Happy Birthday Nataly2202!

[jinx13]

 Just wanted you guys to know today is Nataly's B-day, she is 22, on the 22nd of Feb. I was also born on 22 (April) so it's lucky or something  ???

 She feels "very old" today, I'm sure we can all sympathize right?    God, to be 22 again....of course she is disappointed that she hasn't figured out all life's problems yet, but i'm sure she we will, maybe at 23?  Haha, yeah right...I'm still trying to figure it out, and I'm a little bit older 

 Happy Birthday sweetie, I think it's going to be a very good year!

[catzenmouse]

She feels "very old" today, I'm sure we can all sympathize right? 

Happy Birthday Baba Nataly! 

[Mir]

'The old trust everything,the middle aged suspect everything and the young know everything' (Wilde)

Happy birthday Nataly and many happy returns of the day

[prince_alfie]

Happy birthday Nataly, Jinx what do you have planned for her today?

[jinx13]

 Mir,  I notice you quote Oscar Wilde very often, I'm also a big fan of his work, he's probably one of the most quoted persons of all time (whether people know it or not)

 

Happy birthday Nataly, Jinx what do you have planned for her today?

 Well, I'm still working on it, I'll let you know... the original plan was to spend a nice day in San Francisco, but a storm just hit Cali, and she has school in the morning and again tonight.

 Any suggestions? I'm starting to realize I didn't plan very well.

[Mir]

Jinx

Yes for whatever his faults he was perhaps the wittiest writer of all times.

Well flowers and a nice meal cooked by you will do no harm.

[Bruce]

Jinx - you have one lucky birthday for Russians ie. Lenin and you share the same date.  By the way, have a good one with Nataly 22  !

[jinx13]

Jinx - you have one lucky birthday for Russians ie. Lenin and you share the same date.  By the way, have a good one with Nataly 22  !

 Yes Bruce, and Nataly shares a birthday with George Washington, pretty ironic 

 Thanks for the well wishes guys, I'm sure it will be a fun day, I'm going to give it my best.

[Mir]

Bruce

Do you really think Lenin was lucky for Russians?

[prince_alfie]

Mir,  I notice you quote Oscar Wilde very often, I'm also a big fan of his work, he's probably one of the most quoted persons of all time (whether people know it or not)

 

 Well, I'm still working on it, I'll let you know... the original plan was to spend a nice day in San Francisco, but a storm just hit Cali, and she has school in the morning and again tonight.

 Any suggestions? I'm starting to realize I didn't plan very well.

Yes, I suggest http://www.katias.com/ for a nice romantic time with Nataly I plan to be in SF sometime this fall.

I will try the French Laundry restaurant... Thomas Keller the chef is supposedly awesome!

[Bruce]

"Do you really think Lenin was lucky for Russians?" 

Now that is a very complicated question which really can not be answered quickly.  The most important point is that most Russians today think he was a great man over all. 

It just bugs the heck out of me that he ordered everyone he could killed who was related to the royal family.  I know that he wanted to stifle any chance that people would turn back to Czar Nicholas or members of his family if the situation warrented that, but thought of killing all his daughters..........its too much to get into right now. 

Was the time of Lenin better then the rule of Czar Nicholas.  I'd have to say yes for sure if I was an average Russian looking back over time - if I happened to live  .

[Mir]

Bruce

It is not easy to agree with you.
I doubt that the majority of Russians think he was a great man, still he was an special like all world changing leaders are.
Time of Lenin was a time of brutal civil war in Russia between the red and white guards that killed thousand if not millions of Russians.The revolution led by Lenin brought to power the Bolsheviks and soon he unleashed the red terror and I quote:
Following the assassination attempt on Lenin, and the successful assassination of Petrograd chief of secret police Moisei Uritsky, Stalin, in a telegram to Lenin, argued that a policy of "open and systematic mass terror" be instigated against "those responsible". Lenin and the other Bolsheviks agreed, and instructed Felix Dzerzhinsky, whom Lenin had appointed to head the Cheka in 1917, to commence a "Red Terror", which was officially announced to the public on September 1, 1918, by the Bolshevik newspaper, Krasnaya Gazeta.[2] Scholars estimate that between 1918-21 up to 200,000 were executed. This was during the Civil War when excesses were carried out by both Reds and Whites, and Lenin's regime was in deadly peril from the latter [3][4].

