Overcoming the language barrier

[TwoBitBandit]

U minya nyet rubel.

Oh, please!  You're butchering this poor language.  In Russian, when you want to say you don't have something, you must use the genitive case.

У меня есть рубль. (I have a rouble.)
У меня есть рубли. (I have roubles.)

but:

У меня нет рубля. (I don't have a rouble.  рубль is in the gеnitive singular case.)
У меня нет рублей. (I have any roubles.  рубль is in the genitive plural case.)

Poor Alexander Pushkin is rolling around in his grave at your butchery of his poetic language.   

[I/O]

Poor Alexander Pushkin is rolling around in his grave at your butchery of his poetic language.   

Rolling...???  He has been spinning so fast he has become dizzy ever since I started with Russian.   

I/O

[ScottinCrimea]

     I started with Pimsleur after my first trip and got halfway through the second set before going back and reviewing again.  It was excellent for basic beginners but the first time through I didn't notice differences in sounds like I did later.  The Rosetta program was tough becuase it provides no basics, just throughs pictures and words at you.  Fine for vocabulary building later on but not for beginners.  I got up to about Unit 8 before getting bored with it.  I'll probably go back to it now and see how it feels.  A problem here in Ukraine with learning from TV is that thing have to be translated into Ukrainian so they are either speaking in Ukrainian or the subtitles are in Ukrainian.
     ONe of the best things to help me learn Russian is teaching English because I have to clarify differences in the languages and find commonalities.

[Sort]

I found a web page that have a course in russian language.
I will try and learn as much as i can before my next tripp.
Me and a friend will go to Kiev in June, so i have some time to learn..... :selfharm:

http://www.princeton.edu/russian/

[DKMM]

Good find there Sort.  Fits well within the budget!

[Daveman]

While I do not have the experience of many here, I can honestly say that during my two week visit to Omsk, the language barrier was VERY real, and very much a difficulty to be overcome.  While on the surface, I can easily come across as the class clown or village idiot, my true nature is more of an intellectual "seeker", always analyzing and pondering the 'why' and 'how' of *everything* in life.   

She speaks basic English; I speak basic Russian.  My vocabulary is about 1000 (maybe more) words in Russian, hers is about the same or a little less in English, but neither of us has mastered the basic grammar of the other.  I can communicate in Russian, but my sentences are terrible.  Could we communicate? yes, with patience.  Can we discuss, for example, how should we best discipline our future child?  Not even close.  I can tell her I love the way she makes borsht and how delicious it is, but I cannot even begin to explain to her my thoughts, or understand hers, on econoomics, philosophy, politics, religion, history, science, astronomy, medical care, relationships, child rearing, love, etc.  How can we possibly find a compromise to even a most basic disagreement when we cannot even begin to convey thoughts and feelings of why we are in disagreement in the first place?

Geez, the absolute life's blood of any relationship is communication.  Without it, there is no understanding, there is no compromise, there is no stimulation, there is no bonding together to overcome LIFE's challenges (those which married couples inevitably face together, not the challenges of of the relationship itself).  Is it impossible? No, but neither is winning the lottery. 

It is my firm belief that one must approach this much like a business.  As men, and mostly successful men, we do not throw caution to the wind when we create or expand our business.  We take steps to minimize risk and maximize gain.  If we will take great steps to research, learn, investigate trends, partners and rivals, educate ourselves to become masters of a field PRIOR to making a commitment in our business dealings, why does anyone even question the necessity to make this same kind of commitment to minimizing risk PRIOR to entering into the most important contract of our lives?

When in Omsk, I tried to put myself in her situation as she would be if arriving in America. I had a total of 3.5 months living where Russian is the native tongue, which is longer than the time to decide marriage after she arrives in America on a K-1. My communication in Russian was adequate in some simple situations, but rather dismal overall.  Matching the cases, though I completely understand the process, is more difficult when trying to create sentences from the top of your head to communicate, not with your patient and loving girl, but the clerk at the local "magazine", the driver of the bus to ask where to transfer- even the most simple of tasks become a major undertaking in patience and concentration.  Of course, for two weeks, it is a fun challenge, but for a lifetime away from home? That would be truly mentally and emotionally daunting and exhausting for me for many months if not years.  I can only imagine how it would be for her coming to America where there are so many varying dialects, conversational slang, et al.  It would be a tremendous stress on the very fabric of the relationship because she will be mentally exhausted from being overwhelmed most of the time.

