Ukraine: Paradise lost?

[Mir]

When I was on the plane on way to Ukraine for the first time I had an American man sitting next to me. He kept rambling on about what a great place Ukraine is for a holiday and told me that he goes there whenever he a vacation. He emphasized that for a single, American male it is like heaven (more or less). When we were getting off at Kiev airport he turned to me and said;’ Just try to keep it to yourself and don’t tell too many Americans how good it is otherwise they will start pouring in and destroy the place’. Since then the abolition of visa requirements, expansion in internet services and the recent drop in airfares on US-Ukraine rout (heck one guy got Memphis-Kiev return for $372!) has made Ukraine a popular destination for men seeking a wife or a girlfriend who is young, pretty and not so high maintenance. In a way it looks as his fears have come true and new travellers are likely to face much tougher competition plus a developing realization among the Ukrainian women that the life in US is not such bed of roses and they are probably better staying put.
Now I see many people posting their trip reports with stories of meeting women in Ukraine (and Russia) but not many write about adventures in countries like Belarus etc. I wonder if this is because not many go to such place or only that they are just keeping quite? 

[Kuna]

Mir,

It's an interesting question but one that has an "almost" obvious answer in my opinion.

The number of myths that were exploded for me during my trip were tremendous.

I found that the girls are NOT desperate to leave Ukraine (I didn't think they were) but they are looking for more "suitable" partners than they'd found at home. (sounds a bit like us huh?)

I also met several western men while I was there and I was disappointed to see a mostly "low standard" of traveller on the same pursuit I was on.  I think if we're honest we'll see that the women in FSU must look at us with increasing skepticism after they meet some of our countrymen.  It actually made me think about the so-called pro-daters, what is motivating them and how they got to the point of such activity?

Is it possible some have met so many losers that they thought "Damn it, I'll take what I can get if they're coming here looking for easy sex"?

I also don't think the men in Ukraine are the losers we all keep hearing about... Instead I think many of the women are just aiming higher than the men they are meeting at home and therefore they're looking for a relationship that can give them more (emotional, economic, social) options than they think they can get at home. 

I don't think that makes the local men bad... it just makes it hard for the women to find what they're looking for.  What that does mean is that they won't settle for "just any westerner" that turns up because they can have average or blow average men at home. 

If we're going to take this journey I think we need a  realistic idea of who we are and what we can offer a relationship. 

Will the pool of available women dry up in Ukraine and Russia?  I think the answer is yes... over a period of time. 

I don't think improving economic conditions will be the main driver though.  I think the local girls disappointment with the types of men trying to marry a FSUW will have just as great an impact!

How can we prevent it from happening?  I don't know but I'm glad I took my trip now and not in 5 years!

Kuna

[IAmZon]

In my first several posts, I was very concerned about "league" and "beauty."  I was admonished for being superficial by some of the more wise and senior members.

No, not really,  I smelled a rat.  I wanted to know if any one else did too:)

Yaaaa it happens, o c c a s s i o n a l l y that a very attractive young lady REALLY does fall in love with a man who is not Brad Pitt and 55 years of age. But those guys have some kinda spin on the ball too!  I do not know of a late aged average Joe who has rightly married a ridiculously HOT (and thereby out of league) RW.

I think that is a good sign

[groovlstk]

He kept rambling on about what a great place Ukraine is for a holiday and told me that he goes there whenever he a vacation. He emphasized that for a single, American male it is like heaven (more or less).

Is it just me or am I the only one to believe 100% that this guy is nothing but a sex tourist?

I heard the same complaints about Prague 10 years ago, although instead of Americans everyone pointed to the Brits for spoiling it.

[Mir]

He could be a sex tourist but then:

What is a man who is looking for a wife and goes to FSU,stays 10 days and meets 30 women.
If he has sex with none of them then he is not a sex tourist is he?

[DKMM]

This is why I hope Russia never lifts their visa requirments.  As to the US vs. Ukraine comment, I've never ever met a Ukrainian here (out of nearly a 100) who thinks their homeland is a nicer place to live.  Not even close.  But I don't know everyone so...

[Mir]

'As to the US vs. Ukraine comment, I've never ever met a Ukrainian here (out of nearly a 100) who thinks their homeland is a nicer place to live'

That is why they are in US

Actually a large number of people from the countries where economic situation is not good look to emigrate to the US or sometimes to Europe.
Certainly this new life brings them more money,better health care and hope for a better future. But there are trade offs and such trade offs can be significant.What they have to give up relates to their emotional well being.The issue is rather complicated and many immigrants after some time wonder if they did the right thing to leave their home land.