According to the Black Book of Communism, in May 1919, there were 16,000 people in labor camps based on the old Tsarist katorga labor camps, and in September 1921 there were more than 70,000.[17] This system was later transformed into the Gulags.

Lenin's Hanging Order documents that Lenin himself ordered terror[5]: The text is as follows:

Send to Penza To Comrades Kuraev, Send to Penza To Comrades Kuraev, Bosh, Minkin and other Penza communists Comrades! The revolt by the five kulak volost's must be suppressed without mercy. The interest of the entire revolution demands this, because we have now before us our final decisive battle "with the kulaks." We need to set an example. 1) You need to hang (hang without fail, so that the public sees) at least 100 notorious kulaks, the rich, and the bloodsuckers. 2) Publish their names. 3) Take away all of their grain. 4) Execute the hostages - in accordance with yesterday's telegram. This needs to be accomplished in such a way, that people for hundreds of miles around will see, tremble, know and scream out: let's choke and strangle those blood-sucking kulaks. Telegraph us acknowledging receipt and execution of this. Yours, Lenin P.S. Use your toughest people for this.

According to Orlando Figes, Lenin had always been an advocate of "mass terror against enemies of the revolution" and was open about his view that the proletarian state was a system of organized violence against the capitalist establishment. Figes also claims that the terror, while encouraged by the Bolsheviks, had its roots in a popular anger against the privileged.[18] When in late 1918 Kamenev and Bukharin tried to curb the "excesses" of the Cheka, it was Lenin who defended it.[19]

And this was used by Stalin who succeeded Lenin (Lenin was in power only 7 yeas) to kill millions.
Was the time of Lenin better then Czar Nicholas for average Russian? Maybe for a few but by and large no.
In fact I think what Lenin brought in caused more misery to Russia then she would have suffered without the revolution.
Yes Lenin did many cruel things,the murder of Czar's family including his daughters and son was only the tip of this ice-burg.

[Elen]

Fine topic you find for a thread with greeting 22 years old girl with birthday I'd say 
 but any way

Nikolay gained a nick name BLOODY( Кровавый)  Nickolay  ( and that nick name was not  a product of Lenin;s supporters at all) That Bloody Nikolay was that very pitiful figura in Ruussian histoiry whose anability to rule such huge and complicate country like Russia leaded to all those events Russia had to come through during 20century ( including 3 revolutions mind you but not only one October revolution leaded by Lenin)

As for Lenein's crimes, terror and etc then as you used to "exam" them only from one side of fence you never could get why Russian think that way about that figure

Enjoy with your cartoons about princes Anastasya , Americans That's enough Russian history for you I guess

[Mir]

Elen

I don't know what your point is.
Anyway no one should believe that the Czars were Mother Tressa.
My point is that the revolution did not make the life of ordinary Russians better and cause immense misery,death and suffering.
No doubt it was 'A people's tragedy'

[Elen]

Elen

I don't know what your point is.
Anyway no one should believe that the Czars were Mother Tressa.
My point is that the revolution did not make the life of ordinary Russians better and cause immense misery,death and suffering.
No doubt it was 'A people's tragedy'

 My point is that sources you get information about revolution's crimes are always one sided

 My point is that people who lived in those times, who fought and managed to WIN that fight for ideas of that revolution somehow were sure it was better for them ( or how else they managed to do that if the whole world were against them? )

 My point is that better you drop your guessing about what's were better for those people . Russian people really possess a huge patient and it really should be BAD life that they raised in revolt at least

 My point is that previous life and ruling of that very Nikolay leaded to that "misery,death and suffering" and there was no other way from that suffering except revolution ( BTW If  foreigners who took advantaches of that times and tried to occupied Russia staid home instead of such help to "suffering" from revolution Russians those Russians had MUCH less  of that ""misery,death and suffering"

 My point is that such figure like czar could not be judged just like some "family man" If you wish to find some kids to cry about then there were PLENTY of them who died because of that very czar who had some other responsibilities except to be a father to his own daughters.

[Mir]

So you deny all the crimes of Stalin?