I am not saying it cannot be done, but, I fully agree with those who espouse the absolute necessity of making common spoken language the top priority *prior* to marriage.  It's the very basis of everything else.  I think it is the number one way to minimize the risk of failure.

I certainly do not want to wake up eight months later and find beside me a woman I never really even knew to begin with, and now don't even like much less love, and probably her feelings being exactly the same.  You must know your partner prior to the contract. This absolutely begins with the language. You can love an incompatible woman, and love certainly won't rectify the problems this will cause long term.

Minimize that risk of failure, in every way possible.

Dave

[ScottinCrimea]

Dave,
    I've known my wife for 4 years, lived in Ukraine for 2 years, and I see nothing in your post that I can disagree with.  I know firsthand how mentally exhausting it can be to live in an environment 24 hours a day longterm where not only the language skills are limited, but also your basic understandings of how things work from washing machines to the legal system have to be torn down and rebuilt.  It's not just about her having to learn the language, it's about her having to learn a whole new manner of living and functioning in the world around her.  It takes a strong, committed woman and a very patient, understanding man.

[I/O]

Dave:  Pretty impressive post.  Similar to Scott I concur entirely.  You probably have more Russian than I do, but I will grant my fiance', she has caught onto English rather quickly and we can now discuss, quite freely those subjects you mention.  BUT it has taken one helluva lot of work to get to that stage. 

Just the few difficulties you mention are but the tip of the iceburg when being in another country and having been around quite a number of FSU locations, I would add that Omsk is one of the easier places to operate within.  But it ain't easy if you don't have the communication skills.  It'll be a whole helluva lot harder for her taken way out of her comfort zone with limited language.  It is just too obvious that she will need to be able to communicate with you naturally if there is any hope of survival. 

If anyone wants a test of how hard it is, learn your basic Russian as I have and then sit and watch a couple of movies in Russian.  Tell me then if you are not exhausted at the end, if you haven't long before lost concentration.  Imagine doing that all day everyday and you'll have a small taste of what it might be like for her in your country.

Take this language/communication thing cheaply at your own peril.  It IS number one...!!!

I/O

[Markus]

I only read the question and skipped all the rest.

The 1st time I called my "now" wife on the phone, who said she spoke a little English, we had in common two words; sms and my name. Now, did I run like a little puppy, knowing that some folks here advocated no English from the lady is a bad thing? No. Actually this board wasn't here but the other one. I used an interpretor for a while then I jumped on a plane and went and met her. Now, I would be remiss in not stating that I proposed during the 1st week of being with her; hence, my name on this board. How can that work with a lady who doesn't speak much English? Is it possible?

I was told 3 years back that I should get a couple of years under my belt then I can express my opinion. Well, I expressed my opinion then, stuck to it like President Bush, never wavered from my goal, and now, over 3 years later, I'm still here with more                                            than the couple of years I was recommended.  And yes, I'm still waiting for my historical critics to admit they were wrong. Mr. Bush and I have consistency in common.

Why should a man worry about the level of English his lady speaks?  If he does, he could be missing out on a wonderful lady. If I based my actions on the biased opinions of some men about how well a lady speaks English, then I would have ignored my current wife and tried somewhere else. What a loss that would have been to me if I believed the opinions of some lazy men. I use the word lazy because doing what I did takes effort. If you're mentally lazy, then don't seek a lady who can't speak English.
Then again, if you're mentally lazy, you should be sitting in the local bar hoping the female bartender wants you. This process is not for lazy men.

I used an electronic interpretor to communicate with my lady when I first met her. Is there any romance in that? Try it and learn for yourself. Have you ever tried to communicate with someone you wanted to be with when they didn't speak English? What a challenge and a romantic time. Those who have never tried will criticize and those that have tried and failed will criticize and blame the failure on lack of English.  I continued with the human interpretor for a while then decided we need to communicate without him. My lady began some English classes in Russia. I was actually in her 1st class on the 1st day and was asked to speak to the new students. She has subsequently taken 3 semesters of English at a college in the USA and will continue soon. She got a little burned out on the 3 semesters or maybe I did.

Let me jump ahead 3 years later after I have been married. Are there things that my wife says that I don't understand? Yes, and I have a rule; If I can't figure what she's saying on 3 tries, that's it. But, there are so many funny things that shes says, and I normally don't  laugh. But, occasionally, laughing is irresistible. If I met you with my wife, there would be no problem with communication from my wife. She has learned so much as has studied very much.

