship, as did I.  This included 2 engagements.  I meant it -- about exclusivity -- but later learned that they did not.  Even when their families got involved and gave the relationship their approbation -- the girl still had some "extracurricular activities" going on.      

I have since put severe limitations on my willingness to trust.  And, as I realized, that makes the playing field level.  As I learned along the way, in the FSU, nobody trusts nobody, ever, except maybe a few family members, and a very few friends, at best.  Moreover, the attitude over there that --if you are so stupid to trust someone, it is then your fault for getting burned -- now makes WOVO strategies unthinkable, in my book.  

In the experience of most WM I know who have dated or married FSU women, it takes a long, long, long time to truly gain their full trust.  Meanwhile, they are limiting their downside risk by . . .  "diversifying" and hedging (with other men -- either locals or foreigners).  It seems to me that it is SOP for RW to WMVM.  After 5 years, I have never seen an exception to this rule.  I just wish I understood this at the beginning.

I am not saying that these FSU ladies are bad.  No.  Rather, it seems to me that they are acting rationally and reasonably, from their own perspective and experience.  Moreover, I've observed this same behavior for many more years with American ladies too.  Not all of them, but plenty.  This is just the way it is.  I seem to recollet some comedian, maybe Bill Maher, having some comedy routine about that too.  Always, proceed with caution.

Journeyman

[Elen]

it takes a long, long, long time to truly gain their full trust.

Now, now:D It's not not such long - only till she'll see marriage certificate in her hands:D (or may be green card, all depens on particular woman:?)

[Journeyman]

Elen,

I think that you are correct.  

On my first date with my current devushka, she told me that she "understood" that she couldn't fully trust a man until maybe after 2 or 3 years -- because, she said, people hide character flaws and other things.  I was not insulted, but relieved, that she would be so honest.  That admission helped her to get a second date with me.  Since then, she rarely tells me what I want to hear, and that has helped to build even more trust.  I do the same.

Journeyman

[Leslie]

Albert,

Over several years of trips to the FSU, I've been involved in several serious relationships. In each case, the girl proclaimed that it was an exclusive relationship, as did I. This included 2 engagements. I meant it -- about exclusivity -- but later learned that they did not. Even when their families got involved and gave the relationship their approbation -- the girl still had some "extracurricular activities" going on.

I have since put severe limitations on my willingness to trust. And, as I realized, that makes the playing field level. As I learned along the way, in the FSU, nobody trusts nobody, ever, except maybe a few family members, and a very few friends, at best. Moreover, the attitude over there that --if you are so stupid to trust someone, it is then your fault for getting burned -- now makes WOVO strategies unthinkable, in my book.

In the experience of most WM I know who have dated or married FSU women, it takes a long, long, long time to truly gain their full trust. Meanwhile, they are limiting their downside risk by . . . "diversifying" and hedging (with other men -- either locals or foreigners). It seems to me that it is SOP for RW to WMVM. After 5 years, I have never seen an exception to this rule. I just wish I understood this at the beginning.

I am not saying that these FSU ladies are bad. No. Rather, it seems to me that they are acting rationally and reasonably, from their own perspective and experience. Moreover, I've observed this same behavior for many more years with American ladies too. Not all of them, but plenty. This is just the way it is. I seem to recollet some comedian, maybe Bill Maher, having some comedy routine about that too. Always, proceed with caution.

Journeyman

Hi Journeyman,

I have read this post several times - there are elements of truth here that ALL guys who are new to this quest should appreciate.  Ukraine and Russia are amongst the most corrupt societies in the world.  There are many very good reasons that no one trusts ANYONE except family and close friends.  Western standards of integrity do not apply.

My wife is still shocked that our business and social system does not operate by bribery.  Hell - public servants are honest! Rich people cannot use their money to influence the judical system - Pop stars can be tried as paedophiles!!  Very rich people actually pay their taxes - Unbelievable!!!

Deceipt and lies are deeply ingrained in these cultures.  I have had several variations of this conversation in FSU -

"You don't trust me then?"