[Bruce]

Mir, right on with the last post.  MIL thought everything was better in New York then Russia except for the potatoes.  My wife has a different opinion.............but still likes it here better, mostly because of me.  When I think about it from a pure look (girls physical beauty) perspective, Ukraine was a bit better.  I just preferred the Russian mentality over all.  I thought they were over all more marriage minded then the girls I met in Ukraine, though I did meet one really good match with a heart of gold for me during my trip to Kiev way back when that I decided to punt on.  She is in England now guys so things ultimately ended up working out for her.   Anyway, Ukraine is easier to travel to.  It seems like a slam dunk for a guy to go to Ukraine.  That being said, if I was a guy looking today I would seriously investigate and at least give Belarus one try and probably end up in Russia to find my wife. 

[Daveman]

This is why I hope Russia never lifts their visa requirments.  As to the US vs. Ukraine comment, I've never ever met a Ukrainian here (out of nearly a 100) who thinks their homeland is a nicer place to live.  Not even close.  But I don't know everyone so...

Of course, these are generalizations about a group comprised of individuals which will often fall outside the normality of generalities pertaining to group dynamics.  Or some such B.S. disclaimer.f

Once they are out of the country, they see the big difference in economics. Granted the economic picture is brightening in Ukraine, but there is one distinct difference.  There really is no middle class.  There is simply the haves, and the have nots, and most fall into the latter category.  Salaries may have risen from average $200  to average $400-$500USD per month for a decent job, but, once you shop at a mall or supermarket, see the real-estate costs for flat rental or purchase, you see the problems of survival month to month still remain. Oh, and hot water from the tap is only available from october to march unless an expensive water heater is installed. 

Government corruption and instability is still a major problem for them.  Basically the eastern half wants closer relations with Russia, and the western half wants closer relations with europe and the west.  These factions have literally come to fist fights on the floor of Parliament.  Starting a business in Ukraine is a major headache. Even after its up and running, the tax people can and do show up at any time and ask for money. 

Credit is a difficult topic because most everyone claims to make little to no money (even when they do) because of the corrupt and inflated tax system.  So, it is difficult for people who 'make no money' to be granted credit.  Again, the have and have not system.  It's basically a cash based system from top to bottom in most cases.  This is changing to some degree, but, it's not likely to really morph fully for several years, and not at all if the government doesn't stabilize and the people band together to end corruption, which is unlikely because even though they did have the Orange Revolution sit in a few years ago, most common people still view the government with much timidity and trepidation.

Even so, these women are not clamoring to leave their country.  They don't want to leave. They want to marry have children and may leave for that reason, or wish to remain in the country as a westerner's mistress (words of a lady in Kharkov, not mine) with all the benefits.  There was a discussion that I couldn't follow completely about this topic of "Western Mistress" because it was in Russian, but it was roughly translated for me that many wish to have a husband or lover outside the country, even having children with him, who pays for her flat/expenses and simply raises the children there. Interesting, huh? I thought so.  The conditions are similar to Russia in that the women do outnumber the men, though the exact statistical percentage is of some debate.  For a single and especially divorced woman nearing or above 30, her options to have a family become more limited at home.  But, she's still very picky.

Blah blah blah, if you stay in the country for more than a week or two, you can really pick up some interesting information.  I lived with a woman in Kharkov for 2.5 months and was able to get a bit more into the culture and thoughts than a simple visit would allow.  I heard some pretty amazing stories about life, love, happiness, etc from all her friends when they'd get together and gab...

Just words from my personal experience, nothing more. Take them as exactly that.  To live in a different culture for only 2.5 months is really just skimming through the Cliff's Notes of it all and I am sure my understanding is limited at best, and sometimes even completely off the mark.

Dave

[jb]

Hi Dave~!

Very astute observations.  I couldn't agree more as my experience in Russian is sooooooo similar.  Even the "have's" try very hard not to show wealth unless they are very stupid. 

[Michelangelo]

As to the US vs. Ukraine comment, I've never ever met a Ukrainian here (out of nearly a 100) who thinks their homeland is a nicer place to live.  Not even close.  But I don't know everyone so...

Well, I've met one such girl (my Vik).  She's been here 6 months, and truly believes her homeland is a MUCH nicer place to live.  And we've already tried out three US cities, trying to find a place that compares to her city in Ukraine.  BTW- upper east side of manhattan was rejected as the first of our three cities after living there only three weeks in a luxury furnished apartment that overlooked Central Park...

We have tried to set her girlfriends up with some of my friends here~but none of them were interested in living in Ukraine.  But of course, all of her friends are university educated and have good jobs and are happy.

In another strand, ScottinCrimea stated that $1000 a month gives you a very nice lifestyle in Ukraine.  My Vik was making $800 a month and owned her flat.

So I think there is something to be said for the "Paradise Lost" thought...