I proposed during the 1st visit, she didn't speak much English, and I have a wonderful lady. Could the couple of years of coming back to give advice, based upon those couple of years plus 1 still not convince the advice givers that some men do what they think is right regardless of opinions and it works?  Be careful in taking to heart what some folks say.

The One Week Wonder Who Married A Lady Who Didn't Speak Much English.

Mark


                               

[Vaughn]

Mark, I strongly suspect that you and your wife were exceptional; that is, in
having the wherewithal to overcome that which is the death knell for most
couples who have no common language. Of course it's possible, but I think
uncommon. My wife spoke zero English, well maybe hello, goodbye, please,
that sort of thing - but I had knowledge of her language. So we trudged
through on my broken Russian, which I continued to study during our
18 month courtship. You, on the other hand, used electronic translators,
occasional interpreters, and I'll bet dictionaries as well - not all people
are capable (or resourceful enough) of dealing with language barrier; it's
just too easy (and convenient) to stick with English speakers - which, I
happen to agree with - limits their choices from the outset.

Why should a man worry about the level of English his lady speaks?

 There's a fair to good chance the topics of children, employment, future environment,
and family relations will never be adequately addressed. As you and your wife have probably experienced, each time you "broke through" the barrier and fully understood
a concept conveyed by one to the other, it was a breakthrough indeed - and likely a bonding one at that. Those moments were very special for us, especially in the midst
of deep discussion. If a guy hasn't got the desire to invest of himself (and I believe
the majority do not) then it better be the lady to start expressing herself in his language
if the train's to keep rolling. I'd say you did what had to be done - and for that you get not criticism by me, but applause.

Vaughn

[KenC]

Mark,
You "broke the rules" in many different ways with your relationship and still came out successful.  You are proof that there are no rules that matter except maybe the integrity of the two people involved.  Congrats and I wish you two all the best for your future together.
KenC     

[Gator]

Mark,

I think every man in this endeavor is stretching beyond his normal reach.   Some stretch a little farther than others.  You are making it work, which says much about you and your lady.

Thank you for dropping by.  Please visit more frequently as I do enjoy reading your posts.

I am also attempting to accomplish this with someone who speaks beginner’s English.  So far, so good, so I agree with the core of what you said.  If we had become engaged the first week, she would be living here now, which I believe would be great.  However, I never would have the confidence or courage or abandonment to do that.  That is me and you are you. 

And you succeeded. Congratulations. 

[Daveman]

Mark, I also have to say congratulations.  This way worked for you.  You obviously both found a partner with the same goals, dreams, intellectual drive, attraction, whatever your personal criteria may be.

I think it's fantastic, but I also think maybe you are the exception to the rule? simply because you did not know these things prior to the proposal, right?  Or were you able to communicate well enough through the human and electronic translators to discover you had these same goals?  This is a serious question.  How did you know these things prior to marriage?  Did you *feel* it? Did you think maybe you were lucky? If you were able to communicate so successfully, how did you know she was being honest? 

I'm curious to hear more details of your success because there are many of us here in a similar situation.

Again, glad it worked.. sincerely.

Dave

[catzenmouse]

There has never been a question as to "Can it work?" Of course it can. Can you win the lottery every year if you only buy one ticket? Of course you can.

The devil is in the details here.

That boils down to "Is it the smart way to go about this?" and "Should you plan on making it happen AND be successful with very limited time and very limited language?"

Anyone with a clue would say no it is not the smart way to go about this. I totally applaud Mark and his lady as they have beaten the odds and come out of Vegas with the big prize. It takes a LOT of WORK AND DEDICATION by BOTH of them to make it to this point. Not everyone, or even most, would be willing to put that much extra effort into it.

Therein lies the difference.

What are YOU willing to do to find your life partner? What are you willing to give up? What are you willing to fight for? May seem like simple questions but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of it many will fall short of being willing to do everything that it takes to make it work.

FWIW,
 Ken

[Daveman]

Absolutely, Ken

I think the most dominant factor in this situation where the woman speaks little or no English (or other language necessary) is *her* absolute dedication to the relationship, the process of assimilation, etc.  Of course it is work for both... however...