"No, Trust is not something you can claim from me, You earn it by your actions"

"How can we have a relationship if you don't trust me?"

"Well trust is not all or nothing. I learnt that as a child.  I have only known you for a little while so I will only trust you on certain things.  I am sure you treat me in the same way...."

Journeyman your advice "Proceed with caution" is spot on. 

You have to learn WHO you are dealing with.  In the begining you will not be able to tell the difference between a prostitute and a princess.  The big city tourist scene makes my skin crawl.  Not because most of the good looking women in this scene are professionals (I expect that!), but because most of the guys dating these women are unaware that they are dating women who you should pay by the hour!

 

 

[jb]

Leslie, Journeyman,

You are both quite right.  I've written on the subject of trust and fidelity extensively on the "other board" in the past, only to have my backside scorched by the one week wonders who want a more rosy picture painted for them. If the man is seriously hung up on the notion of fidelity and committed relationships after being with a girl only a few days, he needs to go to another planet, that woman doesn't exist on Earth, especially a hottie from the FSU.

I think this is an area where the devout Christian runs afoul with reality.  These women are more traditional than AWs in many ways, but sexual attitudes are light years away of the what the fundamental faithful is expecting.

[Bruce]

I explain to my wife that the word trust is often misused.  I believe faith should be used in place of trust ie. I have faith in you.  When my wife first got here I would say I do not trust you to use the subway and go to Manhattan alone.  In fact I did not trust her ability to do anything when she first got here.  She was like a baby lamb in a city of wolves.  With time she understands that I trust her ability to do more and more things.  Now I am trusting her enough to where she can learn how to drive a car................... 

In any event, a guy comes to a certain point in his relationship where he has to make some sort of "leap of faith."  Hopefully, he has done his homework and spent as much face time as he feels is necessary.  Everyone "knows" what that time is.  I wanted to error on what I felt was the side of caution.  Others are truly one week wonders.  I tend to think the slower more cautious, multiple trip approach is smarter and more likely to produce a lasting, loving marriage but only time will tell..............

JB - I agree completely with you.  Unless a guy is married I would not expect the average girl from the FSU to behave how an American girl would.

[Bruno]

... I've written on the subject of trust and fidelity extensively on the "other board" in the past, only to have my backside scorched by the one week wonders who want a more rosy picture painted for them. If the man is seriously hung up on the notion of fidelity and committed relationships after being with a girl only a few days, he needs to go to another planet, that woman doesn't exist on Earth, especially a hottie from the FSU.

One week wonder ... maybe it is better speak about 1 minute wonder

On a other topic, anono write :

...all the women sitting at tables, 3 to maybe 8 at a table. there are at least 2 empty chairs , one for the man and his translator. every 10-15 minutes (voted on by the group after the first few parties) the man and his translator would swap tables and move from table to table...

Say 6 woman by table, and 12 minutes... it mean that the guys have only 2 minutes for know a lady... and because of translator time, it is more like a minute... impossible to know someone in so short time... maybe his name :?... in some way, it is not far from fall in love of a photo... only replace the photo by a body :cool:...

Now, about trust, it is possible at some level... by example, Galina trust me, she have pay herself the 150$ needed for the hire of appartment ( trip of next month )... and i go pay her back during the meeting... build a relation without trust is not possible... you need a minimum of trust ... and only the time and your own work at the relation can make it grow...

If i cannot trust a woman, why marry her... why try build a relation... be suspicious about all is the best way for break your relation...

 

[jb]

Bruno

I take a constructivism approach to this fourm.

Everything you read, see, hear, feel, and touch is tested against your prior experience and knowledge, if a man has experience with the FSU, and it is viable within his mental world, he may actually learn something new from the posts of others who have been down a similar path before.  If, on the other hand, he has no prior knowledge, i.e., nothing I can say is viable to the newbie reading the post and trying to grasp what married life with an RW is like if he has nothing to measure it against.  This is not to say you can't learn anything from reading a few posts, obviously you can, it's just pointing out that there is more interpretation going on than a transfer of information from one brain to another.