[ScottinCrimea]

     Even after having lived here in Ukraine for 2 years I still frequently learn something new about attitudes about life, love, money, etc that surprise me.  I really haven't met any UW who want to marry a foreignor soley for the purpose of leaving Ukraine.  They just want to find a man who will understand them, support them financially, and not cheat on them.  Unfortunately this is rather difficult to find here.  A good percentage of men think it is perfectly acceptable to have a mistress and the attitude among many UW is that if a man is willing to give them money regularly, than why not?  Although this a "secret" the wife usually knows but tolerates it because she doesn't have many options.  Only when it gets out of hand will she divorce him over this.
     I see the gap between the haves and the have-nots, but I also see an emerging middle class.  I think it will still take a couple of generations, though, before this is a significant part of the population.  I am very optimistic about the future of Ukraine because everywhere I look there is construction, new businesses and more private investment.  Even in these two years, Simferopol has changed significantly and is currently undergoing a nice facelift.
     I spoke to a woman recently who had been to the US several times on business.  She had visited with several Ukrainian families who had immigrated to the US and told me that every one planned to stay in the US only long enough to build up a retirement, then they planned to return to Ukraine.  Of course when you speak to many who have come to the US from Ukraine they will say they prefer the US.  This is because those who don't have returned to Ukraine.  I know several who have done so.
     The coast of Crimea is a beautiful area that has been compared to the French Riviera and is a vacation destination for millions of people from the FSU.  Only now is its potential starting to be realized and as a result, land prices have skyrocketed.  There are still no Western style hotels there, though, and they have not yet learned to cater to Western tastes.  One reason that it is still an undiscovered paradise is that there is still some difficulty in getting here.  Kiev is a frequent destination for Westerners because there are regular international flights there, but to get to Crimea you have to take a domestic flight to Simferopol, then a bus or taxi to your destination.  Other than some direct flights from Frankfurt in the summer, there are no direct international flights from Western Europe or the US.  I personally hope this doesn't change, because once the West discovers Crimea, it will become like other seaside resort areas and will lose its distinctiveness.  As things stand now, a lot fewer Westerers come here so they haven't been overexposed to the "Ugly American ".  My best guess is that there are probably less than 50 Americans living in Crimea on a permanent basis.  I like being uniqe and not stereotyped.  so guys, if you come here, keep quiet about it back home and keep it our secret for as long as you can.

[Mir]

' I like being uniqe and not stereotyped.  so guys, if you come here, keep quiet about it back home and keep it our secret for as long as you can'

It is the same advice that the American who I met on the plane gave to me.Someone said he must be a sex tourist,I hope that they don't say the same about you

[ScottinCrimea]

I doubt the same would be said about me, since I live here and am not a tourist.  I do get plenty of sex, but all from the same woman, who I am married to, so I guess I am better classified as a sex resident.  I can live with that.

[Mir]

You mean a sexpat?

[Photo Guy]

Mir wrote:
He could be a sex tourist but then:

What is a man who is looking for a wife and goes to FSU,stays 10 days and meets 30 women?
If he has sex with none of them then he is not a sex tourist is he?

That's right.  On the surface, it looks like the man is playing the field
to get his rocks off. It depends on his goal- just a good time, in the form
of sex, or to find a wife. For some, 'Heaven' may be the fun of serial dating.
For others it may be the discovery of that amazing lifetime partner.
Two very different outlooks.

...I'd like to see some trip reports from Bulgaria, Slovakia, Romania,
and maybe even Poland.   ...anyone?

[Muj]

Mir,

As anywhere the smaller locations receive less "press", so this is probably the reason for fewer trip reports.  Also difficulty in transportation is a factor.  My guess Belarus et al is the same as visiting the remoter cities in Russia or UA. 
Why so worried about an endless supply of potential women Mir?
Do you plan to endlessly engage in relationships without commitment?

[Mir]

Muj

Personally I am not too worried.
But there are so many men on this forum who are very worried about finding an FSU woman ASAP and perhaps time is running out.....

'By a route obscure and lonely,
Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named NIGHT,
On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly
From an ultimate dim Thule-
From a wild clime that lieth, sublime,
Out of SPACE- out of TIME.' (Edger Alen Poe)

[Muj]

Mir,

Do you quote the author Edgar ALLAN Poe?

[Mir]

Yes I did

[Muj]

An English variation on his middle name?

[Mir]

No just a typo

[Muj]

Why so non committal ???

[Mir]

Uh I don't get it?

[docetae]

I was reading this thread and I am asking myself what kind of paradize your are talking about ... What are you looking for ? Women who does not know nothing about abroad and who are ready to marry anyone to change their boring life or educated woman who are strong willed, ready to live abroad and who knows what they want without forgetting to care about themself and who value family a lot ?

If you are looking for the 1), this is not Milton you should read but Thomas Moore ...