Without the language, she would have to be very, very dedicated to function daily, to persevere in the face of loneliness, solitude, possible discrimination - simply because she can't communicate.  Others have mentioned feelings of resentment, despair, feeling like her husband is her 'jailer'.  I can understand completely why some women just can't take it and decide to return 'home'.  The better she is equipped before she arrives, the greater *her* chance to have the attitude and the strength to endure.  I think that's my main concern.

Dave

[ScottinCrimea]

Coming from the other side, I can attest to the loneliness, sense of isolation and frustration that is involved with moving to a country where you don't speak the language well or at all.  I can't even imagine how rough it would have been if my wife didn't speak English.  I think Mark's wife is the one who deserves most of the kudos here and he should be very grateful that he found a woman who had what it takes to stick it out.

[Vaughn]

I can't even imagine how rough it would have been if my wife didn't speak English.  I think Mark's wife is the one who deserves most of the kudos here and he should be very grateful that he found a woman who had what it takes to stick it out.

Strongly agree with Scott, she's a shining example of steadfastness. I recall the first few
months when my own wife found herself in true alien status - little language, yet unfamiliar with custom and currency, unable to work, not ever having operated a vehicle. When she
ran out of busy work at the house, she'd walk a few miles to the mall and shop - these early ventures outside and alone gave her confidence. In our case, our daughter's presence helped ease the transition - and to be honest, I'm not sure Elvira would have survived the first few months without her. I sorely underestimated the challenge of maintaining a fulltime job, while teaching at home, chauffeuring, fielding calls she couldn't yet handle. It's one thing to prepare yourself mentally for impending transition sans English, but the reality of it is the guy's gonna have to forego some sleep to pull it off effectively. And all the time as USCIS drags its heels, she might question her man's capabilities with "are you SURE you filled out those forms correctly? Are you certain you even MAILED them? What's taking so long? Elena has her welcome letter, where's mine? When can I drive?" Trust issues can crop up. I got a phone call from a close friend one night: "Get THIS: she wants to accompany me to the Post Office, watch me buy the Money Order!" Welcome to the world of FSU lady transition.....  a good time to stay in touch with others who've been down the boulevard, not to hide away. Sensitive? Beware on a daily basis.

And so Mark DOES deserve a hearty Congrats, as does his brave wife!

No rest for the weary, and no room for weariness.....

[jb]

Mark,

I remember you from the other board,,, and I was one of those critics.  Not of your wife, but of your tactics.  The fact that you've perservered speaks volumes about the work and dedication the two of you have put into your marriage. 

I salute you.

[Photo Guy]

Mark,
I agree with Vaughn that you and your lady are exceptions, but I
have to point out that 'exceptions' are commonplace.
I find your romantic story to be a great example of
what is possible - what can be achieved with the
right mindset. Where the is a will, there is a way.

One could even say that exceptionally successful individuals are the
exceptions. Had those people looked at the obstacles
and decided to NOT face the challenges, they would
have remained static, unadventurous, unsuccessful.

Small businesses that succeed are the 'exception'.
Amazing inventions are the 'exception'.

That woman of your dreams is probably the 'exception'.

Those individuals who can't handle challenges should
stay at home. It a guy wants the 'sure thing', don't
venture out into the world. Stay at home and maintain
your comfort level.

Living life to the fullest requires taking risks.

[KenC]

Yep, keep dreaming and jousting at windmills and YOU TOO can be alone like Photo!
KenC

[Daveman]

Hey Photo guy,
You a photographer?  If so, we have that in common. Though I'm more of a well advanced hobbyist than a pro. 

Anyway, I agree with the essence of your post here.. to be successful, you have to face down the challenges...  here are a few contradicting thoughts, and maybe you can throw some light in there..  This post really isn't directed at you, but more at the "guests", or people just going on their first meeting.. whatever...

Feel free to trash my logic here as much as you want.  I would *love* to start bringing my girl over here now... so help me understand how to go about it and I'll be more than orgasmically, ecstatically, mind numbingly happy...

Had those people looked at the obstacles
and decided to NOT face the challenges, they would
have remained static, unadventurous, unsuccessful.

Small businesses that succeed are the 'exception'.
Amazing inventions are the 'exception'.

In a small business, does one simply throw one's self into it without doing extensive research?  Doesn't one get to know the business, pitfalls, strengths and weaknesses of competition and partners, trends and fluctuations in and of the market? Design a plan and implement the plan?

Success is the product (not the sum IMO) of  hours of investigation/research * hours of planning * hours of focused action * hours of result analysis * hours of re-planning * hours of focused action ad freakin' infinitum.