Knowledge gained from this or other forums, is strengthened if you can use it successfully in your travels to the FSU.  Your travel experience as a Belgium national is going to be vastly different from that of an American seeing the exact same thing at the exact same time but being colored by different prior experience.  This was the point I have tried to make.

I think this is the stem for people getting upset with you when you take a post out of context in an effort to make some obscure point that's not relevant to the American's experience abroad  

[Bruno]

Yep, against some probleme because my nationality... Yes, i am not American but it meet the same woman, the RW...

Of course, i have sometime a other point of view... but why refuse these meaning because i am not American...

Don't you find strange that usually, scammer attack almost only American man... that on forum, almost only american man explain about problem... i try only to share my experience... maybe the dating method of American abroad is wrong... several people here speak about success when they have meet 100, 200, 300 RW... during several year... but i cannot call this a success... maybe it is time for use other method...

And about post out of context... i am not responsible... the topic was closed before i was able to write my meaning... and your post, about one week wonder have give me the possibility to reply...

Some week ago, i have begin to limit myself in my post but it seem that i am always a probleme for some... i begin tired to the xenophobe meaning of some... don't worry, i don't post anymore until end May... i ready my trip now and after i am away for three week in Ukraine...  

[Leslie]

JB,

 

You have been posting "straight from the hip" advice for as long as I can remember.  Guys may not want to hear the unvarnished truth but the smart ones (myself included) listen.  You taught me the importance of learning about FSU culture, breaking out of the agency scene and living like a local,  mixing with ordinary folks.  I have made several real friends amongst those ordinary people.  I have not spoken to anyone in the agency scene for nearly three years…

 

Your comment on devout Christians is unfortunately true.  The number of posts where I have heard men BOAST that their mid twenties plus fiancé who he met via an agency  is a virgin or does not sleep around (i.e. has had few sexual partners)  LMAO!!!!

 

Natasha reckons these guys are like "Prince Myshkin"  who of course believed whatever he was told by everyone….

 

Please give my regards to Etna who of course will be able to help with the literary reference.

 

[Leslie]

Bruce,

 

I completely agree with you when you say

 

"I tend to think the slower more cautious, multiple trip approach is smarter and more likely to produce a lasting, loving marriage but only time will tell.............."

 

I have followed your journey since 2002 and your search has always seemed a very sane approach for a discerning guy.  I know you caught a lot of flack in certain quarters.  I think because you discussed the true situation with regard to the "big 3" agency social tours.

 

[jb]

Les,

It's true, there are huge benefits to be gained by living a few weeks "on the local economy" WRT understanding the culture.  IMHO, living a week or 10 days under the protective wraps of an agency doesn't give a man the proper perspective at all.

There are just too many horror stories out there not to give a man pause if he's getting married to a woman he doesn't know well.  And it's not all one sided, there is a situation going on now where a RW is living in a shelter in Austin, TX that just breaks my heart.  It's just beyond my understanding how so many men who post to these boards take such a devil may care approach to finding a mate.  I don't wish ill to any guy out there who's unable to find the love of his life at home. Turning to the internet and broadening his seach is possibly the best thing to happen to a single guy since sliced bread, but for crying out loud, marriage is not something to take so lightly.

For what it's worth, our old friend CaptB was another who decided to go it alone after several failed attempts with the agency in Tver.  I'm glad to say he's now happily married to a perfectly lovely woman that he searched out on his own, and they are about to celebrate their 2nd wedding anniversary soon.  Etna and I often talk about how lucky we are to have such friends, even if they are just cyber friends...

Stay well, my friend, and I'll pass your regards on to Etna.

Tks

[Leslie]

Bruno,

 

I really don't know what to make of you.  One day you post sensible insights into this process and the next you post like a clown!

 

I know English is a second (or maybe even third language) for you so perhaps you don't understand our discussion of the concept of trust??

 

When you say "by example, Galina trust me, she have pay herself the 150$ needed for the hire of apartment "

 

Well I can relate to that.  Galina trusts you enough to pay the deposit on your apartment and you in turn trust her enough to visit her.  Completely sane.