[Elen]

No.
I just admit crimes of contr- revolution as well. And I think that Stalin's crimes should be discussed only in context what other ways he had to act. He had but not always. To judge him from position of present days without taking into consideraton what's going on at side which was fighting against Stalin is in vain.

Also a discussion about numbers of his crimes - the "hard" argument in such dicussions - is in vain as well Because no one side could prove those numbers now with 100% accurate.

[jinx13]

 Interesting discussion, and I like hearing Elen's point of view, don't worry about messing up my birthday wish thread, it's ok by me.

 Just so you know, Nataly's birthday was nice, but not all I wanted it to be, it was a working/school day so we were limited to what we could do.  We had a very nice lunch at our favorite Mediterranean restaurant, where she met a polish girl, and they had a nice conversation.

 Later we just watched a movie at home, and she blew out candles on her chocolate cake, and we drank some wine. Yeah, she got presents too! It was a nice night, but I promised to take her to San Francisco on Sunday, hopefully the weather will cooperate.

 This is my first "moderated" message, so this is jinx the crmimal speaking, I'm sure all of you have noticed my many crimes around here, so I will just wear this ball and chain awhile I guess...or maybe just leave this forum...I have to say today was a wake up call for me....I'll leave it at that for fear of being "moderated"  some more.

[Kuna]

Chin up jinx... you could be in "the chair"... or married to an AW!   

[Mir]

Jinx

As we have had the discusion that there is no such thing as an absolute truth,so you may be regarded as a criminal (or even a suspect) by some but you may be a hero to others.

I totally agree that history is never accurate but if there are two evils fighting each other then it is important to condemn both. I don't accept that one evil justifies the existence of a bigger evil.

As for justifications for ones crimes,well even pedophiles and perverts have justification for their crimes.They claim they have urges that they cannot control and infact many of them consider themselves as victims since they argue that they did not want to be that way!

[wxman]

During the time of the 1917 revolution, the majority of the world lived in poverty and repression, including the US and Russia. I don't know who invented it, but 90 years later, it still seems to be quite prevelant around the world.

[Jack]

Couple of observations.

Lenin was not a great Stalin lover and in fact I'm sure Elen knows  (hello sweet Elen)   that on Lenin's deathbed he advised those around him to ...watch out for Stalin... or ....be careful of Stalin... something to that effect.   Lenin did not trust Stalin.

To Mir and Bruce, today in Russia (not Georgia of course) many Russians speak good of Lenin. Yes, I was a little surprised at first years ago to see this but I see it often even today. And I see almost no Russians one who have anything good to say of Stalin.  I see Stalin statues coming down, but not Lenin statues.

[jinx13]

Kuna,

 I have already been married to an AW, so I already know that torture    My chin is up, but I have to say I think this was highly uncalled for, it ruined about one hour of my day    but i'm better now, thanks to all you have offered their support.

 Mir, now you're going to start quoting from the ballad of Reading Gaol right? ok i'll beat you to it.

 I never saw a man who looked
  With such a wistful eye
Upon that little tent of blue
  Which prisoners call the sky,
And at every drifting cloud that went
  With sails of silver by.

I walked, with other souls in pain,
  Within another ring,
And was wondering if the man had done
  A great or little thing,
When a voice behind me whispered low,
  "That fellows got to swing."

 Oscar Wilde -portion of Ballad of Reading Gaol (Jail)

[Mir]

Jack

In many ways I also admire Lenin.
He had charisma, passion and a great ability to explain complicated things in very simple terms.
But we cannot deny that he unleashed the Red Terror and created the Cheka.
The problem is that people feel that terror can solve the problems. They feel that such tactics are justifiable but what they don’t realize that once you let it out of the bag it does not remain in your control for long.
No doubt Lenin did not like Stalin but he created (knowingly or unknowingly can be argued) the environment that enabled Stalin to flourish and also created the tools that helped him (Stalin) take so many innocent lives.
I would recommend reading Orlando Figes’s thoroughly researched and referenced book ‘Russian revolution, a people’s tragedy’

[Mir]

Jinx

Yet each man kills the thing he loves
  By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
  Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
  The brave man with a sword!

Some kill their love when they are young,
  And some when they are old;
Some strangle with the hands of Lust,
  Some with the hands of Gold:
The kindest use a knife, because
  The dead so soon grow cold.
(Ballad of Reading Gaol)