I agree completely with the "you gotta do it" mentality. But, you gotta know what you are doing before you do it.  Those 'exceptions' of One Trip Shotgun marriages are simply blind unadulterated luck followed by hard work.  Luck, while wonderful to have, is not a dependable ally.  I think if 100 guys took the exact path Mark took, i.e. proposal within the first week, married very soon thereafter, that at least 80 of them would be in divorce.  (This is NOT a slam at you or your marriage, Mark)

That's why I was asking specific questions about his situation. What's different about it?  How did he KNOW they are compatible and focused in the same direction?  They worked hard, yes, but all the hard work in the world won't help Vinegar marry Oil.

Those individuals who can't handle challenges should
stay at home. It a guy wants the 'sure thing', don't
venture out into the world. Stay at home and maintain
your comfort level.

Living life to the fullest requires taking risks.

Yes, but not stupid risks.  Okay, You are standing on the brink of a great canyon.. there is an old rickety bridge going across.  Your joy and happiness is on the other side,  do you just go for it?  do you run madly across the bridge with drool raining from your lips? do you tell her to "come on across the old rickety bridge, baby, we gotta GO for it?"  Or maybe, do you take the time to check, and check again, repair, reinforce where necessary, blah blah....

Okay how about this... you meet, bring her here, get married.. and then two months later you realize she has the most vicious and violent temper you have ever seen...  People with bad characteristics like this can hide them from you for a while before their 'best behavior' diminishes and evil incarnate comes spewing forth.  Or maybe she's a Green Card Girl who tells you everything she's been told to tell you through the Electronic Translator to make you think she's your dream girl... Perhaps more time and a common language could have given some warning signs? or at least those gut feelings we often get (but unfortunately just as often ignore).

Anyone who jumps into a situation without understanding the reality is well, in for a "you get what you get" situation.

I certainly wouldn't agree that an exception like this is commonplace.  The statistics paint an all too different picture.  And that's the point.  Probably one of those "Guest" users anonymously reading this thread might see an example of success, and without understanding the entire situation, and how *uncommon* successes of "One Trip Wonders" actually are much less "One Trip Wonders Where I Don't Know What The Hell She's Saying" ... this guest may start thinking "Wow, she's hot, she's sweet, she's great in the sack.. yeah, i gotta just GO for it.. that bad shit ain't gonna happen to me, cuz I know what I'm doin!! I just feel it's right!!" (guest reader, if that's you.. go now to the bathroom, gaze into the mirror... that handsome person you see before you is a blithering idiot...)

I think exceptions are 'commonplace' because we hear about them more often than we do the other thousand who are too humiliated to come out and say "I was a freakin' fool".

I've had two failures (with ladies who spoke English well). Perhaps that was MY fault. But, I sure am glad they failed with her over there rather than over here. 

Dave






 

[catzenmouse]

Dave,

 Well said!  You got you some book lernin' don't ya?

this guest may start thinking "Wow, she's hot, she's sweet, she's great in the sack.. yeah, i gotta just GO for it.. that bad *snip* ain't gonna happen to me, cuz I know what I'm doin!! I just feel it's right!!" (guest reader, if that's you.. go now to the bathroom, gaze into the mirror... that handsome person you see before you is a blithering idiot...)

That was priceless!

Ken

[KenC]

Now this ought to be interesting.
KenC

[WmGO]

KenC nailed it that when it is all said and done
it comes down to the integrity of two people. I
would add sincerity and commitment (although
I don't recommend the Mark Route b/c it is simply
too difficult to determine integrity, sincerity and
commitment level in one meeting esecially one with
a language barrier).

Bravo to Mark for beating the odds.

Reminds me of the guy from one of the northern States that went to Azerbaijan
or some place like that (one of the Stans) had a one visit
plan go south, met a waitress in a restaurant, hit it off despite her speaking virtually no English, met her family and hit it off, proposed, she accepted, brought her to States on k-1 and apparently lived happily ever after.....he broke every common sense rule in the book and came out a winner.......

[jb]

Reminds me of the guy from one of the northern States that went to Azerbaijan
or some place like that (one of the Stans) had a one visit
plan go south, met a waitress in a restaurant, hit it off despite her speaking virtually no English, met her family and hit it off, proposed, she accepted, brought her to States on k-1 and apparently lived happily ever after.....he broke every common sense rule in the book and came out a winner.......

One in a million....