 

Then you say "If i cannot trust a woman, why marry her... why try build a relation... be suspicious about all is the best way for break your relation..."

 

This is a child's definition of the concept of trust.  Like a power switch - on or off!!  

 

By your own admission your first wife left you and by what you have posted she treated you like a mule to gain Belgian citizenship.  That's a track record which matches someone who is way too trusting.  Wise people learn from their life experiences and try not to repeat their mistakes!

 

You then go on to deride  Jack's social parties and by association the people like Robert who have attended them.

 

You have posted on this board you are around 5' 8" tall with a 45" waist.  Hmmm. Going to a social party or on a blind date just isn't going to be a successful strategy for you.  You are not going to shine in the competitive dating situation of Jack's socials.  Put you side by side with someone like Robert who is tall, athletic, (even good looking!) and you are going to look like the "booby prize"

 

Socials are all about assessing chemistry.  Do you like this woman?  Does she like you?  I have a reasonable answer to this question within 5 minutes of meeting a woman.  Good enough to know whether I should spend longer talking with her and then maybe invite her on a first date.

 

Tell me have you EVER dated this way in FSU???  Somehow I think not!

 

Your strategy has to revolve around writing to convince the ladies of your desirability based on the content of your character. Hey there is nothing wrong with that.  Do what works for you.

 

When you post about things you have personal experience on your advice is good.  When you post arguments on subjects you know nothing about you just sound stupid.

 

Post about your own experience.  I hope your trip to meet with Galina is successful.  Honestly I wish you both well….

 

 

[jb]

Natasha reckons these guys are like "Prince Myshkin"  who of course believed whatever he was told by everyone….

Do you possibly mean "Graf Myshkin"?  The man in a Fyodor Dostoevsky novel who was a very special character, one who was able to love in the same manner as Jesus. I seem to remember he was a Count, not a Prince.  WhatdoIknow?

[Bruno]

With Galina, it will not be a problem... these trip is more for convince his father who was not home during my first trip... and resolve some problem about the religious marriage ( important for the father, he is orthodox cleric )... in case the problem is resolved, the marriage is already planned for december 2004 / january 2005 ( two full month in Ukraine )...  

[Bruce]

Les, Bruno - I hope you both agree to disagree and bury the hatchet.  You both have so much to contribute to this board and advise so many guys new / continuing with the process of finding / marrying a girl from the FSU. 

[Bruno]

Les, Bruno - I hope you both agree to disagree and bury the hatchet.  You both have so much to contribute to this board and advise so many guys new / continuing with the process of finding / marrying a girl from the FSU. 

Bruce, no need to bury the hatchet with Leslie, it was not war... Same if sometime i disagree a little with Leslie, usually, he is one of the member who post very good article... i have only explain a little more my point of view...

But my blood begin cooking when other people use the fact that i am not American for that that my post have no value... i have know it several time here... by example about visa procedure when i refert with US .gov site, some people attack my post too because a foreign have post it...

Sometime, my post can seem strange but it is only because i try to have a neutral position... sometime, i try see the situation on the side of man but other time, from the side of woman... the goal of my site is to bring a woman and man together and hope that they are happy from a long time... for this, i need to analyse the thinking of the two side...

Below, i have copy the text from the link cited in my previous post... since several people don't follow link... it is from a RW who share his dating experience and some problem about trust :

Russian woman's dating experience.

Dear friends,


I really appreciate your search for truth, goodness gracious:-)...ok. Just a simple comment regarding us, Russians and the way you treat us in the internet...only dont flush it when you finish reading, pleassssssssse:-)


Just a simple comment regarding scammers. See, I am a decent simple-hearted Russian girl, Oksana is my name.  I am a modest teacher of English but due to Russian economy I have to have a bunch of not so very well payed part-time jobs, including teaching, interpreting, pcycology. Of course I am not satisfied with Russian reality and of course I want to relocate..but not for the sake of relocating ONLY, I want this step to be based on mutual attraction, love e.t.c...well, hopefully you understand me. So me not being a mercenary girl, I cant figure out: where do you see this scammers success? I think these are more exaggerated stories of men. Let me reveal you one simple and, alas, as it seems to me, eternal truth: men from abroad are unbelievably GREEDY and they NEVER ever trust...even if you dont ask them for anything at all (my case: I try to be always responsible and decent and neutral in my letters)..but the undeniable fact based on my personal experience is that during 2 years (!) of me sincerely and ardently trying to find a husband, by means of writing super-numerous letters (making all of them PERSONAL), putting my HEART into relationship....me, the girl, who knows English much better than the vast majority of these Russian dolls:-)...me, who is really GENUINE in my intention to find LOVE....I have NEVER been presented even a single FLOWER or a mere post-card for my birthday, not talking of New Year, good old Valentine e.t.c........


So, dear friends, my question is: where do you find these victims of the horrible Russian scammers. I have never seen any...though maybe its because I never tried and will never try to ask for a simple jesture of attention.......but I think that no matter whether you ask or not ask you will still be left without flowers, believe my big experience! Russian men are different. Its a pity the country is rolling down to alcohol and drugs... Otherwise I would stay here. But on the other hand I see hardly anything to do with the generosity of the HEART (not wallet...wallet is only the reflection of this trait, if you want) on the behalf of your dear Western male-idividuals...but I dont give up! I still hope to find a simple normal guy who would not hesitate to send me a candy at least once a year - for my birthday...or... maybe a crumb of bread..just kidding:-) But, honestly speaking, believe me, I never beg for alms...and the conclusion is that whatever happens I would rather die than ask for anything. Though the foreign men would not display any generosity in 99 percents out of 100 cases... trust my grave statistics! So I guess I am doomed to always get letters from men about mistrust, scammers, e.t.c.....based on NOTHING in my personal case.


So, dear friends, my hope to find a normal simple-hearted not sceptical guy is almost at zero. I wrote feedback letters during my free time, and I hardly have mental or moral energy to prove to every single guy that I am me and not a con, and that black is not white...see what you are doing? But no problem, I will continue to loose my eye sight writing constant self-justifications, that humiliate both me and..my nation. Please tell me what should I do if I am from Russia...should I pray to God that people trust me..because actions that speak louder than words do nothing? You are treating women with equality over there, as I see........ WEll, I dont know what else to say...but my soul is still in agony and it needs expression. Once again thank you concerning your sense of justice. Its already so natural to be insulted by foreign men..it does not astonish me already..though.. Nobody paid money for ANYTHING in my life. I always worked HARD. But I guess that when a person trusts some weird girl who does not deserve any trust because she speaks hardly a word of English and asks for Kingdom in return, well its easy to despise me who actually is real and has a bit more brains/pictures to reason with - in addition..which actually should be regarded as a BONUS by any sainly-thinking individual..but no! Mistrust only enhances owing to these "good" scores and factores! I call it a N-A-T-U-R-A-L Murphy law:-). Never mind, if you dont believe, let it be a big compliment for me as for a normal nice girl, so I am touched I guess.


I have no scars on my biography, and its ME, come and see. I need nothing from men, no money, no gifts. Nothing. Just wanted to talk and be friends. But first - I wanted somebody to start believing me - at least a little..to begin with, you know:-). I feel that nobody is any different, so I decided to just be philosophic and not take it so close to my heart..otherwise MY heart will stop..its not made of iron..and two years of constant insults of Westerners actually had their impact on my health and moral condition. And this heart of mine has had enough of negativity of mens suspicions during all this time. Too much for my age, decency, vulnerability and sense of justice. Sorry, but this is my sincere outlook on the matter. NOTHING TO HIDE FROM SOCIETY!....and you guys:-)

Morally exhausted, physically tired, but not giving up:-), continuously non-mercenary Oksana.. - whose decency you all continuously dare to doubt even in the cases when you have known her for a long time during which any self-respecting lier would have dropped the relationship at a much earlier stage. But I am still talking to Westerners. Why? Think about "why".....maybe...because I like a benefit of doubt? No! Because I am an idiot who believe in love...stupid naive me:-)